Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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With all the hype currently centered around Hail, it's easy to forget about the other powerful weather in UU, Rain. The fact that Rain teams are very easy to build and very difficult to stop means that now more than ever it is important to take Rain into account when teambuilding in UU. Unlike Hail, the Pokemon that can use Rain effectively are not dependent on one or two Pokemon to set it up and then abuse it; it would be very difficult to ban enough Pokemon for Rain to become a non-viable strategy. Rain teams are here to stay, so it's a good idea to figure out now how to handle them.

That being said, the current metagame contains several "new" and controversial Pokemon that actually fit very nicely on a Rain team, and present unique problems to those facing stall. I'm referring, of course, to Froslass and Raikou.

Raikou is the more "obvious" Pokemon for a Rain team, providing a much-needed Electric resistance, and abusing Thunder and HP Water. "ThunderDancing" Raikou with a Damp Rock is one of the early to mid-game Pokemon for setting up Rain.

Froslass' role is less obvious, but it makes more sense when one considers that a common way to "prepare" for Rain is to count on a combination of Stealth Rock and Honchkrow's Sucker Punch. Rain teams are usually quite fragile, so strong neutral priority OHKOs a good chunk of most Rain teams. Froslass, however, is able to use her fast Taunt to keep opposing teams from getting Stealth Rock down, as well as Spiking to gain more KOs. On my Rain team, for example, I'm using Froslass with 252 HP and 252 Speed, Taunt/Spikes/Rain Dance/Destiny Bond as my lead.

Nearly every method used to slow down Rain teams has its difficulties. Honchkrow can be worn down by Kabutops' Aqua Jet and is heavily reliant on Stealth Rock to gain many KOs; bulky waters must beware of Ludicolo, Qwilfish and HP Grass; Toxicroak has to look out for neutral Ice Beams and Earth Power Omastar, though it is likely the safest bet. How is everyone adapting to deal with Rain Dance?
 
To be honest I don't see much discussion for Rain teams. They plow through a majority of standard teams with relative ease and even teams that 'prepare' for them are often overwhelmed.

How is everyone adapting to deal with Rain Dance?


I don't even take into consideration Rain Dance teams when I build a team. If they really become a nuisance there are four ways I handle them... Hitmontop (Prio), Toxicroak, Toxic Spikes, and Thunder Wave. There isn't much more you can really do to be honest. If you can last through the initial surge of Rain then you probably will win.
 
Toxi + Croak = dead Rain team.

NP Toxicroak with Vacuum Wave seems to be the most effective due to Sludge Bomb OHKOing Ludicolo, and +2 Vacuum Wave easily OHKOing Omastar/Kabutops. Not to mention Dry Skin restoring the LO Recoil + more every turn.

Lanturn also walls and/or threatens a good number of Rain pokemon. Add to the fact it's great at spreading Para.
 
Thunder Wave Registeel is a great Rain counter. None of the swift swimmers can OHKO it, and every Rain sweeper that gets Twaved is one less threat you have to deal with. Twave Chansey can be used similarly, but she should watch out for things like Focus Punch Ludicolo.

Scarfers can also be used, but they have to be very fast. A base 100 Scarfer can revenge neutral speed Ludicolo, and a base 110 Scarfer can revenge Adamant Kabutops, though Aqua Jet once again comes into play. Modest Scarf Raikou can also revenge Modest Ludicolo and pretty much every Swift Swimmer that isn't Kabutops or Qwilfish, while Timid Scarf Raikou can take out even Adamant Qwilfish and +Speed Ludicolo.

A Kabutops lead could help at the beginning of the match. It ensures Electrode only manages to get the Rain up, and puts a nice obstacle in your opponent's way. Actually, Kabutops in general is a good Rain team counter, since he gets the benefit of Swift Swim just like they do and is quite powerful in his own right.

EDIT: Toxicroak helps with a Rain team, but he has to be careful when he comes in. Ludicolo's Ice Beam 2HKOs, I believe, and Kabutops may run Return. Not to mention Omastar's Earth Power and Gorebyss's Psychic. Toxicroak also probably isn't going to like Raikou's Thunder very much, and Qwilfish can just blow up on you. Not to mention the possibility that one of their rain starters could very well be something like Claydol, Mesprit, or Uxie.
 
