Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[AM]

Flamer it wont be on this update but next update is clean up stuff so the lower ranked stuff, infernape included. It got one nom and no discussion lol so I rather have next slate be more focused on stuff like that after voting (which should be later this week)

 

[bludz]

Its no secret that lots of mons can come in on a particular talonflame variant for free but nearly all of them either dont appreciate a particulat set or are easy to wear down. Talonflames unpredictability is its greatest asset, unlike other "unpredictable" mons, Talonflames various sets have a different host of counters. With mons like Altaria, you can slap a general counter on and still do well if theyre not running the particular set you prepared for. Talonflame is completely different. Out of all the counters mentioned, only Unaware Quagsire and Rotom wash can reliably counter every talonflame set and arent easily worn down, most of them hate wisp (Rhyperior, chomp, ttar, tyrantrum, diancie), many of them might resist a STAB but cannot do anything back/get beaten by another move (Raikou, Zapdos, Heatran). Youre all taking it way too much at face value, Talonflame does well against all playstyles, fills a variety of roles, and is easy to fit on teams. The same argument I hear is "Its so meta defining you have to run a counter or you lose". Greninja was the same, you pack a counter or you lose. In fact, talonflame shares a lot of traits with everyones favourite ninja, particular mons countered particular sets but got beat by a different set, very difficult to revenge, did well against a range of playstyles. The difference? One was undoubtedly S rank and eventually banned while the other resides a rank below while being just as metagame defining. Im by no means saying talon is broken or even close to being worthy of a suspect but the similarities they share are undeniable so why was one bumped to S while the other remains A+ (not that A+ is bad but for something as defining as Talon is almost seems a copout)

So I agree with the first half of your post but the comparison to Greninja is a very flawed one.

Greninja was a completely offensive pokemon that didn't really rely on multiple sets it as was more about coverage moves. Talonflame's versatility comes from Jolly SD vs SpDef, primarily since CB really isn't that popular any more. Now yes the counters to the two sets are vastly different however Jolly SD is a very offensive sweeper while SpDef sets act generally as stallbreakers moreso and are meant to check things. When you consider that your job is to check stuff but you take 50% from switching into SR, this makes the job done A LOT worse, whereas I suppose offensively it matters a lot less (but still matters for Talon because of recoil limiting sweeps). This is where the versatility comparison to Greninja really breaks down as it had no usage on balance squads really it was just pure offense and wasn't switching into shit whereas SpDef Talon is sorta supposed to but is greatly hindered by rocks.

I definitely agree it's one of the top mons in A+ but Jolly SD has plenty of hard stops. The SpDef sets which I actually think are more difficult to deal with are hindered a lot more by Stealth Rocks as they can't switch in and out so freely. Yes hazard removal is definitely a thing and we can't assume that rocks are always up but the fact that all you have to do is set them up to prevent this mon from doing it's job at maximum capacity is certainly a great hindrance.

Also I don't have the most experience using it but in response to your above post I'd support Infernape to C+.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I do not get all the commotion about Talonflame all of a sudden. S rank for the bird of the hour just seems too generous to me. Granted its SD set and SpD set keep it alive and thriving in the OU meta, yet it moving up to the likes of Megagross and Landorus is a bit too much due to its cripplng weakness to SR and general frailty. Even with max health EVs with the enemy burned, Tyranitar and many other relevant Rock Types (as stated before) OHKO. Granted, you will not stay in on the enemy Rock Type but the fact that it can be forced out and made to face the wrath of Stealth Rocks again and again still stands. Also, Tyranitar can Pursuit trap the Lati twins, removing two very prevalent Defoggers from play. Also, I do not really need to prepare too much for Talonflame, as almost all of my teams have a natural counter to it. Be it Heatran, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Landorus-T, or Gliscor, the natural check to Talonflame makes it only a moderate threat to me and most teams.

When it comes to versatility Talonflame pales in comparison Mega Altaria, who can win the game completely depending on its set. Talonflame can not win the game on its own even if the enemy successfully gets a Swords Dance off, as recoil and the damage dealt by bulky threats will still bring it down. Once the enemy Talonflame shows its core move, the entire set is revealed, unlike Mega Altaria. MAlt showing Dragon Dance still leaves in question which of the three primary DD sets it is. When Talonflame shows its Swords Dance, Will-O-Wisp, or Bulk Up, the set is revealed and can be dealt with rather effectively.

Just my two cents on all this Talonflame talk going around. Talonflame deserves its spot in A+, but it does not deserve a rise to S granted the current meta.

 

[tigers jaw]

i've taken a liking to nasty plot 3 attacks infernape. it has great 3 move coverage between fire blast, focus blast, and grass knot. coupled with nasty plot and life orb, it prospers against common balance and does just as well against full stall. it does struggle against more offensive teams as it's fairly easily revenged by faster shit thanks to its mediocre defences, though. it certainly deserves to rise some by merit of its wallbreaking capabilities as it is a lot better than the stuff it currently sits with. i think it's even better than some of the current B- pokemon, like mega chomp, alomomola and toxicroak.

 

[Martin]

i've taken a liking to nasty plot 3 attacks infernape. it has great 3 move coverage between fire blast, focus blast, and grass knot. coupled with nasty plot and life orb, it prospers against common balance and does just as well against full stall. it does struggle against more offensive teams as it's fairly easily revenged by faster shit thanks to its mediocre defences, though. it certainly deserves to rise some by merit of its wallbreaking capabilities as it is a lot better than the stuff it currently sits with. i think it's even better than some of the current B- pokemon, like mega chomp, alomomola and toxicroak.

