Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Moyashi]

I think it's too early to tell if it's centralizing - spammed on the ladder after a new release does not necessarily equate to centralizing. It's pretty fast but not amazingly, can get up veil relatively easily, but has problems with Stealth Rock (which it shares with Bax) the now-common Knock and a couple pretty notable weaknesses to steel and fire. We'll see if it continues but people are already adapting to Veil spam and it's increasingly becoming a matchup fish archetype rather than the unstoppable one we thought it was. Stacking weaknesses with its buddy Bax doesn't help either- Ghold Gambit and Scizor are kind of eating these teams right now and it just takes one misplay for things to go south for them

Gholdengo has to run air balloon to not get folded by back and scizor isn't really that great beyond these match ups. Calling it "increasingly a match up fish" because people are overprepped for it due to how strong the style is. You're really underselling how strong veil teams are, especially as they're backed by especially strong mons like Manaphy and KommoO.

 

[G-Luke]

Hi! I'm here to raise more anarchy and ask:
1. How many "broken" pokemon are deemed such due to items? How many Garmanitans, Kyurems, Urshifus, and other mons die because fat isn't thicc enough to tank banded blows anymore?

Given that the game has pivoted to a far more fishy aggro style, is it time to finally talk about the years of mons banned due to choice band/specs? (not the sole reason most of that ish got the boot, but the choice sets are certainly PART of the discussion).
There are probably more new mons that are going to get banned due to band and specs. Just saying.

2. How is there still not an item clause? I honestly think that there are enough playable items to implement a clause that would improve the game. It would've ended the miserable HDB debate of last gen, and I honestly think with Leftovers, Sludge, rocky helmet, HDB, Booster Energy, Scarf, Choice items, Assault Vest, Covert Cloak, Light Clay, Life Orb, Air Balloon, Weather rocks, and whatever other more niche items i'm forgetting, you can actually have some real decisions in teambuilding. Who gets my Life Orb? Do I just run Blackglasses on Kingambit since I'm going to spam Kowtow anyway?

I really think there are enough items that it would encourage players to think about their teams and balance rather than Mike's Red Hot Leftovers "I just slap that **** on everything!"

I don't think it would address any issues or whatever, but... just want to bring this up, since there are already big changes coming, what's a few more ideas for the furnace?

Items aren't even samey samey this gen. U probably have 1 Booster Energy, 1 Choice Item, 1 / 2 Boots, 1 / 2 Lefties and things like AV, Colbur Berry, Loaded Dice, Life Orb and the mix all varying on team structure. What would an item clause change for the average team structure? Offense and Bulky Offense the dominant play styles barely changes, balance is pretty much dead regardless and Stall would just die if they can't spam Boots. Literally no positives come from enforcing item clauses, item selection is the most diverse it has been outside of Gen 7.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Hi! I'm here to raise more anarchy and ask:
1. How many "broken" pokemon are deemed such due to items? How many Garmanitans, Kyurems, Urshifus, and other mons die because fat isn't thicc enough to tank banded blows anymore?

Given that the game has pivoted to a far more fishy aggro style, is it time to finally talk about the years of mons banned due to choice band/specs? (not the sole reason most of that ish got the boot, but the choice sets are certainly PART of the discussion).
There are probably more new mons that are going to get banned due to band and specs. Just saying.

2. How is there still not an item clause? I honestly think that there are enough playable items to implement a clause that would improve the game. It would've ended the miserable HDB debate of last gen, and I honestly think with Leftovers, Sludge, rocky helmet, HDB, Booster Energy, Scarf, Choice items, Assault Vest, Covert Cloak, Light Clay, Life Orb, Air Balloon, Weather rocks, and whatever other more niche items i'm forgetting, you can actually have some real decisions in teambuilding. Who gets my Life Orb? Do I just run Blackglasses on Kingambit since I'm going to spam Kowtow anyway?

I really think there are enough items that it would encourage players to think about their teams and balance rather than Mike's Red Hot Leftovers "I just slap that **** on everything!"

I don't think it would address any issues or whatever, but... just want to bring this up, since there are already big changes coming, what's a few more ideas for the furnace?

Wait, there isn't an item clause...?

I just kinda implicitly assumed there always was one....