I once used a team centered around breaking down milotic and sweeping, and my array of Fire types and Water types left me pretty rain weak. I ran a Floatzel, with HP Grass, protect, taunt, and toxic, and it worked amazingly. It was EV'd to outpaces Jolly Kabutops while rain was up, KO both it and Omastar with HP grass, along with denting Gorybyes. I'd usually come in on an Uxie setting up Rain, taunt the sr, protect on the U-turn, and four turns would be gone by the time kabutops came in. Taunt the SD, or survive any of it's attack and HP Grass it the next turn. Stopping the momentum like that is crucial. I also think that Ludicolo is the main threat to stop, most others lack the power/movepoll to break through water-resistant walls, or too priority weak.
 

Xia

On porpoise
is a Contributor Alumnus
I've seen a huge increase in the number of Rain Dance teams using Kabutops lately, easily surpassing Ludicolo as the most commonly seen Pokemon on Rain Dance teams (bar Electrode, of course). Having such a huge attack stat and access to a double STAB priority attack (Aqua Jet) in the rain makes it nearly impossible to take down if your team isn't able to outstall the rain, set up Reflect, or abosrb the Water-type attack.

The Froslass-feuled Spikes fad in UU just makes countering this single threat even harder--offensive teams especially have trouble with this Pokemon. I'm not saying it's completely broken, but I what I am saying is it's a powerful threat that your team should be ready to beat (personally, I set up Reflect with Uxie and send in my HP Grass Rotom to take care of it).
 
Oh Rain Dance teams can certainly be deadly if well built and in skilled hands. But my experience of them has been kinda weird in that the vast majority of such teams have been rather naively constructed and badly used. A particularly good example was back when I was using a Shedinja team; in what must have been around 9 out of 10 battles against Rain teams, all Shedinja had to do was come in on Ludicolo / Qwilfish / anything unable to hit it, Swords Dance up then 6-0. This was because only one Pokemon if any had a move capable of hitting it (Kabutops mostly), who had to be sacrificed just to break the Sash. No Pokemon (any Pokemon) should be able to deal with a Rain team that easily. If not able to carry the required attacks on your sweepers, at least throw in a Toxic or two on your bulky Rain Dance setters. It is kinda like how I felt about Froslass in a way (before the recent Hail surge); deadly in the right hands, but the number of "right hands" out there seem few and far between.

How do I deal with Rain Dance teams? Depends entirely on the team in question. My current team has a max Attack + Speed LO Jolly Qwilfish with Swift Swim, who usually serves as an aggressive Spiker + Toxic Spikes absorber, but also works remarkably well for checking Rain teams also. I like to call it a "turn the tables on Rain" Pokemon, and Kabutops can do a similar thing while serving a more general purpose elsewhere. I also have standard LO Honchkrow and a Raikou, and it doesn't hurt to have either of them when facing Rain.

I also agree with Xia in that no Rain team should ever go without a Kabutops. To do otherwise is practically the definition of 'stupid'.

Anyway, I'm a little unsure as to what the purpose of this thread is exactly. Is it just to talk about how one prepares for Rain, or is it also for a discussion on what steps to take in order to build the best Rain Dance team possible?
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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Anyway, I'm a little unsure as to what the purpose of this thread is exactly. Is it just to talk about how one prepares for Rain, or is it also for a discussion on what steps to take in order to build the best Rain Dance team possible?
Both.
 
For building the best Rain Dance team possible, you have to look at the Abusers and the Setup. For the abusers, Kabutops is a must as it's the hits the hardest physically, as well as having Aqua Jet for priority. Ludicolo is almost always a must too - otherwise you'll have problems breaking down Milotic. The last abuser slot would either go to 1) Qwilfish, 2) Gorebyss or 3) Omastar.

For setup, it's either fast and not so bulky, or slow and bulky. Fast and not so bulky goes for Electrode, Ambipom, Froslass, (all with Taunt), Raikou... while you can have slower and more bulky setup like Registeel or Uxie (Heal Bell =D + Zen Headbutt for Toxicroak/Hitmontop, but watch out for Honchkrow)

To beat Rain, Registeel + Slowbro/Milotic is a hard combo to break, Toxic Spikes will wear down Rain teams without Qwilfish, Water Absorbers like Toxicroak/Poliwrath/Lapras/Quagsire will help stall. Oh, and Stone Edge misses. Whatever you do, don't give Kabutops a Swords Dance.
 

Erazor

✓ Just Doug It
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I use a 'traditional' Rain team, i.e, one without the suspects. I've been using Rain extensively over the last couple of tests, and IMO the biggest threats are Technitop, Honchkrow, and Absol. These bastards throw out strong Priority that usually OHKO(Technitop not so much) most rain sweepers after a couple of turns of LO recoil. Toxicroak too is a threat.
As a result, I use Gorebyss over Omastar. Psychic is overkill on Toxicroak, and it's neural to fighting.

