Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

[Xia]

total theorymon here but a scarf Raikou (541 speed) with
Thunderbolt
Shadowball
Hp grass
Thunder
would pretty much destroy rain teams. With a timid nature you outspeed neutral 252 qwilifish( 538 Speed)

Sweeper ludicolo which is neutral and has the highest Sp Def from the sweepers takes 59.80% - 70.76% from a timid Thunder
Although
Modest Life orb Ludicolo does 79.75% - 94.39% in return
Adamant Life orb Kabutops 50.47% - 59.81% with Aqua Jet

Scarf Raikou might be able to take out Rain Dance teams, but if that set was up against anything else it would do horribly. Thunderbolt and Thunder on the same set is redundant, and since you're not guarenteed 100% accuracy with Thunder, you'll be running Thunderbolt. That makes your calculations null and void, since you can't do as much damage with Thunderbolt. The idea itself wouldn't be terrible to test, but the moveset really needs reevaluated to be worthwhile on a team aiming to win.

 

[Zaq]

Scarf Raikou might be able to take out Rain Dance teams, but if that set was up against anything else it would do horribly. Thunderbolt and Thunder on the same set is redundant, and since you're not guarenteed 100% accuracy with Thunder, you'll be running Thunderbolt. That makes your calculations null and void, since you can't do as much damage with Thunderbolt. The idea itself wouldn't be terrible to test, but the moveset really needs reevaluated to be worthwhile on a team aiming to win.

Redundancy aside, if this Raikou is ONLY used against Rain Dance Teams, one can safely assume that Rain will be up at least some of the time making Thunder 100% accurate and superior to Thunderbolt.

Still, do you want to have a dead weight poke on your team for the sole purpose of defeating the odd Rain Dance team?

 

[Mrobinson587]

Lol people are so anxious to beat sets over the head.

If you have a better way of offensively stopping Rain without sacrificing half your team I would like to hear it. Most people beat rain by stalling out the rain as best they can and then hoping they can OHKO the rest of the sweepers before they get rain up again. I am well aware of Honchkrow who as we have pointed out can be played around and is predictable and Toxicroak who I'm even more aware of as I did the testing to determine if specs Toxicroak is viable or OO for the last analysis. (Incidentally, it is farily effective at damaging rain teams and Empoleon focused OU teams, but usually isn't worth the team slot in OU where it was tested. It can also hurt Blissey pretty badly with Cross Chop something most specs users wish they could do.)

Dead weight is kind of another question. Sure it's not as effective as it's standard set but single handedly taking on a style of play is worthwhile looking at. It still could function pretty well as a generic revenge killer especially with HP ice, which now that I think of it is far better in the last slot over grass.

Again like i said this is all therymon. We are discussing ways to take on rain no?

 

[MagicMaster87]

You could always run Signal Beam over Thunder, max Timid Scarf Raikou's Signal Beam versus 0/0 neutral Ludicolo:

329 Atk vs 236 Def & 301 HP (75 Base Power): 150 - 178 (49.83% - 59.14%)

2HKO with one round of LO recoil or SR damage. Aside from Ludicolo, though, it'd only really be useful on Sceptile, Torterra and Absol, as Venusaur, Houndoom, and Honchkrow are neutral to it and every Psychic-type takes more from Shadow Ball.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Although probably not the best option by any means, I have actually seen the odd Dugtrio pop up on Rain teams I have encountered. It isn't actually all that crazy an option should you find yourself with a free slot, as you can bring it in on Registeels going for the obvious Thunder Wave and dispatch it, saving your sweepers from being crippled or hurt at all. Then there's also the odd Lanturn or Chansey to come in on if you're sure they will go for Thunder Wave / Electric attack, who are also easily dispatched after taking a strong Water attack.

So perhaps not the most viable choice on Rain, but one that sees use from time to time nonetheless, which on its own makes stuff like Scarf Raikou much less reliable at taking on Rain teams.