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

2. How is there still not an item clause? I honestly think that there are enough playable items to implement a clause that would improve the game. It would've ended the miserable HDB debate of last gen, and I honestly think with Leftovers, Sludge, rocky helmet, HDB, Booster Energy, Scarf, Choice items, Assault Vest, Covert Cloak, Light Clay, Life Orb, Air Balloon, Weather rocks, and whatever other more niche items i'm forgetting, you can actually have some real decisions in teambuilding. Who gets my Life Orb? Do I just run Blackglasses on Kingambit since I'm going to spam Kowtow anyway?

I really think there are enough items that it would encourage players to think about their teams and balance rather than Mike's Red Hot Leftovers "I just slap that **** on everything!"

I don't think it would address any issues or whatever, but... just want to bring this up, since there are already big changes coming, what's a few more ideas for the furnace?

Item Clause does not in any way help the metagame, and is a generally pretty bad and arbitrary rule all things considered. It's literally diversity for the sake of diversity and generally results in the same kind of thing happening that happens when you do little to no bans- yes, you technically have more options, but you get a net negative in viable Pokemon. You think hazards are bad now? See what happens when half your team can not only not have Heavy Duty Boots, but they can't even heal off the chip damage done by hazards. The last thing we want is for Smogon to end up like VGC's awful hellscape of a "metagame", and item clause would only push us further towards its HO-only shitfest.

I'm convinced people begging for item clause in singles have literally never bothered to play the game for longer than an hour. It's a transparently awful idea.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Played about 40 games today. New mons are always fun but it's looking like a mess. Screens HO will become manageable in a few weeks like it always does after a new meta/dlc drop. No reason to jump to gun saying we need to ban this or that. Just play this messy meta until DLC2. There won't be any suspects or quick bans as it would be basically pointless. I also keep seeing Volc brought up. Listen, y'all barely banned Pao, and Gambit should have gone, and don't get me started on Tera- so no way council was going to leave something like Volc up to a vote. It would have passed because we have a trend this gen of voting against our best interests. The council stepping up and handling Volc is the best thing they've done all meta.
Anyway, this is a goofy time where we shouldn't take much seriously. The meta doesn't become solidified until post DLC2, and there's no reason to try and tweak this invalid meta. Tera inherently adds +10 to the clown factor, so just take a pie to the face and honk your nose while we wait for the other half of the circus to arrive. See ya then.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Played about 40 games today. New mons are always fun but it's looking like a mess. Screens HO will become manageable in a few weeks like it always does after a new meta/dlc drop. No reason to jump to gun saying we need to ban this or that. Just play this messy meta until DLC2. There won't be any suspects or quick bans as it would be basically pointless. I also keep seeing Volc brought up. Listen, y'all barely banned Pao, and Gambit should have gone, and don't get me started on Tera- so no way council was going to leave something like Volc up to a vote. It would have passed because we have a trend this gen of voting against our best interests. The council stepping up and handling Volc is the best thing they've done all meta.
Anyway, this is a goofy time where we shouldn't take much seriously. The meta doesn't become solidified until post DLC2, and there's no reason to try and tweak this invalid meta. Tera inherently adds +10 to the clown factor, so just take a pie to the face and honk your nose while we wait for the other half of the circus to arrive. See ya then.

It's times like these I wish the council had some way to overrule obviously bad community decisions. If we don't get our act together, this generation is 100% going to be looked back upon the exact same way as Gen 5 is today, except even worse, because it was the community acting like a bunch of morons this time.

 

[Moyashi]

Played about 40 games today. New mons are always fun but it's looking like a mess. Screens HO will become manageable in a few weeks like it always does after a new meta/dlc drop. No reason to jump to gun saying we need to ban this or that. Just play this messy meta until DLC2. There won't be any suspects or quick bans as it would be basically pointless. I also keep seeing Volc brought up. Listen, y'all barely banned Pao, and Gambit should have gone, and don't get me started on Tera- so no way council was going to leave something like Volc up to a vote. It would have passed because we have a trend this gen of voting against our best interests. The council stepping up and handling Volc is the best thing they've done all meta.
Anyway, this is a goofy time where we shouldn't take much seriously. The meta doesn't become solidified until post DLC2, and there's no reason to try and tweak this invalid meta. Tera inherently adds +10 to the clown factor, so just take a pie to the face and honk your nose while we wait for the other half of the circus to arrive. See ya then.

