Doesnt it get weather ball?
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What aren't we writing about? (Pokemon unfit for OU Analyses)
- Thread starter Seven Deadly Sins
- Start date
@Paradoxus
if you read over the previous page of this thread, or do some research on serebii, you'd see that one cannot run weather ball AND power whip do to breeding incompatibilities. So for the set recently posted above, one would have to have power whip/hidden power, or seed bomb/weather ball. I'm not sure which is preferable in this case
edit: power whip is likely preferable though having not done any calculations, this is just speculation...anyway, +2 seedbomb without significant investment is likely inadequate if your looking for the 2hko on chancey (probs blissey too)
if you read over the previous page of this thread, or do some research on serebii, you'd see that one cannot run weather ball AND power whip do to breeding incompatibilities. So for the set recently posted above, one would have to have power whip/hidden power, or seed bomb/weather ball. I'm not sure which is preferable in this case
edit: power whip is likely preferable though having not done any calculations, this is just speculation...anyway, +2 seedbomb without significant investment is likely inadequate if your looking for the 2hko on chancey (probs blissey too)
throwing around those sorts of numbers serves no practical purpose. what matters most is how the attacks in question fair against their intended targets. i.e leaf blade vs blissey/chancey, powerwhip vs blissey/chancey, hidden power fire under the sun vs metagross/specially defensive jirachi/etc vs weather ball under the sun vs those same targets.
Moving away from this trifecta of sun sweepers (venasaur/shiftry/victreebel) there is one that has been seemingly ignored by SDS: Exeggutor. He has more bulk than victreebel (80/65/60) and shiftry (90/60/60) with 95/85/65 defenses, with the same critical priority resists as venasaur/victreebel (aqua jet/mach punch/vacuum wave,) useful resists for a chlorophyll abuser who doesn't necessarily need to worry about being out-sped.
His combined mix attacking stats (if one decides to use his slightly above average attack as opposed to just running with his excellent special attack) are better than venasaur, shiftry, and victreebel's, with 95/125 offenses. Admittedly he misses out on growth, but he does have access to swords dance and a solid physical movepool, with wood hammer, seed bomb, zen headbutt (psychic being at least a little better of a secondary stab than sludge bomb for victreebel/venasaur), low kick, and nature power (which functions as earthquake).
While he lacks a way to boost his special attack, he can certainly make do with attacking outright, with moves like leaf storm, giga drain, psyshock to deal with blissey/chancey, (his special movepool is actually pretty shallow, outside of psychic and hidden power, that's just about it).
Exeggutor has access to quasi-reliable healing with synthesis/moonlight and leech seed, in addition to the extremely useful sleep powder (in addition to stun spore) for incapacitating counters.
Oh wait, he has a dream world ability, something that lets him abuse quasi-hydration rest in the sun with lum berry+harvest? and infinite use sitrus berry? and access to dual screens if he's trying to stall (probably not the greatest idea with his sub-par defensive typing, but it could have potential combined with harvest)? Harvest Exeggutor's been covered solidly elsewhere in this thread, but is one more reason why exeggutor is deserving of OU analysis.
It must be noted that chlorophyll abusers only fit into metagames that feature permanent sun (ou+ubers), so regardless of how effective they are in those arenas, those are the places that they fit in best: without perma-sun, pokemon such as victreebel and shiftry would have limited if any use.
SDS, if you could please post with a yes or no to analyses on Victreebel and Exeggutor, that would be much appreciated, as you have not had definitive posts on either to this point in this thread. Thank you
Moving away from this trifecta of sun sweepers (venasaur/shiftry/victreebel) there is one that has been seemingly ignored by SDS: Exeggutor. He has more bulk than victreebel (80/65/60) and shiftry (90/60/60) with 95/85/65 defenses, with the same critical priority resists as venasaur/victreebel (aqua jet/mach punch/vacuum wave,) useful resists for a chlorophyll abuser who doesn't necessarily need to worry about being out-sped.
His combined mix attacking stats (if one decides to use his slightly above average attack as opposed to just running with his excellent special attack) are better than venasaur, shiftry, and victreebel's, with 95/125 offenses. Admittedly he misses out on growth, but he does have access to swords dance and a solid physical movepool, with wood hammer, seed bomb, zen headbutt (psychic being at least a little better of a secondary stab than sludge bomb for victreebel/venasaur), low kick, and nature power (which functions as earthquake).
