The problem is that Gliscor is a spikes setting machine that beats the two viable hazard removers in the tier in a long-term match. There’s no other hazard setter in the tier with that kind of durability and advantageous matchups. You touch upon knock/toxic but are glossing over the spikes issue. Gliscor would be fine if it didn’t have spikes.
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]
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Have went over my opinion on Glisc and hazards, in short, they've undeniably always beglen an issue in S/V and removing Gliscor does not fix it at all. I personally think Gliscor is positive for the tier
Will respond to post above in a bit, have something to do.
Still haven’t fully collected my thoughts on this mon, will likely make a more in-depth analysis post at some point, but I will say that regardless of whether it’s ‘broken’ or not, I don’t think this mon is a positive influence on the tier, both with its ability to get free opportunities to stack layers of Spikes and its ability to stonewall so many mons defensively + stifle removal itself with good matchups into most effective forms of removal in the tier.
I feel like a lot of people are somewhat misinformed on what the actual issue with Gliscor is because it’s absolutely not a strong defensive Tera abuser which is broken because of it, and the fact that it can vomit up a bunch of hazards isn't in itself broken especially when it usually only slots one into its movepool (and it’s never tspike, I personally think that Scor might actually be completely fine if it didn’t have the ability to make every grounded mon without boots take 25% on switch in). To me, the issue is more so the insane utility (both as a defensive piece and offensively with Hazards + Toxic + Knock Off) and role compression that this mon provides, and the inability of the metagame to deal with that. It’s definitely a major contributor to some of the main issues with the tier right now and although I’m not sure if I can justify calling it a broken mon in itself, I do think the meta would be more enjoyable and competitive without it.
I feel like a lot of people are somewhat misinformed on what the actual issue with Gliscor is because it’s absolutely not a strong defensive Tera abuser which is broken because of it, and the fact that it can vomit up a bunch of hazards isn't in itself broken especially when it usually only slots one into its movepool (and it’s never tspike, I personally think that Scor might actually be completely fine if it didn’t have the ability to make every grounded mon without boots take 25% on switch in). To me, the issue is more so the insane utility (both as a defensive piece and offensively with Hazards + Toxic + Knock Off) and role compression that this mon provides, and the inability of the metagame to deal with that. It’s definitely a major contributor to some of the main issues with the tier right now and although I’m not sure if I can justify calling it a broken mon in itself, I do think the meta would be more enjoyable and competitive without it.
Why? What does it add in the tier besides forcing teams to run 6x boots teams, or just running gliscor mirrors to just try to force each other to make progress because gliscor spikes are prob the best progress maker against bulkier teams.
What if we remove gliscor? Spikes will sure take a hit and you dont have to run 6x boots to just not to lose. Ting lu is nowhere near as oppressive as gliscor is at setting them up and harrassing the opponent
At the risk of being reductive here, it's important to highlight this aspect. In any competitive game, for balance to be even remotely a thing, it is required to assume that both players are at a similar levels. If archetype A has to significantly outplay archetype B to be fine/neutral, it is a crystal-clear sign that the first one is overpowered.
Edit to avoid double posting:
And of course, let's remember that being technically beatable isn't the issue at hand. Using past suspects as reference, I believe the community agrees Ursaluna-Bloodmoon wasn't known for being unbeatable, and it would hardly 6-0 a team. I also believe the community agrees that it punched way above its weight.
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I checked out what you said before. Curious, what makes you think that Hamurott or Ting Lu are on par with Gliscor?
Spikes have been an issue even pre dlc, removing Gliscor isn't going to magically fix ou's hazard problem. Gliscor as a knock absorber provides more options for bulkier teams (opponents can't run Glisc anymore but they just run another spike setter and knock offs), in particular vs hazards. Also as a defensive mon, I find it great into the previously dominating HO. That seems pretty good for the tier to me
Definitely not on par, they're not used as much rn because they're outclassed
I just think with how common they were earlier, S/V has always had a spikes problem
"Spikes have been an issue even pre dlc, removing Gliscor isn't going to magically fix ou's hazard problem" what is this mindset and its like saying "it wont fix the problem why bother to fix it"? Gliscor warps the tier and the hazard problem before was much more doable before.... no one had much of a problem with tusk and at least great tusk had no problem spinning vs it, and while it did a lot it wasnt even broken
So what if we lose a knock absorber for bulkier teams.... gliscor just spams spikes and makes you want to stack boots in order to not to lose to hazards, Ive never seen a problem this bad before in SV OU to my knowledge.