Could you cut the bad faith? The council is watching the metagame develop and pretty sure Finch has specifically said on Twitter there would be a survey soon. Saying just play this messy meta until dlc2 is just not constructive or helpful. If stuff is broken now, like people may find bax to be, then something can be done if necessary.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Could you cut the bad faith? The council is watching the metagame develop and pretty sure Finch has specifically said on Twitter there would be a survey soon. Saying just play this messy meta until dlc2 is just not constructive or helpful. If stuff is broken now, like people may find bax to be, then something can be done if necessary.

People say this anytime LoseToRU? criticizes the current metagame. You can't just accuse people of arguing in bad faith unless you can show somehow they are. Do they exaggerate/put things in a goofy way (i.e. the circus comment)? Yes, but I don't think that invalidates any of their arguments. The metagame is a mess and will be no matter what we do, partially on account of Game Freak actively trying to make Singles worse to play to promote their own metagame, and partially on account of certain decisions the community has made (tera, gambit, etc.).

The community so far has shown that they are entirely unwilling to deal with obviously broken things. Why wouldn't they just assume you guys are going to leave things as is and keep playing in this matchup-fishy hellhole of a metagame?

 

[jdcomix]

People say this anytime LoseToRU? criticizes the current metagame. You can't just accuse people of arguing in bad faith unless you can show somehow they are. Do they exaggerate/put things in a goofy way (i.e. the circus comment)? Yes, but I don't think that invalidates any of their arguments. The metagame is a mess and will be no matter what we do, partially on account of Game Freak actively trying to make Singles worse to play to promote their own metagame, and partially on account of certain decisions the community has made (tera, gambit, etc.).

The community so far has shown that they are entirely unwilling to deal with obviously broken things. Why wouldn't they just assume you guys are going to leave things as is and keep playing in this matchup-fishy hellhole of a metagame?

With all due respect, LoseToRU? didn't even give any constructive criticism of the metagame or suggestions of things to do outside of "just play the game lol"

 

[Magcargo]

Gholdengo has to run air balloon to not get folded by back and scizor isn't really that great beyond these match ups. Calling it "increasingly a match up fish" because people are overprepped for it due to how strong the style is. You're really underselling how strong veil teams are, especially as they're backed by especially strong mons like Manaphy and KommoO.

Repeating myself, but Rilla's G-Terrain is also a powerful support option for various steels to make them more reliable checks. +2 Bax has a sub 1% chance to 2hko defensive leftovers Ghold with EQ under G-Terrain iirc.

 

[Moyashi]

People say this anytime LoseToRU? criticizes the current metagame.

They didn't criticize the metagame. They just "lol just play the funny meta til dlc2". This is neither constructive nor critical.

The metagame is a mess and will be no matter what we do, partially on account of Game Freak actively trying to make Singles worse to play to promote their own metagame, and partially on account of certain decisions the community has made (tera, gambit, etc.).

Sorry but with all due respect, this somewhat asinine. The game is pretty wild and we've had lots of things to work through, but the game is not unplayable let alone unsalvageable. You're free to not like tera (I'm not super huge on it myself), but taking this attitude of acting like the community was wrong for voting how they did around it is just not it. Gambit sticking around sucks, but more people have felt regret on not banning it before and it's always possible to look at it again.

The community so far has shown that they are entirely unwilling to deal with obviously broken things. Why wouldn't they just assume you guys are going to leave things as is and keep playing in this matchup-fishy hellhole of a metagame?

Stop the bull.

 

[Rootb]

With all due respect, LoseToRU? didn't even give any constructive criticism of the metagame or suggestions of things to do outside of "just play the game lol"

The constructive criticism is "it's still fun, but it's definitely broken. and you guys don't seem to want to ban anything, so just go along for the ride".

It's a completely reasonable position for someone who would prefer a teraless meta! The fact that they're having fun is a good thing, and it is very much a failure of the community to identify even a single thing they actually want to ban.