The main problem with NP+3 attacks 'nape (if you ignore the burd) was inadvertently highlighted in your post: it uses three rather unreliable attacks to deal its damage. Lets take a look at the moveset you gave us: Fire Blast has 85% accuracy, Focus Miss has 70% accuracy and Grass Knot is reliant on its target's weight. While I understand that Grass Knot's main targets are all rather heavy, it is still a somewhat unreliable, and Infernape has no reliable moves to fall back on. TBH, the way that Infernape functions best is as a lead with SR+Fake Out+Overheat+Close Combat as, tbh, there are better special attackers, and even then Nape isn't very good.

 

[tigers jaw]

there are many pokemon in the upper ranks that rely on unreliable moves to function properly on all or most of their sets, such as lando-i, lando-t, charizard-y, thundurus-i, and azumarill. granted, focus blast misses are a hindrance and are very annoying, but focus blast is there as essentially filler for hitting fire resists such as ttar, heatran and garchomp, and things that are hit harder by focus blast than grass knot. most of the time the appropriate attack to use is fire blast, in my experience, followed by grass knot. on the subject of grass knot's reliability, the majority of the time it outclasses the more accurate energy ball seeing as, like you said, most of its targets are very heavy; furthermore, a few are hit harder by focus blast than they would be by energy ball (rotom, manaphy), or 4x weak to grass.

in all honesty, i really dislike the lead infernape set, and i think it wastes the offensive potential of infernape. i also think the mindset of lead infernape being infernape's best set keeps people from realising that it is in fact a threatening pokemon. i ask you: what special attackers can boost with nasty plot and have stab fire/fighting coverage, with grass coverage to boot, whilst also hitting a respectable speed tier? i can't think of any.

 

[bludz]

Yeah I feel like Infernape has untapped potential beyond the lead sets which I don't find to be all that amazing. I mean a LO mixed attacker set could potentially have brutal coverage as Fire Blast / Close Combat in itself is already pretty good and you can add in moves like Thunderpunch, Grass Knot, Gunk Shot, HP [Ice] and Stone Edge. Also has access to U-turn and a nice speed tier and cool options like Will-O-Wisp.

 

[Galom]

Yeah I feel like Infernape has untapped potential beyond the lead sets which I don't find to be all that amazing. I mean a LO mixed attacker set could potentially have brutal coverage as Fire Blast / Close Combat in itself is already pretty good and you can add in moves like Thunderpunch, Grass Knot, Gunk Shot, HP [Ice] and Stone Edge. Also has access to U-turn and a nice speed tier and cool options like Will-O-Wisp.

Is it even fast enough to do this anymore? Despite usable offensive stats and some nice speed (I guess), just way too many very, very common Pokemon just come in on and abuse Infernape: Lati@s to Defog and Altaria to set up to name a few.

And that's completely ignoring the fact that 110 is the new "fast"--a criterion that Infernape falls short of.

 

[QueenOfHax]

My 2 cents about Talonflame...

Here's how I view the upper ranks:
-if you don't specifically prepare for this pokemon, you have a good chance of losing -> A+ rank
-if you don't specifically prepare for this pokemon, you outright lose -> S rank
-even if you specifically prepare for this pokemon, you might still lose -> Uber

Talonflame fits the first criteria, since it has a relatively large number of checks and counters. Stuff like Keldeo and Mega Metagross on the other hand have the ability to bulldoze past their checks for a reason or another (sheer power, Scald burns, Zen Heabutt flinches and so on). The same can't be said about Talonflame.

 

[bludz]

Is it even fast enough to do this anymore? Despite usable offensive stats and some nice speed (I guess), just way too many very, very common Pokemon just come in on and abuse Infernape: Lati@s to Defog and Altaria to set up to name a few.

For sure Latis are a problem but like I said Gunk Shot is a nice coverage move that does a ton to even Bulky Altarias. I haven't tried it so I'm just theorizing but I mean there are much slower wallbreakers in the tier and 108 speed is definitely usable. I'm not advocating it as definitely a good wallbreaker or anything but I feel like the lead set being its best just might not be true since it has a pretty diverse movepool and a good typing + speed.

 

[firehusky]

Yeah mixed infernape is something that I've tried out a bit and it's actually pretty hard to counter. Infernape has great mixed attacking stats and a ton of cool coverage moves that make it pretty unpredictable. Mixed infernape is pretty nice as a bunch of its counters can be taken out by coverage moves (kind of similar to lando-I I guess), altaria mega gets hit hard by gunk shot, azumarill by thunder punch or grass knot, hippowdon by grass knot, etc. Defensive infernape also handles pokemon such as SD Mega scizor and bisharp pretty well, while also having wisp to burn physical attackers and reliable recovery in slack off.

 

[North Gate]

Just saying, bar Zard Y, at least said mons that tigers jaw mentioned don't have to rely on those unreliable moves as STABs.

 

[tigers jaw]

play rough is not 100% accurate, and azumarill runs that. regardless, fire blast is the go-to option over flamethrower for most special-attacking fire types, so that kinda falls as a moot point. in fact, whether or not something is reliable as stab move or reliable as coverage doesn't matter in terms of a pokemon functioning properly, ie: focus blast on thundurus-i. as long as it allows a certain pokemon to break other pokemon that would reliably beat it, should it not have said coverage is really all that matters (going back to special thundurus, ferrothorn would wall and beat it if it did not have focus blast as a coverage option). STAB is just a Bonus.