This is anything but good.. all it adds is by making the teams run more boots, making them not want ot take knock off, and run gliscor as a result because it is a knock off absorber, spikes immune, can set spikes, can tackle opposing gliscor, and is immune to spikes meaning its hard to wear down
I would have preferred a gholdengo suspect first, since we have precedent for what will happen after a gliscor ban (Hamurott/Ting-Lu + Ghold still causing an oppressive hazard centric metagame) and I doubt banning gliscor will actually fix the hazard problem. That being said I do think reducing the power of the hazard metagame by banning gliscor is a good thing, and I don't think the meta loses a valuable keystone with a gliscor ban.
That being said, a Gliscor ban is only warranted due to the hazard struggles imo. I think offensive sets are viable and pivot sets are strong (both worth using over standard hazard Gliscor on many structures), but neither is unhealthy for the metagame (at least, not moreso than sneasler). Also, anybody saying gliscor is strong because it's a tera abuser is misunderstanding the strength of gliscor and is frankly wrong. I'd actually argue tera is the least broken its been for awhile, but that's a separate can of worms.
Tl;dr
Ban because a ban could progress the metagame to a better state while not sacrificing much
That being said, a Gliscor ban is only warranted due to the hazard struggles imo. I think offensive sets are viable and pivot sets are strong (both worth using over standard hazard Gliscor on many structures), but neither is unhealthy for the metagame (at least, not moreso than sneasler). Also, anybody saying gliscor is strong because it's a tera abuser is misunderstanding the strength of gliscor and is frankly wrong. I'd actually argue tera is the least broken its been for awhile, but that's a separate can of worms.
Tl;dr
Ban because a ban could progress the metagame to a better state while not sacrificing much
I don't think I'm implying that we shouldn't fix it, banning Gliscor doesn't fix it, we don't need to ban Gliscor to fix it, so we shouldn't ban Gliscor over it. Yes, the hazard problem wasn't this bad, but I'm trying to say it's always been a problem, action on Gliscor doesn't fix it and it isn't necessary to fix it
A knock absorber for bulky teams is a positive, with wider knock distribution and there still being so many hazard setters in ou, Gliscor is bringing more positives than negatives to bulky teams, which have been struggling in sv. I think making certain archetypes more viable and making the dominating archetype less viable is overall good. While it may seem like people just run to Gliscor, I think it's just an option. 20% Usage and being on only one sample team indicate this
me. i'm to say that. wanna know why? because we had ting-lu, which is fatter than gira-a, and hamurott, which is cheaper than dirt, before the dlc, and neither one of those was deemed oppressive enough to be worthy of a suspect. hamurott got on a survey exactly once and that's it. the hazard meta was bad but it was never this bad and we only got one new spikes setter (ogerpon doesn't count, she never runs it). the meta won't move on to the next oppressive hazard setter because there are no other hazard setters who are actually oppressive in the way gliscor is oppressive
Then what does? Clearly people dont really like the meta rn and they think its either gholdn or gliscor... so what does gliscor do in the meta that its so worth to keep? gliscor is broken? well we go and boot it out insetad of trying to find some workaround because we think there are some positives to it
Gliscor forces boots spam or just mirror hazard stack... how is that anything positive? How does that add creativity or fun for the user. 20% usage shows that its seen a lot... sample teams show that teams have to bend their ass off to try to beat gliscor
Btw gliscor is S rank... so there is no reason to say its not top tier or anything ... it pretty much forces gliscor mirrors, 6 boots, or just out offense it to make sure the spikes arent providing as much value and so balance teams have to bend their ass to deal with it and even then offense dont really have a good switch in
Im one to blame Ghold, but outside of that I think a Gliscor ban is worse for the meta than keeping it because it doesn't fix the negatives and you miss out on its noteworthy positives. I've also implied throughout the thread that I don't find it broken
Gliscor doesn't really force that, as even pre dlc, if you didn't have your own hazard stack/were an HO team, you ran a lot of boots or more removers. Gliscor just provides a knock absorber for these teams and makes them more viable, I imagine that without Gliscor the meta will heavily shift to HO again and be less healthy
Gliscor is a very good pokemon yes, not denying that, I was trying to say I don't think you're forced to run Gliscor on balance teams though, it's just an option as a knock absorber
Also feel free to ignore this post and agree to disagree if you also think we aren't going anywhere
I don't follow your flow of logic then. You acknowledge, as most players do, that SV has a spikes problem. Right now, Gliscor is objectively the best spiker in the tier and has the highest usage of all spikers. Therefore, it follows that Gliscor is a problem for the meta that should be taken care of.
