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Out of curiosity, what keeps umbreon from deserving an ou analysis. Granted, he is not OU by usage but he functioned well last generation in OU and I have seen nothing (if i'm wrong please explain) this generation that would limit its uses significantly in comparison to last generation.
Out of curiosity, what keeps umbreon from deserving an ou analysis. Granted, he is not OU by usage but he functioned well last generation in OU and I have seen nothing (if i'm wrong please explain) this generation that would limit its uses significantly in comparison to last generation.
It can no longer baton pass mean looks. I have honestly tried making Umbreon good by giving it toxic spikes and sun support, but it just isn't OU viable.
Ok, it's kinda iffy, but I think a Blastoise set with Rain Dish, Aqua Ring, and Leftovers might be able to survive in OU (that is, if Drizzle Politoad is OU, haven't checked that yet) as a bulky water type.
Then again, that's probably my inner-child wishing Blastoise was just better.
After having thought it over a bit, I do think Dragon Dance Crawdaunt could do some damage in OU, where 1 DD can get you past certain defensive threats without having to predict (damn Slowbro coming in on my Waterfall). Even a simple Life Orb attack has the power to OHKO standard Rotom-W (after rocks) and Reuniclus most of the time. Its bulk is still very shitty, which is starting to become more of a problem in my recent test runs, but it has too much untapped potential to be considered unviable.
I'm going to revamp my team and see what I can do. There may be a series of logs coming up too.
This may have been brought up already, but I can't be asked to trawl through 36 other pages, but I think that Donphan should be considered. It got the Sturdy boost this gen, furthermore, it has access to both stealth rock and rapid spin (only 2 other pokemon get this) as well as the ever useful Ice shard and STAB EQ as well as a decent attck even when uninvested.
So many odd nominations...I would go to the UU forum and nominate what you're nominating for OU and see what happens. I see no more point in arguing because, it's been said many times, it's almost impossible to get an analysis now.
Out of curiosity, what keeps umbreon from deserving an ou analysis. Granted, he is not OU by usage but he functioned well last generation in OU and I have seen nothing (if i'm wrong please explain) this generation that would limit its uses significantly in comparison to last generation.
The problem here is that Umbreon sucked in Gen 4 and the environment in OU Gen 5 is much harsher on it than before. Everything hits MUCH harder and fighting types like Conkeldurr and Terrakion exist and would adore setting up on it. His movepool is very shallow as well and his Wishes aren't much to write home about. Also: Mean Look isn't Baton Passable.
More than just frailty, Crawdaunt is outclassed as a Water-type DDer by Gyarados and even Feraligatr. Feraligatr is faster, bulkier, has better defensive typing, and the Sheer Force boost is pretty much the same as Adaptability's (plus it affects even non-STAB moves).
Edit: Derp, Feraligatr isn't out yet. He may have a chance, I suppose...
'Water-type DDer'? Crawdaunt's primary objective isn't to DD and sweep, it's to break through defenses. All of them. All the time. Gyarados is very bad at doing that since its Waterfall is not at all powerful and it doesn't get a very reliable second STAB (beating Ferrothorn and Vaporeon with Protect is impossible) or Fighting move.
You see, Crawdaunt works theoretically because it cuts both walls and sweepers in half, and OHKOs Reuniclus reliably with just Life Orb. If you know you're not going to be faster than a check after DD, attack right out of the starting gate. But if your opponent's team is like Reuniclus, Ferrothorn Blissey, Heatran, they might as well ragequit.
I mean, it is a bit challenging to get a free turn for DD or getting in period, but there's a lot of payoff involved if you can U-turn into it.
Just throwing in my two cents here, I've been running a DD Crawdaunt in my team and I've played around with it a lot. MY RMT is here btw if you wanna check out what I'm supporting him with.