Gallade Lv. ✘ regarding your post: as stated by bludz, there are much slower wallbreakers in the tier, such as kyurem-b. the additional points of speed are just a boon, allowing it to get the jump on a few more threats. going by your logic, both latios and keldeo should move down, as defensive altaria can abuse them after switching in by setting up. everything (nearly) has counters and things that can abuse them, it's part of the game.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

play rough is not 100% accurate, and azumarill runs that. regardless, fire blast is the go-to option over flamethrower for most special-attacking fire types, so that kinda falls as a moot point. in fact, whether or not something is reliable as stab move or reliable as coverage doesn't matter in terms of a pokemon functioning properly, ie: focus blast on thundurus-i. as long as it allows a certain pokemon to break other pokemon that would reliably beat it, should it not have said coverage is really all that matters (going back to special thundurus, ferrothorn would wall and beat it if it did not have focus blast as a coverage option). STAB is just a Bonus.

Gallade Lv. ✘ regarding your post: as stated by bludz, there are much slower wallbreakers in the tier, such as kyurem-b. the additional points of speed are just a boon, allowing it to get the jump on a few more threats. going by your logic, both latios and keldeo should move down, as defensive altaria can abuse them after switching in by setting up. everything (nearly) has counters and things that can abuse them, it's part of the game.

Eh, I'm not sure that 90% accuracy is low enough for Play Rough to be considered "unreliable". It doesn't have perfect accuracy, but I've still only rarely missed with it. Granted, "rarely" is not "never", but honestly, Play Rough is generally fairly reliable. The slightly lower accuracy is just one point that needs to be taken into consideration. And no, the fact that Fire Blast is only 5% less accurate is not a good counterargument. The difference is actually quite noticeable. Run the two on the same team, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

With that NP Ape set, however, I am suddenly reminded of a meme: "fucking blind bird". In case you're not familiar, that meme refers to Moltres, which was one of the best Pokemon in RU (as I understand, since I don't generally play RU myself) prior to it being suspected and banned in RU, which was very difficult to counter in RU, but had two major weaknesses: a 4x weakness to SR, and a reliance on Hurricane and Fire Blast as its strongest STAB attacks. Between Fire Blast and Focus Blast, Infernape has the same problem with that set (right down to the accuracy of the two moves). However, as I said, there weren't as many things that could stand up well to Moltres due to the generally slower and weaker Pokemon relegated to RU. In OU, however, most teams are already carrying several of Infernape's counters, which is why he's not heavily used in the first place. Because of that, it's a lot harder to justify running a set that relies on lower accuracy moves for its STAB moves. And that's the other key difference, by the way. Thundurus and some of the others you mentioned rely on those moves for coverage, but their STAB attacks tend to be pretty reliable.

Honestly, I don't think this "fucking blind monkey" set is bad, but I think it has some major problems that you're trying to downplay a bit, that do hurt its viability by a significant margin. Is it worth a B-? Eh, I'm not sure. Some of the things in B- right now are there because while they are only good on specific teams, they are REALLY good on those teams. Mega Garchomp, as I noted a page or two ago, has no place outside of sand teams, but on sand teams, it is an absolute monster that can demolish balanced and stall teams, and even put a dent in offensive teams if played correctly. Honestly, this set's unreliability does hurt it a bit. It's still an effective Wallbreaker though, and the meta does seem to be heading in a direction where it could be a bit more useful. I don't think I'd support I rise to B-, but I might support a rise to C+.

Also, there's a very big difference between Latios and Keldeo, and Infernape. The logic you gave in response to the guy you quoted doesn't necessarily apply to them, because while they do have counters, they're much more capable of crippling those counters on the switch-in than things like Infernape are. Keldeo can punish most of its counters with a Scald burn, or at least a noticeable dent in HP as they switch in, while Latios has started carrying Earthquake, since quite a few of its common switch-ins have a weakness to it. Plus, while defensive DD Mega Altaria can take advantage of them, it's also not too hard to take advantage of defensive M-Altaria's necessity to set up in order to have any chance of doing good damage. Hence, why that set is the lowest ranked M-Altaria set over on the OU sets viability thread.

 

[tigers jaw]

In OU, however, most teams are already carrying several of Infernape's counters, which is why he's not heavily used in the first place. Because of that, it's a lot harder to justify running a set that relies on lower accuracy moves for its STAB moves. And that's the other key difference, by the way. Thundurus and some of the others you mentioned rely on those moves for coverage, but their STAB attacks tend to be pretty reliable.

honestly, i think the first section of this is a poor and baseless argument. have you actually looked at teams lately and decided whether or not infernape would be effective against them, or are you just pulling that out of thin air? i specifically stated that it should rise because of its performance vs. defensive teams; on which, there are few pokemon that can successfully wall np infernape. as for you disputing my point on stab vs. non stab, look at it with a more open mindset, and you'll see what i mean. the majority of the time, you are using fire blast, and as i stated before, focus blast acts as filler (in the same way as you'd refer to focus blast on thundurus, focus blast on landorus-i, or stone edge on landorus-t as coverage.) for a few specific fire-resists. people are obsessed with stab attacks, and they see them as some sort of huge boon for a pokemon to have, but there's a reason altaria doesn't (usually) run a dragon move, or heatran doesn't always run flash cannon.