 

[Bluewind]

Although probably not the best option by any means, I have actually seen the odd Dugtrio pop up on Rain teams I have encountered. It isn't actually all that crazy an option should you find yourself with a free slot, as you can bring it in on Registeels going for the obvious Thunder Wave and dispatch it, saving your sweepers from being crippled or hurt at all. Then there's also the odd Lanturn or Chansey to come in on if you're sure they will go for Thunder Wave / Electric attack, who are also easily dispatched after taking a strong Water attack.

So perhaps not the most viable choice on Rain, but one that sees use from time to time nonetheless, which on its own makes stuff like Scarf Raikou much less reliable at taking on Rain teams.

Dugtrio is also a decent way to take on NP Toxicroack, as these calcs show:
542 Atk vs 176 Def & 212 HP (40 Base Power): 172 - 204 (81.13% - 96.23%)
596 Atk vs 176 Def & 212 HP (40 Base Power): 189 - 223 (89.15% - 105.19%)
These are calculations of LO Boosted +2 Vacuum Waves from Timid and Modest Toxicroacks respectively, and show how Duggy stands a fair chance of survival if SR aren't down (Taunt Electrode will guarantee that 99.9% of the time).

 

[Astrith01]

Alright, I just recently joined a tournament that forced me to get into the UU metagame, and Rain teams was one of the first things I have tried, and it works great. Toxicroak works well to beat rain, as well as in the Rain for a sweeper, and Milotic + Ludicolo Grass Knott = Death.

Anyway, I have been using the following team:

Uxie @ Damp Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/80 Def/176 SDef
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Rain Dance
- Thunder
---
Ludicolo (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 72 HP/52 Def/132 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
---
Kabutops (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 72 HP/252 Atk/132 Def/52 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
---
Registeel @ Damp Rock
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP/100 Atk/156 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Thunder Wave
- Iron Head
- Explosion
- Rain Dance
---
Toxicroak (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
- Cross Chop
- Swords Dance
---
Weezing (M) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/176 Def/80 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunder
- Rain Dance
- Will-o-wisp
- Explosion
---

Now, I just recently built this one for the Tournament, and I tested it a fair amount, and it works well actually, Ludicolo sweeps occasionally, but my main sweeper is Toxicroak, who, often times I have gotten +6 with. Substitute + Dry Skin + Leftovers makes it easy to set-up and stall on things, including Milotic, where you will Sub + Sword Dance when necessary until at +6, then rip through things. As for Kabutops, I am thinking he is more dead weight than anything.

For any of you wondering about my EV spread for Kabutops and Ludicolo, they outspeed base 140's in the rain, the rest into the main attacking stat, and then leftovers put here and there to minimize LO damage, and SR Damage, then the rest into defense.

 

[Stagnant]

It is very hard to imagine Kabutops to be dead weight in a Rain team... or normal team as a matter of fact. He hits hard, easy to setup, and doesn't really need to strech himself for coverage.

 

[Mrobinson587]

Toxicroak (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
- Cross Chop
- Swords Dance

Just letting you know if you copy pasted you might be missing some EV's

 

[Astrith01]

Just letting you know if you copy pasted you might be missing some EV's

Lol, my bad, I forgot to put his other EV's on him in Team builder, I guess it's a good thing I posted here >.>

Kabutops doesn't do too much for me honestly, he dies to easily.

EDIT: His EV's should be 252 Spd/252 Atk/4 HP

 

[Sock Monster]

Dugtrio is awesome on Rain Teams.
I used him extensively as my Raikou, Registeel, Chansey and Lanturn killer.
He also works well on taking on Honchcrow if you manage to Sub on the Sucker Punch.

I ran a Miltank with high attack investment as my lead as it can set up Rain Dance, Stealth Rock, it 2HKOs opposing Froslass and gets SO MANY pokemon paralysed that it's not even funny. Nobody expects a Miltank to set up rain, unlike Electrode.

