Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

[Banedon]

I played FlareBlitz with this to defend against rain:

Max / max Def Venusaur
252 HP / 72 Def Milotic (with HP Grass)
2x Dual Screeners

I think I could've won, but the game is really knife-edged. If I make one mistake I'm done for, for example in our second game I had a Milotic who was taking 24% damage from Toxic Poison and I swapped out to Uxie (one of my screeners). That same turn FlareBlitz U-turned out to Kabutops, which let him get +4 Swords Dance vs. my Reflect. With both Venusaur and Milotic at ~50% and 3 layers of spikes down, the game ended right there. I might've been able to save the game by leaving Milotic in one more turn, taking big damage from Toxic + U-Turn but hopefully recovering enough via Recover + Leftovers to survive another switch in. Might have. That's why I said it's a knife edge.

I'm concluding that rain is a bit too powerful at the moment. Rain without Damp Rock would die (5 turns is too short), but Rain with it is just very ferocious indeed. A 6 or 7 turn Rain Dance would be more balanced, but it can't be implemented without breaking from the game.

I believe in allowing all kinds of playstyles to be viable, no matter how boring / stallish / lame / skill-less they are. It doesn't matter as long as they aren't overpoweringly overpowered. This particular playstyle though crosses that line. If we can't have a 6/7 turn Rain, then better one less playstyle than a single dominating one, and I'll support Damp Rock for BL.

PS: I like your relaxed way of playing RainDance FlareBlitz, it's totally different from the other RD players I see. Other RD teams treasure their rain turns so much they'd leave Pokemon in to die and do not switch out. But you were perfectly happy to stall out your own rain turns to rack Toxic damage up on my Milotic, eventually opening a gap that you can exploit. Nicely done.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I'm going to bump this thread due to lack of discussion on what's probably going to be a suspect soon. We've already heard from plenty of people about just how effective rain is (although it's always good to hear more), but it seems that people who don't think it's broken don't have much to say about it.

 

[HR.]

I'm going to bump this thread due to lack of discussion on what's probably going to be a suspect soon. We've already heard from plenty of people about just how effective rain is (although it's always good to hear more), but it seems that people who don't think it's broken don't have much to say about it.

Rain by itself isn't broken imo, but Spikes + Rain. Oh boy, that's a different story.

 

[Golden Sun]

I'm going to bump this thread due to lack of discussion on what's probably going to be a suspect soon. We've already heard from plenty of people about just how effective rain is (although it's always good to hear more), but it seems that people who don't think it's broken don't have much to say about it.

It can be broken IMO. I used to think it was easy enough to beat but after you beating me with it I'm sort of 50/50 now. I battled you twice with and I came out victorious once and you won once. I think that a team that is prepared for rain (like Jamasha's) will usually come out on top providing there's no hax.

 

[Smurf.]

Here is my paragraph/nomination, all you nay sayers can rebut.


I am nominating Damp Rock under the support charateristic.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Similarly, I would understand that an item is broken if it can consistently set up a situation which makes it ridiculously easy for pokemon to sweep.

The problem with Damp rock supported Rain is that it allows a full 7 turns of pure sweeping, enough to substantially break an entire team down, if not sweep said team altogether. In my experience against proficient players using Rain, (i.e Teifu, Flareblitz), Any playstyle on from balance to hyper offense is insignificant, and it is quite the achievement to put up even a feeble stand vs Rain. The fact that Rain enables otherwise mediocre pokemon to become broken under the offensive Charecteristic is testament enough to its power. 2x STAB attack plus speeds that cannot be bettered set this above and beyond hyper offense. Add in the fact that it can be set up for prolonged periods of time make it impossibly hard for certain teams to do anything.

Realistically, the only thing these teams can do is incur massive damage until the first round of rain ends, before attempting to taunt the Rain Dancer. The problem is that a proficient player will never allow your glass cannon taunter to prevent set up. Even if you could prevent it, your team would be at <50% before your first meaningful attack due to damp rock prolonging its influence.


