sparkling aria is just way too gimmicky to be used. wouldn't give up coverage moves or stronger water attacks for it
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Pokémon Primarina
- Thread starter oversway
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I don't see why Liquid Voice should ever be considered. Sparkling Aria is basically a Liquid Voice Hyper Voice that heals burns, which really isn't that huge of a downside. In fact, I don't see why people are calling Sparkling Aria gimmicky, as it's essentially a better Surf most of the time.
Is there any reason at all to use Ice Beam over HP Fire?
Lati and other dragons obviously are killed by Moonblast, and most of the Grass types used in OU are targeted just as hard by Psychic or HP Fire (Venusaur, Amoonguss, Ferrothorn). Meanwhile 0/0 Tapu Bulu (I think that's what Bulu is running?) has a 50% chance to die to Moonblast, guaranteed after rocks, and Bulu wins 1v1 either way because it outspeeds. Kartana dies to any move. Moonblast 2HKOes 252/216 AV Tangrowth without SR (idk what spread that runs but that's the most SpDef I could feasibly see it running).
As for Flying types, the only benefit I can see from Ice Beam is doing around 6% more damage to AV Torn (Ice Beam has a minuscule chance to OHKO after rocks). AV Torn can't even do anything back. Zapdos has a 33% chance to die from Ice Beam from full, but otherwise can Roost stall easily, and Hydro kills easily after rocks anyway.
Basically I feel like killing Ferrothorn on the spot with HP Fire outweighs any small benefits that Ice Beam brings (hitting AV Tang and Torn slightly harder and having a small chance to OHKO Zapdos from full.) I'm only talking about Specs in this post btw as that's the only post I could see being viable and not outclassed.
Lati and other dragons obviously are killed by Moonblast, and most of the Grass types used in OU are targeted just as hard by Psychic or HP Fire (Venusaur, Amoonguss, Ferrothorn). Meanwhile 0/0 Tapu Bulu (I think that's what Bulu is running?) has a 50% chance to die to Moonblast, guaranteed after rocks, and Bulu wins 1v1 either way because it outspeeds. Kartana dies to any move. Moonblast 2HKOes 252/216 AV Tangrowth without SR (idk what spread that runs but that's the most SpDef I could feasibly see it running).
As for Flying types, the only benefit I can see from Ice Beam is doing around 6% more damage to AV Torn (Ice Beam has a minuscule chance to OHKO after rocks). AV Torn can't even do anything back. Zapdos has a 33% chance to die from Ice Beam from full, but otherwise can Roost stall easily, and Hydro kills easily after rocks anyway.
Basically I feel like killing Ferrothorn on the spot with HP Fire outweighs any small benefits that Ice Beam brings (hitting AV Tang and Torn slightly harder and having a small chance to OHKO Zapdos from full.) I'm only talking about Specs in this post btw as that's the only post I could see being viable and not outclassed.
you cant use liquid voice, its not available yet. that being said, surf does the same thing as liquid hyper voice, so just run that or scald. or hydro if you want
You probably wanna be running Modest...even with a speed boosting nature youre not getting much out of 60 speed unless youre trying to run scarf, but even then you dont get THAT high.
OU yes it'd be just for breaking Subs. Sparkling Aria is massive shit.
I mean, no matter how much you value breaking a possible Sub, you have to admit that it's better than HEALING YOUR FOE'S BURN unless you WoW'd a Guts mon or something?
However, Liquid Voice Hyper Voice would be amazing in Doubles. Surf/Aria hit your ally and do not pierce Subs. Its also the only Sound move that actually tickles Sub Aegislash; -ate Hyper Voices are all resisted, as is Bug Buzz (even from Yanmega/Venomoth...).
BUT its banned for now so eh. :P
Primarina is one of the neatest pokemon this gen imo. Physical bulk isn't too great but its Special attack is extremely good for a Water type, and 60 Speed isn't completely unusable.
I mean, we are talking singles sets here...in which case Sparkling Aria is Liquid Voice Hyper Voice that heals burns. My point is that it's easy to avoid that downside, and it'd rarely come up anyway. In fact, it's easier to bait out your opponent's burned Ferrothorn if they know you're carrying Aria (there's not many burned threats that'd like to switch into a STAB Aria, especially Specs-boosted). If you wanna ignore Subs, Aria is the way to go, especially given it's the only choice at the moment.
