Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]

[Clueless Crusader]

I'm gonna just put some arguments out there and see if I develop an opinion on how to vote somewhere along the way. Who knows, maybe someone else will too.

I don't think SD Gliscor adds much of a problem factor here. The dominant set is bulky spiker, most of the issues raised with it relate to spikes as well as its ability to force progress over time, and its longevity is really what sets it apart. SD scor is a really good stallbreaker, but I don't know that I'd count it in the top-5 problems stall has this gen. So these points will focus on bulky spiky versions.

First off, Gliscor without Gholdengo is a menace in its own right. Hazards can be removed against Gliscor (Corv helps a lot), but Gliscor's longevity means that it can re-set them later. Most hazard removers not named Corviknight don't like switching into scor and eating a knock or toxic. The best hazard remover in the tier is Tusk, which even with Ice Spinner isn't a great solution because Gliscor can usually outlast it, and it gets a LOT of opportunities to come in and start spiking.

The best argument against a ban IMO is that it won't fix the unstoppable hazard stack problem, as the spiker role could be filled by other pokemon (why are there so many spikers), and we'd lose Gliscor's positive influence on the meta for no benefit. As one of the tier's premier defensive pokemon, scor has helped push back against HO and made more defensive structures viable. It's sort of a cost-benefit analysis, where the cost is something and the benefit is nothing.

Gliscor being used as a counter to itself doesn't necessarily mean it's broken. Lando-T was one of the most common Lando-T switchins for most of its reign, and Ferrothorn was used to counter itself on some rain teams back in Gen 5. There are other options for dealing with Gliscor, although they have to be used really carefully, and actually knocking out a Gliscor is a long and arduous process. Still, it seems to me pretty similar to Pex from past gens, it can be dealt with, but if you play stupidly with your checks and counters it will rapidly become unbeatable. That said, Gliscor vs. Gliscor is definitely a more painful process than Lando vs. Lando. On the other hand, I haven't seen Tera Ice Tera Blast to try and win the 1v1 (it is a terrible idea)

Both of the arguments against a ban have solid counter arguments, the tier has plenty of other ground types, including a ground-flying type that has been an exceptional bulky mon in prior gens, and while the other spikers are real and Dengo is the only really unique part of gen 9's oppressive hazard stack, none of them have Gliscor's longevity and at least some of them are easier for Tusk to deal with.

Speaking of Tusk, banning Gliscor might have an indirect effect of nerfing hazard stack by having more teams use Tusk as their ground type. Something to consider.

Based on how the survey went, I'd consider it unlikely for Gholdengo to get banned if Gliscor isn't. It would be contingent on people who want to ban scor instead of dengo voting for a dengo ban as a compromise, and I don't know if there'll be enough support for that. This doesn't necessarily make dengo irrelevant, the cost-benefit argument still applies, but it should be considered.

Gholdengo might also be more likely to be banned if Gliscor is, since continued hazard issues would more definitively prove that Gholdengo's the issue. Question for the Council, in the event of Gliscor being banned and Gholdengo remaining a problem and later being banned, what would be the odds of Gliscor returning to the tier? (I don't know if reopening Gliscor in that case would be a good idea)

Gliscor's ability to spread knock off is a buff to hazard-stacking teams.

Court Change Cinderace and Great Tusk are both reasonably capable hazard removers that fit on a variety of teams. The lack of defog isn't necessarily an issue.

It is not infeasible for Gliscor to get up three layers of spikes, get court changed, and then get up three layers again, rendering Court Change useless, as long as scor's team doesn't need to remove hazards.

I think that for people who believe hazards are a problem and need to be nerfed, even if the optimal outcome is to ban Gholdengo and keep Gliscor, the optimal decision in this vote is probably still to ban Gliscor as the hazard meta may become entrenched with people who support bans to weaken it being too split on what to ban.

I remain significantly too ambivalent to get reqs. Mission failed.

 

[kd458]

After reading through the very constructive on-topic discussion happening in this thread, I feel like writing up a post with actual points; if I wanted to watch several hours of chimps throwing shit at each other I'd spend the day at the zoo. Big shoutout to the people actually raising good arguments on both sides though, appreciate the reads, just a shame that mods have had to clean up so much screaming, crying and insult throwing over what is a democratic voting process.

What does Gliscor do?

To many, I don't think this needs an explanation, but there is clearly at least some misconception as to what Gliscor does that makes it worthy of a suspect in this thread and I'd like to put down those here before discussing this mon further. zannty summed this up well in an earlier post, categorising Gliscor into sweeper, hazard and stall/support sets (although I'd personally combine the latter two, there's definitely differences but Knock/Toxic seem somewhat interchangeable).

With Swords Dance, Gliscor can be a pretty serviceable sweeper, taking advantage of its large bulk, reliable recovery and defensive typing to get free turns to set up and deal significant damage with boosted Earthquakes, Knock Offs, Facades and very occasionally Ice Fangs. It compresses this role with the defensive one given by simply having a Gliscor, as it can still act as a defensive check to mons like Sneasler by virtue of its high bulk and resistances. This set can either use Tera defensively to get better setup opportunities and give it favourable matchups into certain offensive mons, or offensively by powering up Facade into a 140BP STAB move. However, this is definitely not an overbearing presence in the metagame, being much more of a niche pick that can put in work on offensive teams with an element of a surprise factor, and is not a major factor in the Gliscor suspect aside from providing some element of variance in its sets when a standard Gliscor will usually do the same thing on every team. Protect is also necessary to improve longevity, limiting the coverage that this mon can run.

The most standard Gliscor set is as follows:


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water / Steel / Fairy
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpD or 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpD
Impish or Careful Nature
- Earthquake / Knock Off
- Toxic / Knock Off / U-Turn
- Protect
- Spikes / Stealth Rock

The EVs can vary further with investment in both defences to hit certain benchmarks or small variations in speed, and the attacks are somewhat customisable with EQ-Toxic and EQ-Knock Off being the most popular combinations, but this is the set that causes the most issues in the metagame right now. Tera Water helps flip the matchup into Water and Ice-type attacks and deal with weather, while Tera Steel helps against Choice Banded Rillaboom and is what I typically see on stall, although other defensive Tera types such as Fairy are definitely usable. However, and this is something which people (particularly YouTube comments sections, shoutout Aim I love the vids but I could feel my brain turning to putty scrolling through those comments) don't seem to understand: Gliscor is not a Tera abuser. Tera can of course be used well by Scor to flip some defensive matchups, but one of the many strengths of Scor is its lack of Tera reliance as it will often retain its strong base defensive typing unless forced to Tera to panic check a mon, typically allowing for teammates like Kingambit to use that Tera for themselves; Tera-ing Scor means that you start taking >25% switching in on hazards, which is generally just bad. This is not a broken characteristic in itself, just wanted to clarify that if I have to read one more take about how Tera just needs to be banned and Gliscor will be fine and Smogon loves stall/doesn't do what the people want!!! I think my brain is going to melt.