Honestly, I don't think this "fucking blind monkey" set is bad, but I think it has some major problems that you're trying to downplay a bit, that do hurt its viability by a significant margin. Is it worth a B-? Eh, I'm not sure. Some of the things in B- right now are there because while they are only good on specific teams, they are REALLY good on those teams. Mega Garchomp, as I noted a page or two ago, has no place outside of sand teams, but on sand teams, it is an absolute monster that can demolish balanced and stall teams, and even put a dent in offensive teams if played correctly. Honestly, this set's unreliability does hurt it a bit. It's still an effective Wallbreaker though, and the meta does seem to be heading in a direction where it could be a bit more useful. I don't think I'd support I rise to B-, but I might support a rise to C+.

here are the, what you call, "major" problems with this set: 1. focus blast accuracy (not counting fire blast because it is ok when zard does it) 2. it is revenge killed/checked by offence with relative ease. i've addressed people's concerns with focus blast already, but as for it being checked by faster shit, i don't care, and i shouldn't care. i'm using it to break balance and stall, not to crush offence. if i want to beat offence i'll use something like sand rush driller or mega mane. as for mega garchomp, lol, it is something that special little snowflakes use. it's terrible, and i am not wasting sand turns when i can hit almost as hard/harder depending on the mega garchomp spread and break the same stuff (barring like skarmory in the case of driller) using life orb sd driller or sd fire blast life orb regular chomp. if you can find me a recent tour game (or some good ladder games) in which sand+mega garchomp did some serious work that couldn't have been achieved with regular garchomp or sd driller, i'll maybe reconsider my stance on this, but for now i'm gonna retain my belief that mega garchomp is 100% a waste of a mega slot and absolutely terrible.

Also, there's a very big difference between Latios and Keldeo, and Infernape. The logic you gave in response to the guy you quoted doesn't necessarily apply to them, because while they do have counters, they're much more capable of crippling those counters on the switch-in than things like Infernape are. Keldeo can punish most of its counters with a Scald burn, or at least a noticeable dent in HP as they switch in, while Latios has started carrying Earthquake, since quite a few of its common switch-ins have a weakness to it. Plus, while defensive DD Mega Altaria can take advantage of them, it's also not too hard to take advantage of defensive M-Altaria's necessity to set up in order to have any chance of doing good damage. Hence, why that set is the lowest ranked M-Altaria set over on the OU sets viability thread.

the logic i gave applied directly to those scenarios. i wasn't questioning their abilities to cripple switchins (but if you want, i can say that i am now choosing to run u-turn mixed infernape to turn into scarftar on latis). i was looking at specific scenarios and giving examples, just as s/he did. i could have chosen a scenario in which celebi was switching into sb cm keldeo, or mega venusaur was switching into av azumarill, or rotom-w was switching into sd talonflame. regarding your statement about latios and keldeo being able to cripple their common switchins more than infernape, are you sure? have you seen infernapes movepool?

we're on the same page about altaria, right? the cotton guard+dd set that prevents almost every reliable revenge killer that can revenge the offensive dd set from actually revenging it, and allows it to set up on pretty much every physical switchin for standard mega altaria? it is far from the worst altaria set, as it actually utilises mega altaria's great bulk and typing. once again, though, that was just an example.

editing this in here because i just thought of it: i am not asking for it to go to like, a- or anything radical, i just think it deserves a raise to c+, maybe even b-. look at the things it currently resides with (mega camerupt, mega blastoise, p2, goodra, for example). it is better than everything in c-rank, and everything in c+ (barring cobalion and bronzong, both of which also deserve some focus right now). also, i'll have to respond to any posts tomorrow, it's late lol

 

[firehusky]

Nominating Raikou to A

I think raikou should be A. The closest comparison to raikou is mega manectric; both are fast electric-types that can grab momentum with volt switch and check flying-types such as mega pinsir and talonflame. There are some key differences though. Raikou is slower, so it is slower than stuff like talonflame (when greninja was still OU this was actually really major but with the ninja gone raikou only got better), raikou has better all around bulk, most notably its special bulk which can be further increased by assault vest, and raikou is weaker without a choice specs. Mega manectric has fire-type coverage with overheat, as well as intimidate which allows it to check pokemon such as talonflame much better. Mega manectric also takes up the mega slot. I know this is mostly considered a bad foundation for an argument, but mega manectric has lots of opportunity cost, as it uses up your mega. This is actually a pretty big deal since there are a lot more good BO / HO megas to choose from in ORAS than in XY, such as mega lopunny, mega metagross, etc. The other thing about raikou is that it can hold an item. It often runs AV, making it a great check to gengar and nasty plot thundurus-i, while choice specs sets can deal with suicune and mega slowbro after a CM.

Mega manectric's extra speed, intimidate, and fire coverage can definitely be useful at times, but raikou's ability to hold an item which allows it to handle a lot more threats as well as better bulk and less opportunity cost put it on about the same level as mega manectric.

 

[Jimmy L]

^ In addition to the above, its versatility makes it AT LEAST as as good as Mega-Man in my eyes IMO. When you see a Raikou, you need to work out what it could be carrying or which item it may have, whereas with mega-man, you KNOW it's going to be running VS, Tbolt, HP ice and a fire move.

I've been using the AV set a lot lately and it's very good at sponging hits and switching straight back out to give you the momentum. In addition, most common things that are immune to the VS are hit hard by HP ice. Even though Mega-man is faster, the main thing that threatens both of them in a 1v1 outspeeds them both anyway. (Scarf Lando-T)

I haven't used the specs set but its speed combined with the possible coverage it can have (electric, ice, ghost/psychic hits a large chunk of mons for SE damage) and base 115 SpA (not incredible but nothing to turn your nose up at either) potentially takes a chunk out of your opponent's team.

It's not perfect, otherwise it would be far higher, but the roles it fills in OU means it should move to A. If you look at the definition of an A poke, it says

Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

For me Raikou sums A up perfectly. You can stick a Raikou on your team and it will fill a role without needing much support. The sentence reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame also sums up why Raikou won't go any higher up in A. It cannot sweep the tier, nor wall it but it can support any team. If I'm looking at an A+ mon, I'm looking at something that can do 2 of the 3 things listed above.