Even stall teams are incredibly hard pressed to come out on top. Flareblitz can back me up on this. But lets take a look at what Rain produces:

Specs Gorrebys reaches speed of 420+ and SpAtt approaching 800 (when using a STAB attack). This surpasses even Deoxys-A w/ specs.... Chansey, the premier special wall of UU cannot switch in due to being 2hko after entry hazards. I disagree witht he notion that Rain teams should not have hazards. The best teams spike with quilfish in the lead, which make this style even more difficult (if thats possible).

The combination of SD kabutops/ SD ludicolo / SD quilfish all wear down each others counters to the point where sheer force overcomes any resistance. 8 turns of rain is more than enough for this to be easily achieved. Sure, Stall team can survive, but they lack any realistic chance to prevent a second rain period which spells out gg in capitals. GG.



This psychological approach to handling rain, purely "surviving", may cut it against new players hoping to make a name for themselves with Rain, but against better players, its simply asking for trouble. Putting a raikou as the final member will spell game, with all these pokes severely weakened to the point where Thunder/HP water/Extrasensory can clean up everything in sight. And that is essentially what you will have, only walls. That is why balance teams fail so spectacularly vs rain, with a lead, and 2/3 sweepers, thats only leaves you with a single physical and special wall to survive 7 turns of rain. It just doesnt happen. Offensive teams are outsped, outstabbed to death, which is where this differs from Hyper offense.


View this post to see the vast difference between damp rock supported rain and not.

Hide

Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Soul Dew Clause, Species Clause
Smurf. sent out Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Golden Sun sent out u fat (lvl 100 Uxie).
Golden Sun: srry
Golden Sun: I was away
Smurf.: np
skeeterkid has entered the room.
u fat used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Uxie used U-turn.
It's super effective!
u fat lost 18% of its health.
goofball has entered the room.
Smurf. switched in Rhyperior (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
The rain continues to fall.
---
u fat used Yawn.
Rhyperior became drowsy!
Rhyperior used Substitute.
Rhyperior lost 25% of its health.
Rhyperior made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
Rhyperior's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rhyperior restored 6% of its health.
---
goofball: FIRE BLAST!
u fat used U-turn.
The substitute took damage for Rhyperior!
Golden Sun: shit
Golden Sun: what to do
Golden Sun: what to do
Golden Sun switched in u fat (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Rhyperior used Megahorn.
u fat lost 66% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Rhyperior's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rhyperior restored 6% of its health.
Rhyperior fell asleep!
---
Smurf. switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
u fat used Surf.
A critical hit!
Uxie lost 134% of its health.
Smurf.'s Uxie fainted.
u fat lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Golden Sun: -.-
Smurf. switched in Porygonz (lvl 100 Porygonz).
Porygonz's Download raised its stats!
Porygonz's special attack was raised.
Smurf. switched in Rhyperior (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
u fat used Surf.
It's super effective!
Rhyperior lost 369% of its health.
Smurf.'s Rhyperior fainted.
u fat lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
Absol used Sucker Punch.
u fat lost 56% of its health.
Golden Sun's u fat fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Golden Sun switched in u fat (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Smurf. switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ?).
u fat used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 51% of its health.
u fat lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
u fat used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Venusaur lost 43% of its health.
u fat lost 10% of its health.
Venusaur used Power Whip.
u fat lost 143% of its health.
Golden Sun's u fat fainted.
Venusaur lost 10% of its health.
Smurf.'s Venusaur fainted.
The rain stopped.
---
Smurf. switched in Porygonz (lvl 100 Porygonz).
Golden Sun switched in u fat (lvl 100 Uxie).
Porygonz's Download raised its stats!
Porygonz's special attack was raised.
Porygonz used Trick.
Porygonz obtained Damp Rock!
u fat obtained Choice Scarf!
u fat used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Golden Sun switched in u fat (lvl 100 Registeel).
Porygonz used Dark Pulse.
It's not very effective...
u fat lost 14% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
whistle has entered the room.
zz2 has entered the room.
Smurf. switched in Absol (lvl 100 Absol ?).
u fat used Explosion.
Absol lost 167% of its health.
Smurf.'s Absol fainted.
Golden Sun's u fat fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Smurf. switched in Porygonz (lvl 100 Porygonz).
Golden Sun switched in u fat (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Porygonz's Download raised its stats!
Porygonz's attack was raised.
Smurf.: gg
Golden Sun: gg
u fat used Waterfall.
Porygonz lost 71% of its health.
u fat lost 10% of its health.
Porygonz flinched!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Golden Sun: u gonna sue this log?
u fat used Waterfall.
Porygonz lost 75% of its health.
Smurf.'s Porygonz fainted.
u fat lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
---
Smurf.: yeh
Golden Sun: kewl
Smurf. switched in Alakazam (lvl 100 Alakazam ?).
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
It's super effective!
u fat lost 83% of its health.
Golden Sun's u fat fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
---
Golden Sun switched in u fat (lvl 100 Uxie).
u fat used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Alakazam used Substitute.
Alakazam lost 25% of its health.
Alakazam made a substitute!
The rain continues to fall.
---
Golden Sun switched in u fat (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Alakazam used Signal Beam.
u fat lost 61% of its health.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
u fat used Waterfall.
The substitute took damage for Alakazam!
Alakazam's substitute faded!
Alakazam used Psychic.
u fat lost 115% of its health.
Golden Sun's u fat fainted.
Alakazam lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Golden Sun switched in u fat (lvl 100 Uxie).
u fat used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Alakazam lost 60% of its health.
Smurf.'s Alakazam fainted.
Golden Sun wins!
Golden Sun: gg
Smurf.: gg
goofball has left the room.
Smurf.: lol ironic
Golden Sun has left the room.
skeeterkid has left the room.
zz2 has left the room.

