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If Snorlax becomes ranked then AM has to put Archeops on the list too ;~;.
Because the Stealth Rock, Endeavor, Head Smash, Taunt set with focus sash is just as worthy as D-rank as snorlax.
If Snorlax becomes ranked then AM has to put Archeops on the list too ;~;.
Because the Stealth Rock, Endeavor, Head Smash, Taunt set with focus sash is just as worthy as D-rank as snorlax.
I think it's cause MSab can just delay mega evo-ing until prankster is no longer needed, as well as being incompatible with his mega, and having mediocre bulk. While still annoying, you may as well just go mega and time your MEvo well.
Anyone else remember when people thought M.Sab would suck 'cause it'd lose prankster?
Vanilla Sableye also suffers from some pretty meh stats, and gen 6 brought it a weakness in the fairy type, and they're freaking everywhere. As a Prankster status abuser it faces a lot of competition from Klefki, who has a much better typing with tons of useful resistances and Thundurus, who actually has offensive presence.
However, being the only mon with access to Prankster Will-o-Wisp (aside from Mega-Banette lol) and having some benefits over the other two mons I mentioned (i.e. reliable recovery) is why it has a niche in OU and is D-ranked.
Oh yeah I'm making a new thread once votes are in for this slate. Just thought I would let you guys and gals know right now. Vote results will be on next thread when that's posted so keep a lookout for that in the coming days or so.
If the Aegislash un-ban does come to fruition, how will the viability ranking team handle the massive changes that the meta will undergo because of it?
Welp before the thread closes lemme make one case real quick Mega Garchomp to B+/B
This monster being in B- makes me really cry ;_;
The main argument i hear most of the time is "muh opportunity cost" or "kyu-b is better"
Well honestly i can kinda agree with the first one, but I like to think of mgarchomp as a swift swimmer for rain teams.
Its not so much that you need rain to use swift swimmers, its more that you get to use swift swimmers and providing rain is just a minor cost.
In the same way that its a privilege to be able to use swift swimmers cuz they're so friggin fast and strong, Mega garchomp is so fucking powerful (with incredible raw bulk) that its honestly a privilege to be able to build around that god.
The second part: comparing to kyu-b.
Well the both are dragons. Both are around the same speed benchmark, just short of the crucial 100. Both are wallbreakers. Both have very high BST
The similarities pretty much end there...
Where it starts to get different is this, and this is the part that matters the most: What each wallbreaker is pressuring and what it can kill.
When you look at kyu-b when building a stall team, you think of getting steels. Scizor, ferrothorn, jirachi, because fairies are for the most part perishing to ice beam (252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
But kyu-b has options to pressure steels, mainly hp fire. So even those aren't a surefire answer.
In the end, your only real answers to kyu-b are pretty much shit like ttar and av conk :L even tar needs to be scarfed to not just get steamrolled by CB outrage.
So effectively, kyu-b has no counters to all its sets. That's pretty good.
Its ice/electric coverage lets it destroy stuff like grounds/waters, and its raw power for the most part handles fairies.
So to summarize kyu-b pressures steels/fairies and beats grounds/waters.
Now when you think of mega garchomp when building a stall team, you give up. You just move on. You realize that you're never gonna counter this thing, you just be sure to keep sab unmega'd for this thing alone, and you move on to the next threat. More often than not all that stall teams have is starmie and hope to scald burn :L
I mean once this thing gets to +2 (and nearly as much raw bulk as ferrothorn vs a stall team trust me it is) you really just click x.
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 376-444 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (calc isn't workin w/megas, i factored in the stats)
I mean unboosted it pressures shit like slowbro and skarm but in optimal conditions there's seriously nothing that can stand up to it.
