GUYS FURRET GOT TIDY UP WE ARE ALL DOOMED
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Yes
Every pokemon that isn't a setup sweeper would love the consistent damage that salt cure offers
And before you ask, there were 100 games where someone used Sunkurn last month, you’re welcome
i mean, wallbreakers would scoff at 25% per turn too, but aside from setup sweepers and breakers, yeah, you could slot salt cure onto pretty much anything and prosper
What are your guy's thoughts on ninetales? seems extremely centrilizing to me and stopping veil isn't very feasible outside of torkoal. Not asking for suspects or anything. Just want a closer look at the mon
i've resorted to stacking multiple forms of anti-veil tech per team, including shit like prankster taunt grafaiai and paldean tauros (the fire form, obviously). i'd say something like "it really hurts me against non-veil teams" but there are no non-veil teams
Opinion on post DLC 
?
Worse, better or the same now that he has flipturn but with a landscape even more hostile towards him?
Choice Scarf + FlipTurn might be an even better lead option than focus sash as it can both outspeed and lay two layers of spikes against every fellow lead that isn’t Tusk, Ting Lu, Meow or Samurott, mons that you can switch into a favorable match-up.
And in the event that the opponent was trying to set up veil or his wincon, yoy can either knock off the item or flip turn to ruin his strat.
?Worse, better or the same now that he has flipturn but with a landscape even more hostile towards him?
Choice Scarf + FlipTurn might be an even better lead option than focus sash as it can both outspeed and lay two layers of spikes against every fellow lead that isn’t Tusk, Ting Lu, Meow or Samurott, mons that you can switch into a favorable match-up.
And in the event that the opponent was trying to set up veil or his wincon, yoy can either knock off the item or flip turn to ruin his strat.
I don't think there's going to be a Snow abuser quite like Bax if it ever gets banned, I really believe the problematic part of the puzzle is not A9T. After Bax gets inevitably banned, A9T can enable some HO with screens but it won't be at the level we're seeing rn. Scizor stonks might rise too and thats always good news.
Alolan Ninetails absolutely is the broken factor here rather than Bax. 1 turn dual screens is HUGE. When facing setters like Pult or Grimmsnarl, appropriate play can reduce them to just going for 1 screen or you can set up in front of them. Curse Pult can deter set up but Pult will be sacrificing itself in the process. But being a fast 1 turn dual screens setter with Encore, Alolan Tales negates that issue and Veil support pushes a lot of sweepers over the edge including the likes of Manaphy and Kingambit. Fast, consistent Veil setting goes beyond just sweepers. It allows any random strong attacker to win exchanges it shouldn't (like offensive Tusk vs Valiant). And the broken part is, Alolan Tales can do that throughout the match.
Bax alone is as easy to manage as before since without the defense boost from veil and snow, all of it's previous counters and checks still beat it. Revenge killers like Iron Val can still revenge it. And it dies easier to Kingambit's sucker punch. No boots is also a big deal.
In the games I played using and facing Veil offenses, Bax was usually sacrificed early due to good teams over prepping for it with random tera fairies. But it's the veil support that made these teams unbearable to face and gave me wins in games I shouldn't have. Alolan Tales is so easy to just preserve and bring again and again to set veil then switch out, something that Pult and Grimm has a hard time doing.
So yeah, Veil offense with Bax is crazy right now. But looking at Bax without first addressing Alolan Tales would be a mistake.
Bax alone is as easy to manage as before since without the defense boost from veil and snow, all of it's previous counters and checks still beat it. Revenge killers like Iron Val can still revenge it. And it dies easier to Kingambit's sucker punch. No boots is also a big deal.
In the games I played using and facing Veil offenses, Bax was usually sacrificed early due to good teams over prepping for it with random tera fairies. But it's the veil support that made these teams unbearable to face and gave me wins in games I shouldn't have. Alolan Tales is so easy to just preserve and bring again and again to set veil then switch out, something that Pult and Grimm has a hard time doing.
So yeah, Veil offense with Bax is crazy right now. But looking at Bax without first addressing Alolan Tales would be a mistake.
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I’m really finding the best way to defeat Bax is Brick Break, against him it’s a 150 power move that removes the Veil before damage
The issue with this is saying that Bax is "easily manageable." It was borderline before the DLC gave it at worst a side grade that helps it vs certain threats with scale shot, and gave it a consistent snow + veil setter. Alolatales is definitely what's pushing it over the edge to this degree, but it isn't like it was an unmon before.