Also i have found Omastar to be much easier to switch in compared to Gorebyss as although the Rock type kind of leaves it open to so many attacks, it can easily switch in on normal attacks and start smacking high powered attacks. It also makes it so easy to know that your opponent is going to Mach Punch you so you can switch to an appropriate pokemon to take it.

But you obviously can't run Omastar and Kabutops on the same team..

 

[reachzero]

I ran a Miltank with high attack investment as my lead as it can set up Rain Dance, Stealth Rock, it 2HKOs opposing Froslass and gets SO MANY pokemon paralysed that it's not even funny. Nobody expects a Miltank to set up rain, unlike Electrode.

That's actually a really interesting idea, and I'll probably try it if Froslass gets banned. The one thing I would really miss, though, is Taunt. One of the main reasons Froslass is such a good Rain team lead is that a fast Taunt makes it much harder for the opponent to get Stealth Rock down, making your sweepers harder to revenge with priority. Otherwise, though, I like the Miltank idea a lot.

 

[Zaq]

Astrith; if you're having trouble with Kabutops dying try out this Uxie from the Rain Offense Guide:

Uxie @ Damp Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Rain Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Memento
- Psychic

It has enough bulk to take two or three hits from anything that hasn't set up; letting you put up Rain, possibly SR, and then use Memento. If you don't hit a wall with it somehow it let's you get Kabutops in for free, other then entry hazards, and then get a Sword Dance up when the you're opponent switches out to clear the -2 stages to both its attack stats.

 

[umbarsc]

I think that Omastar has really nothing to offer a rain team anymore. Sure, it has the highest Special Attack of any Swift Swim Pokemon, but it has so little to offer in addition to that. It's no faster than any other Pokemon that can take advantage of Rain. It can't beat strong Water-types like Milotic like Ludicolo can with Energy Ball. It can't beat Vacuum Wave Toxicroak, or Mach Punch Hitmontop. It literally does nothing better than Goreybyss does, and if you're talking about using two Special Pokemon to wear down the counters of the other, then you should be using Gorebyss + Ludicolo, since they can take out the Pokemon that the other can't.

One thing that's nice about Omastar vs. Gorebyss is that Omastar can actually take a Sucker Punch. Gorebyss takes 69-81% from Honchkrow's Life Orb Sucker Punch, which comes close to OHKOing on average with Stealth Rock + Life Orb recoil. Omastar, on the other hand, takes only 53-62%, which means it would have to be significantly weakened before Sucker Punch killed it.

From what I remember, Fake Out + Mach Punch from Hitmontop does similar damage to both Gorebyss and Omastar.

But Toxicroak seems like a good enough reason to use Gorebyss.

When I used Rain a few tests ago (it might have been the Shaymin metagame?), I generally liked to send out Ludicolo early to wear down their special rain counter (Focus Punch the Chansey, Energy Ball the bulky water, Ice Beam the Shaymin), then use Omastar for late-game sweep, though I guess Gorebyss does that too.

Oh, and this will absolutely never matter at all, but Omastar is 14 points faster in the rain. A couple instances where this might possibly be relevant:

- Omastar ties Modest Scarf Moltres
- Omastar outspeeds Jolly Scarf Absol
- Omastar outspeeds max Speed Electrode

That's basically it. Not that it will ever matter, but it at least should be mentioned.

 

[M BLADE]

I forgot one poke that is terribly effective at countering Rain Dance teams: Gardevoir.
Trace means a Rain Dance boost for you too, and Thunderbolt outright KO any Rain Dance abuser.
Max speed and Timid means you're going to outspeed every poke in the rain. And Psychic does a number to Ludicolo.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I forgot one poke that is terribly effective at countering Rain Dance teams: Gardevoir.
Trace means a Rain Dance boost for you too, and Thunderbolt outright KO any Rain Dance abuser.
Max speed and Timid means you're going to outspeed every poke in the rain. And Psychic does a number to Ludicolo.