So to summarize mgarchomp pressures waters/grounds and beats steels/fairies
Kyu-b and mega garchomp pressure almost the exact opposite shit. And these guys are wallbreakers? How can you seriously compare these two when they break through and are checked by almost the exact opposite mons? But no then people went ahead and dismissed kyu-b as better in every regard or some bs and moved mchomp down. I never really understood that :I
Now lets move onto its bulk. As i've already mentioned before, mega garchomp's bulk (108/115/95, sum is 318) is comparable to ferrothorn's ( 74/131/116, sum is 321) Kyu-b stands at 125/100/90, sum is 315. In terms of being able to take hits, seriously, mega garchomp is totally freaking set.
You could argue that kyu-b has roost, something that mgarchomp doesn't have. Well, mega garchomp has swords dance. take a wild guess as to which one is more important for wallbreakers.
Another thing that separates the two: Kyu-b has no counters factoring in multiple sets, but each one of them have some checks at the very least.
Mega garchomp has zero answers to just one set, your only option is to revenge kill.
And we can't forget their typing either, mega garchomp resists rocks and generally has a far better defensive typing than kyu-b does, which is weak to common priority like bp and mach punch and weak to rocks.
But the best part is obviously the power. I'll just cover the "best" (imo) set and move on with the calcs. Here's the set i run for reference.
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 376-444 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable in Sand: 250-295 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sand: 216-255 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(most ppl run sdef anyway, which is this)
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory in Sand: 284-335 (85 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz in Sand: 582-686 (137.5 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Sand: 382-451 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sand: 384-453 (97.4 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Sand: 474-558 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 372-438 (122.7 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 399-469 (95 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Sand: 351-414 (115.4 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (mega stats)
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria in Sand: 384-453 (108.4 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (mega stats)
+1 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 307-363 (80.3 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 330-388 (88.2 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Of course, its very prone to revenge killing. It requires sand support for most of these kills (it's gettin 2hko regardless but anyways).
But its one mon. Running one set. OHKO'ing almost every relevant physically defensive mon in the tier.
And this thing is B-?
TL; DR one set on mega chomp massacres everything and that's worth the sand support and mega slot it needs.
/essay
Zygarde: C- to D. (First viability nomination please don't be mean :cc)
Honestly, how has this thing stayed in C-? I mean, it's niches over Garchomp are honestly not important enough for it to be in any ranking besides D rank. All it gets over Garchomp that'd you even consider using is E-Speed, Coil, or D-Dance. D-Dance is an option that on paper, makes Zygarde intriguing, but not much is scared enough by it to switch out, especially since most of the pokemon that it'd scare outspeed it, and Zygarde doesn't run Scarf, so it doesn't have a chance to outspeed any base 100s/other scarfers. Coil as well, seems like a decent idea, as it's defenses are a lot better than Garchomp, but without recovery (Outside of rest), it's easily whittled down, especially upon the special side. That's with most setup bulky pokemon, but I mean, point still stands. There's nothing Zygarde has to keep it in C- rank, and I feel that D rank is a much better place for it to be ranked.
Have to agree with Zygarde going down. It has next to no use in OU when Garchomp is around. It's more defensive but Chomp has more utility with Stealth Rock and Rough Skin. Extremespeed is not that much of a utility when it's running defensive sets and it's coming off base 100 attack. Coil is alright, but not really all that useful when it can't break most walls like Hippo that can just Whirlwind it out.
Zygarde: C- to D. (First viability nomination please don't be mean :cc)
Honestly, how has this thing stayed in C-? I mean, it's niches over Garchomp are honestly not important enough for it to be in any ranking besides D rank. All it gets over Garchomp that'd you even consider using is E-Speed, Coil, or D-Dance. D-Dance is an option that on paper, makes Zygarde intriguing, but not much is scared enough by it to switch out, especially since most of the pokemon that it'd scare outspeed it, and Zygarde doesn't run Scarf, so it doesn't have a chance to outspeed any base 100s/other scarfers. Coil as well, seems like a decent idea, as it's defenses are a lot better than Garchomp, but without recovery (Outside of rest), it's easily whittled down, especially upon the special side. That's with most setup bulky pokemon, but I mean, point still stands. There's nothing Zygarde has to keep it in C- rank, and I feel that D rank is a much better place for it to be ranked.
