Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]

[JunkoAJ]

Pre-Ladder Exp
Okay. So, I decided to create a Gliscor team, and I'm gonna try to use it to get reqs. I'm not sure how this is gonna go, but pray for me. My Gliscor has U-Turn, Earthquake, Acrobatics, and Ice Fang. Ofc, I gave Gliscor Max Speed, Choice Scarf, and Tera Type Ice to be able to counter other Gliscors (during the mirror matches). Everything else I'm using for Gliscor seems pretty standard (for the most part). Pre-Ladder Exp, Gliscor appears to be slighly problematic, but I'm not quite sure if I can deem it banworthy yet. Thus, I will test Gliscor out myself to see what the hype is about.

Assuming this is a real post!

Okay an actual real HO Gliscor set would need to be SD, Earthquake, Facade and Protect. Base 95 attack isn't enough to just run max attack and try and kill shit, so SD is needed. Earthquake is fine but Acrobatics is an absolutely awful idea when you're holding a Choice Scarf. The point of Acrobatics is to do double damage when you don't have an item (Booster Moon, Air Balloon/Grassy Seed Sneasler) so you have a 55BP move from a base 95 attack which is basically worthless. Ice Fang isn't a great move for Ice coverage and if you're using it to beat opposing Gliscor, it doesn't do it very well.

252 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 144-172 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Ice Tera Type Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 216-256 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Using Scarf as an item is pretty bad because unless you're running a Sand team, I guess, you literally don't have an ability.

Gliscor is at its best this generation running Toxic Orb + Poison Heal and going fully defensive to spread as much passive damage and chip as possible.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpD
Tera Type: Water
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect
- Spikes

This is the set you should be using/looking out for if you're trying to get a proper grasp on how good/constricting Gliscor can be.


Since I'm here I might as well just point out I think Gliscor is simply a symptom of the poor hazard removal situation created by... a certain other mon. When I'm going for reqs I might change my mind, but as of now I would go no ban. I personally think that it is only constricting because of other mons in the meta. Personally, the suspects (while I understand why it's this way due to the nature of the survey results), should've been done in the opposite order in order to truly understand if Gliscor is the problem or not. I hope I'm making sense and I know why people would vote ban but this is how I feel about it.

 

[AK]

I’ll be voting Ban on Gliscor. It just takes away too much from the playing stuff and I don’t consider the Gliscor on Gliscor action balanced at all. I’ve seen it being compared to tusk in pre dlc or toxapex in previous gens but it really makes no sense as it doesn’t make any progress. I’d rather spikes being banned but I doubt that will ever happen so this is the other option.

On top of that, the Swords Dance set is way too good and balance/bulkier teams have almost zero counterplay to it. It’s a pain to scout because of moves like toxic, and the progress the SD+Koff set makes is nuts. Corviknight is an option but it always takes rocks + loses item and loses in the long term, stuff like slow turn + encore or ice move (which is only Weavile and really not powerful enough to be viable atm imo) can work but encore can give away a free turn if you don’t get it right.

I understand the arguments that it might not be outright broken, but I’m convinced it has to go if we want to somehow have something close to a playable metagame. (although with dlc coming in a month I seriously doubt that we will have enough time for that, unfortunately.)

 

[LovelyLuna]

Dude wtf do you mean tera agnostic ICE IS AN AMAZING OFFENSIVE type ITS INSANELY BUFFED BY TERA

Completely Ignores the first (and most relevant) point, and then Gliscor is getting buffed by Tera just as much as any pokemon is, if not less, it's good in particular because it gives other mons an opportunity to Tera.

Its not horrible you were just thrown into a brick wall as a child infact im amazing brain surgeons were able to repair your brain from the immense amount of abuse from your deadbeat alcoholic father. Iron Bundle is not even ubers worthy it is mid coverage is not insane ban worthy. Volcarona is mid just use a physical attack which doesnt make contact or use protective pads / punching glove and it gets beat by ditto and unaware mons.

