Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

Status
Not open for further replies.
On the surface, the comparison between Keldeo and Infernape is a good one- they're sitting on the same speed, they have similar mixed wallbreaking potential, and deal with a lot of the same counters and checks. On the other hand, this unfairly downplays Keldeo's primary function for many teams- an offensive check to a number of dangerous sweepers and other major metagame threats. Not only can Keldeo's Specs set outspeed and OHKO top tier threats like Landorus, Garchomp, Thundurus, Bisharp, Mega Charizard, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp and others, it also has the bulk to often survive neutral hits in 1v1 situations even when it gets outsped. These situations are where Infernape tends to fail miserably at in comparison:

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 291-343 (99.3 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 298-352 (101.7 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 338-398 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 337-398 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 277-328 (85.7 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

There's a whole lot more examples than this, but those extra base stats pretty much speak for themselves. Even outside of 1v1 situations, just being able to switch into a lot of a common attacks such as Landorus' Earth Power or a random Draco Meteor from just about any Dragon type without immediately getting KOd can help shift momentum and counter threats in ways Infernape can't hope to match. It's arguable whether or not Fire/Fighting or Water/Fighting makes better offensive typing (they both have a number of Pokemon that they each have an easier or harder time with), but I will say that Ground-type moves are so common these days that Infernape is constantly at risk switching into Pokemon like Heatran or Tyranitar that its supposed to checking. Sure, Keldeo gets a Electric and Grass type weakness that Infernape doesn't have to deal with, but those coverage types are so much less common that switching into many bulky attackers is rarely an issue.

I will say that Infernape tends to be just as threatening as Keldeo in a wallbreaking capacity, and Overheat + Close Combat is just as deadly as Secret Sword + Hydro Pump in blasting through the Chansey/Skarm based defensive cores that you mentioned above. If there was no Keldeo I think this capacity alone would warrant putting much higher in the viability rankings, but since it's so overwhelmingly outclassed as an offensive check I don't this is enough to justify raising it's rank.

If you can show me some specific instances where Infernape would be more useful as an offensive check than Keldeo I'd be more inclined to accept your argument.
Though I agree with your point for the most part, the Gallade calc is flawed. You are using normal Gallade to calc the damage to both Pokemon, when it should be Mega. M-Gallade does certainly OHKO them both without a doubt.
Infernape has its niche in several spots in the meta, which I think does indeed warrant a rise, even thought Keldeo does indeed do its mixed wall breaking job better.
 
Though I agree with your point for the most part, the Gallade calc is flawed. You are using normal Gallade to calc the damage to both Pokemon, when it should be Mega. M-Gallade does certainly OHKO them both without a doubt.
Infernape has its niche in several spots in the meta, which I think does indeed warrant a rise, even thought Keldeo does indeed do its mixed wall breaking job better.
Well, I don't think anyone was trying to say that Infernape is better in general than Keldeo, lol. And if they were, then they are seriously overestimating Infernape. Infernape's effective in its roles as a Wallbreaker, and the fact that it does poorly against many things in offense is why it's still not likely to move up past B-, compared to Keldeo's S-rank.