I support this. Zygrade is basically nonexistent in the current OU meta, and for good reason. Its typing is the same as Garchomp, so it gains no advantage in typing. It is a very unimpressive Pokemon with others outclassing it in almost every way. Until Zygarde receives Thousand Arrows and/or a new form I support the nomination of a drop to D. Also, "Highly mediocre" sounds about right for Zygarde, rather than the lesser negative connotation of simply "mediocre". It is outclassed to the point that seeing it with some Pokemon, which aren't even that good, such as Kyurem, Blissey, and Dugtrio are comparatively good. At least these three have their niche in being a Sub/Roost stallbreaker with Pressure, ultimate SpD Wall, and ground type trapper respectively. Zygarde's niche is too small to even be remotely useful on basically all teams.
For these reasons I support the nomination of Zygarde C->D.
Welp before the thread closes lemme make one case real quick Mega Garchomp to B+/B
This monster being in B- makes me really cry ;_;
The main argument i hear most of the time is "muh opportunity cost" or "kyu-b is better"
Well honestly i can kinda agree with the first one, but I like to think of mgarchomp as a swift swimmer for rain teams.
Its not so much that you need rain to use swift swimmers, its more that you get to use swift swimmers and providing rain is just a minor cost.
In the same way that its a privilege to be able to use swift swimmers cuz they're so friggin fast and strong, Mega garchomp is so fucking powerful (with incredible raw bulk) that its honestly a privilege to be able to build around that god.
The second part: comparing to kyu-b.
Well the both are dragons. Both are around the same speed benchmark, just short of the crucial 100. Both are wallbreakers. Both have very high BST
The similarities pretty much end there...
Where it starts to get different is this, and this is the part that matters the most: What each wallbreaker is pressuring and what it can kill.
When you look at kyu-b when building a stall team, you think of getting steels. Scizor, ferrothorn, jirachi, because fairies are for the most part perishing to ice beam (252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
But kyu-b has options to pressure steels, mainly hp fire. So even those aren't a surefire answer.
In the end, your only real answers to kyu-b are pretty much shit like ttar and av conk :L even tar needs to be scarfed to not just get steamrolled by CB outrage.
So effectively, kyu-b has no counters to all its sets. That's pretty good.
Its ice/electric coverage lets it destroy stuff like grounds/waters, and its raw power for the most part handles fairies.
So to summarize kyu-b pressures steels/fairies and beats grounds/waters.
Now when you think of mega garchomp when building a stall team, you give up. You just move on. You realize that you're never gonna counter this thing, you just be sure to keep sab unmega'd for this thing alone, and you move on to the next threat. More often than not all that stall teams have is starmie and hope to scald burn :L
I mean once this thing gets to +2 (and nearly as much raw bulk as ferrothorn vs a stall team trust me it is) you really just click x.
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 376-444 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (calc isn't workin w/megas, i factored in the stats)
I mean unboosted it pressures shit like slowbro and skarm but in optimal conditions there's seriously nothing that can stand up to it.
So to summarize mgarchomp pressures waters/grounds and beats steels/fairies
Kyu-b and mega garchomp pressure almost the exact opposite shit. And these guys are wallbreakers? How can you seriously compare these two when they break through and are checked by almost the exact opposite mons? But no then people went ahead and dismissed kyu-b as better in every regard or some bs and moved mchomp down. I never really understood that :I
Now lets move onto its bulk. As i've already mentioned before, mega garchomp's bulk (108/115/95, sum is 318) is comparable to ferrothorn's ( 74/131/116, sum is 321) Kyu-b stands at 125/100/90, sum is 315. In terms of being able to take hits, seriously, mega garchomp is totally freaking set.