As you can see, my team's offensive balance style was utterly dominated by Golden Sun's Rain team for the first period, causing a setback of such magnitude that i couldn't recover. Interestingly enough, once i tricked his auxillary Rain dancers, damp rock away, i was able to muster a comeback which of course ultimately fell short. But this is evidence that Rain is significantly more manageable with 5 turns rather than 8.

 

[Heysup]

This reminds me.

Most of the Damp Rock nominations seem to be seriously lacking both of the main arguments they need. This may cut it for nominations but I doubt it would cut it for suspect paragraphs.

By both arguments, I mean:

a) Proving Rain is broken (or worth being suspect status)
b) Proving Damp Rock is the culprit. (Why not ban a Pokemon instead?)

I have not seen one person do both at the same time.

For example, Smurf here does everything right about at least proving Rain is suspect status (for a nomination, it's actually pretty good). However there is approximately one sentence about Damp Rock and the lack of any explanation about how it really makes Rain "that much better" or even how removing it makes it "the right amount of worse". Also, why is this more effective than banning a Pokemon?

P.S. That log....well to put it lightly it is not a log I would include in any post. It basically just shows that you failed to beat a Rain team due to misplays (and still almost won even with misplays). Tricking a Scarf onto Rain Dancers is not how to beat Rain Dance. Use Taunt or Substitute or Screens on the turns he uses Rain and you have a choice. So if you thought "This log shows how Damp Rock is the broken thing", I would have to suggest that you actually argue it since that log itself is suspect at best.

 

[Synre]

I'm still not completely sure what I want to vote on rain since I think there's a lot of merit to removing it, but that people are really not making an effort to adapt at all (I've seen a lot of logs of woefully unprepared teams and teams that are played incredibly poorly). I'm not sure if it would still be gamebreaking if people were playing against it more intelligently (and it very well might be), but I feel like in a lot of ways we're jumping the gun here. Not that rain is really all that desirable of a strategy to keep alive, anyway.

Heysup is definitely right, though - most of the rain nominations are really weak. The Raikou ones too, frankly.

If I do vote UU on Rain I'll probably post my para... there's an awful lot of one-sided complaining in this thread.

 

[shrang]

I'm still not completely sure what I want to vote on rain since I think there's a lot of merit to removing it, but that people are really not making an effort to adapt at all (I've seen a lot of logs of woefully unprepared teams and teams that are played incredibly poorly). I'm not sure if it would still be gamebreaking if people were playing against it more intelligently (and it very well might be), but I feel like in a lot of ways we're jumping the gun here. Not that rain is really all that desirable of a strategy to keep alive, anyway.

Heysup is definitely right, though - most of the rain nominations are really weak. The Raikou ones too, frankly.

If I do vote UU on Rain I'll probably post my para... there's an awful lot of one-sided complaining in this thread.