Yes, I'm completely on the side of Infernape moving up now, though I still think some of my previous arguments do need to be taken into account regarding specifically the NP set. But other sets, like Rocks, and MixApe are much better in my opinion, and should be the major reason it moves up.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Personally, I don't think Raikou really fits in A, A- seems perfect for it honestly. I always see it as a Pokemon which is all-around very solid but always seems to lack something to make it truly stand out. Pretty much all of its set have flaws to the point where none of them are really worthy of A.
Specs is generally considered the best set, and I think it's pretty easy to see how being locked into Volt Switch or Thunderbolt can be a problem when bulky Grounds like Hippowdon and Garchomp are this common, as well as Landorus which is not something you want to give a free turn to. HP Ice is also a pretty poor move to lock yourself into because of its poor BP leaving a lot of sweepers like Volcarona, Bisharp and Gyarados to use it as an opportunity to set up. Specs Raikou is neat but relies a lot on prediction from the user's part.
AV is a decent set, but really lacks in firepower. To give you an idea, it fails to OHKO offensive Garchomp and can even fail to OHKO Landorus from full. This makes it pretty poor against bulkier teams.
On the other hand, you have CM which helps a lot against fatter teams and which I honestly find better than AV, but struggles to pull its weight against offense since it lacks both firepower and the ability to eat up powerful special moves (though evading Bisharp is pretty nice).
LO sets are viable, but Raikou really does not like getting worn down and is generally much better at abusing Volt Switch to wear down its checks (which it can't really do with a Life Orb equipped) than sitting there and spamming attacks like Thundurus does, mainly due to its poor coverage
And then you have Zap Plate, which is actually pretty good, but suffers the same problem as AV : lack of power and inability to do much against bulkier teams.

And yes, you can argue that its versatility and the combination of its sets merits A rank, but it's still pretty limited in terms of what it can beat even with its multiple sets. Sure, there are a few things Sub CM Raikou can break past which it otherwise struggles against like Hetaran and Clefable, but there are still a bunch of common things it'll have trouble with no matter what. Hippowdon only really fears Specs HP Ice, Ferro can handle even Sub CM sets well (though it does run out of Gyro Ball PP in the process if it's not running Power Whip). XZard beats it, Altaria is a great check, Excadrill destroys it, MLatias walls it, TTar can chip half its health off by trapping it, Kyu-B beats it, Mamoswine beats it. There's just a lot of stuff it has to contend with and is both easier to handle and provides weaker support than the likes of Starmie, Tornadus-T and yes, MManectric.

Speaking of Raikou vs Mega Manectric, I really don't think it's quite as good as it even when you take into account the opportunity cost. MMan's advantages over Raikou are pretty significant and anyone who has used both Pokemon knows this.
Firstly, its speed enables it to outspeed a bunch more threats, not only Talonflame (which is a pretty massive deal, let's be honest) but also Tornadus-T, Scarf TTar, Adamant MDos at +1, Adamant MAltaria at +1 (though only relevant if it's weakened) tying with Lopunny, and being guaranteed to outpace Starmie.
It also has a much more useful ability which enables it to switch in on a good number of Pokemon. It's often said that Raikou is a specially defensive MManectric. But Raikou actually gets far fewer opportunities to make use of its special bulk, because many special attackers are either able to attack it physically (Latios, Keldeo, MDiancie, Starmie MGardevoir, Thundurus sometimes) or beat it anyway (MAltaria, MVenusaur, Dragalge, Volcarona for the most part) So you're left with Water types like Manaphy and Tenatcruel which MMan handles quite decently regardless, alongside stuff like MMetagross, Talonflame, Azumarill, Scizor, and Gyarados which it checks significantly better than Raikou does.
Manectric also has access to much better coverage than Raikou. While Shadow Ball and ESens are okay for Latis and Venusaur, HP Ice hits the former quite had already, and the latter is worn down by repeated Volt Switches especially when paired with entry hazard damage. And Raikou would dream of being able to hit Ferrothorn, Scizor, Excadrill and Metagross much harder.

But most of all, unlike Raikou, it doesn't have to make compromises. MMan already comes with solid power, no choice lock, and no recoil. It's not versatile at all, but it doesn't need to be, it already almost does more for a team in one set than Raikou is able to with all its sets combined. MMan is overall less constricting and more convenient to use than Raikou, to the point where, even when considering the cost of mega slot, it deserves to be one rank above it imo.