While he lacks a way to boost his special attack, he can certainly make do with attacking outright, with moves like leaf storm, giga drain, psyshock to deal with blissey/chancey, (his special movepool is actually pretty shallow, outside of psychic and hidden power, that's just about it).
Exeggutor has access to quasi-reliable healing with synthesis/moonlight and leech seed, in addition to the extremely useful sleep powder (in addition to stun spore) for incapacitating counters.
Oh wait, he has a dream world ability, something that lets him abuse quasi-hydration rest in the sun with lum berry+harvest? and infinite use sitrus berry? and access to dual screens if he's trying to stall (probably not the greatest idea with his sub-par defensive typing, but it could have potential combined with harvest)? Harvest Exeggutor's been covered solidly elsewhere in this thread, but is one more reason why exeggutor is deserving of OU analysis.
It must be noted that chlorophyll abusers only fit into metagames that feature permanent sun (ou+ubers), so regardless of how effective they are in those arenas, those are the places that they fit in best: without perma-sun, pokemon such as victreebel and shiftry would have limited if any use.
SDS, if you could please post with a yes or no to analyses on Victreebel and Exeggutor, that would be much appreciated, as you have not had definitive posts on either to this point in this thread. Thank you
Many players prefer reliability. Leaf Blade + Weather Ball is the most reliable attack combination in sun. For me, reliability and practicality go hand in hand.
Assuming max Attack and max Speed, +2 Leaf Blade still OHKOs max/max Blissey after Stealth Rock while +2 Weather Ball OHKOs max/max Jirachi. Power Whip secures the OHKO on Chansey; however +2 Hidden Power Fire from 4 SpA netural-natured Victreebel cannot OHKO max/max Jirachi.
Both options are viable; I was simply expressing my opinion on the subject. There is no need to be so abrasive with your replies. A bit of tact, and patience, goes a long way on these forums.
Assuming max Attack and max Speed, +2 Leaf Blade still OHKOs max/max Blissey after Stealth Rock while +2 Weather Ball OHKOs max/max Jirachi. Power Whip secures the OHKO on Chansey; however +2 Hidden Power Fire from 4 SpA netural-natured Victreebel cannot OHKO max/max Jirachi.
Both options are viable; I was simply expressing my opinion on the subject. There is no need to be so abrasive with your replies. A bit of tact, and patience, goes a long way on these forums.
I get 162 for Power Whip (120*1.5*1.0625*.85). Also I get
Victreebel@Life Orb (4 EVs, Neutral Nature, +2) Searing Shot vs Jirachi@Leftovers (252/224 EVs, +Nature): 102.4 ~ 120.7% (414 ~ 488 HP) (SunShine)
So Leaf Blade+Weather Ball is probably the primary option - although giving it an option should probably be our first priority in this discussion ;)
Furthermore, Power Whip / HP Fire doesn't have anything on Tangrowth, who has higher Attack, Special Attack, and much better defenses to utilize those two moves (all four of them actually). The only thing that Victreebel outclasses Tangrowth with the same set is its high base Speed stat. Leaf Blade + Weather Ball seems quite a bit more viable.
And I'm so glad that people are still supporting Exeggutor <3. Again, I am more than willing to write up the analysis, as I have play-tested with him quite a bit with both Harvest and Chlorophyll sets. Its base power Special Attack allows it to immediately become a threat under Sun, even without Growth, and hit hard from a variety of angles. Here's a post I made quite a while ago about how Exeggutor can not only compete adequately on an offensive level, but also on a defensive level against the likes of Breloom, Conkeldurr, Ferrothorn, and Gliscor.
And I'm so glad that people are still supporting Exeggutor <3. Again, I am more than willing to write up the analysis, as I have play-tested with him quite a bit with both Harvest and Chlorophyll sets. Its base power Special Attack allows it to immediately become a threat under Sun, even without Growth, and hit hard from a variety of angles. Here's a post I made quite a while ago about how Exeggutor can not only compete adequately on an offensive level, but also on a defensive level against the likes of Breloom, Conkeldurr, Ferrothorn, and Gliscor.