You could argue that kyu-b has roost, something that mgarchomp doesn't have. Well, mega garchomp has swords dance. take a wild guess as to which one is more important for wallbreakers.
Another thing that separates the two: Kyu-b has no counters factoring in multiple sets, but each one of them have some checks at the very least.
Mega garchomp has zero answers to just one set, your only option is to revenge kill.
But the best part is obviously the power. I'll just cover the "best" (imo) set and move on with the calcs. Here's the set i run for reference.
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 376-444 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable in Sand: 250-295 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sand: 216-255 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(most ppl run sdef anyway, which is this)
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory in Sand: 284-335 (85 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz in Sand: 582-686 (137.5 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Sand: 382-451 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sand: 384-453 (97.4 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Sand: 474-558 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 372-438 (122.7 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 399-469 (95 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Sand: 351-414 (115.4 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (mega stats)
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria in Sand: 384-453 (108.4 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (mega stats)
+1 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 307-363 (80.3 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 330-388 (88.2 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Of course, its very prone to revenge killing. It requires sand support for most of these kills (it's gettin 2hko regardless but anyways).
But its one mon. Running one set. OHKO'ing almost every relevant physically defensive mon in the tier.
And this thing is B-?
TL; DR one set on mega chomp massacres everything and that's worth the sand support and mega slot it needs.
/essay
Going to go ahead and agree with Srn's nomination of Mega Garchomp---> B / B+
Mega Chomp has virtually no oppurtunity cost, as its already at home on one of the few dominating playstyles in the meta, which is Sand. This mon is an absolute terror to Stall, especially under said weather. Not only that, but it smacks defensive cores to the point where a common Sand partner such as Drill or Talon can easily clean late game (EQ is easily 2HKOing mons as bulky as Slowbro for example) Cresselia is really the only hard Defensive check, but thats easily beat by SD
Also, unlike Kyu-B, it doesnt have to choose between coverage in its last slot (Ie; Kyurem would want HP Fire for Sciz / Ferro, or Outrage to break Chansey) Chomp literally only needs 4 slots to do its job. Mega Chomp's typing is also superior defensively so theres that
Tl;DR Really cool mon imo, that has a place on one of the most dominant playstyles and deserves a rise [:
Relevant Calcs+Replay
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor in Sand: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
4 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 195-231 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 184-217 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W in Sand: 131-155 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 154-183 (50.8 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sand: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur in Sand: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune in Sand: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Sand: 237-280 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos in Sand: 330-390 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Oml
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sand: 378-445 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Personally, I have not extensively used all of Zygarde's sets, but the ones I have tried were ParaShuffler and Band (Used as a bulky pivot with ExtremeSpeed), and it didn't really do much spectacular. The Band set was especially disappointing, since even though I could switch it into things more recklessly than Dragonite, its damage output was pretty sad. The ParaShuffler set I used on a stall team and it worked better, especially since Glare is such a good asset, but it had trouble really shining since most bulky fairies just put a stop to it. Coil is something interesting, but with powerful special attackers all around that can hit it hard, I never had a problem with it except in UU. Dragon Dance is something I've almost never seen in XY, and none in ORAS, but it doesn't seem like it would be particularly threatening at +1. Overall, I believe that it should drop. As far as I'm concerned, it fits in the definition of D rank quite snugly.
Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.
I believe that it's still viable to justify enough its use on very select teams. While it's reasonably versatile, I don't think that it can do its job very well, and I definitely believe that it has multiple crippling flaws that keep it from success most of the time. I also believe that it belongs down the ranks with Shaymin (Which I like but it's better in UU), Rotom-H, Duoblade, and vanilla Diancie.