To add to the Infernape discussion, the set I've been using is SD, Close Combat, Flare Blitz and Gunk Shot paired with Scarf TTar. If you have a way to handle Slowbro and Hippowdon, it's actually pretty effective, Infernape's typing lets it set up more easily than you'd expect. I've also tried the same set but with Grass Knot over Gunk Shot which swaps Slowbro and Hippowdon with Altaria and Dragonite as checks. Needless to say, there's a huge amount of freedom in what Infernape can run. Nothing stops you, for instance, from running Close Combat+Grass Knot+Gunk Shot+SD : after all, you're hitting most of the tier with that, luring both fat waters and fairies, and giving it the ability to sweep lategame all at once. B- doesn't seem like overselling this thing at all : it's wonderfully versatile and has a lot of untapped potential.


Chomp was denied a move up to A+ recently but if there's a time when it deserves to move up, it's now. Chomp's ability to emergency check most physical attackers is a fantastic buffer for a lot of teams, especially given the huge number of teams right now that rely mainly on chip damage and how much Garchomp contributes to that. And sure, it can get overwhelmed by physical spam cores, but it's still putting a huge dent in them and shouldn't really be expected to take on the entire physical side of a team on its own, every defensive Pokemon is prone to that and at least Garchomp forces the opposing Pokemon to go down in the process. And that's ignoring other good sets such as Lum Berry SD, Scarf, and Sub SD Salac (very underrated and cool). It's one of the most defining Pokemon in the tier and deserves to move up.
 
Last edited:
I dont know about Raikous other sets because i havent used them but i can say that the AV set is amazing in the meta right now. I've put it on a new team just to try out something new and it performed so well that it found its way into several other teams by now.

Its simply an amazing special pivot for offensive and balanced teams alike. Its special bulk is enough to live hits from monsters like Gengar, Gardevoir, Zard Y and Diancie (hell it even has 40% chance to live Lando-Is Earthpower from full life without any special investment). All of them are pretty big threats especially to balanced teams and Raikou provides an answer to all of them. And it doesnt stop there, Keldeo, Manaphy, Thundy, Manetric, Tornadus, Starmie, Pinsir, Talonflame, Serperior the Latis to an extent, even Metagross doesnt like to stay in and eat a volt switch/shadow ball and since Raikou resists Mash he can actually switch into him when needed. Yes depending on the sets and circumstances some of these mons beat Raikou (Talon @ +2 for example) but even if he isnt a surefire answer to all of them he is still a good check and helps alot in dealing with those things.

If you want to compare Raikous AV set to something in the A ranks, its probably AV Tornadus and from my perspective they are about equal in viability. (personally id pick Raikou over Tornadus 9 out of 10 times because i hate inaccurate moves but thats personal bias) Raikou has only 1 weakness which hits on the physical side for the most part against 2 common special weaks on tornadus side, far more reliable stab and coverage options and better bulk on the special side. Tornadus has slightly better speed (Starmie and Hawlucha are basicly the only mons between them) und utility in the form of Knock off. It goes without saying that these 2 also work perfectly together as they cover each others weaks nicely. Same goes for Raikou + Scarf Lando-T.

Compared to Manetric he lacks fire coverage (which is pretty much only needed for Scizor/Ferro) and his Speed + Firepower are lower but not needing a mega slot is a pretty big deal considering the competitions for that slot and these flaws dont realy hinder Raikou in his role. Sure a little more damage/speed would be nice but he outspeeds and ohkoes/2hkoes most of the things he is supposed to check anyway so who cares? He isnt without flaws but he has all the tools he needs and its hard to find a similiar combination of speed, power and special bulk, the only rival is AV Tornadus-T who has a bunch of flaws himself and still resides in A. Considering that Raikou has more sets at his disposal i cant realy see why he shouldnt be A rank as well.

The biggest issue with him in my oppinion is Hippo because that thing shuts him down for good but the same is true for Manetric so that shouldnt keep Raikou out of the A ranks.
 
Last edited:

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
Im gonna keep this short cause Im at work but to the address the point above I just want to say that I believe tornadus-t is more viable and is more of a threat in the meta than raikou is, and this is taking into their capabilites just as threats. Not sure how it was assumed they can be compared outside of having an AV set lol cause thats about as far as the comparions go realistically. A is also kind of high for raikou tbh.
 