The biggest problem with Gardevoir is that she doesn't resist Water, therefore Kabutops' Aqua Jet does a huge amount against her poor Defense even when unboosted, and easily OHKOs after Swords Dance. She also struggles to switch in on anything, requiring a sacrifice for every time she makes an entry on a Swift Swimmer.

And Signal Beam is the move to use against Ludicolo if carrying it.

 

[M BLADE]

The biggest problem with Gardevoir is that she doesn't resist Water, therefore Kabutops' Aqua Jet does a huge amount against her poor Defense even when unboosted, and easily OHKOs after Swords Dance. She also struggles to switch in on anything, requiring a sacrifice for every time she makes an entry on a Swift Swimmer.

And Signal Beam is the move to use against Ludicolo if carrying it.

But Aqua Jet it does not KO Gardevoir... Thunderbolt from Gardy does. As well as everyone else.
And please, don't count Swords Dance. It isn't guaranteed to get one.

Also, Gardevoir needs to differ itself from Alakazam(other than Trace) if you want a place for Gardy in the team(not counting countering RD teams) so it will need a option that Alakazam does not have. Hypnosis, Will-o-Wisp, Wish...

And i won't let Gardy switch in on a attack. NEVER. I just bring her if someone "dies". If Ludicolo(or any other teammate like Lanturn or Uxie or something) is low at health, and Gardy is high, it's GG for the enemy. Unless you use Sucker Punch Huntail(yes... all right.)

And if anyone uses Duggie you WILL need Will-o-Wisp, probably her best option to differ herself from Alakazam.
A good Gardy who serves as a RD counter and a good poke in your team is probably:

Gardevoir@Leftovers

Will-o-Wisp
Thunderbolt
Psychic
Focus Blast/Wish

A strong hard hitter who can support and counters RD teams(not completely, but once some key pokes are gone Gardy is free to sweep)

 

[Hood Dream]

But the question is....who would really keep a gardevoir on their UU team just to make sure they can beat RAIN teams

 

[M BLADE]

But the question is....who would really keep a gardevoir on their UU team just to make sure they can beat RAIN teams

Read my post and you see that i said exactly why she would be used... Because she hits hard and also can provide support options, not only because she can counter Rain Dance teams.
I said she needs to differ from Alakazam exactly because of that: she is outclassed by Alakazam if you play with 4 moves that Alakazam can use.
So, to use Gardevoir outside of countering RD teams, you need to use her best options that Alakazam can't use.

Gardy can provide Wish, burn things, put pokes to sleep... so she isn't just to make sure it can beat Rain teams. She can be useful through other means(how about Tracing Intimidate back to Hitmontop? or Tracing Ice Body from Walrein or Snow Cloak from Froslass? Even better, Trace Magic Guard from Clefable? Yes, she has many uses outside of countering determined team)

 

[Mrobinson587]

Read my post and you see that i said exactly why she would be used... Because she hits hard and also can provide support options, not only because she can counter Rain Dance teams.
I said she needs to differ from Alakazam exactly because of that: she is outclassed by Alakazam if you play with 4 moves that Alakazam can use.
So, to use Gardevoir outside of countering RD teams, you need to use her best options that Alakazam can't use.

Gardy can provide Wish, burn things, put pokes to sleep... so she isn't just to make sure it can beat Rain teams. She can be useful through other means(how about Tracing Intimidate back to Hitmontop? or Tracing Ice Body from Walrein or Snow Cloak from Froslass? Even better, Trace Magic Guard from Clefable? Yes, she has many uses outside of countering determined team)

I think what someone needs to do is see if we can make a general purpose UU utility. I believe that is what the first spread attempts to do... However it's is written for OU and could probably be tweaked better for UU. I will see what I can come up. I'll also check Porygon2. It has less speed but it still might work.

