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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
- Start date
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Oh yeah, Serperior....
Heatran and Chansey look like our only options. But with enough boost, it can even take out Chansey.
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 294-347 (45.7 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Well...it'll take a little bit to get that to +6, though, so you probably have retaliated with Toxic or Seismic Toss at that point.
Heatran and Chansey look like our only options. But with enough boost, it can even take out Chansey.
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 294-347 (45.7 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Well...it'll take a little bit to get that to +6, though, so you probably have retaliated with Toxic or Seismic Toss at that point.
Mega Venusaur and SpDef Unaware Clefable can take it. SpDef Zapdos could work, and maybe Mega Altaria. Interestingly some of these are also some of stall's best/only answers to Rain Dance booster Manaphy, so it's not totally niche.
There is starting to be way too many wallbreakers though. It might reach the point where good players have teams that pretty much can beat full stall 100% of the time. I can name about 10-15 good Pokemon stall really struggles with now, even often forgotten things like LO Garchomp are extremely difficult when you think about it.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 148-175 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hm, I guess I overestimated the boost it gets.
But did you seriously just say "defensive Infernape"?
its actually a thing.
I just checked the Smogon Analysis.
Oh my. Defensive Infernape is actually viable. It's as if everything I've ever known is a lie.
I need to go contemplate life for a while.
Stallbreaker infernape is actually decently good because it has a very fast wisp and the ability to heal with slack off, along with being a 100% counter to mega scizor and bisharp, 2 things that are pretty threatening to stall teams. It's sort of like that acro stallbreaker talonflame set, except it doesn't take 50% switching into stealth rocks.
I'd say stall has to prepare much more against Keldeo and, especially Manaphy, with Greninja banned these two will see a rise in usage, Keldeo if choiced can be easily played around, but if not it might be troublesome, Manaphy is a real problem, I can see Unaware cm Fable making a comeback on stall teams in order to have a more solid answer against Manaphy, other stuff like Clear Smog Amoonguss might also win in the long run against it.
I agree, Manaphy is rising in use specifically to take out bulky waters and it just so happens that CM/TG + Rain Dance works really well versus stall, as well. I think the newly released Contrary Serperior is something to consider when team building, as well. Mega Venusaur might become a lot more useful again.
Greninja was never too troublesome, but his departure does allow some extra flexibility. Unaware clefable can sadly be destroyed by manaphy if it gets burned on the switch in under rain.
And as such I would consider adding Heal Bell/Restalk in the VR Thread as the fourth slot, or also adding another cleric like say Chansey.
Still, Manaphy wins one on one against Clefable only if it lacks Calm Mind, if Clefable has Calm Mind (and to an extent Heal Bell) it will win the 1v1 forcing the switch out, Rain Dance's pp are also low
0 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 94-112 (23.8 - 28.4%).
Ofc, you may either get burned by a 30% scald, or entering while the opponent may set up rain, but coming in against a scald powered rain only means you were one turn later to adress the threat of Manaphy, and yes, at the moment it might very well be Stall's nemesis.
If it is the Rain Dance Tail Glow set:
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 70-84 (19.4 - 23.3%)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%)
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 280-330 (76.9 - 90.6%)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 192-228 (52.6 - 62.4%)
if you run SpDef Venusaur
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 210-248 (57.6 - 68.1%)
2hkoing without Hydration Rest support.
assuming it lacks psychic zzz not sure if it still commonly runs that.
If it is the Calm Mind Rain Dance set:
I mean, you could always bring back the Water Absorb Jellicent, seeing as the Rain Dance CM set doesn't have a moveslot for energy ball. Its not too bad, except for the Knock Off weakness, and it has access to Taunt. Vaporeon is another option, but it lacks taunt (though it can still pp stall Manaphy's scald and isn't weak to the meta's centralization of Knock Off, with Wish for Team Support).
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Water Absorbers like Vaporeon are pretty nice against CM Manaphy, but against the 50 other pokemon in the metagame they are pretty much outclassed by Alomomola. Manaphy is a big threat but sacrificing Alomomola, which helps stall a lot more, is a no go for me, even if it leaves me weaker against CM Manaphy / CroBro
on unaware cm clef, are we talking about wish protect or moonlight?
Well I'm not a big fan of Mega Venusaur on Stall Team since it doesn't allow me to use Mega Sableye (lol) or Mega Zard x but majority of Manaphy are Mono attacker (cromana?) psychic is a bit higher than ice beam, but at the moment it seems people prefer either having a recovery option or being able to beat Mega Slowbro.
I'd say both, there is also the Restalk version you can find on the Victory Road Creative Movesets page:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tion-no-shitty-gimmicks.3521766/#post-5851039
I think wishtect is a bit better for Unaware Clef designed for countering Manaphy as moonlight PP can get pretty burned out if Manaphy always has rain out (although you can prolly win with maybe 4 or 3 moonlights left? I didnt calculate manaphy's damage output combined with clefable's spdef gains yet). Burn can still really hurt in damage though and you lose out on cleric duty but you can't really have everything I guess. Rest Talk seems like an awesome option against Manaphy though albeit a bit niche.
how do you guys deal with taunt heatran, its been giving me a ton of problems lately. i could switch in mega sable, but it really hates burns and i can't heal bell when heatran keeps taunting my chansey
Specially defensive Gliscor, as long as Toxic Orb has activated, does pretty well. Bulky waters do a decent job at chipping away at Heatran's health, so Slowbro and Suicune and Tentacruel do great at that for example.
Most important if you can't hit it with a super effective attack is get rid of Heatran's lefties as soon as possible. Heatran becomes infinitely easier to deal with on an extended basis without its stupid recovery, so Knock Off or Goth Tricking is helpful here.
my team atm is; chansey/skarmory/unaware clef/cm sable/quagsire/amoonguss. its really weak to certain things ie; knock off landorus, diggersby and gengar. i should probably get a gliscor on it somewhere, but not quite sure who to replace. i know its not a great team so i'd appreciate some suggestions to help make it better
Specially defensive gliscor isn't the best answer in general (or at least on paper), as more offensive variants of Heatran are becoming more common. If they predict correctly, gliscor is clean 2HKOed by Fire Blast; I will agree that heatran is a nuisance for stall.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Depending on the set (Taunt+Status+2 Atks with Leftovers or Taunt+3 Atks with Air Balloon) Heatran loses to Slowbro, Alomomola, Chansey, Rotom-W, SpD Hippowdon, Regenerator Spam and Suicune. It definitely isn't hard to defeat with an offensive move but it is annoying as it takes down your pokemon with status and prevents them from healing due to Taunt.
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