 

[CheesyBrie]

Item Clause does not in any way help the metagame, and is a generally pretty bad and arbitrary rule all things considered. It's literally diversity for the sake of diversity and generally results in the same kind of thing happening that happens when you do little to no bans- yes, you technically have more options, but you get a net negative in viable Pokemon. You think hazards are bad now? See what happens when half your team can not only not have Heavy Duty Boots, but they can't even heal off the chip damage done by hazards. The last thing we want is for Smogon to end up like VGC's awful hellscape of a "metagame", and item clause would only push us further towards its HO-only shitfest.

I'm convinced people begging for item clause in singles have literally never bothered to play the game for longer than an hour. It's a transparently awful idea.

Just commenting on this one to say that I'm not "begging for an item clause."
I'm curious, and I stand by my statement from last year that Stealth Rocks should have been banned five generations ago. But we're not here about that.
Also VGC pre-legendaries is and always will be a better metagame than the past ten years of OU combined.
Kay byyyye~~!!!

 

[jdcomix]

Let's move on to something else
How is

faring in the meta? Sun seems like a decent anti-meta pick (in my head, at least, I'm low ladder for a reason), especially with Hearthflame Ogerpon running around everywhere (sorry if the pic is too big idk where to find the neat little pics of the pokemon lol)

 

[Bugboy]

People say this anytime LoseToRU? criticizes the current metagame. You can't just accuse people of arguing in bad faith unless you can show somehow they are. Do they exaggerate/put things in a goofy way (i.e. the circus comment)? Yes, but I don't think that invalidates any of their arguments. The metagame is a mess and will be no matter what we do, partially on account of Game Freak actively trying to make Singles worse to play to promote their own metagame, and partially on account of certain decisions the community has made (tera, gambit, etc.).

The community so far has shown that they are entirely unwilling to deal with obviously broken things. Why wouldn't they just assume you guys are going to leave things as is and keep playing in this matchup-fishy hellhole of a metagame?

Bro you are literally arguing to overrule a majority vote. That is bad faith because you assume that everybody who voted made a mistake, but in reality they just voted for the metagame they enjoyed.

 

[CheesyBrie]

Oh and as for everyone else:
Thank you for a really good, insightful conversation.
Honestly, it makes sense when you put in perspective. "Diversity for the sake of diversity" is something I think is great, but you (collectively all) are right:
It wouldn't shore up (eyyy Palossand where you at?) any of the current issues in the metagame, AND item diversity would hinder already struggling strategies!
I can totally see that side of things, so thank you all for pointing it out with your own individual perspectives!

 

[Real Pikachu]

Let's move on to something else
How is View attachment 552254faring in the meta? Sun seems like a decent anti-meta pick (in my head, at least, I'm low ladder for a reason), especially with Hearthflame Ogerpon running around everywhere (sorry if the pic is too big idk where to find the neat little pics of the pokemon lol)

lil bro sadly gets absolutely goobed by Bax, Manaphy, Ogerpon-Corner, Tuskothy, Donbozo, Rotom-W, both Lunas, Conk, Clod, Kommo-o, Garg, Heatran, Sandy, Ting, and Wake. It also gets absolutely volt/flip/u-turned on by the entire metagame and if you're running boots to not eat shit to hazards you're only getting 5 turns of sun.

 

[Moyashi]

The constructive criticism is "it's still fun, but it's definitely broken. and you guys don't seem to want to ban anything, so just go along for the ride".

It's a completely reasonable position for someone who would prefer a teraless meta! The fact that they're having fun is a good thing, and it is very much a failure of the community to identify even a single thing they actually want to ban.

Don't make arguments for others please.

People have identified bax as a target, some have expressed regret on not voting ban for Kingambit, and youll find some want screens targeted.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Bro you are literally arguing to overrule a majority vote. That is bad faith because you assume that everybody who voted made a mistake, but in reality they just voted for the metagame they enjoyed.

"ban gambit" was the majority vote, and several people who voted dnb have gone on record saying they did make a mistake, so yes, it would have been perfectly reasonable to put it to a council vote a short while after the suspect if enough dnb voters publicly recanted their votes. if the dlc release date hadn't been announced that soon, it's likely they would have kicked it out within two weeks or so

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Okay, just so we're all on the same page, can someone recap the serious candidates for being banished to Ubers, as it currently stands?