This is my first nomination/support of a mon (i did nom Raikou about a week ago but I was tired and did no explanation oops) so my arguments aren't probably great but I've tried to show why I think Raikou is fantastic in the current meta game.

Raikou to A!

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Alright, before you completely jump down my throat, I would like to say that you actually did win me over somewhat, so while I'm not sure it's as good as everything in B-, it certainly does seem better than a C+. So, at this point, I'd probably be fine with it in either ranking. However, I still want to respond to some of your arguments

honestly, i think the first section of this is a poor and baseless argument. have you actually looked at teams lately and decided whether or not infernape would be effective against them, or are you just pulling that out of thin air? i specifically stated that it should rise because of its performance vs. defensive teams; on which, there are few pokemon that can successfully wall np infernape.

I'm not a great player, but I'm not an ignoramus either. I've been playing lately, so yeah, I know what teams are out there. The thing of it is, Infernape is terrific against pure stall. And there's plenty of those around. However, the vast majority of teams these days are balance teams. And the point of balance teams is, they're not just running defensive pokemon. And, the reason I say Infernape is already well prepared for is because tons of stuff that can kill it easily 1v1 is already common in this meta, even on balanced teams, like the Latis, Talonflame, Keldeo, Lando, Starmie, and plenty more. Now, Infernape can easily take on the defensive Pokemon on those teams, but as you yourself admitted, it'll fall flat against many of these offensive mons those teams will be carrying, unless you are perfect with your predictions. Now, to be fair, that's a characteristic of many wallbreakers. However, there's one key thing about Infernape that needs to be remembered. Base 104 in both attacking stats used to be pretty good, but now it leaves quite a bit to be desired. In order to reliably kill certain mons, it's gonna need to get at least 1 NP up. Now, that's pretty easy on the switch...unless your opponent switches into something that can kill Infernape, that Infernape can't outspeed. Like say, SpD Talonflame, SpD Gliscor, Keldeo, Lando, etc. If one of them comes out, you're forced out, and you lose momentum. So, if one of those is still around, you're forced to attack on the switch with Infernape, and then probably switch out. And unlike almost every other popular wallbreaker right now, Infernape doesn't have as much power to dent them (with the exception of Grass Knot on Keldeo, if you predict it correctly). Again, this is a problem with many wallbreakers, but Infernape seems to have it worse than some others thanks to relying on two lower than average accuracy attacks, and having rather low bulk and some common weaknesses.

as for you disputing my point on stab vs. non stab, look at it with a more open mindset, and you'll see what i mean. the majority of the time, you are using fire blast, and as i stated before, focus blast acts as filler (in the same way as you'd refer to focus blast on thundurus, focus blast on landorus-i, or stone edge on landorus-t as coverage.) for a few specific fire-resists. people are obsessed with stab attacks, and they see them as some sort of huge boon for a pokemon to have, but there's a reason altaria doesn't (usually) run a dragon move, or heatran doesn't always run flash cannon.

Uh, hate to break it to you, but Focus Blast is not simply filler. It's extremely important for taking down Pokemon like Chansey, Heatran, and a few others. And considering that Infernape's role is to be a WALLBREAKER, and those are two Pokemon commonly used as walls that Infernape couldn't do much to otherwise, it can't effectively fulfill its role without having a Fighting attack. Which means having Focus Blast on this set isn't simply for extra coverage, it's an essential move, even if Fire Blast is the one you spam the majority of the time.

Oh, by the way, Focus Blast is a STAB attack regardless of whether you're explicitly running it for that reason. I never said that was THE reason you're running Focus Blast, I just described as such to save time. I mean, technically ALL attacks are for coverage. And yes, plenty of Pokemon don't need both STAB attacks, such as the two cases you mentioned, since a Fairy type attack (or Ground/Fire/whatever, depending on what set you're running) gives Altaria pretty good coverage anyway, and Heatran doesn't really need Flash Cannon most of the time, since it walls most Fairies anyway, it really only needs it if it's an offensive variant that desperately needs to hit MegaGarde or Mega Diancie on the switch. But, as I said above, that's not really the case with Infernape. Infernape is really only effective at what it does at all because it has Fire and Fighting STAB, and it needs both.

here are the, what you call, "major" problems with this set: 1. focus blast accuracy (not counting fire blast because it is ok when zard does it)

Yeah, but Zard Y doesn't rely on TWO moves with that low of an accuracy. Plus, the fact that Fire Blast has slightly low accuracy is not an insignificant concern to players using things like Zard Y. It's hardly the greatest concern, true, but I'd reckon that nearly every player who routinely uses Zard Y, or any other Pokemon using a low accuracy move, can relate at least one story about how they lost an important match badly because they missed with that move. If you'd like, I could relate the story about the time that I lost a match with a Mega Aero team I was experimenting with because I missed three consecutive times with Stone Miss (and yes, I realize that it does have 5% less accuracy than Fire Blast, which I already discussed as being significant in my previous post, I'm just using it as one particularly egregious personal example of what I'm talking about).

2. it is revenge killed/checked by offence with relative ease. i've addressed people's concerns with focus blast already, but as for it being checked by faster shit, i don't care, and i shouldn't care. i'm using it to break balance and stall, not to crush offence. if i want to beat offence i'll use something like sand rush driller or mega mane. as for mega garchomp, lol, it is something that special little snowflakes use. it's terrible, and i am not wasting sand turns when i can hit almost as hard/harder depending on the mega garchomp spread and break the same stuff (barring like skarmory in the case of driller) using life orb sd driller or sd fire blast life orb regular chomp. if you can find me a recent tour game (or some good ladder games) in which sand+mega garchomp did some serious work that couldn't have been achieved with regular garchomp or sd driller, i'll maybe reconsider my stance on this, but for now i'm gonna retain my belief that mega garchomp is 100% a waste of a mega slot and absolutely terrible.