I agree with this. Rain is dangerous, but it's not like people can't adapt to playing against rain (Putting checks on their teams and what not). I'm going to post my own little rant on it soon (Once I finish it), but if people actually just put checks on their team (Just like how you would check Gyarados or Salamence, or Gengar in OU), the Rain team is not going to completely bone your team (1-0 or 2-0 at best, I reckon). Every loss I have suffered against a Rain team (I have had my fair share, I guess), have never been above 2-0. Ever.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Synre, Heysup, I've beaten most of the people in the top 20 on the leaderboard with my rain team. The same rain team, mind. Multiple times. Many of them have water absorbers, things like Milotic, defensive Venusaur, etc. Even some of the people posting here have pointed out that their teams are about as well prepared as it can get without being mono water or something. It's not a preparation thing...at all.

This is not me tooting my own horn. I swept with Yanmega back when it was UU too, but that's not because I'm significantly better than the players I was against, it's because Yanmega was broken; I just needed to take the steps that any competent battler would be able to take in order to help it sweep. And I think the same reasoning applies here.

Now, regarding your specific arguments.

Rain is broken because, for 6-7 turns, you have to deal with sweepers that effectively have over base 180 S/ATK (when using water attacks, not counting Item or Swords Dance boosts, at which point it gets ridiculous) and base 140-180 SPE. It's possible to beat these sweepers simply by switching around and outstalling their attacks, just as it would be possible to beat, say, a +2 Gyarados in UU by switching around between Milotic, Torterra and Uxie until it dies to LO recoil 7 turns later. I don't believe this would make Gyarados acceptable in UU, and yet it's exactly the argument people make against banning Damp Rock. "Play around it", you say. Well yes, it's entirely possible for any competent player to play around Froslass and Cresselia as well, but I don't see you advocating that they stick around for a while longer. And for good reason; because "playing around" a Pokemon (or in this case, a style) only works if your opponent is worse, or less lucky, than you are. Pure and simple.

Now, the second part: Why ban Damp Rock and not the Pokemon? That's easy. Rain is not necessarily broken because it makes certain Pokemon very very powerful, because Trick Room does that too. The problem is that it makes them very very powerful for a very very long time! Going back to the previous example, imagine if Gyarados was 4x weak to Stealth Rock. Would it be acceptable in UU? Maybe, maybe not...but the point is, the fact that it has significantly shorter to sweep has a great impact on whether it's broken in the tier or not, much more so than its actual power.
Without Damp Rock, sweepers in the rain will no longer be able to set up, will no longer be able to switch between sweepers and defensive pivots as I so often do, and the damage they inflict will be much lower overall. I don't even know why I have to write this down, as anyone with even rudimentary experience with rain will tell you that if you attempt to set it up without Damp Rock, it just doesn't last long enough to be useful. That's why I support banning Damp Rock over banning Pokemon who can actually be useful outside of rain as well.

And don't think I'm speaking out of bias. I've used rain extensively. It's all I've been using for the past month, actually (barring the occasional Ubers game). Honestly...I'll be sad if Damp Rock is voted out. I love using rain. It's probably my favorite playstyle, and I would love to keep using it. But it's my responsibility to point out that I believe it's broken. And if the community makes an informed decision and chooses not to vote Damp Rock BL...cool. Better for me.

 

[Banedon]

I got a suggestion ...

How about heysup / shrang / Synre / anyone doubting that Rain is BL challenge FlareBlitz to a game with what they believe is a team fully prepared to deal with it? Win, lose or draw you can then post the log here. Alternatively, I can challenge FlareBlitz again and post the log - it's a win/win situation for me after all; either someone points out that I've made mistakes where I didn't notice them, or flaws in my team ... or it adds weight to the argument that rain is BL (unless I win :D)

PS: I do think I can beat your team FlareBlitz, it's just pretty damn hard indeed to do so (needs almost flawless play on my part).