What counterplay does Gliscor have?

The SD Gliscor set is walled hard by Corviknight, also struggling to break other mons dependent on its coverage and always having a tough time against defensive bastions of the tier like Great Tusk and Dondozo. Additionally, its lack of speed and inability to slot a speed-boosting move leaves it vulnerable to revenge killing by faster mons like Dragapult, Manaphy and Ogerpon-Wellspring, while Iron Defence Zamazenta can go toe-to-toe with it on boosts and come out on top. This set will not be discussed in great depth when considering counterplay to Scor as a result.

Although many mons do exist with a positive matchup into Gliscor, reliable counterplay to the defensive set is very limited. Very few mons that can immediately threaten it are able to take a Toxic on the switch and not get Protect stalled to death, with strong breakers that have super effective coverage like Wake, Ogerpon-Wellspring and Greninja unable to come in hard on Toxic variants unless it's on a predict, and some of these more item-reliant breakers like Specs Wake, Banded Rillaboom and Air Balloon Heatran can be permanently crippled by a Knock Off. Of course, Gliscor cannot run 6 moves, but the fact that all of these moves are very much viable and often not easy to discern from matchup due to the similarity of the sets definitely helps Scor deal with mons that can threaten it. Additionally, often super-effective coverage is not enough; both Dragonite and Great Tusk are unable to OHKO a PhysDef Gliscor with a quad effective unboosted Ice Spinner, and both are vulnerable to Toxic so will be placed on a timer as a result aside from niche techs like Substitute Dnite and Taunt Tusk that just aren't real sets. Also, keep in mind that many of these techs can be scouted by Protect, giving the Gliscor user enough information to play around them accordingly.

Some examples of counterplay that can lose 1v1 to Gliscor, even without considering Tera on Gliscor:
Ice Beam : Can be an effective lure to PhysDef sets, but fails to OHKO SpDef Scor and gets 2HKOd by EQ without full PhysDef.
: Ivy Cudgel does not OHKO Gliscor without Tera Water, and after a Toxic this mon is permanently on a timer.
: Freeze Dry isn't even a roll in your favour to kill PhysDef, also they aren't staying in ever.
Ice Spinner /: As mentioned before, Gliscor can comfortably eat a hit and Toxic back, even surviving Jolly Attack Booster Tusk's Spinner from full.
Hex : With Choice Specs, Hex is a roll to kill PhysDef Gliscor, but SpDef Scor can take one and either Toxic or Knock Off to neuter the Pult.
Knock Off: If you let your Gliscor get knocked before Toxic Orb activates that's completely due to making a bad play, there is no reason to risk this when all Scor run protect and you will typically get ample opportunity to safely activate it over the course of a game.

Some mons that do consistent beat Gliscor or can take advantage of it to make progress:
: Corvi hard walls Scor, not minding Knock Off and able to Defog if it stays in or U-turn out for momentum.
: With PhysDef investment and particularly under Grassy Terrain, a full health Hatterene can set up a CM on Scor and recover enough back with Draining Kiss to safely set up on it.
Double Dance : Acid Armor lets Manaphy set up easily on Gliscor, with Take Heart shrugging off any Toxics and letting Mana get free setup turns. However, Manaphy hates Knock Off and will struggle to maintain survivability if knocked and forced out by a different mon.
Sub CM : Enam can't come in hard on a Toxic, but when given a free turn to switch in turns Scor into setup fodder.
Sub : Zama again can't come in hard on Toxic and hates losing Leftovers to Knock Off, while also losing valuable coverage by opting to run Substitute, but with a sub up defensive Scor is helpless against it.

There are more mons that can deal with Gliscor like Neutralising Gas Weezing-Galar, but these are some examples of counterplay that isn't either inconsistent or too low on the VR to seriously consider using. However, one of the most controversial and unpleasant-to-play counters to Gliscor is:

Defensive : Two defensive Gliscors can sit on each other until one runs out of PP, getting up max hazards in the process. This leads to scenarios that we've seen in SCL where two Scors will just sit on the field for 20+ turns til one of them concedes and risks a Toxic/Knock on the switch. Comparisons to old Pex may seem apt, but imagine if both Pex could also get up enough hazards to do 25% to every grounded switch-in not running boots before they switched out.

This is definitely a not healthy interaction for the metagame, leading to situations like this in balance v balance that really shouldn't be happening but are almost unavoidable if you want to maintain optimal play. Of course you can switch out and take the risk, but most mons that can actually pressure Gliscor out are susceptible to being hit hard or ruined by Toxic on the switch. Gliscor is absolutely not a defensive mon without counterplay, but has ways to play around many of the things that try to deal with it and is often hard to successfully deal with as a result.

The Elephant (or string cheese, whatever you wanna call it) in the room:

Although this thread is explicitly about Gliscor and its individual qualities, it's somewhat disingenuous to discuss Scor without also considering the metagame it's currently in. Why is hazard stack so effective that 3 spikes going up will often be a permanent thing and not just a field condition that can be removed? Why is it so bad that a defensive piece can put up one form of hazard at a time, worse than Ting-Lu btw, when other defensive pieces can clear those hazards? Why is Corviknight so shit? Considering Gliscor without considering the effect that Gholdengo has on the metagame is living in fantasy, in the same way as when people were calling RM "not broken because Tera makes it broken". We currently play in a meta with Ghold and it's definitely a strong partner to Gliscor that enables it to maintain its hazards. Gholdengo also dissuades the use of removal in the tier that cannot beat Ghold, with Great Tusk and Cinderace mons that commonly fill the role of removal and coincidentally struggle vs Gliscor, giving Scor an even stronger place in the tier as a result.

However, shifting the blame entirely onto Gholdengo is not a valid argument, as not only does Gliscor still have all of its other utility options and defensive value independently of Ghold, both on ladder and in SCL the most common teammate to Scor was Clefable. These together form a strong defensive core that almost entirely ignores hazards, and are indicative of current balance teams that pack Gliscor, Clefable, (often boots) Dragapult for speed control and 3 defensive mons that either run Heavy-Duty Boots or ignore hazards. Even without a Gholdengo to block removal, these teams can stack hazards with Scor's ability to get many opportunities to freely do this over the course of a game in a way that Ting-Lu, Glimmora and Samurott-H can't with their more limited longevity and vulnerability to Spikes themselves. As of SCL Week 5, Gholdengo is a partner on 34% of teams with Gliscor, very similar to its overall usage of 32%, while Clef and Pult appear on 49% and 40% of Gliscor teams respectively.

Gholdengo definitely warps the meta in a way that Gliscor benefits from, but is clearly not the only reason for this current suspect. Additionally, voting should be done under the assumption that the tier will retain Gholdengo for the time being. It is not a given that Ghold would be banned even with a suspect of it in the near future, and so voting DNB on Scor based on the presumption that Ghold being removed would make it fine is not solid reasoning. Instead, voting should be done based on our current counterplay to this mon and the effect it has on the tier.