The Dragon Dance set lacks power and doesn't have the best coverage either. The Coil set is left quite open on the special side and doesn't like the presence of Mega Altaria and other special attackers that have SE STAB or an Ice coverage move. The Parashuffler set suffers against teams with cleric support, especially if it happens to be Clefable which stops it so hard, and faces stiff competition from Tank 'Chomp which has chip damage and Hippowdon which has reliable recovery. The Band set I tried out is meh despite seeming decent on paper due to its access to ExtremeSpeed and EdgeQuake.
Personally, I have not extensively used all of Zygarde's sets, but the ones I have tried were ParaShuffler and Band (Used as a bulky pivot with ExtremeSpeed), and it didn't really do much spectacular. The Band set was especially disappointing, since even though I could switch it into things more recklessly than Dragonite, its damage output was pretty sad. The ParaShuffler set I used on a stall team and it worked better, especially since Glare is such a good asset, but it had trouble really shining since most bulky fairies just put a stop to it. Coil is something interesting, but with powerful special attackers all around that can hit it hard, I never had a problem with it except in UU. Dragon Dance is something I've almost never seen in XY, and none in ORAS, but it doesn't seem like it would be particularly threatening at +1. Overall, I believe that it should drop. As far as I'm concerned, it fits in the definition of D rank quite snugly.
Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.
I believe that it's still viable to justify enough its use on very select teams. While it's reasonably versatile, I don't think that it can do its job very well, and I definitely believe that it has multiple crippling flaws that keep it from success most of the time. I also believe that it belongs down the ranks with Shaymin (Which I like but it's better in UU), Rotom-H, Duoblade, and vanilla Diancie.
The Dragon Dance set lacks power and doesn't have the best coverage either. The Coil set is left quite open on the special side and doesn't like the presence of Mega Altaria and other special attackers that have SE STAB or an Ice coverage move. The Parashuffler set suffers against teams with cleric support, especially if it happens to be Clefable which stops it so hard, and faces stiff competition from Tank 'Chomp which has chip damage and Hippowdon which has reliable recovery. The Band set I tried out is meh despite seeming decent on paper due to its access to ExtremeSpeed and EdgeQuake.
I've used the dragon dance variant quite a lot in XY and a few times in ORAS. you're absolutely right when you say it's lackluster, it's like the sad lovechild of dragonite's movepool and garchomp's defensive typing/stats. the only times i've honestly 'swept' is with AT LEAST a +2 boost; which in itself is a feat that requires a bit of team support. i definitely agree with the drop. could somebody possibly enlighten me as to why is was banned from the UU tier in the first place?
This zygarde discussion reminded me of something, why is salamence still ranked? It lost all form of viability it had when mega mence got the boot. The fact every one of its sets is heavily outclassed isn't making things better and it's advantages over it's competition are irrelevant.
I've used the dragon dance variant quite a lot in XY and a few times in ORAS. you're absolutely right when you say it's lackluster, it's like the sad lovechild of dragonite's movepool and garchomp's defensive typing/stats. the only times i've honestly 'swept' is with AT LEAST a +2 boost; which in itself is a feat that requires a bit of team support. i definitely agree with the drop. could somebody possibly enlighten me as to why is was banned from the UU tier in the first place?
It was banned from UU because of the potency of DD and Coil. SubCoil did wonders in UU and, while it's nowhere near as good in OU, still does the job here as a stallbreaker. Once it got behind a sub, stall teams were completely unable to break it. As for DD, it was bulky enough in UU where revenge killing it with a faster mon was not an option.
I think the reason you guys want Zygarde to drop is because it's a poor DD user, and I can completely understand that. Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X are far more threatening with bulky DD; Altaria has a far better defensive typing and Charizard X has far better attacking prowess. Nonetheless, what do you guys think about the SubCoil set? I have not tried it, but between great bulk on the physical and special side, boosting with Coil, Substitute to block status moves and weaker attacks, and Dragon Tail to phaze out foes that try to set up, it does not sound half bad at breaking down stall teams. Not to mention it can phaze out CM Mega Sableye. Other dedicated stallbreakers (i.e. T-Flame and Serperior) may be able to do the job better, though. With that in mind, I believe we need to tap into Zygarde's Sub Coil set before requesting it to drop down to D. Before we explore it a little further, I believe it should stay in C- for the time being.