Rain's most vulnerable once the Rain stops, and if the opponent sends out Raikou, it's almost gg. So I had to resort to using Registeel as a bulky Rain Dancer. (And Lemmi, my Registeel carries Shadow Claw - screw Shedinja)
I also find myself using Quilfish and Kabutops on the same team. Quilfish is like a semi-sweeper - it provides the Rain support, but more importantly it blows up on Milotic and Uxie.

Umbreon can also fuck Rain Dance over with Wish/ Protect stalling.

To beat a rain team, try to make clever switches, and it's quite safe to make assumptions. For example, you can predict what the last unrevealed pokemon is based on the pokemon you've seen so far.
 
I was talking to xianglongfa one day and we started talking about rain and I told him the Pokemon that I stuck together at the beginning of the test and he told me that I had a really anti-rain team. It was completely unintentional but now that I think about it, it's true.

Milotic: bitch to kill without Kabutops, Boomfish, Ludicolo, Toxicroak and can kill momentum easily (bulky waters in general too except Slowbro needs SDef to stall HP Grasses or just run Slowking); stalls stuff like Omastar and Gorebyss out, can get a Toxic on Ludicolo as it Energy Balls or Swords Dances or Seed Bombs assuming you're at full HP.
Leafeon: I ran a Wish + Protect variant with lots of HP and a bit of Def. Stalls out rain turns with Protect, Wishes stuff back to health, beats Kabutops in or out of rain (although +2 SE does a shitton), Grass STAB is always nice.
Raikou: Extremely SpD Raikou + CM --> if you save it for lategame and get rid of their Registeel the rain team is going to be in trouble.
Screens: Reflect + Grass Knot on Uxie supports the team so Stone Edge doesn't kill Milotic or Leafeon; Explosion does less; I'm not setup bait Kabutops ok!

What do you guys think the best ladder set for Ludicolo is? (Special + Focus Punch IMO)

Also, how do rain teams without Uxie deal with NP Toxicroak?
 

Erazor

✓ Just Doug It
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I was talking to xianglongfa one day and we started talking about rain and I told him the Pokemon that I stuck together at the beginning of the test and he told me that I had a really anti-rain team. It was completely unintentional but now that I think about it, it's true.

Milotic: bitch to kill without Kabutops, Boomfish, Ludicolo, Toxicroak and can kill momentum easily (bulky waters in general too except Slowbro needs SDef to stall HP Grasses or just run Slowking); stalls stuff like Omastar and Gorebyss out, can get a Toxic on Ludicolo as it Energy Balls or Swords Dances or Seed Bombs assuming you're at full HP.
Leafeon: I ran a Wish + Protect variant with lots of HP and a bit of Def. Stalls out rain turns with Protect, Wishes stuff back to health, beats Kabutops in or out of rain (although +2 SE does a shitton), Grass STAB is always nice.
Raikou: Extremely SpD Raikou + CM --> if you save it for lategame and get rid of their Registeel the rain team is going to be in trouble.
Screens: Reflect + Grass Knot on Uxie supports the team so Stone Edge doesn't kill Milotic or Leafeon; Explosion does less; I'm not setup bait Kabutops ok!

What do you guys think the best ladder set for Ludicolo is? (Special + Focus Punch IMO)

Also, how do rain teams without Uxie deal with NP Toxicroak?
Toxicroak is handled by Gorebyss.

For Ludicolo, I use Surf/Energy Ball/Ice beam/Rain dance, but that's because I use both Kabutops and Quilfish on the same team to beat Chansey. The few turns that Ludicolo sets up for itself can be invaluable, especially since it can survive Raikou's Thunderbolt at decent health.
 
Hypno can stop pretty much every sp.atk pokes(Gorebyss, Omastar, Ludicolo...) with a max/max spread and can survive a waterfall from Kabutops(unlike Chansey) and paralize all of them with Thunder Wave.
Not that it can win for itself though...
Registeel is eve beeter, since it is bulkier from both sides... but can't recover his own life like Hypno.

Bulky grasses can take one or two pokes out too. Bulky Venusaur can use Sludge Bomb on Ludicol


Oh yes, there's one poke that is a total prick to Rain Dance teams: Golduck. Provided Ludicolo is gone, he can just come in and spam HP Grass or get a CM boost without being outspeeded.