 

[shrang]

How would challenging FlareBlitz prove anything (Quite frankly, I'm a rather average player myself)?? It would probably just prove that he's a good player. I don't want hear stuff like "A good Rain team in the hands of a good player is very deadly". That's just stating the obvious and not telling us much at all. If this is the case, we could deem every team that has made #1 on any leaderboard broken. A good team in the hands of a good player is always going to win the majority of matches. A good Hyper Offense team in the hands of a good player (e.g. ReyScarface) is going to bone most players, a good Stall/semi-stall team in the hands of a good player (e.g. panamaxis, Near, etc) is always going to win the majority of matches. That's how they become #1, or #2 or whatever. So what?? Why don't we ban Life Orb so Hyper Offense cannot dominate, or ban Leftovers so Stall cannot dominate (By a few good players). FlareBlitz obviously made a good team, and he is obviously proficient enough to win with it. Rain is definitely not something any player can abuse and completely bone people (As I have said before, no-one has ever Rain swept me, the biggest losing margin I've ever had is 2-0).

 

[Banedon]

Good point, but if rain is broken then it should (presumably) win much more than it loses right? Even against another good player? It would also prove (at least up to mistakes made by either side) that a team prepared for rain can still lose to it, negating the argument that players lose to it because they don't have any rain checks.

Also I think I've lost most my games to rain by about 2-0 as well, but matches against them usually aren't close. I'm always on the receiving end, and when I win against it it's by 2-0 or so as well. The difference with rain and hyper offense is that I usually do feel I gave the other guy a game when I lost to hyper offense, but not so with rain.

 

[SJCrew]

Chansey stops the special threats cold and can hit physical switch-ins with Twave. Milotic can stop anything besides Ludicolo or a Kabutops with Swords Dance under its belt. Once the rain is out, you can predict the dedicated supporter coming in and either Taunt it or kill it. Taunt/SD Drapion stops Uxie or Cress before they can do anything and proceed to sweep the rest of the team. Rain has been a pretty big threat, I'm just not sure if its powerful enough to warrant a ban on Damp Rock. It's very much possible to get around Rain teams by simply outplaying your opponent.

 

[Ekanselttar]

I've expanded the section in my nomination "paragraph", and I figure I'd post it here, as I think it highlights the fact that the Rock is the culprit:

There is an aboslutely significant difference between a team with rocks and one without. It's time to toss out a couple numbers.

SD Kabutops is probably the best sweeper in the UU metagame, being able to OHKO such walls as Milotic and Hariyama after a swords dance, and it always gets to go first. Even against priority, because Kabutops gets Aqua Jet. With a Damp Rock, here's how the turns go:

1. Dance
2. Switch/U-Turn
3. Swords Dance
4. Sweep
5. Sweep
6. Sweep
7. Sweep
8. Sweep
9. Switch
10. Dance
11. Switch/U-turn
12. Swords Dance?

As you can see, three turns of setup yields five turns of sweep. The turns that are italicized represent turns where your opponent more or less gets free shots at your team. If you count switching back to a Dancer, you're sweeping 5 turns out of 9. If you let Kabutops die instead, it's 5 turns out of 8. That's 55.5% and 62.5% of the time, respectively. Subsequent sweepers like Gorebyss that don't set up will net you 6 out of 8 or 9, for 66.7%-75%. Without the rock, you get:

1. Dance
2. Switch/U-Turn
3. Swords Dance
4. Sweep
5. Sweep
6. Switch back to Dancer
7. Repeat

You'll notice that this drastically reduces the effectiveness of Rain's premiere sweeper. The mighty Kabutops, which with the Damp Rock, gets five turns of +2 ATK sweeping, now gets only two. That's less than half. And he dearly needs that Rain. Pretty much anything with a good fighting attack or Earthquake (Which is only the whole freaking metagame) will do serious damage if they survive or go first. After a switch, dance, and Life Orb recoil, Kabutops is good as dead. Only two turns out of six are dedicated to sweeping under the rain, which is a paltry 33%. The difference between 55% and 33% might seem a bit smaller than it is: without the Rock, you only get about 60% of the sweeping turns. Of course, if you don't use Swords Dance every switch (and you won't), that's still 75% vs 50%, where a non-Rocker gets 66.7% of the sweeping turns that a rocker gets in a given time frame.