Is Gliscor broken?

When looking at the tier, Gliscor is clearly not a mon with no counterplay, although it does benefit from the complete lack of offensive Ice types aside from niche picks like Weavile and Mamoswine. Corviknight walls it hard, with offensive variants struggling to break in a meaningful way and defensive ones being taken advantage of by sweepers that don't fear Toxic like Hatterene and Take Heart Manaphy, while also struggling vs Substitute users and particularly Air Balloon Steel-types unless Toxic is dropped in favour of Knock Off. Protect gives it counterplay against choice-locked mons that can threaten to OHKO it but will often need to predict to not be walled by a switch-in, but its reliance on this for recovery can be taken advantage of by setting up, setting hazards or switching on Protect turns. It's hard to argue that Scor is a completely broken, unkillable defensive piece, and it's neither uncounterable, unwallable, nor unbreakable.

Is Gliscor banworthy?

My choice of words there was not unintentional. Although very different mons, parallels can be drawn to OU's last major defensive mon banned in Mega Sableye, who restricted counterplay to the archetypes it was used on, was a powerful defensive piece with the support of teammates and had an overall negative effect on the tier rather than being an uncounterable and outwardly broken mon in itself. This suspect clearly requires more nuance than other recent ones where broken threats like Ursaluna-Bloodmoon could muscle through so-called "counters" and instantly end games, and in my opinion could go either way, with definite valid points raised both for and against the retention of Gliscor in the tier. Perhaps the brainpower required is why many in this thread on both sides have resorted to flinging insults and getting heated more than any of the other recent suspects, but from what I hope is a well-informed perspective I believe that this mon has an overall negative influence on the tier and will be voting ban as a result.

 

[Wolf-X]

^....
How many times does it need to be mentioned in this thread. This is about Gliscor and not Gholengo

To avoid a useless post though, what do you guys currently believe exist as Gliscor checks? Would probably help progress discussion and give others stronger opinions on the pokemon

Rillaboom both CB and SD, grassy terrain heavily reduces EQ dmg too for team mates, can easily come in and destroy gliscor, still Gliscor has ways to kinda punish it to some degree (Toxic and such)
Ice Fang Gliscor ofc
Zoroark-H can lure gliscor into a false feeling of security and OHKO/2HKO depending on the set with expert belt Icy Wind.
Great Tusks with Ice Spinner ofc
Clefable, Manaphy, Greninja, Walking Wake, W-Ogerpon, Rotom-W, A-Ninetales, Mamoswine, Samurott-H

Im a few games away from getting the REQs and while Gliscor has been annoying in some games maybe even ban worthy due to the durability and amazing hazard set up, personally I havent had many issues with it but might vote Ban to make things more interesting/change, this meta is annoying. But IMO there is a HUGE elephant in the room at 40% usage... Kingambit is fucking crazy, and 100% ban worth in this meta, maybe the RMoon ban has made it easier for him or what but Its fucking disgusting and imo needs urgent action to make the meta enjoyable.

 

[kd458]

we should be re-analyzing The Tera Mechanic as a whole once more

This is exactly what I was referring to in the above post. Gliscor is not an abuser of the Tera mechanic. This has no relevance to the discussion in general unless you actually explain why you think Tera is or isn't making Gliscor an overwhelming presence, or if you have solid reasoning as to why you think Scor is in fact a Tera abuser itself and what this actually means for the suspect.

 

[Chaabi]

To avoid a useless post though, what do you guys currently believe exist as Gliscor checks? Would probably help progress discussion and give others stronger opinions on the pokemon

Corviknight is probably the only pivot that doesn't outright lose vs Gliscor and can bring in the frailer mons capable of threatening it in a safe way, those mons include (but not limited to) Sub Enamorus, Waterpon, Greninja, Sub Zamazenta or Hisuian-Samurott.
I've played and seen Double Dance Manaphy to take advantage of Gliscor, although it heavily dislikes having its Leftovers removed
You could also outplay Protects and block them into it with Encore, which is very prediction reliant and should never be someone's number 1 plan vs Gliscor, but it can work in a pinch.

All this is an acceptable argument until you realize that if Gliscor gets banned, we reach a combined total of 18 Pokemon since Gen 9 release that appeared in OU and were banned from it. We have never in the History of Pokemon have banned this many mons from OU, and we still have an entire half of the DLC left that has yet to be released.

Power creep has been awful This Generation, but even that can only go so far. let's face the facts. eleki would not be banned if it wasn't for tera, Volc wouldn't be banned if it wasn't for tera.

And banning so many mons is a problem... why exactly ? It's not anyone's fault for trying to ban what is banworthy, and while I can't argue in good faith that Tera isn't banworthy and pushed a decent number of mons over the edge, this isn't the subject at hand.
The goal of this thread is to talk about if whether or not Gliscor is broken in THIS metagame, at the CURRENT time that is today. It's not about another mon or tera.

 

[Shinto7654]

All this is an acceptable argument until you realize that if Gliscor gets banned, we reach a combined total of 18 Pokemon since Gen 9 release that appeared in OU and were banned from it. We have never in the History of Pokemon have banned this many mons from OU, and we still have an entire half of the DLC left that has yet to be released.

Power creep has been awful This Generation, but even that can only go so far. let's face the facts. eleki would not be banned if it wasn't for tera, Volc wouldn't be banned if it wasn't for tera.

anyway, I believe Gliscor should receive a DO NOT BAN and we should be re-analyzing The Tera Mechanic as a whole once more. It is clear and evident that this has gotten out of hand.

That is entirely irrelevant. The amount of Pokemon being banned in a generation of OU should have 0 bearing on anything because it isn't a goal to have a small banlist or a similar sized banlist to other generations. It's as useless a metric for tiering as BST is

 

[Finchinator]

if Gliscor gets banned, we reach a combined total of 18 Pokemon since Gen 9 release that appeared in OU and were banned from it

Damn, did I miss the “Dr.Unfuntimez clause” in the tiering guidelines that indicated we could only ban 17 things? My bad guys.

anyway, I believe Gliscor should receive a DO NOT BAN and we should be re-analyzing The Tera Mechanic as a whole once more. It is clear and evident that this has gotten out of hand.

your post has no actual commentary on gliscor besides DO NOT BAN in capital letters, bravo.

 

[Shinto7654]

Damn, did I miss the “Dr.Unfuntimez clause” in the tiering guidelines that indicated we could only ban 17 things? My bad guys.

your post has no actual commentary on gliscor besides DO NOT BAN in capital letters, bravo.