I was comparing their AV sets as they are both fast, specially defensive pivots aka they have basicly the same role on a team. (Again i am only talking about their AV sets).
 
Last edited:
I was comparing their AV sets and as they are both fast, specially defensive pivots aka they have basicly the same role on a team. (Again i am only talking about their AV sets).
lol no. They check no where near the same group of mons (other than the broad term of "special"), and practically no team can switch their AV Raikou/Torn-T for the other and still work the same.

Anyway, I agree with Raikou moving to A, it should really be in the same rank as MMan, as their strong points balance each other out. Although MMan runs an offensive set better, it simply can't pull off bulkier sets due to lacking AV and Raikou can fill the role of a fast electric attacker to a similar level without taking up the mega slot.

I also agree with Infernape moving up, but not past C+. I'm not too strong on this one. It is clearly better than C, but relying on focus blast to break some bulky fire resists and being in what, after the ORAS speed creep, is a bit of an unfortunate speed tier, I doubt it's ability for B-. It has a bit of 4MSS in most sets, it's lead set would like SR, endeavor, mach punch, CC and overheat, NP would like NP, fire blast, focus blast, grass knot and vacuum wave (although the latter isn't too important, it makes up for it's poor offense matchup). It's movepool is extremely wide, along with that and it's rareness (therefore many people are unprepared for it) makes it an excellent poke to lure with, but that's hard when it wants alot of moves to fit into 4 slots as it is. The one set that's free from that is the defensive one really. This leads me to my next point: It's unfortunate speed tier and low bulk when uninvested. I'm not sure it's worthy of B- because of these points, but I support C+.

E for below: Raikou in absolutely no way checks Lando-I: It has a chance to OHKO with it's STAB move. It's at best a revenge killer, but as firehusky said, it needs a bit of chip for that.
 
Last edited:
lol no. They check no where near the same group of mons (other than the broad term of "special"), and practically no team can switch their AV Raikou/Torn-T for the other and still work the same.
Its special bulk is enough to live hits from monsters like Gengar, Gardevoir, Zard Y and Diancie (hell it even has 40% chance to live Lando-Is Earthpower from full life without any special investment). All of them are pretty big threats especially to balanced teams and Raikou provides an answer to all of them. And it doesnt stop there, Keldeo, Manaphy, Thundy, Manetric, Tornadus, Starmie, Pinsir, Talonflame, Serperior the Latis to an extent,
Bolded the ones that both check. Sure they are different but "no where near the same group of mons" isnt true imo. They share a bunch of key targets.
 
Well Gardevoir 2HKOes both Raikou and Tornadus-T with Hyper Voice or Psyshock, while neither can KO it back. Tornadus-T is also only a shaky check to Landorus-I as it doesn't enjoy having it's AV knocked off by knock off and the increasing usage of Rock Slide isn't nice to it either. Raikou can live an Earth Power from Lando-I but it fails to guarantee a KO back with HP Ice which is kind of sad. Raikou also can't really check Starmie considering it comes down to a speed tie and Raikou can't switch in without losing like 3/4 of it's HP because of analytic. Scarf Keldeo outspeeds Raikou and if raikou switches in on a scald and gets burned, factoring in burn and SR damage, it's going to be gone next time it switches in. Raikou is 2HKOed by secret sword and hydro pump is doing a solid 40% so if raikou has taken over 20% (which isn't hard to achieve considering SR is 12% already and raikou lacks reliable recovery so it's worn down pretty fast), it's dead. Really, the only move raikou can switch in on against a keldeo in a practical situation is icy wind or hp flying / hp electric. A "bunch" of key targets isn't exactly true when out of your list, only gengar, serp, and the lati twins are really the only mons that they share.
 