 

[EvilMario]

But Aqua Jet it does not KO Gardevoir... Thunderbolt from Gardy does. As well as everyone else.
And please, don't count Swords Dance. It isn't guaranteed to get one.

Also, Gardevoir needs to differ itself from Alakazam(other than Trace) if you want a place for Gardy in the team(not counting countering RD teams) so it will need a option that Alakazam does not have. Hypnosis, Will-o-Wisp, Wish...

And i won't let Gardy switch in on a attack. NEVER. I just bring her if someone "dies". If Ludicolo(or any other teammate like Lanturn or Uxie or something) is low at health, and Gardy is high, it's GG for the enemy. Unless you use Sucker Punch Huntail(yes... all right.)

And if anyone uses Duggie you WILL need Will-o-Wisp, probably her best option to differ herself from Alakazam.
A good Gardy who serves as a RD counter and a good poke in your team is probably:

Gardevoir@Leftovers

Will-o-Wisp
Thunderbolt
Psychic
Focus Blast/Wish

A strong hard hitter who can support and counters RD teams(not completely, but once some key pokes are gone Gardy is free to sweep)

She's a fine Pokemon to switch into some Swift Swim abusers, but you're asking a lot. You're for one assuming there will be no switching in, just revenge killing. Second, you're assuming Gardevoir will have enough speed to outrun Kabutops, even though they're the exact same base speed. If Gardevoir is running max speed, does she have enough defense to survive that said Rain boosted Aqua Jet (possibly with Life Orb)? Are there any EVs required to make Thunderbolt a OHKO on a 4 HP Kabutops.. or a 172 HP Kabutops?

And she can't counter all Swift Swim abusers. As mentioned, Ludicolo will hang tough against most sets, and Floatzel will always outspeed (threatening with Crunch, or Watefall). She fails against Toxicroak too, or it's risky in many cases. She won't outspeed Jolly variants, possibly being hit by Dark Pulse, or Sucker Punch. If Toxicroak is extremely brave, it can Taunt Will-O-Wisp, but it will most likely prefer hiding under a Substitute.

A little more detail to clarify what the EXACT set should be.. would be great. I think Encore has a place on a set switching into a Swift Swimmer. For instance, Omastar leads the team. You predict either Spikes, or Rain Dance, and you switch in. You'll outpace him either way, and can Encore the setup move, allowing for a setup of your own, or for something else to switch in.

 

[LMK]

She's a fine Pokemon to switch into some Swift Swim abusers, but you're asking a lot. You're for one assuming there will be no switching in, just revenge killing. Second, you're assuming Gardevoir will have enough speed to outrun Kabutops, even though they're the exact same base speed. If Gardevoir is running max speed, does she have enough defense to survive that said Rain boosted Aqua Jet (possibly with Life Orb)? Are there any EVs required to make Thunderbolt a OHKO on a 4 HP Kabutops.. or a 172 HP Kabutops?

And she can't counter all Swift Swim abusers. As mentioned, Ludicolo will hang tough against most sets, and Floatzel will always outspeed (threatening with Crunch, or Watefall). She fails against Toxicroak too, or it's risky in many cases. She won't outspeed Jolly variants, possibly being hit by Dark Pulse, or Sucker Punch. If Toxicroak is extremely brave, it can Taunt Will-O-Wisp, but it will most likely prefer hiding under a Substitute.

A little more detail to clarify what the EXACT set should be.. would be great. I think Encore has a place on a set switching into a Swift Swimmer. For instance, Omastar leads the team. You predict either Spikes, or Rain Dance, and you switch in. You'll outpace him either way, and can Encore the setup move, allowing for a setup of your own, or for something else to switch in.

God it really pisses me off when my comp restarts to install updates. Here are the main points I was going to make.