To be fair, Victreebel has the higher Attack stat by 5 points and takes Special attacks approximately as well due to its higher Special Defense. Tangrowth's Speed is problematic as well, since Tangrowth can't even hit 400 Speed without a positive nature (which you cannot use without sacrificing damage output). This means any max-speed Scarf Pokemon with at least 72 Base Speed will outspeed it, while Victreebel doesn't need to worry until closer to Base 100. I would still run Leaf Blade + Weather Ball for a mixed set, though, due to how often a Fire attack is needed.
I'd be torn on running Power Whip on a physical set, too, since it's incompatible with Sucker Punch. Of course, at that point you need to wonder if it wouldn't be better to just run Shiftry, but that's another point entirely.
That post would be much more convincing if it didn't suggest putting Breloom to Sleep. Just sayin'.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
Exactly why is Claydol unfit for an OU analysis? It definitely has a niche of countering sand sweepers (Landorus, Excadrill without X-Scissor, Terakion, etc.) and has plenty of support options like Rapid Spin, Dual Screens and Stealth Rock. It's also reasonably bulky and has a decent defensive typing.
Without a reliable source of healing outside of Leftovers, Claydol won't be taking on said threats for very long. That, combined with its fairly low offensive potential means that Claydol will either need to EV itself, specifically, to avoid or net a 2HKO / OHKO under normal conditions. Being weak to Pursuit and U-turn doesn't really help Claydol's case, either. Given its already said weaknesses, Claydol unfortunately falls (far) behind Forretress as a spinner - Forry has access to a much stronger STAB option in Gyro Ball, Sturdy, can keep the momentum going with Volt Switch, set up multiple entry hazards, and at least has Pain Split - making it 'unworthy' of an OU analysis.
That move gets very little action on Forry. Much less then Ice+Ground coverage.
Claydol's unique typing sets it apart. Its levitate ability adds on to make it immune to hazards so its much harder to wear down then Forry and easier to wish pass to. Forretress can very rarely counter anything with SR up while Claydol is a nice pivot to the sand monsters Super Mario Bro brought up. Carrying Rock/Ground/Fighting and electric resists is completely unique and mixed in with its spikes immunity, SR resist and respectable 60/105/120 defenses it can be very useful.
Edit- Why are you bringing up Sturdy to prove its the superior spinner? Levitate is much more fitting. Preserving your spinner is KEY on a defensive team. Sacking it by using Sturdy will cripple you severly.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
The fact that Claydol is immune to pretty much all entry hazards and sandstorm negates the fact that it has no reliable recovery outside of lefties. Bronzong doesn't have any way to heal either, and it's been doing just fine...
Claydol can use reflect if it's truly concerned about those moves.
While it does have some weaknesses, it also has resistances that Forry would kill for. It can come in on things like Tyranitar's choiced Stone Edge, Close Combats, Excadrill's Earthquake among other things and use rapid spin. Not to mention that Claydol kills things that Forry would be set up bait for, like Gliscor (in general, it checks a lot more threats). Also, I think it can be pretty much agreed upon that neither Forretress nor Claydol can break through many spinblockers.
Yes, but it has pretty pathetic coverage too. Claydol's STAB Earthquake coupled with Ice Beam can hit much of OU for super effective damage.
Levitate is better
FUK overnight responses 9.9
Also, Gyro Ball is a staple on Forretress. Since when does that merit to "gets very little action"?
Most of the Pokemon carrying Close Combat normally have a method of KOing Claydol after it switches in, such as Payback and Megahorn. That only leaves out Terrakion, who 'can' carry a Choice Band and simply dish out as much damage as possible. Doryuuzu commonly runs an Air Balloon, which means that Claydol has to take a +2 attack in order to either spin off any entry hazards, or even have a shot at beating Dory.
With what offenses, exactly? 70/70 attacking stats aren't exactly stellar, and Claydol needs power in order to actually check the aforementioned Pokemon. Coverage doesn't really matter when Claydol hits like a mosquito. Claydol's niche in OU last gen was simply spinning and exploding, which obviously won't be as effective in this metagame due to Explosion having been nerfed. Ice Beam keeps Gliscor and Lando in check - but for how long? While I haven't used Claydol extensively in OU, I HAVE used it on a few occasions while trying out various teams. Wearing Claydol down is fairly easy because it lacks Steel typing, unlike Bronzong and Forretress, and / or reliable healing like Roost and Recover.
Also, Gyro Ball is a staple on Forretress. Since when does that merit to "gets very little action"?