On top of this, you have to consider what else veil breaks. If it only breaks Bax, then it's clear that Bax is the problem here, even if it's Alolatales enabling it. Alolatales, like Cyclizar before it, needs to be something that's proven to break multiple threats. If it's determined that threats like Manaphy and what have you are broken as well, then I think looking into Alolatales would be warranted. But we should start with the mons broken by it first, not preemptively ban an enabler that hasn't been proven to break other mons.
Hi! I'm here to raise more anarchy and ask:
1. How many "broken" pokemon are deemed such due to items? How many Garmanitans, Kyurems, Urshifus, and other mons die because fat isn't thicc enough to tank banded blows anymore?
Given that the game has pivoted to a far more fishy aggro style, is it time to finally talk about the years of mons banned due to choice band/specs? (not the sole reason most of that ish got the boot, but the choice sets are certainly PART of the discussion).
There are probably more new mons that are going to get banned due to band and specs. Just saying.
2. How is there still not an item clause? I honestly think that there are enough playable items to implement a clause that would improve the game. It would've ended the miserable HDB debate of last gen, and I honestly think with Leftovers, Sludge, rocky helmet, HDB, Booster Energy, Scarf, Choice items, Assault Vest, Covert Cloak, Light Clay, Life Orb, Air Balloon, Weather rocks, and whatever other more niche items i'm forgetting, you can actually have some real decisions in teambuilding. Who gets my Life Orb? Do I just run Blackglasses on Kingambit since I'm going to spam Kowtow anyway?
I really think there are enough items that it would encourage players to think about their teams and balance rather than Mike's Red Hot Leftovers "I just slap that **** on everything!"
I don't think it would address any issues or whatever, but... just want to bring this up, since there are already big changes coming, what's a few more ideas for the furnace?
1. How many "broken" pokemon are deemed such due to items? How many Garmanitans, Kyurems, Urshifus, and other mons die because fat isn't thicc enough to tank banded blows anymore?
Given that the game has pivoted to a far more fishy aggro style, is it time to finally talk about the years of mons banned due to choice band/specs? (not the sole reason most of that ish got the boot, but the choice sets are certainly PART of the discussion).
There are probably more new mons that are going to get banned due to band and specs. Just saying.
2. How is there still not an item clause? I honestly think that there are enough playable items to implement a clause that would improve the game. It would've ended the miserable HDB debate of last gen, and I honestly think with Leftovers, Sludge, rocky helmet, HDB, Booster Energy, Scarf, Choice items, Assault Vest, Covert Cloak, Light Clay, Life Orb, Air Balloon, Weather rocks, and whatever other more niche items i'm forgetting, you can actually have some real decisions in teambuilding. Who gets my Life Orb? Do I just run Blackglasses on Kingambit since I'm going to spam Kowtow anyway?
I really think there are enough items that it would encourage players to think about their teams and balance rather than Mike's Red Hot Leftovers "I just slap that **** on everything!"
I don't think it would address any issues or whatever, but... just want to bring this up, since there are already big changes coming, what's a few more ideas for the furnace?
I guess easily manageable wasn't the right choice of words, but more in the lines of, as easy to manage as before. Addition of Scale Shot is a big plus but not like it changed anything significantly about your dedicated Bax counterplay.
But my main point was the fact that Alolan Tales breaks multiple attackers, not just Bax. So yeah, I agree with you here. Im my opinion, it is on par with Shed Tail. Bax sticks out because it is the biggest threat with ATales veil support, but if ATales is broken anyway as it breaks multiple other threats, isn't it more logical to look at ATales first?
And if you disagree with the claim that Veils breaks other threats too, that's a separate discussion.
for your first point, band and specs aren't actual issues. the things that have historically been broken "because of" them could always viably run other items—garm, kyurem, chien-pao and chi-yu could all viably run boots, dracovish ran scarf sometimes instead, urshifu could run swords dance with stuff like life orb (or, in this gen, punching glove), and so on. choice items have never been the deciding factor in a ban. they're common among banned mons because they're common in general among wallbreakers, which tend to be more readily visible in their brokenness than other archetypes.
the second topic is much more interesting. i think an item clause would be neat and it would prevent stuff like "lol 6 boots", "haha what if they all had quick claw", and "i dunno what to put on this, so it's leftovers time!", but the drawback is that a lot of playstyles almost mandate the use of more than one of the same item to succeed. balance and stall in particular would be irreparably hurt by the inability to run more than one leftovers or more than one pair of boots, and they're suffering enough right now as it is. it would also impact a lot of offensive and defensive cores. if you want to run 6 different items, though, no one's stopping you
Big Stall™ would never allow such thing.