This might not seem too bad, and it isn't, until you remember that once the rain's gone, you get to trash the other team for a bit. With 50% of the turns being dedicated to rain sweeping and 50% to rain setting, you get an equal-opportunity slugfest against a team with limited resistances and predictable setup routines. One of the crucial points in rock vs. non-rock is that damage incurred during the initial period of rain. With the rock, you get five or six turns of Hell. Even dedicated walls often only sponge two or three turns. You're almost guaranteed to lose at least a third of your team, though half is probably more accurate unless you're running stall. This pretty much takes away your ability to utilize team synergy, as you've got a giant, gaping hole in it. Without the rock, though, you might lose one wall the first time around, plus a support if you're really unlucky, then have the opportunity to agility up or whatever and mount your counteroffensive. After that, you've probably got even odds or so (if you can figure out how to KO a single poke in 3 turns), and the battle proceeds from there, with their setups being a bit worn around the edges and vulnerable for the next time they have to set up.

This is the absolute core of the issue. Nothing can take an unlimited amount of hits, and Dancers are no exceptions. There is a fairly limited spectrum of bulky Dancers (Lanturn, Raikou, and Uxie, mostly), and it's not hard to take them down, due to the fact that they must repeatedly switch in and take whatever hits you throw at them, and then proceed to use a non-offensive move. After that, it's another switch, where you can pursuit or predict the switch (or just use Thunderbolt) to heavily damage, cripple, or kill their chosen sweeper.

The TL;DR of it all (As I'm horribly longwinded) is that without the rock, you:
1. Cannot destroy their hopes with the initial sweep, and
2. Aren't even sweeping half the time, which means that
3. You may well lose your Dancers after a couple setups, then proceed to lose horribly.

 

[Smurf.]

I think if you put both FlareBlitz's and my own paragraphs together, theres a pretty solid case for damp rock being BL, if someone could write up how so called 'rain counters' are easily played around we're set.

 

[Golden Sun]

Chansey stops the special threats cold and can hit physical switch-ins with Twave. Milotic can stop anything besides Ludicolo or a Kabutops with Swords Dance under its belt. Once the rain is out, you can predict the dedicated supporter coming in and either Taunt it or kill it. Taunt/SD Drapion stops Uxie or Cress before they can do anything and proceed to sweep the rest of the team. Rain has been a pretty big threat, I'm just not sure if its powerful enough to warrant a ban on Damp Rock. It's very much possible to get around Rain teams by simply outplaying your opponent.

but it doesn't work like that when Flareblitz has spikes up and specs gorebyss rapes Chansey

 

[Smurf.]

@ Twist of Fate

Take Notice, spikes is what sets Flareblitz's Rain team apart from your average player's "easy ladder" team.

 

[shrang]

Specs Gorebyss, is probably only a niche to beat certain Chansey. You should never use any Choice item on Hyper Offensive team (Rain teams included), unless you are making your team dedicated to removing ALL counters that could switch in. Switching out and losing momentum can easily cost you game, especially if you are using a Rain team, which is under a timer. Anyway, just from my unfinished Rain rant, this is why I think Spikes and Specs Gorebyss should not be something that you should include on a Damp Rock suspect paragraph (Not to mention now that Spikes is also a factor in the ability for Gorebyss to sweep, not just Damp Rock).

Now to those people saying Spikes is good alongside rain, I can see where you are getting at (With Qwilfish and stuff like that), but I can tell you this: If you are planning to litter your opponent's field with entry hazards, you are in risk of your opponent setting up before you, which means like all Hyper Offensive teams, you are losing momentum and are more likely to lose. Rain requires you to set up the rain as soon as possible, and to abuse the rain for as long as possible (Utilising full momentum). So, this would be your choice. Do you use your time to set-up entry hazards, or do you use your time to set up Rain?? If you use your time to set-up entry hazards and lose because you couldn't get Rain up and end up getting swept (Which isn't all that hard, say Feraligatr gets 2 DDs in, you are fucked), I'll laugh at you. Like I've said for the Manaphy test, no-one is going to give you free turns while you pile on the entry hazards and set up Rain (Which, if you are just going for one layer of Spikes, would take you 3 turns, if you are thinking of using Kabutops and SDing, 4 turns). Setting up Spikes, then Rain, can easily give your opponent the two turns he/she needs to, say, set up 2 DDs with Feraligatr or Altaria or whatever.