Well Gardevoir 2HKOes both Raikou and Tornadus-T with Hyper Voice or Psyshock, while neither can KO it back. Tornadus-T is also only a shaky check to Landorus-I as it doesn't enjoy having it's AV knocked off by knock off and the increasing usage of Rock Slide isn't nice to it either. Raikou can live an Earth Power from Lando-I but it fails to guarantee a KO back with HP Ice which is kind of sad. Raikou also can't really check Starmie considering it comes down to a speed tie and Raikou can't switch in without losing like 3/4 of it's HP because of analytic. Scarf Keldeo outspeeds Raikou and if raikou switches in on a scald and gets burned, factoring in burn and SR damage, it's going to be gone next time it switches in. Raikou is 2HKOed by secret sword and hydro pump is doing a solid 40% so if raikou has taken over 20% (which isn't hard to achieve considering SR is 12% already and raikou lacks reliable recovery so it's worn down pretty fast), it's dead. Really, the only move raikou can switch in on against a keldeo in a practical situation is icy wind or hp flying / hp electric. A "bunch" of key targets isn't exactly true when out of your list, only gengar, serp, and the lati twins are really the only mons that they share.
4 posts and i am already tired of this shit here -.-

You know what a check is dont you? Just going by definition Raikou doesnt even have to be able to switch into everything to check it. The fact that he can, depending on the situation just makes him better. And honestly Scarf Keldeo getting burn on first hit while SR is on the field and crappy raikou can only check him once... omg is that thing bad. Raikou checks every Keldeo set thats a fact, he cant switch in all that often depending on the move but he is a freaking check, not a hard counter.
 
Raikou and Torn-T still aren't even checks to MGarde because Tbolt and Hurricane don't 2HKO and that's considering that Torn-T even manages to hit two hurricanes in a row. Raikou can't check Lando-I either because any move + earth power will KO it, while HP Ice doesn't OHKO from full. Raikou is still not a check to Starmie because Ice beam does 28% - 33% with analytic followed by psyshock which is 56% - 67%. So on average Ice Beam + Psyshock is doing 30.5% + 61.5% which is 92%, aka Raikou dies after SR. However, that's assuming starmie wins the speed tie, so either raikou has to switch in on rapid spin to win or rely on a 50/50. Pretty shaky if you ask me. Even if Raikou checks keldeo, that's still only gengar, serperior, keldeo, and the lati twins which they both check. Wouldn't call that a lot.

252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 292-344 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
 

Mr. Hothead

formerly Salt2DaFeds
Raikou and Torn-T still aren't even checks to MGarde because Tbolt and Hurricane don't 2HKO and that's considering that Torn-T even manages to hit two hurricanes in a row. Raikou can't check Lando-I either because any move + earth power will KO it, while HP Ice doesn't OHKO from full. Raikou is still not a check to Starmie because Ice beam does 28% - 33% with analytic followed by psyshock which is 56% - 67%. So on average Ice Beam + Psyshock is doing 30.5% + 61.5% which is 92%, aka Raikou dies after SR. However, that's assuming starmie wins the speed tie, so either raikou has to switch in on rapid spin to win or rely on a 50/50. Pretty shaky if you ask me. Even if Raikou checks keldeo, that's still only gengar, serperior, keldeo, and the lati twins which they both check. Wouldn't call that a lot.

252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 292-344 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Sure, thats not a lot, but its not like they are meta defining at all... Gengar is a pain to work with on a lot of playstyles, its always good to have a Keldeo check, and who cares if raik is a soft check to starmie... tbh Offensive Starmie isnt really THAT good and raik beats that set.

While i dont agree on Raik to A, im still meh with it. it checks a lot, but it has the same problem just like every other electric: its passive to bulky walls and cant really do shit but volt switch. I just feel like you cant get the best of both worlds: AV Raik is bulky but weak af, and SpecsKou is stong but paper thin. I can see raik in a but its kinda underwhelming for an electric type sometimes. I cant see it in the same rank as an arguably better MMan, however.
 