Tell you what, you post a few good high-ladder or tour replays of Infernape working as well against Defensive or Balanced teams as you're describing, and I'll see if I can find some of Mega Garchomp doing as well as I think it could. Sound good?

No really, I'm not trying to sound snotty here, I'm actually curious to see how both Infernape and MegaChomp work in practice rather than just theorymoning.

the logic i gave applied directly to those scenarios. i wasn't questioning their abilities to cripple switchins (but if you want, i can say that i am now choosing to run u-turn mixed infernape to turn into scarftar on latis). i was looking at specific scenarios and giving examples, just as s/he did. i could have chosen a scenario in which celebi was switching into sb cm keldeo, or mega venusaur was switching into av azumarill, or rotom-w was switching into sd talonflame. regarding your statement about latios and keldeo being able to cripple their common switchins more than infernape, are you sure? have you seen infernapes movepool?

Well, Infernape's my favorite Gen 4 starter, so yeah, I've seen its movepool. I was just going by the four moves you mentioned in your initial post, and leaving out stuff like Will-O-Wisp or other status moves.

we're on the same page about altaria, right? the cotton guard+dd set that prevents almost every reliable revenge killer that can revenge the offensive dd set from actually revenging it, and allows it to set up on pretty much every physical switchin for standard mega altaria? it is far from the worst altaria set, as it actually utilises mega altaria's great bulk and typing. once again, though, that was just an example.

Actually, I was thinking of the Defensive DD set, not the Cotton Guard one. So, yeah, you got me there.

editing this in here because i just thought of it: i am not asking for it to go to like, a- or anything radical, i just think it deserves a raise to c+, maybe even b-. look at the things it currently resides with (mega camerupt, mega blastoise, p2, goodra, for example). it is better than everything in c-rank, and everything in c+ (barring cobalion and bronzong, both of which also deserve some focus right now). also, i'll have to respond to any posts tomorrow, it's late lol

Alright, you've got a point there. While I'm still not completely convinced that it's as good as you say in practice, it certainly does seem to be a fair bit better than most of the stuff currently in C+. So, if there's a larger push for it to go to B-, I'd support it. I just want to make sure that you recognize that Infernape does hav some major flaws that should not be ignored when arguing for it.

EDIT: Also, while I don't have a lot of time to write out a big rationale at the moment (I may edit one in later), I also support Raikou going to A.

 

[aim]

Garchomp A -> A+

Besides being one of the most solid stealth rocker(s) in the game it is able to check bisharp, talonflame, ice punchless gross/lopunny as well as weakening physical walls like landorus-t with toxic + rocky helmet/rough skin as well as taking on ferrothorn/skarmory with the defensive set in fire blast it can also run various other sets that "do their job" as in choice scarf to revenge kill as well as SD, lum, sash, yache etc. has a very nice speed tier and amazing bulk as well as the power to boot. it can easily fit on any type of team and is offenses go to bird check. deserving of A+ imo

 

[Anduril]

Darth Darkrai Infernape's Close Combat hits Chansey and Heatran much harder that Focus Blast, even with minimal investment. Infernape has enough options to move up, it can run defensive and offensive sets to decent success, and it's big movepool gives it enough options to get past what the team struggles with. I can definitely see it a rank above; it's just better than the things in its current rank.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Darth Darkrai Infernape's Close Combat hits Chansey and Heatran much harder that Focus Blast, even with minimal investment. Infernape has enough options to move up, it can run defensive and offensive sets to decent success, and it's big movepool gives it enough options to get past what the team struggles with. I can definitely see it a rank above; it's just better than the things in its current rank.

Yeah, I realize that Close Combat's better. I was using Focus Blast as the example because the OP did.

And yeah, I really wasn't taking other sets into account when discussing it moving up. Honestly, the amount of sets it has is pretty good, and in thinking about it, I'm really not sure why it's still in C by this point.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Balance can easily afford to run general checks to Talonflame on any given team without compromising the entirety of a build, having to use a sure fire way to handle it, or use generally shitty gimmicks. Scarftar, Hippowdon, fat waters, water pivots, M-Aerodactyl, M-Diancie just to name a select handful.

To be fair, Hippo and aero don't appreciate burns. Natural gift, although a bit gimmicky, can screw bulky waters (especially since most lack reliable recovery), diancie doesn't like steel wing, and Tyranitar can't exactly switch into will-o or U-turn.

Tbh, there isn't any 100% reliable answers to talonflame, like lando-i. We look at mainly the current standard talonflame sets, but if you dive deeper, and actually get innovative, talonflame can still muscle pass what we use as talonflame checks today.

There's also the overcentralization issue with the bird, considering talonflame is basicly a "slap on the team, answer half the metagame" mon completely destroying volcarona, serperior, hawlucha, breloom, gallade, medicham, pinsir, conk, venasaur, and a few other UU and BL mons that would rise but I don't want to cause theorymon. The viability of a couple pokemon also are lingering solely because of talonflame's presense, namely zapdos, raikou, and manectic.. who are otherwise rather mediocre or outclassed in their roles by something else. I could also add the CB priority BB hits like a truck and OHKO's several things such as Zard Y and Starmie, but I think I may be scretching it a bit there as a cleaner which anything with a scarf can really fit as.

I agree it's not one of those mons that strain teambuilding into providing answers to it, but if you do not have any answers too it, especially if it is running the set to muscle pass your one answer, it devastates and pretty much decides the game at team preview.