No one uses Golduck though. Poor duck
 

LonelyNess

Makin' PK Love
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I think that Omastar has really nothing to offer a rain team anymore. Sure, it has the highest Special Attack of any Swift Swim Pokemon, but it has so little to offer in addition to that. It's no faster than any other Pokemon that can take advantage of Rain. It can't beat strong Water-types like Milotic like Ludicolo can with Energy Ball. It can't beat Vacuum Wave Toxicroak, or Mach Punch Hitmontop. It literally does nothing better than Goreybyss does, and if you're talking about using two Special Pokemon to wear down the counters of the other, then you should be using Gorebyss + Ludicolo, since they can take out the Pokemon that the other can't.

Personally though, I like to go with a max of 3 sweepers. I like the combination that Gorebyss / Qwilfish / Kabutops provides. Gorebyss takes out stuff like Toxicroak and dents Registeel. Qwilfish handles Quagsire / Poliwrath. And once those three Pokemon are either killed or in Registeel's case weakened, it's a clean sweep for Swords Dance Kabutops. With only needing three slots to take advantage of Rain, you can use your last three Pokemon to tie up loose ends. Using an Uxie or Froslass to set up Rain gives your Pokemon some much needed Entry hazard support (since Kabutops can OHKO Registeel all by itself with just 1 layer of Spikes, and can threaten an OHKO on Tangrowth with 1 layer of Spikes and 1 layer of Stealth Rock).
The last slot can go to an all purpose really good Pokemon that can clean up after everything has finished rampaging. Swellow is actually a really good fit because most people will sacrifice their Rock / Steel-type Pokemon to waste a turn of Rain Dance thinking that it will be dead weight against a team that is spamming Water-type moves. Their hasty sacrifice is often their demise when their one answer to Swellow goes down.
 
No one has mentioned ev'ing gorebyss to 2hko Chansey with aqua tail... Its VERY helpful against stall as it provides away to break their sp wall easily without lots of switches into spikes sr etc. I'm not sure of the exact ev spread to make it the most efficient though...
 

Nas

Banned deucer.
When constructing a rain team I usually go with 3 rain sweepers + 2 Rain Dancers + 1 Wildcard pokemon, usually a clean up sweeper of some sort.

I think when building a rain team there are two pokemon that are absolutely necessary; Qwilfish, and of course, Kabutops. Kabutops for previously mentioned reasons, and Qwilfish is useful for Toxic Spikes absorbtion, which otherwise wreck rain, and the fact that he shares many of Kabutops counters (Toxicroak, Quagsire) and can explode on them, opening up the opponents team for a Tops sweep.

About Honchkrow: I really don't ever have too many issues with this thing. In order for it to come in you'll have already taken something out, and then you just switch to Kabutops as they Sucker Punch and KO with Aqua Jet. It's so simple, and yet every time I face someone using Rain and I bring in my Honch on their Ludicolo/Qwilfish/Gorebyss, they'll just sac their poke to a Sucker Punch when they could easily save it and force me out at the same time.
 

LonelyNess

Makin' PK Love
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No one has mentioned ev'ing gorebyss to 2hko Chansey with aqua tail... Its VERY helpful against stall as it provides away to break their sp wall easily without lots of switches into spikes sr etc. I'm not sure of the exact ev spread to make it the most efficient though...

You can actually 2HKO Chansey in the rain with Aqua Tail without having to invest a single EV into Attack. The only thing you need is a neutral nature (use the SpA+,SpD- one so you still take Mach Punches / Fake Outs from TechTop reasonably well).

In fact, you can even forgo the worse accuracy and use Waterfall to nearly always 2HKO Chansey with Stealth Rock and Leftovers

204 Atk vs 109 Def & 641 HP (80 Base Power): 312 - 367 (48.67% - 57.25%)
 

Erazor

✓ Just Doug It
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Lonelyness, did you mean Ludicolo in your post about 3 sweepers? Because Quilfish doesn't beat Quagsire and Poliwrath without going boom.
 
I used a raindance team 6 months ago. It was a totally different metagame and I failed badly, so thats not the point of my post.
It has been mentioned above that pokes like Milotic or Registeel give raindance team a lot of trouble. That shows that raindance still has no chance against stall. I'm using a stallteam based around Chansey and Slowbro and I never lost to a raindance team. Add a Toxic-Spiker to get rid of Ludiculo and you are able to outstall most RD -teams.

I didn't play great players like reachzero, so I'm intrested in how RD breaks stall.
 
No one has mentioned ev'ing gorebyss to 2hko Chansey with aqua tail... Its VERY helpful against stall as it provides away to break their sp wall easily without lots of switches into spikes sr etc. I'm not sure of the exact ev spread to make it the most efficient though...
If using Aqua Tail, so why not use Huntail rather than Gorebyss?
 