This zygarde discussion reminded me of something, why is salamence still ranked? It lost all form of viability it had when mega mence got the boot. The fact every one of its sets is heavily outclassed isn't making things better and it's advantages over it's competition are irrelevant.
It was banned from UU because of the potency of DD and Coil. SubCoil did wonders in UU and, while it's nowhere near as good in OU, still does the job here as a stallbreaker. Once it got behind a sub, stall teams were completely unable to break it. As for DD, it was bulky enough in UU where revenge killing it with a faster mon was not an option.
I think the reason you guys want Zygarde to drop is because it's a poor DD user, and I can completely understand that. Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X are far more threatening with bulky DD; Altaria has a far better defensive typing and Charizard X has far better attacking prowess. Nonetheless, what do you guys think about the SubCoil set? I have not tried it, but between great bulk on the physical and special side, boosting with Coil, Substitute to block status moves and weaker attacks, and Dragon Tail to phaze out foes that try to set up, it does not sound half bad at breaking down stall teams. Not to mention it can phaze out CM Mega Sableye. Other dedicated stallbreakers (i.e. T-Flame and Serperior) may be able to do the job better, though. With that in mind, I believe we need to tap into Zygarde's Sub Coil set before requesting it to drop down to D. Before we explore it a little further, I believe it should stay in C- for the time being.
Granted it seems like behind and Sub it can coil for massive physical bulk, but the attackers on the physical side don't need to break it, as its most devastating factor is its weakness to many of the special attackers in the tier. The Life Orb Lati twins OHKO it with Draco Meteor, assuming its sub is broken. Remember also the many users of HP Ice, including Landorus-I and Thundurus, both of which are very large threats right now. In addition Mega Altaria chunks even a Coil boosted Zygarde with a Pixilate boosted Return, while outright OHKOing with the Hyper Voice variant. Unaware Clefable completely shuts out everything that Zygarde wants to do, while healing teammates and hitting hard in the mean time. Also, Zygarde's primary moves are 100% accuracy, so it is basically just a Bulk Up user, which is extremely lack luster outside of Talonflame, who also has better sets outside of Bulk Up.
As I look through the tier list the number of Pokemon that beat it no matter what set it uses keeps growing, while the number that it beats remains small. I can not see this Pokemon used basically ever in OU, and I would sooner support Shaymin than it, as Shaymin seems to actually have a niche, unlike Zygarde, which is outclassed in every way (please do not make an argument about Shaymin, I was only showing that I hold Zygarde in low regard).
If we have to specifically request people to go out and use a set that is completely absent in the meta, that is all the reason to drop it. The fact that no one uses this set enough to have any input clearly shows that it is 'highly mediocre'. Granted it seems like behind and Sub it can coil for massive physical bulk, but the attackers on the physical side don't need to break it, as its most devastating factor is its weakness to many of the special attackers in the tier. The Life Orb Lati twins OHKO it with Draco Meteor, assuming its sub is broken. Remember also the many users of HP Ice, including Landorus-I and Thundurus, both of which are very large threats right now. In addition Mega Altaria chunks even a Coil boosted Zygarde with a Pixilate boosted Return, while outright OHKOing with the Hyper Voice variant. Unaware Clefable completely shuts out everything that Zygarde wants to do, while healing teammates and hitting hard in the mean time. Also, Zygarde's primary moves are 100% accuracy, so it is basically just a Bulk Up user, which is extremely lack luster outside of Talonflame, who also has better sets outside of Bulk Up.
As I look through the tier list the number of Pokemon that beat it no matter what set it uses keeps growing, while the number that it beats remains small. I can not see this Pokemon used basically ever in OU, and I would sooner support Shaymin than it, as Shaymin seems to actually have a niche, unlike Zygarde, which is outclassed in every way (please do not make an argument about Shaymin, I was only showing that I hold Zygarde in low regard).