I have a number of problems with this argument is that it is indicating that you can compare Garchomp to Mega Garchomp in their roles, and it seems like you have misinterpreted what he said. He said that you can mega evolve it later in the match, and tbh if you are saying that is a wasted mega slot to not mega it is a lot like saying that Mega Sableye is a waste of a moveslot, as it is used in conjunction with base sableye to achieve maximum effect. Garchomp is like this, utilising its base form when it needs to maintain its speed tier and utilising its mega form when it wants to really wallbreak. Additionally, I like using the mega stone to bluff items such as Draco/Earth Plate, and it means that it is very easy to hide the fact that it is mega until it is needed.

Also why are you saying that it cant beat Latios when you shouldn't be using Garchomp to beat Lati@s in the first place? It outpacing non-scarf Latios is not really a good excuse to use (the somewhat mediocre) ScarfChomp in the first place, and beating them is what you have a team for - its why things like Tyranitar exist, so idk why u are suggesting that it is a bad thing that it needs Tyranitar to even touch it once it is on the field.
for those of you who saw my Politoed post before it got deleted, yes i know I'm a bit of a hypocrite when talking about teammates but i was tired when i wrote about Politoed so shush

I think you missed a point.. I'm simply disagreeing with a M-Garchomp rise because of it's opportunity cost. Running Sableye doesn't come with an opportunity cost because he supports the entire team.. it's vice versa with megachomp where the entire team supports him, including tyranitar.. when instead you could be running vanilia garchomp with better revenge killing potential and another mega rather than running garchomp as your mega, which you may never even want to use depending on team matchup.

With Vanilla chomp, he's not dead weight and has supporting potential (SR) and revenge killing potential (scarf for the latis) which he can do on his own without the support of another pokemon (t-tar having to pursuit the latis). MegaChomp just isn't worth running the majority of the time over vanilia chomp.

He destroys stall yes, however what else can he really do on the field outside of destroying stall?

 

[Flamer]

A lot of you are viewing infernape in the entirely wrong way. Its lead set, while ok, is hardly napes saving grace. Likewise, the NP set has several issues which make it a somwhat unreliable sweeper. I personally favour 2 particular infernape sets, the mixed attacker and the Physically defensive set. Mixape is one of the best mons at breaking through common defensive and some offensive cores. With the majority of teams atm relying on Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Scizor, MVenusaur, Slowbro, TTar, Celebi, the Pink Blobs and Heatran as parts of a defensive core, Infernape is essentially free to switch in and threaten all of these. Granted its somewhat reliant on prediction but you generally can't go wrong by just clicking Fire Blast + Coverage move. Speaking of coverage, Infernape has one of the widest movepools I've ever seen that can be catered to virtually anything you want. Fire Blast and Close combat are both guaranteed to be on the set, Grass knot beat Slowbro and Hippo, Mach Punch is relatively strong and great for taking out weakened speedsters and priority users (this occurs much more in practice than it does in theory), HP Ice is generally outclassed as the Lati Twins take a buttload from CC anyway but can be useful for mons like chomp and Lando-T, Thunderpunch beats other bulky waters which GK doesnt, Stone edge for The zards and talonflame and theres a whole host more. While some may call this 4mss, its really quite different. You dont lose viability by opting to run one over the other, you just get to beat an extra mon over the general purpose of beating mons like tran and ferro. Like I said before, you generally will be spamming FB and then the appropriate coverage move.

Infernape, despite its middling defensive stats, has a great defensive set which I personally love using and is a pain in the ass for other teams to face. Would-be counters like Azumarill, Scarf Lando, Rocky Chomp and more all get wisped on the switch, taking them out for the match. Its also one of the most reliable counters to Bisharp in the entire game, not only can it switch in for free, even when weakened it can still heal up or get a last minute wisp off without risking any 50/50s at all. Its also a great answer to stall teams, beating all common stall mons except sableye (who cant do anything back and isnt really that had to beat) while also being very hard to wear down.

Furthurmore, unlike the majority of the lower ranks, Infernape can actually fit on a wide variety of teams and is not really outclassed by anything in the higher ranks. Mons like Tyrantrum are ok but theyre honestly very difficult to fit on a team. The closest thing you can really compare nape to is Keldeo however, nape has key advantages that mean its a better fit for certain teams compared to pony. The first is a much more versatile movepool. Spamming Scald can only get you so far in a meta where there are 3 natural cure users that outright wall keldeo and not only that, are able to use it as setup fodder. A reliance on choice moves is another. Keldeo might have the higher base stats but with its most powerful accurate move coming in at a spectacular base power of 85, it doesnt hit as hard as it should. Thats not even mentioning its trash coverage, I mean 55 BP Icy wind isnt scaring much. Infernape on the other hand has both high base power STABs and high BP coverage, meaning its lower offensive stats are more than compensated for. The reliance on choice items also means Keldeo doesnt actually beat mons it should just because it needs to predict switches much more often. A comparison I like to make is a smart bomb to a super powerful unguided missile. Keldeo is the big missile, it does lots of damage but is not very forgiving of error and thus must be carefully used. Infernape is the smart bomb, weaker but able to do more damage to key structures, meaning it often does more meaningful work in the long run.

Unlike it's fellow fire types, nape requires little to no support, in fact, Id be more inclined to say Infernape supports its team rather than the opposite. It lacks a SR weakness, breaks through defensive cores without breaking a sweat and pressures offensive teams. The only real support it needs is a good defensive pivot, which youd be lying if you said every mon didnt need this. Compared to the rest of C and even C+, infernape is much easier to fit on teams and does a lot more work, M Absol and Camerupt are both not only difficult to fit on teams but decidedly mediocre. Ive never actually said to myself "this team would be great with a Goodra on it" or "I definitely need an Entei" but I often find I need one of napes many sets to fill a particular role simply because its so versatile.