This is also completely uncalled for, this is a game about pokemon for god's sake. Wasn't Here for Bundle but Ice/Water with Freeze Dry is plenty stupid coverage, especially when you're the second fastest mon in the tier, and the one thing faster can't switch in, and is forced to run a Timid nature. Volc beats said unaware mons depending on which of the 10 viable Teras it could run it used, and Ditto ever being ou viable is when ou is doomed.

Won't engage with this any further, again, this is a thread for , even showed the sprite right there, we do not need to talk about them in this thread when another one exists

 

[poiuygfd]

i go to sleep, wake up and suddenly people are talking about others being thrown against the wall as infants. what the hell happened here? like i'm on the pro-ban side for gliscor, but like that's no reason to go around throwing insults at anyone who disagrees, we're all entitled to our own opinion. there's no need to be toxic, just cause that's what gliscor is doing.

so that this post actually contributes something, just another thing i wanted to mention about gliscor is that if we compare it to great tusk, who held the position of the bulky ground glue mon of the tier before gliscor came along, we can see a few noticeable things. tusk has a lot of bulk, but lacking reliable recovery to heal itself back up cuts down on its longevity. i don't think that's a bad thing, because gliscor gets so much recovery that removing it from the field becomes extremely difficult. tusk still works extremely well as a bulky ground that threatens a lot of the tier to keep them in check, takes hits, has utility in hazard removal and knock off, and overall works excellently as a glue mon. tusk is the kind of glue mon i like to see for the tier, easy to fit on a team, covers a lot of roles, but isn't overbearing and doesn't overstay its welcome and has plenty of counterplay itself.

gliscor just takes things too far in my opinion, in addition to doing the same bulky ground things tusk can, but even better because poison heal gives it probably the best, most consistent healing source of the ou roster thanks to the pp nerfs giving protect a massive advantage and its healing source not being able to be knocked off like with leftovers, as well as having the item removal utility tusk has, it pushes things too far with its absurdly customisable utility. not only is it by far the best spikes setter in the tier, but if you want you can opt to run toxic spikes or stealth rock instead, and it does great at setting those too. toxic is a tool that allows it to beat most mons in the long run, or if not beat then at least permanently cripple and put on a timer, and it just so happens to have stab earthquakes to hit the two types that aren't threatened by toxic, steak and poison, for super effective damage meaning only a few mons like corviknight can actually come in safely on gliscor. if you decide to slot in taunt then corv can't do much either, and it even has u-turn for bulky pivot potential. its versatility is insane and is what pushes it over the edge for me, gliscor can do so many things and its hard to tell what it can do until it reveals it on its own. thats not even accounting for the potential to be smashed by an offensive variant while you were expecting to get a spikes to the face instead.

gliscor just does so much more than tusk or lando ever could, to a better degree than they could, all the while being able to stay on the field longer than they could, and i don't think that the positive traits it brings to the tier are worth all the negatives it brings along with it, its just too good at its job to the point it becomes overbearing and straining on team building. banning gliscor and going back to tusk or lando as the bulky ground glue would be the healthiest thing for this tier since at least those mons can be worn down.

 

[zannty]

I rarely post on these as I don't often have a lot of experience playing with the mons up for suspect. I will often play against them but generally rely on a mix of my personal opinions and what others think about the mon. With that said I have a lot of experience playing with gliscor. I think their are 3 main uses for gliscor right now and I will touch on all 3 (this will involve talking tangentially about gholdengo but the focus of this post is on gliscor not on ghold and in all seriousness when talking about the support mon you do need to discuss the mons it is supporting).

Firstly I will talk about probably the least good set, the set up sweeper set. This set usually runs knock/EQ, facade/EQ, protect, and SD. Of all the sets I think this is just the worse. Knock is always nice but facade even with sd is just not that threating in all honestly. The big appeal to this set is it makes a set up sweeper that is fairly hard to kill. However things like ice beam slowking galar and icicle spinner from tusk can definitely take care of this set. Especially since this set does not run toxic, ice spinner tusk is quite good here. I don't think anyone thinks this set is what makes it too good so I won't spend anymore time on it.