You must have missed it under Edagr Clause, easy mistake to make really

But yeah, seriously, the people going "Oh Gliscor is probably banworthy, but we gotta get rid of Gholdengo first" are both not even following the rule of the thread, and also assuming that Gholdengo would get banned guaranteed. What if it didn't? Would you all be fine with wasting like, close to a month on two suspects that didn't help OU at all out of frankly stupid spite?

 

[A1Gallade]

I usually don't post on things like this especially given how quickly these threads devolve into madness and my good friend kd458 made most of the points I would have made already so what I will say is this.

Gliscor, while not inherently broken by definition, definitely forces gamestates and play that are without a doubt 100% unhealthy to the metagame. Ignoring the 20+ turn gliscor wars in balance dittos that are reminiscent of ORAS Clefable, no other Pokemon can lay the claim that Gliscor can when it comes to invalidating so many other pokemon just by existing. Tusk is forced to run the otherwise largely suboptimal ice spinner on every set and still loses, Dnite has to run ice spinner now(lol), Lando has dropped off the face of the earth due to being hopelessly walled unless a sub cm or np set which is outclassed by Enamorus. Even the things that should beat it can wind up getting hit with a Toxic due to not being able to pick up an OHKO and get worn down while Gliscor itself just heals back to full later in the game. I understand that there will always be some mons that are better than others but the fact of the matter is most of them still have some kind of risk reward or cost associated. Gliscor just sits there, toxics everything and sets max layers and almost invariably winds up back at full hp with careful play due to poison heal + protect. It's entirely too free to not be looked at as a negative presence and if I'm able to get reqs with my work schedule being what it is, I will be voting ban.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

gliscor is a strong mon because, mostly, it is great in cores. Suspecting gliscor alone is probably to see if the problem is gliscor as it sets hazards up, But i'd want to prove a point. gliscor individually is nothing against one of the best.defoggers, corviknight. corviknight walls gliscor, can defog And U-turn on gliscor And do what it wants on gliscor, gliscor can only knock off, And looking at its lame attack stat, corviknight may Not want to lose its leftovers But It's better than losing hdb on cinderace. gliscor is imo Not a problem as it has a not-so-great matchup against useful And strong defoggers. Well, now you see, implicitly, that No gliscor is Not the one to take an action on. because people were victim of some kind of propagandia before the survey, gliscor is suspectes But next time i'd be glad to see an improvement in the mentality of voters globally.

 

[A1Gallade]

gliscor is a strong mon because, mostly, it is great in cores. Suspecting gliscor alone is probably to see if the problem is gliscor as it sets hazards up, But i'd want to prove a point. gliscor individually is nothing against one of the best.defoggers, corviknight. corviknight walls gliscor, can defog And U-turn on gliscor And do what it wants on gliscor, gliscor can only knock off, And looking at its lame attack stat, corviknight may Not want to lose its leftovers But It's better than losing hdb on cinderace. gliscor is imo Not a problem as it has a not-so-great matchup against useful And strong defoggers. Well, now you see, implicitly, that No gliscor is Not the one to take an action on. because people were victim of some kind of propagandia before the survey, gliscor is suspectes But next time i'd be glad to see an improvement in the mentality of voters globally.

You say that it has a poor matchup against "useful and strong defoggers" but literally the only defogger that could be considered useful is Corviknight who faces multiple issues already when it comes to its viability. When is the last time you saw Corv outside stall? Been a while for me. That notwithstanding, Corv is incredibly easy to take advantage of for most teams, especially the offense structures that are using Iron Moth more and more. Gliscor may be at its best with other teammates, but the same could be said of literally any mon and I sincerely don't believe that's a valid reason to say it should stay or go. Gen 6 Mega Sableye was only good because of its partners and yet had the playerbase consensus that it was unhealthy and so it was banned. The same will happen here, regardless of the outcome, the playerbase will determine what they deem the necessary action.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

. When is the last time you saw Corv outside stall?

Well before the oppressive domination of gholdengo, a.k.a. The one that has to go before gliscor to see if gliscor is really banworthy

Gliscor may be at its best with other teammates, but the same could be said of literally any mon

The difference being that gliscor needs its teammates to make progress While truly broken traits (sneasler And urshifu-b) need a minimal support (or none in the case of ursa) to BREAK through the opponent With apparent ease While gliscor forces progress, gholdengo is progress. If gliscor is strong, it is because of a broken teammate While truly broken mons make it too easy to kill or invalidate a mon. Tera is Never an argument as No pokemon was banned because of it, at least Not at the level of shedinja. all pokemon can abuse in some way of Tera, And almost all pokemon could abuse of z-moves, but Tera>z moves so anw i don't continue because madmen Will most likely quote my message And tell me that these arent comparable And thank you I already know what are the fundamental differences between Tera And Z. gliscor is Not a problem here. It's a hazard setter that can spread sTATUS to the spinners.
1) starmie We miss you
2) all hazard setters could do it in previous gens And I think that the problem is maybe the playerbase wanting an overused that ressembles swsh's While gamefreak didn't want by including Tera to the équation. swsh was an utopia. Now It's the end And We must admit it. I honestly think SS OU was trash, but hEY, Im Not here to be hated.

Gen 6 Mega Sableye was only good because of its partners and yet had the playerbase consensus that it was unhealthy and so it was banned. The same will happen here, regardless of the outcome, the playerbase will determine what they deem the necessary action.

And are you saying gliscor is comparable to sableye? That is outrageous! We couldnt spin on sableye, it had a real recovery, defensively spreaded status, We couldnt put hazards on it, and you dare think That a bat That puts some spikes on While being bad against the main defogger in the tier is comparable to this monster? And again sableye didn't change p much since oras If It's Not by gaining new toys And well, look! natdex UU And barely! I think It's ways too early for a glisc ban And the main problem here is the money stack.

 

[A1Gallade]

Well before the oppressive domination of gholdengo, a.k.a. The one that has to go before gliscor to see if gliscor is really banworthy


The difference being that gliscor needs its teammates to make progress While truly broken traits (sneasler And urshifu-b) need a minimal support (or none in the case of ursa) to BREAK through the opponent With apparent ease While gliscor forces progress, gholdengo is progress. If gliscor is strong, it is because of a broken teammate While truly broken mons make it too easy to kill or invalidate a mon. Tera is Never an argument as No pokemon was banned because of it, at least Not at the level of shedinja. all pokemon can abuse in some way of Tera, And almost all pokemon could abuse of z-moves, but Tera>z moves so anw i don't continue because madmen Will most likely quote my message And tell me that these arent comparable And thank you I already know what are the fundamental differences between Tera And Z. gliscor is Not a problem here. It's a hazard setter that can spread sTATUS to the spinners.
1) starmie We miss you
2) all hazard setters could do it in previous gens And I think that the problem is maybe the playerbase wanting an overused that ressembles swsh's While gamefreak didn't want by including Tera to the équation. swsh was an utopia. Now It's the end And We must admit it. I honestly think SS OU was trash, but hEY, Im Not here to be hated.