In what [common] case will Tyranitar be spamming a Choice-locked Stone Edge? A lot players still have their heads up their asses and are still running Specially Defensive MixTar for one. Secondly, given that team preview exists, it should be fairly obvious that Tyranitar risks Claydol switching in by haphazardly using Stone Edge. Forry, nor Gliscor for that matter don't really give a crap about non-Banded Stone Edges, as both can use them as setup fodder.
Most of the Pokemon carrying Close Combat normally have a method of KOing Claydol after it switches in, such as Payback and Megahorn. That only leaves out Terrakion, who 'can' carry a Choice Band and simply dish out as much damage as possible. Doryuuzu commonly runs an Air Balloon, which means that Claydol has to take a +2 attack in order to either spin off any entry hazards, or even have a shot at beating Dory.
Sturdy is unique to Forretress, as it serves as a "last ditch" option against most offensive teams. I never said that it's beneficial to Forretress as a spinner, nor that it's any better than Levitate. I was merely pointing out a niche that Forretress has over Claydol, and for that matter, other spinners.
Forretress can at least use the time that it has vs spinblockers to either heal, lay down more entry hazards, or Volt Switch for scouting purposes.
Bronzong has Steel-typing, great defenses, offenses, just about the same amount of support options (it can even run Rain Dance very well if truly needed), and doesn't have to run Reflect in order to prevent itself from becoming bait for Scizor, Tyranitar, or any other physical attacker. Bronzong has been just fine because its overall more useful to the average team than Claydol is.
What do you mean, "truly concerned about those moves"? Claydol FEARS being stuck in a situation which it has to decide between staying in or getting raped by Pursuit. Given that it's running Reflect as well, Starmie doesn't give a shittle about Pursuit thanks to both Natural Cure and Recover.
Never said that it isn't.
True, I guess Leaf Blade + Weatherball is more reliable. So, I hope Victreebel is added to the Original Post.
I find myself coming back here everynow and then to see if anything has been said about exeggutor and still nothing, nobody has said blatently hes a bad poke and hes not, he can be used many different ways, he has the highest special attack of any grass type pokemon and with cholrophyll can do alot of damage, not to mention harvest which allows him to set up free of status, have the best recovery in the game, and stall out any poke not resistant to toxic. In my experience Exeggutor on a sunteam is very usefull and definately deserves an OU analysis.
Eggy actually gets all the speed it needs. It outspeeds most of the OU metagame, when the sun is up. Scarfs are almost non-existant in OU, and since this is in the sun, it outspeeds excadrill naturally.
The problem is Exeguttor's movepool, in OU it gets walled so easily. All it has is energy ball, psychic, and then your already on your hidden power. Not to mention it also doesn't have growth, so unlike other sun sweepers, nuetral isn't enough as far as coverage goes.
The problem is Exeguttor's movepool, in OU it gets walled so easily. All it has is energy ball, psychic, and then your already on your hidden power. Not to mention it also doesn't have growth, so unlike other sun sweepers, nuetral isn't enough as far as coverage goes.
Is Tangela out? I didn't see him on the list, but I haven't seen an analysis for him, in any tier.
Or is it common knowledge that Tangrowth is superior?
Thanks!
Or is it common knowledge that Tangrowth is superior?
Thanks!
Yeah, Tengela can't do anything even with its better defenses. And if you actually do the calculations, there isn't that much of a difference, as after you add in leftovers recovery the damage is basically the same.
Although I hear its decent in RU.
Ursaring should get a spot in the OU tier. I use it all the time in my OU team and it is one of the best Pokemon I have. Here's my proof.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3452466
Try it on PO, it'll work wonders.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3452466
Try it on PO, it'll work wonders.
Apparently, we've reached a point where I don't think any more Pokemon will get taken off the Unfit List, except when some Pokemon's DW abilities are released. I could say that even if all DW abilities were released, the only pokemon that might get taken off the list are maybe Sandslash, Alakazam, maybe Hitmonlee, Ditto, Feraligatr, maybe Sableye, maybe Volbeat (it gets Prankster from the DW, and it learns Tail Glow, among other things), Serperior, and maybe Cinccino. Given the glacial pace at which the Dream World updates, we might not see some of these until the end of Generation 5, or worse. There's also the three event legends, though they probably won't be released for quite a while.