Wow, heat Rotom only makes D rank in OU? I would have thought being able to sponge both Thunder Wave and Will o Wisp would be more useful.
 
Wow, heat Rotom only makes D rank in OU? I would have thought being able to sponge both Thunder Wave and Will o Wisp would be more useful.
It has a SR weakness and Overheat has a nasty side effect. It is also outclassed by Rotom-W which offers better resists and practically the same movepool, but with the ability to threaten bulky grounds such as Hippo and Land-t
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Wow, heat Rotom only makes D rank in OU? I would have thought being able to sponge both Thunder Wave and Will o Wisp would be more useful.
Yeah, but that comes at the cost of being Weak to SR and very common offensive types in OU, and like Anduril just mentioned, Rotom-W has a better defensive typing and Overheat has that annoying -2 everytime you use it.
 
Not trying to sound like I'm minimodding here, but tbh you shouldn't base an argument for a ranking mainly on 'Opportunity Cost' because that can fall flat on its face when just because it doesn't fill a mega slot, means it should be the same rank as said mega. Like. Guys, we should totally elect Jirachi to S rank because it's basically non mega Metagross?! Amirite?! Yeah no. I don't mean to sound rude but arguments need more backbone than just opportunity cost, while for some mons it may be just easily seen (ex: Latios > Mega Latios not really this topic but still), others it needs more in depth explaining and even then usually said Mega has something, or many things, over mon that's in the opportunity cost argument.

Edit: *Flame Shield up!*
 
Last edited:
Charizard Mega Y to A+.

This is a very powerfull pokemon,and i like it because it goes one way,while it has some weaknesses that his other megax doesnt have,he still shines under the sun.Drought ability makes Charizard not afraid to stay in non scarfed rotom wash,as it can solarbeam it.Ive been testing him and it catches people off guard.They think im going for X when i go for y they go for eq and i go for solarbeam,or something that takes them out.Also it makes charizard bulky enough to take a water attack in the sun,and retaliate with SB.It can also use roost for getting the Ele weakness outta the way,and then retaliate with either STAB flamethrower on the sun,SolarBeam etc.
And it can stay in on heatran as it can focus blast it,HP ice beats Landos,it does leave a massive dent on the tier.


Lets calc:

Non-defensive in Sun.

+1 252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 170-204 (57.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

252 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 134-162 (45.1 - 54.5%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 146-174 (49.1 - 58.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 170-204 (57.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 156-186 (52.5 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

while he


252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 240-284 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 306-360 (76.3 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

He hits hard,like a truck right now to be honest.Ill take any critics that may come in my way but thats how i feel.
 
Charizard Mega Y to A+.

This is a very powerfull pokemon,and i like it because it goes one way,while it has some weaknesses that his other megax doesnt have,he still shines under the sun.Drought ability makes Charizard not afraid to stay in non scarfed rotom wash,as it can solarbeam it.Ive been testing him and it catches people off guard.They think im going for X when i go for y they go for eq and i go for solarbeam,or something that takes them out.Also it makes charizard bulky enough to take a water attack in the sun,and retaliate with SB.It can also use roost for getting the Ele weakness outta the way,and then retaliate with either STAB flamethrower on the sun,SolarBeam etc.
And it can stay in on heatran as it can focus blast it,HP ice beats Landos,it does leave a massive dent on the tier.


Lets calc:

Non-defensive in Sun.

+1 252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 170-204 (57.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

252 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 134-162 (45.1 - 54.5%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 146-174 (49.1 - 58.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 170-204 (57.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 156-186 (52.5 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

while he


252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 240-284 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 306-360 (76.3 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.