If using Aqua Tail, so why not use Huntail rather than Gorebyss?
Because its still a fearsome sp sweeper that is specialized to handle Chansey and those are always nice to have. run 3 sp atk moves + aqua tail for Chansey... Again idk the exact ev spread.
 
But Huntail has a better filler attack(Super Fang) and it has a decent sp.atk and a good attack, making it a good mixed rain sweeper.

It doesn't need as much ev's as Gorebyss needs to boost its Aqua Tai, allowing it to put some on sp.atk... though i'm not even close to be an expert of ev spreads, so i can't be sure how many evs both Gorebyss and Huntail needs, and how much sp.atk they will have.
 
But Huntail has a better filler attack(Super Fang) and it has a decent sp.atk and a good attack, making it a good mixed rain sweeper.

It doesn't need as much ev's as Gorebyss needs to boost its Aqua Tai, allowing it to put some on sp.atk... though i'm not even close to be an expert of ev spreads, so i can't be sure how many evs both Gorebyss and Huntail needs, and how much sp.atk they will have.
Gorebyss doesn't want to be a mixed sweeper. She is a pure special sweeper with the ability to take out Chansey by herself. Huntail doens't have the special attack to do gorebyss' job and making him a "mixed sweeper" just makes him a redundant version of kabutops or qwilfish that cant set up. Besides if your running a mixed sweeper with Super fang you are only getting 3 moves two of which will be the same type giving you one additional move for coverage. Gorebyss will always do gorebyss' job better.
 

Xia

On porpoise
is a Contributor Alumnus
Gorebyss with Aqua Tail should be played like Ludicolo with Focus Punch; the physical move is there for (primarily) one Pokemon: Chansey. Huntail hasn't received anything worth adding to an UU rain team and is, as BurtonEarny implied, a lesser version of any other physical rain sweeper.

BurtonEarny did bring up another interesting piece that seems to be missing in UU rain: a reliable mixed sweeper. Whereas OU has Kingdra for mixed sweeping, a vast majority of UU Pokemon are one-sided (and I don't count Gorebyss or FP Ludicolo as mixed sweepers, for reasons I mentioned above). Sure, people may put a Sceptile on their team as a mixed attacker, but as far as having a Pokemon whose performance is elevated in rain, I can't think of one. Has anyone ever attempted to make a mixed rain sweeper, or is there even a need for mixed sweepers on Rain Dance teams?
 

LonelyNess

Makin' PK Love
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Ok, did you guys miss the part about how you don't need a single EV invested into attack on Gorebyss to 2HKO Chansey with Aqua Tail? I think you all must have...

204 Atk vs 109 Def & 641 HP (90 Base Power): 351 - 414 (54.76% - 64.59%)

That's a 2HKO every time no matter what even with Leftovers and no Stealth Rock... it doesn't get much more definitive than that.

Now there is an EV spread that you could try that would yield an OHKO with Rocks after Chansey takes a single Surf.

with 252 SpA and a Rash nature, 0 HP / 252 SpD+ Chansey takes the following from Surf

359 Atk vs 339 Def & 641 HP (95 Base Power): 211 - 249 (32.92% - 38.85%)

with 48 Atk and a neutral nature, 0 HP / 252 Def Chansey takes the following from Aqua Tail

216 Atk vs 109 Def & 641 HP (90 Base Power): 372 - 438 (58.03% - 68.33%)

This will KO Chansey with a combination of Surf + Aqua Tail over 60% of the time. The only problem? You have to drop Gorebyss' speed to 192 so that when it doubles in Rain it hits 384 (just enough to outspeed Swellow, the fastest non-scarfer in the tier), which means you won't be able to outspeed neutral Base 80 Scarf Pokemon (like Blaziken and Gallade). But personally I find it to be a small price to pay considering you can spam Surf with little to no consequences.

Erazor said:
Lonelyness, did you mean Ludicolo in your post about 3 sweepers? Because Quilfish doesn't beat Quagsire and Poliwrath without going boom.
Well, it can beat Poliwrath without going boom (Qwilfish resists all of the 3 moves that Poliwrath will hit it with, and after a Swords Dance, Poison Jab is going to do an assload of damage to it, even being NVE). But even so, I don't care if I have to sacrifice Qwilfish to boom on Quagsire, the point is that Qwilfish got rid of the only thing that could have beaten Kabutops with any certainty, which means it's doing its job just fine.
 

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