Substitute+Leftovers and DD has given me mixed results. I've overall liked the survivability of Crawdaunt. It's most useful in playing around with Ferrothorn and Jellicent, subbing when they try to Leech Seed or WoW respectively, and getting the extra DD in. By far, Daunt's greatest use on my team is reliably 1HKO'ing Jellicent, which my team gets severely walled by. Given SJCrew's comments, I think I'll start running Crabhammer>Waterfall and see how it goes. Other options I've run over Leftovers have been Lum Berry and Life Orb. Lum Berry was another counter to WoW, giving you the 1 free turn of DD. But it left Daunt without any sort of damage heal, which seems insignificant until your realize he can take a Scizor/Metagross Bullet Punch (hooray resistance!) from full health and survive, whilst 1HKO'ing back with a DD+rain crabhammer, and doing 73-87% on Metagross and 81%-95% on Scizor without rain (1 DD). Scizor hits harder than Metagross, and with 252 Atk, CB'd tech Bullet Punch, he's only doing 93-109 to Crawdaunt. With LO recoil, that can cut his streak short (having 267 HP with no investment), which is why I stopped using LO.
Main point I've found is that there are three ways to make Crawdaunt's setup OU viably fast.
1. If you're lucky, switch in on a pokemon Crawdaunt walls like Reun or Jelli, or if you're very lucky, a choiced psychic type. DD or sub on the switch depending on situation, and with Jolly+252 Speed EV's, Crawdaunt will outspeed base 105's, giving him real sweeping potential. Just watch for faster poke's in team preview before trying to set him up.
2. Drizzletoed means Crawdaunt has the 1.5x boost to his already 2x STAB water move right off the bat. Even without a DD, or attack boosting item, I've found that to be deadly.
3. Choice Band means switch in and hit hard right off the bat. Give him rain, provided you've taken care of any Quags, Jellis and Gastros and you can feel pretty safe in choicing a Crabhammer or Waterfall. And if they do exist, a Crunch is still really good.
I'll start saving and posting my logs. I'll look at redesigning my team without the Butterfree to make it more competitive, and I'll look into TR options as well.
Hey why can't Serperior be analyzed?
With It's DW Ability Contrary it can use a Leaf Storm and get a 2+ Boost in its SpeA. That is very powerful!
I volunteer to write it if possible.
Hey why can't Serperior be analyzed?
With It's DW Ability Contrary it can use a Leaf Storm and get a 2+ Boost in its SpeA. That is very powerful!
I volunteer to write it if possible.
The thing is, Fear, I would never use Crawdaunt without Drizzle support. If Politoed or Drizzle ever were to leave OU, you won't be hearing from me about him any more. The best chance it has of being OU viable is assuming Drizzle is up at all times.
Also, while I'm open to Leftovers, Sub+DD is unacceptable. His main draw is his remarkable power and unresisted coverage in the form of Waterfall/Crunch/Superpower. KOing Ferrothorn right away at +1 is extremely important. If you're not using the full extent of his capabilities, you're better off using a more reliable bander like Azu or Swampert.
The thing is, Fear, I would never use Crawdaunt without Drizzle support. If Politoed or Drizzle ever were to leave OU, you won't be hearing from me about him any more. The best chance it has of being OU viable is assuming Drizzle is up at all times.
Also, while I'm open to Leftovers, Sub+DD is unacceptable. His main draw is his remarkable power and unresisted coverage in the form of Waterfall/Crunch/Superpower. KOing Ferrothorn right away at +1 is extremely important. If you're not using the full extent of his capabilities, you're better off using a more reliable bander like Azu or Swampert.
I agree on the Toed front. Obviously part of my insistence is the internal fandom (He's so freakin awesome!) but that's just a side note now that he got a fun new ability that makes this conversation even feasible. I'll start running DD or CB + superpower, see how I like it. I would also say leftovers is only useful with sub. If you're not gonna use leftovers, you might as well go expert belt or life orb if you don't mind the recoil. Lum berry might also work.