In the ideal world, of course, you'll have Spikes up and Rain up. However, like I say, that requires a minimum of 3 turns!! I have said this in the Manaphy discussion as well: No-one is going to sit around for 3 turns doing squat. In a more reasonable scenario, you would have either i) Set up a layer of Spikes or ii) Set up Rain in order to sweep. If Spikes were not up, Gorebyss is not going to have a very good chance of getting past Chansey at all (Specs Hydro Pump in the rain does 47.66% - 56.07%), so you have around a ~20% chance of 2HKOing Chansey after Leftovers, and this not factoring in the fact that Chansey can just Wish/Protect stall you and Hydro Pump's crappy accuracy. Wish/Protect will mean you will not 2HKO. This is also not mentioning the fact that stuff like Poliwrath can come into a Specs Hydro Pump, set up a Sub and Bulk Up (Toxicroak can do the same thing).

 

[Banedon]

It doesn't really matter what Specs Gorebyss is there for, it matters that it's there. Usually if someone runs something unconventional then he's given up on other things and so there's a gap he's left unplugged, but FlareBlitz's team is still solid. I can tell you most of FlareBlitz's team, but I'm not sure if I should.

You're completely right that nobody is going to sit around for 3 turns doing nothing. The game I played against FlareBlitz, he took 4 turns to set up rain + 3 layers of spikes. Against that I took those same 4 turns to set up dual screens, Stealth Rock and U-turn Uxie out to Venusaur. I didn't do nothing, but I was still on the defensive. I don't remember exactly what happened later but (vaguely) FlareBlitz stalled out my screen turns with his own Rain Dancers, then went on the offensive. Later in the match it's easier to set up rain than dual screens after all (1 turn vs. 2). The other matches I watched, Smurf. tried applying heavy pressure from the start, stopping Qwilfish from setting up Spikes ... he even got an OHKO with Venusaur's Leaf Storm. But with that kind of offensive team, how many will have a Chansey?

I can predict what FlareBlitz's team will do with Poliwrath / Toxicroak by the way. He'll switch Gorebyss out, probably to Cresselia, and Psychic. Yes he loses rain turns this way, but - and this is what differentiates the battles I've had with him with those I've had with other players - he's happy to live with it. If rain dies, it can be set up again later. The Rain Dancers are bulky after all. That's why I said it's a "relaxed" way of playing RainDance.

I think you should play a game against him. Win, lose or draw, it's an experience to see.

 

[Smurf.]

It doesn't really matter what Specs Gorebyss is there for, it matters that it's there. Usually if someone runs something unconventional then he's given up on other things and so there's a gap he's left unplugged, but FlareBlitz's team is still solid. I can tell you most of FlareBlitz's team, but I'm not sure if I should.

You're completely right that nobody is going to sit around for 3 turns doing nothing. The game I played against FlareBlitz, he took 4 turns to set up rain + 3 layers of spikes. Against that I took those same 4 turns to set up dual screens, Stealth Rock and U-turn Uxie out to Venusaur. I didn't do nothing, but I was still on the defensive. I don't remember exactly what happened later but (vaguely) FlareBlitz stalled out my screen turns with his own Rain Dancers, then went on the offensive. Later in the match it's easier to set up rain than dual screens after all (1 turn vs. 2). The other matches I watched, Smurf. tried applying heavy pressure from the start, stopping Qwilfish from setting up Spikes ... he even got an OHKO with Venusaur's Leaf Storm. But with that kind of offensive team, how many will have a Chansey?

I can predict what FlareBlitz's team will do with Poliwrath / Toxicroak by the way. He'll switch Gorebyss out, probably to Cresselia, and Psychic. Yes he loses rain turns this way, but - and this is what differentiates the battles I've had with him with those I've had with other players - he's happy to live with it. If rain dies, it can be set up again later. The Rain Dancers are bulky after all. That's why I said it's a "relaxed" way of playing RainDance.

I think you should play a game against him. Win, lose or draw, it's an experience to see.