And are you saying gliscor is comparable to sableye? That is outrageous! We couldnt spin on sableye, it had a real recovery, defensively spreaded status, We couldnt put hazards on it, and you dare think That a bat That puts some spikes on While being bad against the main defogger in the tier is comparable to this monster? And again sableye didn't change p much since oras If It's Not by gaining new toys And well, look! natdex UU And barely! I think It's ways too early for a glisc ban And the main problem here is the money stack.

See, I'm gonna go down this in order.

I think Ghold needs a suspect for the record but this is not the place for that. We're here to talk about Gliscor as its own presence.

Gliscor doesn't need teammates to make progress. Max layers + knock or toxic are progress. Especially toxic + hazards. Anyone will tell you this. It doesn't need teammates to do either of these things, and that's discounting the potential for SD sets which are seeing less usage than spikes but still have plenty of viability.

No one brought up tera or z moves??? This part of your reply is just confusing. Not only that you reference Shedinja, a mon that was only legal in natdex. In addition to that, I doubt that anyone wants an OU resembling SS OU, we just want an iteration of SV OU which is both competitive and enjoyable to play.

Finally, the comparison to M Sableye is more apt than you seem to realize. Gliscor has exceptional recovery as well as an effective immunity to most hazards, while rocks are healed off in a single turn. Gliscor also defensively spreads status and the majority of things immune to toxic get smacked by EQ. Once again bringing up the "best defogger" in a tier starved for defoggers to the point that it's never seen outside stall, and when it is it's easy to take advantage of in countless ways, is redundant. The way the natdex meta functions is also of no importance to the SV OU meta that we're currently discussing for enough reasons that I don't think I need to explain them. I hope this clears some things up.

 

[OvertoneSeries]

I don't think Gliscor as a pokemon in itself is unbeatable - defensive Gliscor can be threatened by many useful parts of the meta (pretty much all the water types in the tier, Clefable, and many special attackers in general), as well as the newly-emerging Hex spam builds that are getting popular, and things like Bulk Up Tera Steel Tusk. It's important to note that most well-built teams will be fairly capable of 1v1ing Gliscor or forcing it to sacrifice its life for a Toxic or Spike. Many pokemon (e.g. Tusk, Slowking-Galar, Dragonite, random Tera Ice meme sets) are also running ice coverage in order to ensure Gliscor has to think before coming in, limiting its ability to hit the field and provide its value in the first place. It can still mindgame its way past its checks, live hits and press toxic, but that's far from a unique trait.

The spikes meta that Gliscor helps create is far from unbeatable, either - Hyper Offense can apply enough pressure that it limits the impact of spikes, Boots Spam is becoming a very common team structure that requires specific counterplay, and while Tusk and Corv are both far from reliable against Gliscor/Gholdengo teams, they force the hazard stacking side to play mindgames around their coverage/pivoting capability (even if those can often be in the hazard stacker's favor).

This meta is absolutely centered around Gliscor and its spikes in a profound way. But the meta has adapted to Gliscor, and adaptations will continue as long as it's in the tier. I think what this suspect should be here to ascertain is how healthy these adaptations are.

I like Boots spam, but it's limiting in a lot of ways - a huge amount of pokemon don't function well without leftovers or power-boosting items, and even they can struggle sometimes against Knock Off Gliscor. I also respect HO, and nobody is here to deny HO's place in the tier, but we also don't want a meta where HO is the only viable thing.

Bulky Offense teams built around Tusk are in a pretty weak place right now. Staples like Tusk and (to a lesser extent) Glowking have been weakened by their absolute need to run anti-Gliscor moveslots, it's become very difficult to consistently deny hazards, and you generally need to dedicate a lot of effort to find things that can switch in without losing too much. It will often force out teras or sacks in order for hazards to be denied. This is something that will probably stay true as long as Gliscor is in the tier.

I personally don't hate the Gliscor meta, and I don't find its presence to be unhealthy - but it's definitely restrictive for some team styles, and maybe to too strong of a degree. Right now, I'm leaning no ban, but I still need to think on it more (on the off-chance I get reqs).

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I don't think Gliscor as a pokemon in itself is unbeatable - defensive Gliscor can be threatened by many useful parts of the meta (pretty much all the water types in the tier, Clefable, and many special attackers in general), as well as the newly-emerging Hex spam builds that are getting popular, and things like Bulk Up Tera Steel Tusk. It's important to note that most well-built teams will be fairly capable of 1v1ing Gliscor or forcing it to sacrifice its life for a Toxic or Spike. Many pokemon (e.g. Tusk, Slowking-Galar, Dragonite, random Tera Ice meme sets) are also running ice coverage in order to ensure Gliscor has to think before coming in, limiting its ability to hit the field and provide its value in the first place. It can still mindgame its way past its checks, live hits and press toxic, but that's far from a unique trait.

The spikes meta that Gliscor helps create is far from unbeatable, either - Hyper Offense can apply enough pressure that it limits the impact of spikes, Boots Spam is becoming a very common team structure that requires specific counterplay, and while Tusk and Corv are both far from reliable against Gliscor/Gholdengo teams, they force the hazard stacking side to play mindgames around their coverage/pivoting capability (even if those can often be in the hazard stacker's favor).

This meta is absolutely centered around Gliscor and its spikes in a profound way. But the meta has adapted to Gliscor, and adaptations will continue as long as it's in the tier. I think what this suspect should be here to ascertain is how healthy these adaptations are.

I like Boots spam, but it's limiting in a lot of ways - a huge amount of pokemon don't function well without leftovers or power-boosting items, and even they can struggle sometimes against Knock Off Gliscor. I also respect HO, and nobody is here to deny HO's place in the tier, but we also don't want a meta where HO is the only viable thing.

Bulky Offense teams built around Tusk are in a pretty weak place right now. Staples like Tusk and (to a lesser extent) Glowking have been weakened by their absolute need to run anti-Gliscor moveslots, it's become very difficult to consistently deny hazards, and you generally need to dedicate a lot of effort to find things that can switch in without losing too much. It will often force out teras or sacks in order for hazards to be denied. This is something that will probably stay true as long as Gliscor is in the tier.

I personally don't hate the Gliscor meta, and I don't find its presence to be unhealthy - but it's definitely restrictive for some team styles, and maybe to too strong of a degree. Right now, I'm leaning no ban, but I still need to think on it more (on the off-chance I get reqs).

The problem here is that hazard can barely be removed, And that's Not a gliscor issue :p

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

having looked through many of the anti-ban arguments, i think it's interesting how almost all of them boil down to "yes, gliscor is broken but". if it's broken, why do you want to keep it? why are you taking the time out of your day and out of your life—time you will never get back—to grind reqs to try and make sure that something you consider broken stays in ou?