If you were going to run a CB set, I'm thinking I'd go trick room support. 229 speed just doesn't cut it for me to bother investing in speed. Thus, there are 252 free EV's to disperse. Looking for advice on what people think would be better to invest into? 252 Def = 269 defence, which is actually fairly respectable. 252 SpD = 209 SpD, with 206 Def. That's not too shabby in terms of surviving at least one hit, but I don't think it'd be worth it. HP... probably not worth it either. Unless you wanted to go for 301HP to take Seismic tosses, but I don't think you'd bother with a choice set anyways.
Since UU is finally forming up and even the RU tier has been created, maybe this thread can finally see closure. Many Pokemon have been argued for at this point (multiple times for many of them) and I think we've gotten a better idea of what fits in which tier now. Just an idea (if needed, I guess they can leave it open for discussion as more DW Pokemon are released, but we're seeing a lot of the same arguments right now).
Since UU is finally forming up and even the RU tier has been created, maybe this thread can finally see closure. Many Pokemon have been argued for at this point (multiple times for many of them) and I think we've gotten a better idea of what fits in which tier now. Just an idea (if needed, I guess they can leave it open for discussion as more DW Pokemon are released, but we're seeing a lot of the same arguments right now).
Seaking is unfit for analysis with the rain rampant OU? lol. The buffed lightning rod + STAB Rain boosted Lrod boosted LO hpump kills almost anything in 1 shot. Seaking is possibly thunderous's best counter for thunderous, and while his speed is somewhat lacking, it is enough to outspeed many no-investment pokes. With a tiny amount of hp investment, he can survive STAB 120 power moves from neutral base 130 attackers. Think that seaking can help any rain team by absorbing electric attacks, and fighting back with +3 (stab lrod and rain) hydro pumps.
That's not how boosts are calculated first off mach, nothing is considered at +2 because it has a DD and a STAB boost in a weather because the boost in a stat compared to a STAB boost are leagues apart. This is before even mentioning Life Orb which adds significantly less than the aforementioned.
To go on your point of Seaking being a Thundurus counter... I just lol at this hard. Sure he might be immune to his electric stab but the thing is Seaking will still be ko'd by a Focus Blast or a Grass Knot which many Thundrus like carrying on their set for specific threats. This is before even mentioning that you can't simultaneously say he can outspeed non-invested speed Pokemon and still talk about adding to his bulk. Seaking has 68 base speed an area almost no Pokemon in the OU environment will be around normally meaning you'll have to invest heavily in speed to outrun even non-speed EV'd Pokemon. His natural bulk is also nothing to write home about either, 65 base def, 80 base HP and 80 sp def is pretty much the same bulk Lucario has and he doesn't survive anything at all.
tl;dr: Seaking is awful and probably shouldn't even see the light of UU.
That's not how boosts are calculated first off mach, nothing is considered at +2 because it has a DD and a STAB boost in a weather because the boost in a stat compared to a STAB boost are leagues apart. This is before even mentioning Life Orb which adds significantly less than the aforementioned.
To go on your point of Seaking being a Thundurus counter... I just lol at this hard. Sure he might be immune to his electric stab but the thing is Seaking will still be ko'd by a Focus Blast or a Grass Knot which many Thundrus like carrying on their set for specific threats. This is before even mentioning that you can't simultaneously say he can outspeed non-invested speed Pokemon and still talk about adding to his bulk. Seaking has 68 base speed an area almost no Pokemon in the OU environment will be around normally meaning you'll have to invest heavily in speed to outrun even non-speed EV'd Pokemon. His natural bulk is also nothing to write home about either, 65 base def, 80 base HP and 80 sp def is pretty much the same bulk Lucario has and he doesn't survive anything at all.
tl;dr: Seaking is awful and probably shouldn't even see the light of UU.
First off i know how boosts are calcuated. However, was posting it to make a point. Also, life orb max specialA neutral nature using focus blast on no spD seaking does 216 damage on average, meanwhile, hydro pump is an easy OHKO back. Also, seaking's weight makes grass knot have 60 power, which doubled has the same amount as fblast. so...
Seaking is too weak, too slow, and has a crappy movepool. What good is the boost when you can't even take advantage of it? It cannot keep up with OU at all and right now, I'm having trouble deciding how it can fit on a team.