I agree an Item Clause would probably be a positive thing in the sense that it encourages more creative sets. However, it’s not like anything is broken and we need an item clause to fix it. So it seems like a matter of personal preference to me, and since OU has never had an item clause (as far as I’m aware) my guess is most people prefer it the way it’s always been.
Oh shit item clause? I better abuse HO 6 focus bands while I still can
I said what I said. I think Encore holds up even against stuff like Ceaseless Edge and Salt Cure (two meta-warping, gamechanging moves in their own right) and is better than Dire Claw (something that some relevant mons don't have to fully deal with). Last Respects, Rage Fist, and Last Respects haven't really been a thing in OU for a long time now, but I can't deny they're all insanely good moves in their own right.
Encore's problem was always distribution-related more than anything else; most mons that get or previously got Encore tend to be some flavor of low-tier trash. But fast, threatening mons like Iron Valiant, A-Tales and Ogerpon can (and in the former's case, very frequently do) make use of that insane move, and even some weaker mons like Tinkaton are usable in this metagame because of an excellent move like Encore; we historically haven't had a lot in the way of OU-viable Encore users until this gen but in a setup and hazard-centric meta like this one the move easily deserves a mention as one of the best moves in OU right now.
I wouldn't mind Item Clause, but I don't think it needs to happen since there is nothing too broken being enabled by running the same item. Yeah, 6 Boots Pokemon are annoying, but that is going to get significantly weaker in the new metagame due Knock Off increased distribution making Items as a whole significantly weaker. I think running different items as a personal challenge suffices for now. The only team I made, for example, runs a different item on every Pokemon accidentally lmao.
Speaking of Knock Off, one thing I appreciate about its increased distribution is that it gives most Dark-types a way to distinguish themselves from Kingambit. I think in the last meta, the only Dark-Types that had a notable niche over Gambit were the ones with Knock Off or another OP move like Ceaseless Edge (think Meowscarada and Samurott-H). However, with the wider distribution, I feel that more Dark-types will have at least some fringe use in the new meta like Tyranitar, Roaring Moon, Zarude, and Weavile. This is pretty good imo, as Dark-types also did well as Kingambit "checks" in the sense that they resist Gambit's Sucker Punch. However, Kingambit previously outclassed a majority of the Dark-Types, leaving it as the best check to itself. Now, we have a few more options for this role to revenge kill Kingambit which also have more concrete advantages over Kingambit now.
I don't think the meta's overly harsh to hsam rn, but as it stabilizes more it will be even less so. Flip + knock + cedge is insanely good, even with its kinda middling stats, and we're still kinda lacking in hazard control. Having more Knockers makes running 4-6 boots teams less viable too. Now that it has the ablity to pivot out its even better.Opinion on post DLC
Worse, better or the same now that he has flipturn but with a landscape even more hostile towards him?
Choice Scarf + FlipTurn might be an even better lead option than focus sash as it can both outspeed and lay two layers of spikes against every fellow lead that isn’t Tusk, Ting Lu, Meow or Samurott, mons that you can switch into a favorable match-up.
And in the event that the opponent was trying to set up veil or his wincon, yoy can either knock off the item or flip turn to ruin his strat.
1. Choiced items usually aren't that much of a factor in banning mons, looking at the current ban list the only mon pushed over the edge by choiced items was Pao and even then that's debatable.
2. Item clause would not seem that bad for offense teams who can viably run 2-3 items for most mons, but it would massively hurt balance and completely cripple stall. Stall basically mandates 6 boots, and balance loves lefties, removing the ability for them to run multiple of those items would severly hurt both playstyles, or even kill it in stall's case. While people may not like them, you cannot gut a playstyle like that, especially not two.
I think it's too early to tell if it's centralizing - spammed on the ladder after a new release does not necessarily equate to centralizing. It's pretty fast but not amazingly, can get up veil relatively easily, but has problems with Stealth Rock (which it shares with Bax) the now-common Knock and a couple pretty notable weaknesses to steel and fire. We'll see if it continues but people are already adapting to Veil spam and it's increasingly becoming a matchup fish archetype rather than the unstoppable one we thought it was. Stacking weaknesses with its buddy Bax doesn't help either- Ghold Gambit and Scizor are kind of eating these teams right now and it just takes one misplay for things to go south for them
I wouldn't find out, STAB 144 BP Wood Hammer should round out any issues.
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