He hits hard,like a truck right now to be honest.Ill take any critics that may come in my way but thats how i feel.
Alright, it's one thing to give calcs showing bulk, but it's another to show off dumb calcs about how Zard Y deals a shitton to Waters with Solarbeam, it's like a 120 BP attack used in a super effective way. It's gonna do damage. He loses to Hippo, especially if you Solar Beam on the switch because Solar Beam is reduced to a pitiful 60 BP under Sand and it does jack while leaving you open to Stone Edge, which Hippo is common now so that's not exactly great. It's a good wallbreaker and it does deal a fuckload of damage, I know this from experience and using it a plethora of times on many strong teams, and I agree with the raise, but the way you advocated his raise was extremely flawed and tbh those calcs prove he's sort of weak and also let me note that most Zard Y's these days run Modest because they are powerful Wallbreakers under sun that want to deal as much damage as possible. Let me also mention that Fire Blast does more in sun than HP Ice on a x4 weakness, so that's not really that much use. And you shouldn't stay in on a Lando and a Lando shouldn't switch into you, because Lando will die before Zard Y's overwhelming power. It's a good mon, a great wallbreaker, and a serious nuke, but this nom was... eh. You didn't really justify much with the calcs, yeah, Water moves only do normal damage since sun halves Water moves BP, so it's not gonna do as much. Plus Zard X is also neutral to water so ._.
 
Not trying to sound like I'm minimodding here, but tbh you shouldn't base an argument for a ranking mainly on 'Opportunity Cost' because that can fall flat on its face when just because it doesn't fill a mega slot, means it should be the same rank as said mega. Like. Guys, we should totally elect Jirachi to S rank because it's basically non mega Metagross?! Amirite?! Yeah no. I don't mean to sound rude but arguments need more backbone than just opportunity cost, while for some mons it may be just easily seen (ex: Latios > Mega Latios not really this topic but still), others it needs more in depth explaining and even then usually said Mega has something, or many things, over mon that's in the opportunity cost argument.

Edit: *Flame Shield up!*
I assume this was directed at me, so I'll try to defend myself.
My nomination for raikou going to A was a lot more in depth as besides opportunity cost, raikou has some other advantages such as being able to check gengar with an AV or beat stuff like CroCune and CroBro at +1 with specs thunderbolt. Also the comparison of jirachi to mega metagross is really off, and I don't feel the need to even explain why it's not a good comparison. Raikou and mega manectric are really similar; fast electric-types, birdspam check, gain momentum with volt switch, etc. Considering that raikou has some advantages over mega manectric (explained in my earlier post already), and mega manectric has some advantages over raikou, the two kind of balance each other out with their positive traits. Considering that there are a lot more HO and BO megas to choose from with the advent of ORAS, mega manectric has gained a lot more competition from other mega pokemon such as lopunny for the mega slot on said teams, so the opportunity cost argument is actually pretty valid. Obviously you shouldn't base your entire argument on opportunity cost, but my post wasn't based on only opportunity cost.
 
Alright, it's one thing to give calcs showing bulk, but it's another to show off dumb calcs about how Zard Y deals a shitton to Waters with Solarbeam, it's like a 120 BP attack used in a super effective way. It's gonna do damage. He loses to Hippo, especially if you Solar Beam on the switch because Solar Beam is reduced to a pitiful 60 BP under Sand and it does jack while leaving you open to Stone Edge, which Hippo is common now so that's not exactly great. It's a good wallbreaker and it does deal a fuckload of damage, I know this from experience and using it a plethora of times on many strong teams, and I agree with the raise, but the way you advocated his raise was extremely flawed and tbh those calcs prove he's sort of weak and also let me note that most Zard Y's these days run Modest because they are powerful Wallbreakers under sun that want to deal as much damage as possible. Let me also mention that Fire Blast does more in sun than HP Ice on a x4 weakness, so that's not really that much use. And you shouldn't stay in on a Lando and a Lando shouldn't switch into you, because Lando will die before Zard Y's overwhelming power. It's a good mon, a great wallbreaker, and a serious nuke, but this nom was... eh. You didn't really justify much with the calcs, yeah, Water moves only do normal damage since sun halves Water moves BP, so it's not gonna do as much. Plus Zard X is also neutral to water so ._.
I'm sorry for essentially a one liner, but this annoys me so much.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 237-280 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

HIPPO IS NOT A COUNTER!!!