Being weak to talonflame is a bummer but then again, considering all of S lose to multiple talonflame sets (except in some cases Altaria) Id be inclined to forgive and forget. Infernape is also pretty reliant on double switches to bet in safely but once hes in, its very hard to prevent your team from being damaged. Even with these issues, nape is still leagues ahead of most of both C and C+

Below are two replays which show off my two personal favourite infernape sets, note that they both fit on the same team thus making it unpredictable. Theyre both not spectacular replays by any means but they certainly show how effective infernape can be.
Offensive
Defensive
Also here is my previous post on nape

 

[Vryheid]

On the surface, the comparison between Keldeo and Infernape is a good one- they're sitting on the same speed, they have similar mixed wallbreaking potential, and deal with a lot of the same counters and checks. On the other hand, this unfairly downplays Keldeo's primary function for many teams- an offensive check to a number of dangerous sweepers and other major metagame threats. Not only can Keldeo's Specs set outspeed and OHKO top tier threats like Landorus, Garchomp, Thundurus, Bisharp, Mega Charizard, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp and others, it also has the bulk to often survive neutral hits in 1v1 situations even when it gets outsped. These situations are where Infernape tends to fail miserably at in comparison:

Hide

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 291-343 (99.3 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 298-352 (101.7 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 338-398 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 337-398 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 277-328 (85.7 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

There's a whole lot more examples than this, but those extra base stats pretty much speak for themselves. Even outside of 1v1 situations, just being able to switch into a lot of a common attacks such as Landorus' Earth Power or a random Draco Meteor from just about any Dragon type without immediately getting KOd can help shift momentum and counter threats in ways Infernape can't hope to match. It's arguable whether or not Fire/Fighting or Water/Fighting makes better offensive typing (they both have a number of Pokemon that they each have an easier or harder time with), but I will say that Ground-type moves are so common these days that Infernape is constantly at risk switching into Pokemon like Heatran or Tyranitar that its supposed to checking. Sure, Keldeo gets a Electric and Grass type weakness that Infernape doesn't have to deal with, but those coverage types are so much less common that switching into many bulky attackers is rarely an issue.

I will say that Infernape tends to be just as threatening as Keldeo in a wallbreaking capacity, and Overheat + Close Combat is just as deadly as Secret Sword + Hydro Pump in blasting through the Chansey/Skarm based defensive cores that you mentioned above. If there was no Keldeo I think this capacity alone would warrant putting much higher in the viability rankings, but since it's so overwhelmingly outclassed as an offensive check I don't this is enough to justify raising it's rank.

If you can show me some specific instances where Infernape would be more useful as an offensive check than Keldeo I'd be more inclined to accept your argument.

 

[Flamer]

On the surface, the comparison between Keldeo and Infernape is a good one- they're sitting on the same speed, they have similar mixed wallbreaking potential, and deal with a lot of the same counters and checks. On the other hand, this unfairly downplays Keldeo's primary function for many teams- an offensive check to a number of dangerous sweepers and other major metagame threats. Not only can Keldeo's Specs set outspeed and OHKO top tier threats like Landorus, Garchomp, Thundurus, Bisharp, Mega Charizard, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp and others, it also has the bulk to often survive neutral hits in 1v1 situations even when it gets outsped. These situations are where Infernape tends to fail miserably at in comparison:

Hide

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 291-343 (99.3 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 298-352 (101.7 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 338-398 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 337-398 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 277-328 (85.7 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

There's a whole lot more examples than this, but those extra base stats pretty much speak for themselves. Even outside of 1v1 situations, just being able to switch into a lot of a common attacks such as Landorus' Earth Power or a random Draco Meteor from just about any Dragon type without immediately getting KOd can help shift momentum and counter threats in ways Infernape can't hope to match. It's arguable whether or not Fire/Fighting or Water/Fighting makes better offensive typing (they both have a number of Pokemon that they each have an easier or harder time with), but I will say that Ground-type moves are so common these days that Infernape is constantly at risk switching into Pokemon like Heatran or Tyranitar that its supposed to checking. Sure, Keldeo gets a Electric and Grass type weakness that Infernape doesn't have to deal with, but those coverage types are so much less common that switching into many bulky attackers is rarely an issue.

I will say that Infernape tends to be just as threatening as Keldeo in a wallbreaking capacity, and Overheat + Close Combat is just as deadly as Secret Sword + Hydro Pump in blasting through the Chansey/Skarm based defensive cores that you mentioned above. If there was no Keldeo I think this capacity alone would warrant putting much higher in the viability rankings, but since it's so overwhelmingly outclassed as an offensive check I don't this is enough to justify raising it's rank.

If you can show me some specific instances where Infernape would be more useful as an offensive check than Keldeo I'd be more inclined to accept your argument.

By no means did I say Keldeo didnt do a lot of things better than nape, thats after all why its in S. Being an offensive check to a lot of common mons is one such reason. What I meant by my post is that while Keldeo can do many things very well, it fails in many sections where infernape shines. Also note I said "The closest thing you can compare Infernape to is Keldeo," not "Keldeo and Infernape are identical."

Youre completely right in saying the keldeo and infernape comparison only appears good on the surface, thats the whole reason why I brought it up. Everyone believes that they share the exact same role when in fact Keldeo and Infernape have very different roles. Infernape is designed to roast annoying defensive cores to pave the way for a another mon to sweep while Keldeo is more suited to weakening counters with scald burns to the point where it cleans through them. I want infernape to move up for all the reasons that differentiate it from other mons, not because its a Keldeo clone, which it isnt.