Usage =/= viability, my friend. Moreover:
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 150-177 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 278-330 (71.8 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With just 120 EVs in HP, the rest are in Speed. Zygarde outspeeds Modest Mega Altaria (special attacker almost always runs Modest) and 2HKOes with a boosted EQ.
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 150-177 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. +1 120 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 230-272 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zygarde won't always have its Sub up, but if it does, Mega Altaria cannot switch into it. It needs a DD boost to be able to beat Zygarde reliably, and even then:
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. +1 120 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 344-408 (88.8 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Cross your damn fingers.
If a mon is going to break its sub, all it has to do is phaze it out with Dragon Tail. Obviously, losing to Clefable is the SubCoil set's main downfall, but you're underselling it way too much.
Usage =/= viability, my friend. Moreover:
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 150-177 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 278-330 (71.8 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With just 120 EVs in HP, the rest are in Speed. Zygarde outspeeds Modest Mega Altaria (special attacker almost always runs Modest) and 2HKOes with a boosted EQ.
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 150-177 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. +1 120 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 230-272 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zygarde won't always have its Sub up, but if it does, Mega Altaria cannot switch into it. It needs a DD boost to be able to beat Zygarde reliably, and even then:
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. +1 120 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 344-408 (88.8 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Cross your damn fingers.
If a mon is going to break its sub, all it has to do is phaze it out with Dragon Tail. Obviously, losing to Clefable is the SubCoil set's main downfall, but you're underselling it way too much.
Thanks for those calcs, I can't get them while I am at school. Still, though that proves it a bit more, it still has no reliable recovery, so once its sub is broken it can not afford to take the damage in these calcs. Also, you are using a very offensive MAlt set, not considering that it can run bulky sets. And I know that usage does not equal viability, as shown from Mega Aerodactyl, but the fact remains that it still just can not do what it needs to do in the OU tier. Yet considering most of the stuff in C- is not good in general, I guess it can have its place. Perhaps I am underselling it, but the few Zygarde that I have ever come across have given me no problem. Sorry if I seemed hostile, I just do not see much in it. Maybe I am wrong, but I will need to see more, as all the scenarios that have been presented grant it two turns uncontested to set up, and most of the time you will only get one. As for my 'the fact that it has to be asked to be used' comment, that was completely wrong and I have removed it, thanks for bringing me back to my senses.
This zygarde discussion reminded me of something, why is salamence still ranked? It lost all form of viability it had when mega mence got the boot. The fact every one of its sets is heavily outclassed isn't making things better and it's advantages over it's competition are irrelevant.
I just meant that it is bad when compared to the Defog set, and tbh the Defog set's discovery is a contributing factor to why Flygon got unranked dispite being D rank and 'conclusion reached.' ScarfMence can work, but the Defog works on a more consistent basis than the Scarf set does (albeit, only a little more consistently). Mence would have probably been unranked if the set hadn't have been discovered tbh.
Tbh I don't really know why you would use mence as a defogger; as an offensive defogger I would just go with the lati twins and if you want a defensive one mandibuzz (especially with aegi on the suspect ladder) or skarmory both work. They all get reliable recovery while poor salamence has to rely on wish (not necessarily bad but often times you'll prefer reliable recovery which helps with stuff like toxic stalling or else you have to run protect). I think one of the main selling points is that while it's for the most part outclassed by other dragon dancers, it does have some niches such as having intimidate to set it apart from altaria and dragonite to ease setup or moxie which makes it increasingly harder to wall every time it gets a kill and really discourages your opponent from sacking mons. Another cool thing about salamence is that it can go mixed which is pretty unpredictable and it actually has decent coverage.
Salamence has a pretty tiny niche but that niche still makes it viable.