QFT. No-one sits around doing "squat" for 4 turns. If you are playing stall, you can only set up your own hazards alongside the rain user. If you endeavour to apply offensive pressure from the outset, you've already lost due to the team matchup, irrespective of entry damage. Flareblitz has built arguably the one rain team that can outplay any, yes, any style on the spectrum. Whether it be Dual screens, Balance, Offense, Stall, or Semi-Stall, everything yields to the offensive might of Rain. I've used every style, (bar Screens) against Flare in a rain experiment and have been outdone 6-2. These teams are certainly not pushovers, and i specifically geared certain pokes to resist rain. He even dealt my new Stall based balance team its one and only loss, a very convincing one at that (4-0 iirc in the rematch). One of the victories i was able to attain was with heavy stall, which was also consequently beaten in a rematch. The other victory was purely down to the fact that he was caught off guard by 'Smurf.magius'. The fact that he runs only 3 sweepers rather than the usual 4-5 is a testament to the power of a well built rain team

 

[shrang]

If you endeavour to apply offensive pressure from the outset, you've already lost due to the team matchup, irrespective of entry damage.

I disagree with this. If you correctly apply your pressure, the Rain team will never gain the momentum it needs. Let's just say you start Dragon Dancing your Feraligatr while Qwilfish is setting up hazards. Qwilfish will have to to stop your Feraligatr setting up and sweeping by Exploding, which probably means no rain or not enough hazards. After 2 Dragon Dances, Feraligatr is going to be outspeeding most Rain sweepers, even in the rain. Altaria is another example. HO vs Rain is definitely not an auto-win for Rain. It is really a battle of whoever gets the momentum first.

 

[Banedon]

So first few turns of battle goes something like -

Turn 1: you see Qwilfish and switch out to Feraligatr. Qwilfish lays Spikes (1 layer).
Turn 2: Feraligatr uses Dragon Dance. Qwilfish lays Spikes (2 layers).
Turn 3: Feraligatr uses Dragon Dance. Qwilfish Explodes. Double KO.

So Feraligatr is dead, you're facing two layers of Spikes, you've lost a valuable Water resist and your opponent still has Rain Dancers in reserve. One of them will probably come in next and put up Rain.

I think Smurf. is overstating it when he says you automatically lose. I certainly feel I had a chance to beat FlareBlitz. It's just that, at least with the tactics I used, it's very hard - and I had a lot of rain defense. Perhaps next time I'll give up on early screens to stop his early Spikes, which hopefully would let Venusaur and Milotic switch in more often.

 

[Smurf.]

I disagree with this. If you correctly apply your pressure, the Rain team will never gain the momentum it needs. Let's just say you start Dragon Dancing your Feraligatr while Qwilfish is setting up hazards. Qwilfish will have to to stop your Feraligatr setting up and sweeping by Exploding, which probably means no rain or not enough hazards. After 2 Dragon Dances, Feraligatr is going to be outspeeding most Rain sweepers, even in the rain. Altaria is another example. HO vs Rain is definitely not an auto-win for Rain. It is really a battle of whoever gets the momentum first.

If you lead with DD Gatr, you probably run an all out offensive team with one, maybe two (semi) defensive pivots.

Turn 1: You DD as Quilfish sets up Rain.
Turn 2: You DD again while it explodes in your face.

You're kidding yourself if you think two defensive pivots are going to stall out 6 more turns of rain. Then you have 3 glass cannons, all of which are ohko'd. GG.

BTW what you outlined is not immediate offensive pressure, I'm referring to e.g Scarf Saur leaf storm/sleep powder. then again Quilfish carries lum, so your only choice is to ohko with leaf storm, take the -2 drop, and watch helplessly as rain is set up.

 

[Stallion]

Heh I did beat Flare with his rain team the one time we've played, and seriously guys you don't need Dual Screens or whatever to beat Rain. It's actually not that bad if played correctly, you just need to make smart switches the whole time. I think with my current team I haven't lost to a single rain team AND I've managed to be successful on ladder (top 5 peak, still top 10 I think or close to). Rain is very good, but you're all making it sound like you need to go to extreme lengths to beat it >.<

 

[Banedon]

Post the log? I'd be interested in seeing how you did it, because another explanation of why Smurf and I have trouble with Rain is that we're both bad.

Btw Smurf. Qwilfish can't carry Lum Berry because it must hold Damp Rock >_<