 

[xgermx]

I am probably not going to get reqs because i am not good enough, but i played some Gliscor and it was interesting how i was trying to beat it in a very ineffective way at the start.

The Gliscor that i found most troubling was the protect toxic EQ spikes one, and i also played it half of the time. The combination of the first three moves makes it so that if you are not powerful enough to quickly bring it down through its 25% percent recovery every one attack of your that hits, it can take down any number of your pokemons, which is very annoying. Anything that is toxic resistant will probably go down to EQ.

At the start i tried looking for counters, and the only one that 100% shut it down was Hatterene. With physical defense investment, calm mind and draining kiss it could switch in on it, deny spikes, take minimal damage from EQ, either set up on it or throw a draining kiss to go back to full health. Tbh this is the only full counter i found, though i tried other pokemons.
Double dance gliscor does setup on that set, but it doesn't stop spikes, and you will get both dances up only the first time thanks to the surprise factor, but that won't win you the game and successive times you will get a dance at most which is a bit underwhelming.
Clefable kind of works, but doesn't stop spikes.
Corviknight kind of works, but it doesn't deny spikes and then can fail at removing them in the face of an immediated switch to gholdengo.
I also tried a weird Breloom set with Toxic Heal and life orb (but you could use any other item). When they saw me not getting poisoned by a toxic orb, quite a few Gliscors threw me a toxic while i was setting up swords dance. Fun, but without technician the damage was a bit lacking. And it still doesn't deny spikes.

But the way i found most effective against my Gliscor when i was using with set was offensive pressure, getting more value from turns than what i got by clicking toxic or spikes. Like, switch in a strong attacker, force me to switch out, and get more value from the free turn thank spikes or toxic gave me. For spikes, it depends on how much damage you can do against how much problems you will have against a spikes layer. With toxic, yeah it puts you on a timer, and if Gliscor decides to use protect you take one more damage instance of toxic. But you can get a lot of value.
For example, Ogerpon water switches in, it gets poisoned. You sword dance on the protect. You now have very threatening attack that will hit something. You do lose hp 3 times for toxic, so lose about a third of your hp. That definitely puts you on a timer, but you apply a lot of pressure and can punch hole in the opposing team by repeating this twice.
You can do this with Ogerpon Water. You can do it with Manaphy, either with Tail Glow for a really threatening attack, or with take heart to be able to do it many more times. Choice specs walking wake is also a menace in this sense. Pelipper for rain teams can also probably do it.
These are strong mons that can setup on it to one shot, or directly one shot thanks to supereffective stabs. But Gliscor is also a bit frail so it can have trouble coming in on many mons that 2 shot hit. The physically defensive variance from the showdown builder gets two shotted by non-choice specs dragapult with dragon pulse + draco meteor, even with a toxic heal recovery in the middle, so it can't switch in.

There is also the fact that EQ is not really that strong without attack investment, so some pokemons like slowking-galar can switch in on it even though they are weak to it, and threaten with ice beam, which one hit KOs the physically defensive variants without SpA investment. You can come in multiple times if you choose to use slack off after coming in, but don't apply pressure then. Another option is to also run Rillaboom, which is already a very common pokemon and makes EQ good enough that types resistant to toxic can switch in easily.

Now the hazard removal part: the most common spinner, great tusk, has trouble against Gliscor even with ice spinner. But if you run knock off it easily beats the spin blocker, gholdengo. So you can just force out Gliscor offensively, then put in great tusk, spin, and repeat. Though again, great tusk will get worn down.

I feel like the point is that Gliscor checks and great tusk will get worn down over time, so Gliscor is certain to get progress and it forces a slightly more offensive playstyle, which makes it a great pokemon, but i feels like applying pressure works well enough and with enough variety of pokemon that it doesn't break the meta. You do have to think of it in the teambuilder, but that's true of quite a bit of threats.

Other Gliscors
If you want to run knock off or u-turn you have to give up a different move. If you give up hazards, now Gliscors has many more counters, since most of the ones i listed blocked everything apart from hazards. If you give up Toxic, you can't put any offensive threat that switches in on a timer. notably, Ogerpon shrugs off Knock Off. If you give up EQ... i don't think i played against anything like that, no idea.
They are all still great sets, and having multiple great sets where you can't predict the set can make a pokemon broken, but i think this is less true for a defensive pokemon like Gliscor since it is not like a mistake immediately loses you a pokemon. Also, the checks are kind of similar between sets.

For double dance, most of the time you get off only one since if invest offensively Gliscor is actually pretty frail. Sword Dance alone is kind of slow, agility alone is just not strong enough. You may set up both against an opposing Gliscor, and that still won't really win you the game because even at +2, ground+normal/flying coverage plus that base attack doesn't really one shot everything.

I didn't try sword dance + 3 attacks.

I also saw a couple posts saying how incredible it is that Gliscor gets all hazards. Does that even matter? It never runs multiple hazards, and how many times does it run something different from spikes?

Overall i feel like it is really strong and it does shape the meta, but doesn't restrict teambuilding that much.

 

[A1Gallade]

The problem here is that hazard can barely be removed, And that's Not a gliscor issue :p

Once again ignoring the point of this thread. To give this reply some meaning, I'll just add this.

Name another spiker that can so freely spike up on almost anything to max layers and wind up back at full hp for it. Not ting lu or samu, neither possess recovery. The fact is that no matter what the reason for hazards being permanent in many games, it still remains that nothing else can set them with as much reliability and as little risk as Gliscor which is again, the mon this entire thread is about.

 

[njnp]

Let’s please have better posts, please construct your thoughts well. A member has been banned from this thread and by how this has been going they will be joined

 

[quacc]

Alright, here's my take on Gliscor:

Man, it is hard to actually argue if a powerful support option is balanced or not by strictly looking at the mon itself. Gliscor relies on its teammates, but for the sake of the argument and strictly looking at Gliscor, I will make 2 distinctions, which are as follows:

a) Gliscor is responsible for setting the spikes up.
b) In whatever way the hazards stay up, Gholdengo is responsible for that.

With this in mind, let's strictly focus on distinction a, which is what the suspect concerns; it does not concern Gholdengo right now.

Gliscor is a hazard setter and a support mon, and it happens to match up well into the main hazard removal in the tier, Great Tusk.

To be honest, one form of hazard removal cannot realistically beat every single hazard setter. There are around 10 viable spikes setters, and the rest that set up spikes are not horrible at setting up spikes, rather they are just outclassed. For example, Toedscruel is actually a relatively decent spiker as it stands, but there are just better options.

Hazard setters being able to beat the hazard removal is not always a bad thing, and in some cases, it can be a healthy thing. Take gen 8 Heatran for example. It effectively could wear down and chip common hazard removal options, including Landorus-Therian with just a few magma storms. What makes Gliscor different? The longevity is really the main thing that sets it apart.

Gliscor has incredible longevity, and nobody is denying that. However, like the metagame discussion states, we should look purely at Gliscor in the metagame.