By definition, we ban mons because they are broken in the current meta, not because of what we think will happen downstream. It doesn't matter if Hamurott and Ting Lu rise in usage after Gliscor gets banned, what matters is that Gliscor is an issue right now, and present issues have to be dealt with.
If the next spikers that rise somehow end up being problematic even following Gliscor and Ghold bans, then they'll get suspected too. But right now Gliscor is the one setting the spikes, not Ting Lu or Hamurott. Gliscor and the present meta is the only thing that should be in the picture.
Okay, so after reading more posts I decided to made another post regarding to gliscor.
I would like to propose a comparison of Gliscor in gen 9 OU and Lando-T in gen 8 OU, the latter which is not cosidered to be broken, but has its own controversies in the tier. Since gen 8 have no gliscor, you had to use lando-t by default if you want to use ground/flying. In gen 9 ou, lando-t is simply not good by comparison at the very least, so clearly both dominates.
And then you look at their toolkits... yeah
Gliscor can passively heal much more than Lando -T ever could, accumulated by protect to strengthen it's longevity. SD on both are not really consider broken by almost anyone so lets skip that. And then, both are ground types are toxic users that are ground types, so it also cancels out. However, Gliscor has ALL THREE HAZARDS as opposed to only sr for lando. Getting up those hazards are not hard at all given the longevity of them, but poision heal elevated the bulk to increase the chances that you could get up multiple layer of hazards, as opposed to ever only able to set up one. Both have u-turn, knock off. Gliscor was pretty much just gen 8 lando-t but way way better. Not to mention that defog distribution has been severely limited, removing practically any defogger besides corviknight (which is a unreliable defogger due to ghold anyway and don't even always run the move), one viable rapid spinner (Great Tusk) which you also need ice spinner on the set to actually threaten it, and heavily afraid of toxic, and court change cinderace which lose to gliscor 1v1 anyway, and need to pair with Great tusk to even keep them off in the first place, which restricts teambuilding. It is possible to kill gliscor, but no matter what, it's spikes set (or the occasional stealth rock) always give value that had very little actual counterplay. The Combo of Gliscor plus Ghold really cant be stop reasonably without specificly building a team to counteract it, which is usually worse off against other playstyles(not going deeper into ghold to prevent off topic). Gen 8 Lando-T simply doesn't put as much constraints to team building as gen 9 gliscor does, especially when weavile is a top mon. Speaking of Weavile, this meta heavily lacks ice types. The only one was Ninetails-Alola which is a support mon, and usually just want to set up aurora veil. It also loses to ghold which is a common partner, so it really doesn't hurt gliscor. Especially cuz Gliscor runs protect, it can help stalling out veil turns. Otherwise, you had the at best B+ tier Weavile, which is not bad but not great either. It also does not switch into Gliscor. This is especially noticeable with the bax ban. Weavile is really popular in gen 8, limiting lando in some way,especially because lando lacks the longevity to withstand infinite assults. Gliscor is so good that people had to use their own gliscor to check it, and the SD set crush them with ease. There is no true bad matchups to Gliscor, unlike Lando where it could be limited against some structures. Versatility is good if you want a healthy meta, withstanding otherwise dangerous threads, hence why great tusk was not banned pre home. Gliscor is different. It do check a vary of threats, yes. But it also take advantage of them too hard
Conclusion: Again Plz Ban
I would like to propose a comparison of Gliscor in gen 9 OU and Lando-T in gen 8 OU, the latter which is not cosidered to be broken, but has its own controversies in the tier. Since gen 8 have no gliscor, you had to use lando-t by default if you want to use ground/flying. In gen 9 ou, lando-t is simply not good by comparison at the very least, so clearly both dominates.