Also, I can testify for the unfortunate lack of physical bulk to capitalize on those nice Fighting and Dark resists. Even though in-game is vastly different, resisted physical hits from a certain Elite Four member were more threatening to my Primarina in-game than it seemed like they should have been...
Another thing to consider is that the burn heal isn't as big a deal if your team doesn't have Scald or Wisp in the first place. Also, given Primarina's low speed, Sparkling Aria would help get past Substitute stalling, especially on non-Specs sets, if you hide Aria and let the Subber whittle itself down while blocking Moonblasts.
SuMo's E4 should give you a good idea of how bad Prima's physical bulk is, actually. Just checked the datamine and I noticed all of their pokes have neutral natures with 252 EVs on their respective offensive stats.
Speaking of bulk:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 343-405 (113.9 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 298-352 (99 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 273-321 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 352-415 (116.9 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Without any bulk spent on its defense it can be cannon fodder against pretty much anything with huge offenses.
What calc are you using?
Cause I got this:
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 204-242 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The tyranitar and azumaril calcs match. Make sure everything is set to level 100.
http://jake-white.github.io/VGC-Damage-Calculator/
Also primarinas should be taking 252 HP.
I'm using a 252 SpA/Spd spread mostly to outspeed Tyranitar. Just realised it's kinda useless considering with 168 EVs it already outspeeds it. That way I can spend the rest on bulk.
Also, I checked your calcs and they seem to match only when it's doubles.
Ah my bad, I didn't think this calc was VGC exclusive and actually factored the doubles reduction.
EDIT: nvm I'm just retarded its flagged as doubles.
Having playtested on battle spot, Sparkling aria actually proved very useful for the odd sub stalling mon (specifically, aegislash and celesteela).
Specs does indeed seem ideal for this mon. Tank a hit if needed and hit back real hard.
Would recommend a couple of evs just to speed creep aegislash or skarmory though this thing seems more suited to UU due to tapu-koko running around.
Specs does indeed seem ideal for this mon. Tank a hit if needed and hit back real hard.
Would recommend a couple of evs just to speed creep aegislash or skarmory though this thing seems more suited to UU due to tapu-koko running around.
Sparkling Area is useless yeah, Liquid voice is great in doubles, might even not be that bad in singles either but ehhh....might be better if we get like boomburst as a tutor later lol
No, it's not settled, as evidenced by the post literally right before yours.
Sparkling Aria's technically a sound move, so it's there if you want Prima to ignore substitutes. Liquid Voice's usefulness mostly lies in doubles, where you can abuse a pseudo-surf that doesn't hit partners and heal burns.
Sparkling Aria isn't useless in Singles at all. It's a Surf that bypasses Substitute's and will only make you wish you had Surf if your opponent either
A. Has Soundproof which would apply to Liquid Voice Hyper Voice too if Liquid Voice worked like the -ate/Galvanize abilities and isn't available to anything Primarina should be particularly worried for.
B. Is a burned Pokemon that resists both your STABs like Toxapex or Ferrothorn. Why an opponent would chance switching a burned Pokemon that's supsceptible to Primarina's moves over switching in a special wall and clicking Aromatherapy while Primarina's forced out is beyond me. And even if your cleric has been K'Od leaving you no other option, you'll probably take too much damage from the Sparkling Aria to justify the burn heal anyway or run the risk of getting bopped by a different attack. Overall this scenario is stupidly unlikely.
Moving on to Primarina as a whole, I can't help but feel that when it comes to singles, it got shafted the most of the 3 starters. It's just as slow as them but has a HA that's lame in singles (Let's be real people. Torrent ain't best ability in the world but it'll do you more good in more games than having a sound based Surf that doesn't heal burns while still causing damage. Especially since Primarina is so slow and has a bad Def stat.) and a support movepool with almost nothing she can actually exploit without getting outclassed. No Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, speed boosting moves, recovery, etc. in tandem with her low speed and bad defense means she'll struggle to justify herself over other offensive Pokemon in OU, even with that golden typing. Not to mention Tapu Fini will be a constant source of competition. If Liquid Voice just worked like the -ate abilities and if it got more useful support moves, it'd have much more going for it. Will probably be UU at best unless the tutors and events are kind.
A. Has Soundproof which would apply to Liquid Voice Hyper Voice too if Liquid Voice worked like the -ate/Galvanize abilities and isn't available to anything Primarina should be particularly worried for.