If we do this, we actually do have options, such as defog Corviknight and magic bounce Hatterene. Both of these are good options at beating Gliscor on its own, and both of these are actually good mons. No, Corviknight is not bad, there is a reason why it is still OU; it is a great pivot and still defogs great outside of the Gholdengo matchups and, before you say taunt Gliscor beats Corviknight, you forfeit your rights in either crippling Great Tusk or by forcing progress reliably. You also still can't get through Hatterene as well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

In addition to this, Great Tusk does not actually get utterly destroyed by Gliscor; ice spinner deals lots of damage to it and, with wish support from a pivot such as Alomomola, it is fairly sufficient at removing hazards.

Okay, now let's look at the offensive sets:

I don't see the offensive sets as problematic honestly. Yes, Gliscor has great longevity, but it's just a bulky swords dance mon. It's not sweeping games, but it does apply some pressure that could be annoying.

In my eyes, however, there are better swords dance users, such as Rillaboom as a relatively bulky swords dancer with great longevity and Kingambit as a bulky swords dancer that is incredibly powerful.

Next, we also needs to think about what banning Gliscor does to the metagame.

Spoilers: nothing, I'm afraid.

If Gliscor gets banned, Ting-Lu and Samurott-H would just rise up. If you have argued that these mons paired with Gholdengo are not problematic, all I have to say is that it is one of the things that made the HOME meta unenjoyable for me and for many others. Ting-Lu can be worn down by hazards as well, sure, but this is Ting-Lu we're talking about; straight up fattest mon in the entire metagame (more physically bulky than Dondozo AND special bulk is great with vessel of ruin), who even got a little friend this DLC to help it thrive with wish support; Alomomola. You think the Gliscor + Gholdengo synergy is rough? I would bet that Alomomola + Ting-Lu + Gholdengo would be as well.

Overall, I can see why people want Gliscor to get banned, but the truth is simply that banning Gliscor does not make any meaningful progress for stabilizing the metagame in my opinion; it just so happens to be the most flexible and reliable hazard setter, and there's nothing wrong or unhealthy about that in my opinion.

This is why I am ADAMANTLY DO NOT BAN on Gliscor; it is not as unhealthy as it seems and banning it does nothing for the tier.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

You think the Gliscor + Gholdengo synergy is rough? I would bet that Alomomola + Ting-Lu + Gholdengo would be as well.

alomomomomomola can wish-support gliscor too

 

[viivian]

Well before the oppressive domination of gholdengo, a.k.a. The one that has to go before gliscor to see if gliscor is really banworthy

for the love of god, banning gholdengo will not magically make gliscor more manageable, itll still be impossible to kill, itll still be impossible to switch into, itll still be impossible to kill, hey did i mention itll still be impossible to kill? and most importantly you are still not removing hazards so long as gliscor is alive. it uses every hazard remover in the game as spikes fodder as it shrugs off everything they throw at it and threatens them with a knock off or toxic, besides what, corviknight? it can either slot on taunt and continue using it as fodder if you really see fit to it or it can use corviknight to bring in its common non-gholdengo teammates such as dragapult and ID zamazenta to easily take advantage of it. youre not removing shit with gliscor around, gholdengo or no gholdengo. not to mention the myriad of other options/sets it can run beyond being the best spiker in the game bar none. i am genuinely so tired of having people say "erm gholdengo is the problem, not gliscor!" as if gliscor isnt infinitely worse for the metagame overall, and i am very sure the mods are having a fun time seeing people say this for the godknowshowmany-th time despite making it clear they dont want to hear anything about gholdengo in this thread.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

since people are still not listening, i'll try to make this impossible to ignore:

STOP
TALKING
ABOUT
GHOLDENGO
THIS
THREAD
IS
ABOUT
GLISCOR​

seriously, if i see one more fucking post about gholdengo i'm gholding-to-go insane

dammit mods, you deleted so many posts this fell back a page and now people don't have to scroll past it to post

 

[Storm Zone]

Hey just leaving my opinions on gliscor here =) , understanding both anti ban and pro ban, i want to discuss how i am heavily on the pro ban side of things and why i think gliscor is extremely restricting both in the builder/on paper, and in practice:-

- Lets take a look at its new buffs first, it gained toxic spikes, spikes, and crabhammer (which can be used effectively because of tera water), spikers have a bigger strain than ever on this metagame, what the anti gholdengo users fail to realise is, even if gholdengo is banned, there is nothing that can really beat all the spikers in this metagame and safely defog, corviknight is still the only prominent defogger, and we have ting lu, gliscor, ogerpon, samurott hisui, gren, multiple spikers that can wear corv down with stuff like taunt, i understand that the gholdengo ban would ease the strain, but it still wouldnt balance it, disagree if you want but if we are using logic, and looking at how these spikers are used, it would not make a huge difference, now spikes + poison heal is very hard to deal with in this metagame, and protect + toxic on top of that makes it even worse, u instantly force progress even on switchins because only a limited amount of mons can kill gliscor and they get spiked on and gliscor will pivot out after it spikes on their switch, to an encore mon or another bulky mon that will likely beat them, and being a knock absorber + status absorber + spiker + bulky ground in this metagame is ridiculously broken and Finchinator definitely made the right call here to suspect it, lets get to the tspikes, this is worse than spikes because only poison types can absorb tspikes, and not only does gliscor wall most if not all poison types, they cant even toxic it because of poison heal, so this would be an unstoppable toxic spiker, and gliscor gets taunt so corv cannot even defog if gliscor decides to prepare for it, taunt protect eq tspikes is all it needs, its a decent set, especially when ting lu can be placed on the same team with its invincible spikes, so we are looking at free tspikes + u threaten every absorber + knock status absorber + taunt preventing defog and u go into a mon that kills corviknight, this is not okay, and i hope you all see what im talking about when actually playing the metagame.

- Moving into its offense, even if you find a way to somehow neutralise gliscor, the spikes set, whether it be encore clef or ur own gliscor, which btw are the only 2 safe switchins given u got cinderace, the rest will get spiked or toxicd on upon switchin, gliscor can still run sd protect and go offensive, which allows it to beat nearly all its counters while terastallizing and even ending the game at times , depending on its moves, sd tera fire, fire fang can deal with corv + balloon dengo, sd + tera water ice fang or crabhammer can deal with other grounds + ice types since this excuse cant be made anymore "go into an ice type" nah that excuse got nuked by tera, it can tera water now, so now it actually doesnt have counterplay, all sd sets with tera cannot be accounted for by 1 pokemon, not even unaware clef with encore cuz i have seen sd toxic or sd tspikes, so u all see even if u nullify the defensive sets, the sd sets and even agility sd sets would still threaten ur counterplay to the defensive ones, again please acknowledge that this is not okay, a gholdengo ban woudnt solve anything, people would modify these spikers with taunt and other measures to deal with corviknight, none of the other birds have defog, if they did we could have made a case for a dengo ban instead but they dont, so the presence is strongly negative, ting lu or samurott may need to go as well, both really stupid, but this is not the thread to discuss that, lets move onto the next point.