 

[Bugboy]

"ban gambit" was the majority vote, and several people who voted dnb have gone on record saying they did make a mistake, so yes, it would have been perfectly reasonable to put it to a council vote a short while after the suspect if enough dnb voters publicly recanted their votes. if the dlc release date hadn't been announced that soon, it's likely they would have kicked it out within two weeks or so

im not sure they’re implying that gambit is the problem with the metagame right now. Don’t think anyone is implying banning gambit fixes this meta.

i’m pretty sure the votes they are unhappy with are the pro-Tera votes, but what do I know.

 

[taziathegreat]

Okay, just so we're all on the same page, can someone recap the serious candidates for being banished to Ubers, as it currently stands?

Bax manaphy
Fire mask ogerpon A-ninetales king gambit light clay
Iron valiant

That’s pretty much the only things I see having a chance of getting banned before dlc 2

 

[Bakugames]

Okay, just so we're all on the same page, can someone recap the serious candidates for being banished to Ubers, as it currently stands?

Anyone from the bax/atales/veil/light clay clique. Mixed opinions on whos worse!

Kingambit. kinda being ignored because new toys fun wahoo but once things die down people will probably go "um where kingambit test" again

Manaphy depending on what happens to screens

People are Scared of ogerpon but its basically theorymonning again. theres a bigger chance of it being broken than not but we do have 0 usage with it fixed on ladder so any asks to ban ogerpon rn are a bit goofy

thats it I believe? Maybe bloodmoon ursa. anyone wants that banned

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Okay, just so we're all on the same page, can someone recap the serious candidates for being banished to Ubers, as it currently stands?

• baxcalibur, likely within a matter of days
• alolan ninetales and/or light clay
• manaphy, especially if atales isn't banned first
• kingambit still. don't be fooled just because everyone is talking about bax now, gambit is still broken
• probably at least one of the ogerpons, most likely the fire one. y'know, heatfromfire or whatever it's called
• maybe ursaluna bloodmoon or iron valiant, but these are probably not immediate candidates

 

[Harmless]

The fact that they didn't add any really reliable hazard removes (you will find me dead in a ditch before I call geezing a reliable hazard remover, like it seems ok but not easy to slot) makes me sob just a little bit. Born to defog with real pokemon forced to use corviknight/mandibuzz.

Some other scattered thoughts to avoid one liner

- Council was right to keep volc banned, new metas are always chaotic and we don't need to throw the match up moth into the pot also lose2ru? is so real for that

- I definitely think baxcalibur is the problem rather than a-tales and/or light clay. I thought it was problematic before dlc but now it's way more obvious. Outside of manaphy who I can't comment on as I haven't used it and barely seen it, there aren't really any other abusers that I can think of that really make aveil more "broken" than it ever was before. Unless you wanna be that guy and tera ice your sweeper for the defense boost for some reason

- Loyal three are all MID (kneejerk reaction, but I haven't really been that impressed with them so far). To be fair I haven't seen them too much and Munkidori certainly seems promising. Okidogi looks pretty whatever and Fezandipiti just seems gimmicky. Toxic chain is funny af but I don't think it's gonna carry the non Munkidori ones.

- Ttar is still dead but I think we all knew that

- Empoleon actually seems promising, as does alomomola. I've had success running mola on non stall so far.

- Kommo-o is funny as fuck. Please use the throat spray/clangerous soul set if you haven't already it's the most epic shit ever.

- Ogerpon is crazy but I don't think I would throw the ban hammer on it just yet. Fire gets worn down by rocks (breaks sturdy on rock as well) and 110 base speed is excellent but it's pretty frail and can be outsped by boost energy/scarf mons since it can't use scarf unless grass. Ofc trailblaze is an option but idk how good that is. Also I don't think it has any priority so sadly fraud pokemon, washed by kingambit, get ready to learn NU buddy.

Anyways since it's on topic my (personal) radar goes like this
Baxcalibur (suspect, I'd vote ban)
Manaphy (undecided)
A-tales/Light Clay (both fine imo)
Ogerpon might need a suspect but I'm chill with it rn
Kingambit (if we lived in a just world he would be dead)