B. Is a burned Pokemon that resists both your STABs like Toxapex or Ferrothorn. Why an opponent would chance switching a burned Pokemon that's supsceptible to Primarina's moves over switching in a special wall and clicking Aromatherapy while Primarina's forced out is beyond me. And even if your cleric has been K'Od leaving you no other option, you'll probably take too much damage from the Sparkling Aria to justify the burn heal anyway or run the risk of getting bopped by a different attack. Overall this scenario is stupidly unlikely.
Moving on to Primarina as a whole, I can't help but feel that when it comes to singles, it got shafted the most of the 3 starters. It's just as slow as them but has a HA that's lame in singles (Let's be real people. Torrent ain't best ability in the world but it'll do you more good in more games than having a sound based Surf that doesn't heal burns while still causing damage. Especially since Primarina is so slow and has a bad Def stat.) and a support movepool with almost nothing she can actually exploit without getting outclassed. No Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, speed boosting moves, recovery, etc. in tandem with her low speed and bad defense means she'll struggle to justify herself over other offensive Pokemon in OU, even with that golden typing. Not to mention Tapu Fini will be a constant source of competition. If Liquid Voice just worked like the -ate abilities and if it got more useful support moves, it'd have much more going for it. Will probably be UU at best unless the tutors and events are kind.
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I really wish Liquid Voice was an -ate effect ability.
Unfortunately, yes it has. I remember reading it on the battle mechanics research thread.
Can confirm Primarina is currently murdering the UU Beta by doing 55% to Blissey with Torrent and 2HKOing so many threats with resisted STABs, as well as dumb shit like NastyPass (Toge or Celebi) into Scarf. Also has that godly typing, have fun with it in OU, it's only getting better as we ban more things.
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Substitute
This set is quite effective at surprising certain mons. It lures in Toxapex, Mantine, and a whole host of other bulky Water types who both rely on Toxic to beat Primarina, and with Encore it can actually force them out or force them to spam their recovery move, giving you a chance to Scald burn them if they aren't immune to Water. Substitute is neat too because it eases prediction on switches, and it lets you get into Torrent range easier which is useful sometimes. And if you argue that this is outclassed by Taunt Tapu Fini, I say that Tapu Fini has a much poorer offensive presence and an inability to burn most things with Scald, letting Primarina do much more against offensive teams in general. They are obviously very similar, and Primarina is much less useful defensively, but it's unfair to say that Primarina is strictly better for offense while Tapu Fini is better for defense. Scald is still really amazing and being able to burn things like Ferrothorn is excellent, not to mention the fact that you can grab free turns thanks to Sub + Encore's surprise factor, since people will actually try to use status moves on Primarina. If this thing ends up UU (not likely???) this set might be more popular as it doesn't have the competition.
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Substitute
This set is quite effective at surprising certain mons. It lures in Toxapex, Mantine, and a whole host of other bulky Water types who both rely on Toxic to beat Primarina, and with Encore it can actually force them out or force them to spam their recovery move, giving you a chance to Scald burn them if they aren't immune to Water. Substitute is neat too because it eases prediction on switches, and it lets you get into Torrent range easier which is useful sometimes. And if you argue that this is outclassed by Taunt Tapu Fini, I say that Tapu Fini has a much poorer offensive presence and an inability to burn most things with Scald, letting Primarina do much more against offensive teams in general. They are obviously very similar, and Primarina is much less useful defensively, but it's unfair to say that Primarina is strictly better for offense while Tapu Fini is better for defense. Scald is still really amazing and being able to burn things like Ferrothorn is excellent, not to mention the fact that you can grab free turns thanks to Sub + Encore's surprise factor, since people will actually try to use status moves on Primarina. If this thing ends up UU (not likely???) this set might be more popular as it doesn't have the competition.
You kinda elaborated on the point I already made a few posts up, but thanks for hammering it home. Yeah, Liquid Voice is essentially useless in singles (and just barely viable in doubles) unless Primarina somehow gets Boomburst. Sparkling Aria should be used if you don't want Hydro Pump or Scald. It's equal to or better than Surf about 99% of the time.
I will disagree on Tapu Fini giving it competition though. Sure, they share a typing, but that's where the similarities end. They have two entirely different roles. Even M-Venusaur and Amoonguss were both OU at the end of ORAS OU, and they're much more similar than Tapu Fini and Primarina.
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