- Lets look at its counterplay a bit, someone listed ogerpon, manaphy, hex pult, weavile, and others, lets start with wellspring, tera dragon gliscor would completely wall it with toxic protect, yes it burns a tera but its an insane tera on something like gliscor, a dragon with that kind of bulk and utility is 100% worth teraing, as u resist multiple other things too like still resisting volt, walling rotom wash now, walling rilla, and even beating sneasler at times despite losing its ground flying type, ice spinner from tusk after poison heal does net 30 to this ladies and gentleman, thirty, so dont say "oh u terad into an ice weak" thats jokes, lets move onto weavile, tera water toxic protect eq, tera water eq sd, weavile dies, yes u burn tera but again, any type with this kind of utility is an insane value gain, so its worth it, plus teraing gliscor happens often anyway only difference is u do it earlier, hex pult doesnt kill with hex, doesnt even 2hko some spreads, toxic protect up, and it dies, tera normal facade sd eq owns it asw cuz immune to hex, manaphy with boots is poop, like stinky stray doggy poop, its really bad, so it gets spiked on, and it takes damage from spikes with lefties, so u all see again all its counters are nullified, easily, there is something seriously wrong with how badly restricting this pokemon really is when u dive in depth to its analysis.

- It lowered the usage of many other grounds, and decent pokemon aswell, just because of how outclassed they are or how gliscor completely walls and owns them, ting lu, great tusk, and sandy shocks are prime examples, gliscor forces shocks to tera so ultimately gains value, spikes on ting lu and toxics tusk, people in the builder just disregard these grounds nowadays and say "ill just use gliscor and like mandibuzz" like stresh with his stall which btw can outplay any matchup, thanks to the versatility of gliscor, look at moltres, such a nice pokemon, checks rilla, blanket checks sneasler, fairies, wisps non rock move tusk, pivots out, beats gambit , really nice pokemon in general, and people say oh it gets fucked by gliscor, so its pushed aside, it has so many uses and it just gets disregarded because of gliscor, so ridiculous, teams are forced to run ground resists that are non toxic bound and obviously this is too restricting for a balanced metagame to be developed, for obvious reasons, things like iron moth also dropped a bit in usage, its still seen but not as much as it did before the dlc, because of gliscor, toxapex, a decent sponge, especially av, for many attacks, also dropped a bit in usage beca use of gliscor, Landorus T, which may be the biggest example, nobody even thinks to use it anymore because gliscor is infinitely better, u neutralised a great metagame staple because of the high restrictions that gliscor places on the metagame with the typing of that staple that is now non existent, just ridiculous, absolute unplayable pokemon, made multiple friends of mine quit or go back to old gens just because of how stupidly broken gliscor really is, never seen a pokemon more deserving of ubers since maybe chi yu or chien pao.

To conclude this post, i will be inanimously voting ban on gliscor with strong reasoning and sentiment behind it, and i hope others see that the negatives of keeping this thing HEAVILY outweighs the positive, have a nice day =)

 

[Over Thinker]

Its a support pokemon... ofc there are gonna be more checks and counters than smth like chi yu, zama-c, chien pao, or smth like zygarde-50% in past gens.

Even then clefable is spikes fother unless its a CM variant, dondozo can be toxic'ed and forced to rest which is easily taken advantage of, air balloon gholdengo relies on keeping the balloon up which isnt the most consistent thing in the world and if its knock off then ur out of luck. Ogrepon-wellspring and enamorus can estup with SD and sub but sub enamorus is only being used cuz it can fuck gliscor up with it.

Sure, Gliscor has few pokemon that can actually counter and it has ways to get past its checks but I'd argue that that is the case for many pokemon. A lot of defensive pokemon that are called counters to offensive pokemon can lose to them if they get chipped by other pokemon or hazards. Pokemon can also run more uncommon coverage moves to break past them like how after Home Great Tusk started running ice spinner for Zapdos and Landorous. Ground flying is a good type combo but has a weakeness to ice and water which are pretty common offensively.

What if they lead smth else? Gliscor doesnt have to be in the lead position to get the toxic orb off... you can just bring it in on a pokemon like gholdengo if ur sp. def or a mon like zama-h, amoonguss, corv, def zapdos, slowking-g without ice beam or surf, etc.

You're right but if you can position yourself correctly you can prevent the switch or punish it with a set-up move for example. Also many mons that may seem like gliscor can switch in freely into actually have ways to punish it. Zama can run ice fang which will isn't common may now be because of gliscor, Amoongus can spore preventing it from being poisoned. Many pokemon can also either beat or let Gliscor walk all over them. The problem is that in game you can't be certain of the moves or evs the pokemon has until later on in the game which means Gliscor will only come out later in the game which reduces its impact.

The test is about gliscor and gliscor only. Why are we going "well gholdengo is the problem! DUH, lets vote no ban and hope we vote ban there". What if then say "well gholdengo isnt the problem its kingambit"..... Nothing is ever going to get done then

The reason I brought up Gholdengo is because many people are complaining about Gliscor setting up spikes and how problematic spikes are for the meta when I feel that the fault lies more on Gholdengo rather than Gliscor since Gholdengo is what is making hazards so diffcult to remove.

"why should we try if it wont fix the problem" samu-h and ting lu are much worse at forcing progress compared to gliscor... you have counterplay to it... at least better counterplay than gliscor. We should focus on gliscor now instead of hoping "well we are going to ban ghold, gliscor isnt gonna be broken"

Yes I agree Gliscor is a better mon with spikes that Samu-H and Ting-Lu. I brought this up because from my perspective people were focusing a lot on Gliscor being able to set spikes on pokemon who wall it but who can't beat it in return. My point is that banning Gliscor won't solve the hazards pandemic.

We have 1 deffoger anyway... and great tusk is just gonna eat a toxic (any set without ice spinner is cooked anyway). Sure corv helps but its not like every team can run it.

While Corvinknight is the only defogger in OU, Mandibuzz and Weezing-G in UU are very much viable in OU on certain teams with Weezing-G either walling Gliscor with levitate or messing it up with N-Gas. Sure these we aren't exactly rich in options but we do also other less conventional methods of hazard control like Hatterene who can deal with Gliscor pretty easily and Cinderace who can swap the hazards (although there some teams who rely on boot spam and don't care much about hazards). Yeah the hazard removal situation is still baring but like I said other mons will just set the hazards up even if they don't have the longevity of Gliscor. While I'm still leaning on not banning Gliscor I'm more on the fence now, I just feel like the main thing pushing Gliscor is its ability to get up spikes which I feel that Ghold is more at fault than Gliscor for that