And then you look at their toolkits... yeah
Gliscor can passively heal much more than Lando -T ever could, accumulated by protect to strengthen it's longevity. SD on both are not really consider broken by almost anyone so lets skip that. And then, both are ground types are toxic users that are ground types, so it also cancels out. However, Gliscor has ALL THREE HAZARDS as opposed to only sr for lando. Getting up those hazards are not hard at all given the longevity of them, but poision heal elevated the bulk to increase the chances that you could get up multiple layer of hazards, as opposed to ever only able to set up one. Both have u-turn, knock off. Gliscor was pretty much just gen 8 lando-t but way way better. Not to mention that defog distribution has been severely limited, removing practically any defogger besides corviknight (which is a unreliable defogger due to ghold anyway and don't even always run the move), one viable rapid spinner (Great Tusk) which you also need ice spinner on the set to actually threaten it, and heavily afraid of toxic, and court change cinderace which lose to gliscor 1v1 anyway, and need to pair with Great tusk to even keep them off in the first place, which restricts teambuilding. It is possible to kill gliscor, but no matter what, it's spikes set (or the occasional stealth rock) always give value that had very little actual counterplay. The Combo of Gliscor plus Ghold really cant be stop reasonably without specificly building a team to counteract it, which is usually worse off against other playstyles(not going deeper into ghold to prevent off topic). Gen 8 Lando-T simply doesn't put as much constraints to team building as gen 9 gliscor does, especially when weavile is a top mon. Speaking of Weavile, this meta heavily lacks ice types. The only one was Ninetails-Alola which is a support mon, and usually just want to set up aurora veil. It also loses to ghold which is a common partner, so it really doesn't hurt gliscor. Especially cuz Gliscor runs protect, it can help stalling out veil turns. Otherwise, you had the at best B+ tier Weavile, which is not bad but not great either. It also does not switch into Gliscor. This is especially noticeable with the bax ban. Weavile is really popular in gen 8, limiting lando in some way,especially because lando lacks the longevity to withstand infinite assults. Gliscor is so good that people had to use their own gliscor to check it, and the SD set crush them with ease. There is no true bad matchups to Gliscor, unlike Lando where it could be limited against some structures. Versatility is good if you want a healthy meta, withstanding otherwise dangerous threads, hence why great tusk was not banned pre home. Gliscor is different. It do check a vary of threats, yes. But it also take advantage of them too hard
Conclusion: Again Plz Ban
Ting-Lu or Chomp don't have an ounce of longevity when compared to Gliscor. Both are grounded and vulnerable to toxic, and Ting-lu needs tera in order to check Great Tusk. Garchomp's longevity is pretty much reliant on leftovers, making it vulnerable to knock off. This is quite a stark contrast to Gliscor who can function as an incredibly useful knock-off (and status) absorber. But now that Clefable is in the tier, defensive Garchomp just isn't that a great of a set in general. It is Gliscor's longevity combined with its ability to threaten almost every spinner/defogger in the tier (except Corviknight) that makes it extremely opressive, much more than any other setter in the tier.
that is exactly the problem. Other grounds simply has not good longevity, comparatively speaking, to actually continue to stay on the field unlike gliscor.
first of all,
second of all, you didn't really mention how they actually compare to gliscor beyond saying "oh but ting-lu and garchomp live long with protect", which is a move they don't even run and have never run in any serious context. even if lefties + protect ting-lu were a thing (chomp doesn't even enter into the discussion), gliscor heals twice as much per turn and serves as a knock off absorber and status absorber simultaneously, and it can switch in and out easier because it's also immune to spikes, plus it gets toxic, knock off, u-turn, and toxic spikes, none of which ting-lu can run (and i'm glad—if it had knock off or toxic it'd likely be suspected at some point). gliscor is just way better in terms of longevity, flexibility and utility than ting-lu or any other spikes setter to the point where it's almost nonsensical to even compare them
You make good points, that’s it, that’s the post. I’m not in the mood to argue. If it goes it goes, if it stays it stays. I don’t really care atp. I might’ve slipped something in about other grounds not having the exact longevity. But I can’t be asked to check.