-A lot of teams rely on revenge kills against rain sweepers so it would not be out of the ordinary for for Gardevoir to do the same thing.
- According to usage stats most Kabutops and Toxicroak are adamant so she would outspeed them in rain.
- I doubt it will take many Spa EV's to kill Tops or any other rain sweeper with t-bolt
- The big question is can she be EV'd to survive DoubleSTAB LO aquajet and suckerpunch
- If yes I say I'd say killing a major sweeper for a near dead Gardy is fair considering if she kills top she has the speed to kill any other rain sweeper switching in. Dry skin would provide nice healing if she could stay around long enough to get it.
- If Gardy has swiftswim traced (and its raining) then its all mind games between sucker punch and whatever utility she is running when facing dugtrio.

Psychic an t-bolt seem to be givens on her set and from their I suppose she can be tailored to what the team needs whether it'd be a certain kind of screen/WoW/taunt/Wish/heal bell/etc. There are also other viable times when Trace would be useful . I just want to know if the EV's required of her to perform in the rain make her ineffective in other battle conditions.

 

[MagicMaster87]

I'm so pissed off right now. I had written a fucking ESSAY about Gardevoir, complete with damage calcs and everything, only to find out when I'm almost done that it is pretty much null and void due to the fact that Expert Belt > Leftovers changes EVERYTHING.

Anyways, here's the set that I believe is best if you plan on using Gardevoir to counter Rain Dance teams:

Gardevoir @ Expert Belt
Nature: Timid
Ability: Trace
56 HP / 252 SDEF / 200 SPE
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Signal Beam
- Encore/Will-o-Wisp/filler

I don't feel like writing much anymore after having all that previous work destroyed by a simple item change, so I'm just gonna list the important stuff. 200 Speed + Timid beats Adamant Qwilfish, the fastest Swift Swimmer you can hope to outspeed. 56 HP and 252 SDEF allows it to take even Modest Omastar's LO Surf in the Rain, as well as non-boosted Kabutops' LO Aqua Jet.

With an Expert Belt, Thunderbolt always OHKOs 4/0 Kabutops and Gorebyss, and Signal Beam always 2HKOs 4/0 Ludicolo, even without any investment. Psychic is for Qwilfish and Toxicroak. Encore is if the opponent is running something like Toxicroak or Lanturn, you can switch in on their Sub/SD/NP or Thunder/T.Wave and Encore them, which also has the nice side effect of recovery through Trace. You can also use it on Qwilfish's or Ludicolo's SD if they use it as you switch in, or to Encore whatever sets up the Rain. Energy Ball is not recommended as Thunderbolt already takes care of Omastar and Kabutops, and it will not OHKO Gorebyss.

Unfortunately, since Gardevoir needs to invest so much in Speed, she can't focus as much on her defenses as would be preferable, so you can't switch into any of them, unless they are setting up Rain themselves.

 

[mite b cool]

Definatley want Will O Wisp on that, mainly because Toxicroak carries sucker punch.

Those numbers are impressive, even without any Special Attack EVs, Gardevoir can hurt things. Just wondering why you would have 252 SpD Evs when you are outspeeding Omastar in the rain anyways (unless you wanted to switch directly into Omastar, to trace his ability). Without any Special Defense EV's, what are the calculations of Ludicolos LO surf in the rain?

 

[The Real Lady Gaga]

I think that Omastar has really nothing to offer a rain team anymore. Sure, it has the highest Special Attack of any Swift Swim Pokemon, but it has so little to offer in addition to that. It's no faster than any other Pokemon that can take advantage of Rain. It can't beat strong Water-types like Milotic like Ludicolo can with Energy Ball. It can't beat Vacuum Wave Toxicroak, or Mach Punch Hitmontop. It literally does nothing better than Goreybyss does, and if you're talking about using two Special Pokemon to wear down the counters of the other, then you should be using Gorebyss + Ludicolo, since they can take out the Pokemon that the other can't.

He does have Earth Power, which can OHKO unsuspecting Toxicroak and take down Lanturn if he is circa 60% health.