I mean yes, hippo wins 1 v 1 most of the time, but why does this lessen zards viability?
 
firehusky, I have some respect for you as a player and it was directed at pretty much everyone's arguments. Opportunity cost arguments are a lot like the 4MSS arguments we talked about a few pages back, you shouldn't base your whole argument around them but they are notable enough to warrant a drop/stay. And your argument wasn't all opportunity cost, believe me, I know, but a lot of the basis for some peoples post was petty things and how Raikou doesn't use a mega slot. Yes, Raikou hits hard with Specs, gets locked in, yes Raikou can tank hits with AV, over Mane, but it hits piss weakly. LO reduces longevity but makes it stronger, it gets CM but it loses coverage and/or can't VSwitch out. Honestly Albacore summed it up excellently.

I'm sorry for essentially a one liner, but this annoys me so much.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 237-280 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

HIPPO IS NOT A COUNTER!!!

I mean yes, hippo wins 1 v 1 most of the time, but why does this lessen zards viability?
Edit @ Above: I was mentioning how it can switch into Solar Beam and it loses 1v1 then, I should have elaborated more, that is honestly my fault.
 
Last edited:
It has a SR weakness and Overheat has a nasty side effect. It is also outclassed by Rotom-W which offers better resists and practically the same movepool, but with the ability to threaten bulky grounds such as Hippo and Land-t
I always forget about stealth rocks. Then again, when I've used heat Rotom, it was a lead choiced variant to trick a scarf onto opponents that want to SR.
 
I always forget about stealth rocks. Then again, when I've used heat Rotom, it was a lead choiced variant to trick a scarf onto opponents that want to SR.
Unfortunately, a large amount of sr setters are pokemon the rotom-h wouldn't want to stay in on, such as tyranitar. The few that would stay in, like ferrothorn, would switch out the moment they see a fire type. The only advantage rotom-h has over rotom-w is that it pressures ferrothorn instead of being checked by it. Other than that, it doesn't bring anything new to the table that can be seen in a positive light.
 
Raikou and Torn-T still aren't even checks to MGarde because Tbolt and Hurricane don't 2HKO and that's considering that Torn-T even manages to hit two hurricanes in a row. Raikou can't check Lando-I either because any move + earth power will KO it, while HP Ice doesn't OHKO from full. Raikou is still not a check to Starmie because Ice beam does 28% - 33% with analytic followed by psyshock which is 56% - 67%. So on average Ice Beam + Psyshock is doing 30.5% + 61.5% which is 92%, aka Raikou dies after SR. However, that's assuming starmie wins the speed tie, so either raikou has to switch in on rapid spin to win or rely on a 50/50. Pretty shaky if you ask me. Even if Raikou checks keldeo, that's still only gengar, serperior, keldeo, and the lati twins which they both check. Wouldn't call that a lot.

252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 292-344 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Ok once again, a check doesnt have to be able to switch into any move to be a check. Raikou outspeeds Lando-I and ohkoes after SR or any sort of prior damage and even if it doesn't ohko Lando is basicly out of the game as even LO damage from HP ice will kill him. Raikou will also always win 1on1 against offensive Starmie even if he loses the speed tie. I'll give you Garde as Tornadus cant realy 2hko, he can just pivot in and back out for chip damage while Raikou needs SR to 2hko with Shadowball but still. And realy, you cant go and assume SR on the field for every calc against Raikou while ignoring it when talking about Lando-I and Garde. If your using SR as an argument at least be consequent with it.

Gengar, Keldeo, Latis, Starmie, Lando-I that are pokemon you see on like every second team in the high ladder and for good reason so while not a lot (btw i never said anything about "a lot" i just said that they share a bunch of key targets) its still a very significant group of mons.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top