Edit: the image got a slight grin out of me, well done.
Follow Up Edit: I deleted my older posts bc they were just toxic & poorly written.
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I think otherwise. We should look at the meta right now... if gliscor is broken and is making the meta we should boot it out instead of wait again for another suspect for ghold to potentially get the same result and just be stuck in a "this isnt broken, we should deal with x instead"
While yes gholdengo is part of the problem. Pre DLC you still had teams with varying structures running around instead of 6 boots, an offense team designed to take advantage of the hazards, and hazard stack balance team....
False! A lot of teams pre DLC can viably run items that arent 6 boots or hazard stack in return to deal with them.. The "second samples post home" are a pre dlc meta and showcase how they are viably able to run a lot of items and not be resricted... Gliscor provides a knock absorber but we need a knock absorber because without one you kinda suck into gliscor spikes + knock off. At least into smth like ting lui you can viable run removal options and not be forced to run suboptimal options just to deal with it... Ting lu isnt as oppressive of a spiker and is much more managable.
With gliscor the meta is just gonna be hazard stack and HO and just be stupid to deal with... run anything but 6 boots on a balance team and ur gonna have a great time!
What does this image show? It shows the enjoyability is pretty mid and people are not exactly satisfied and that they think the meta can be improved upon. By the end of SS the enjoynment was at 6.8/10 and the comp was at 7.25/10 which shows we can do much better than this. People want smth to happen and 6 isnt exactly a result you want to be joyful with .... why are we putting up with this meta and just saying "gliscor isnt broken lol" gliscor has a 4/5 from the qualified playerbase ... i think they do want smth to happen and i think ignoring it is just gonna lead to shit...
What do we achieve by waiting and hoping the next suspect goes right... We should focus on trying to fix things now instead of hoping in the future we achieve the desired result
Kenpwnchi
formerly Pwndkthnx
Pre-Ladder Exp
Okay. So, I decided to create a Gliscor team, and I'm gonna try to use it to get reqs. I'm not sure how this is gonna go, but pray for me. My Gliscor has U-Turn, Earthquake, Acrobatics, and Ice Fang. Ofc, I gave Gliscor Max Speed, Choice Scarf, and Tera Type Ice to be able to counter other Gliscors (during the mirror matches). Everything else I'm using for Gliscor seems pretty standard (for the most part). Pre-Ladder Exp, Gliscor appears to be slighly problematic, but I'm not quite sure if I can deem it banworthy yet. Thus, I will test Gliscor out myself to see what the hype is about.
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Okay. So, I decided to create a Gliscor team, and I'm gonna try to use it to get reqs. I'm not sure how this is gonna go, but pray for me. My Gliscor has U-Turn, Earthquake, Acrobatics, and Ice Fang. Ofc, I gave Gliscor Max Speed, Choice Scarf, and Tera Type Ice to be able to counter other Gliscors (during the mirror matches). Everything else I'm using for Gliscor seems pretty standard (for the most part). Pre-Ladder Exp, Gliscor appears to be slighly problematic, but I'm not quite sure if I can deem it banworthy yet. Thus, I will test Gliscor out myself to see what the hype is about.
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Kenpwnchi
formerly Pwndkthnx
Who are y'all again? Anyways, I guess I'll use CrAb HaMmEr, BrUh. Makes total sense. If I paid y'all to think deeper, would y'all accept my offer? Also, if y'all could expand upon your awesome set(s), Kin+ak (✧∇✧) and LameLiarLeo, that'd be great! Speak up!
My reply is Not to use gliscor on ho. otherwise a eq+tox+spikes+ protect is good and koff is actually valable on this one.
Only reacted because I'm under the assumption it's a joke, but I've met people who unironically believe in worse things so
Gliscor's attack stat is a measly 95, this is simply pathetic without any boosts and doesn't make a Scarfer, especially when it has some of the best bulk available, no reason for going Scarf really. Not to mention one of your stabs is 55 BP, and your coverage move of choice is a 65 BP move that really hits nothing Gliscor is worried about.
Basically your pokemon is a bulky one with a pathetic attack stat, AND weak moves, yet you go for a Scarf set..?
Basically your pokemon is a bulky one with a pathetic attack stat, AND weak moves, yet you go for a Scarf set..?
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