The second set is the hazard set which is EQ, knock, spikes, and protect. This set is very much a support set that can set up hazards knock off boots and make opposing pokemon take a lot each time they come in. This set is often paired with ghold which prevents the hazards that gliscor sets up from being cleared. Know I will compare this to another support/threat duo that was seen as extremely powerful in post dlc, baxcalibur and ninetales alola. This set had great synergy together with ninetales setting up aura veil and then bax coming in and being extermely hard to kill. While the duos do have their differences I do think they are quite similar. And in both cases I think the support mon was/is not the problem. After bax got banned ninetales usage dropped significantly. Its still good but not amazing anymore. I think the same thing will happen with gliscor if ghold is banned. Teams will start running more answers like defog corviknight. Finally banning gliscor does very little for this usage point. If gliscor is banned another spikes user will just take its place and the problems will continue. For these reasons I do not think that this set is enough to get gliscor banned.

The last set is the stall/support set of EQ/knock, toxic, spikes, and protect. This is arguable the best set and the set I think needs to be considered when talking about if gliscor should be banned. This set is good. But the question is not if it is good but if it is too good. The arguments I have seen for this set being too good is that the combo of toxic + EQ can deal with pretty much any threat and the healing from toxic heal makes it too hard to deal with. Lets break up these 2 points. The second point that its too hard to deal with I just don't think is true. There are lots of OU pokemon with good matchups into this set such as:
Iron Valiant
Air balloon Goldengo is able to not get posioned and is immune to EQ
Iron moth
Ogerpon wellspring
Ogerpon rock
Choice band rillaboom
Manaphy
Air balloon Heatran
Corviknight
Slowking Galar (with ice beam)
Walking wake
Greninja
Alomomola
Enamorous
Dondozo
All of these pokemon can either threaten gliscor with super effective moves that forces it to tera or switch out or are immune to toxic such as gholdengo and slowking galar. I won't talk about all of these in depth but some I want to mention, slowking galar is often not 2hkoed but 3hkoed by gliscor (7.4% chance) where as ice beam is guaranteed to 1hko. Enamorous sometimes run sub which is impossible for it to deal with and if it is choice specs the massive damage is enough to threaten gliscor. Iron valiant can threaten with special attacks or it can encore a move like spikes and force a switch out. Dondozo can rest to clear toxic and takes quite little from eq.
For the other point about this set, EQ and toxic is a great combo but that enough I do not think makes it too good. Things like levitate weezing galar or air balloon gholdengo (most popular item for ghold), sub enam, and slowking galar all can deal with it still. So even with the EQ+toxic I think there is still significant counterplay against this set that makes me on the side of this set is not good enough to get it banned.

Lastly I want to touch on some arguments I have seen for why it should be banned.
It forces you to run moves like ice spinner tusk and ice beam slowking and is warping the meta too much. Gliscor imo warps the meta less than so many other pokemon. Gambit warps the meta a lot more than gliscor and it was deemed fine. Every good team should have a way to deal with all top tier threats and just because it forces you to run a move that you weren't running before is not enough of a significantly impact on team building. New pokemon requires an adaptation to the current meta which is what happened with ice spinner tusk and air balloon ghold. This is not warping it is adaptation.

Also there is some discussion about tera and gliscor. I think tera makes gliscor worse imo. You can have a mon (like garg or ghold) tera flying and then you can no longer touch it. Or you can tera poison or steel to stop a toxic and threat to ko it back. While on the otherhand you don't really ever want to tera gliscor. Its basically immune to hazards. It is immune to both ground and electric moves. This makes its typing very powerful and not something you want to change.

Lastly there is talk about how it is the most popular ground type, limits other ground types from being used and is extremely common. This I feel is similar to tusk pre home and in all honesty tusk pre home was not overpower just a good jack of all trades mons. You had to decide is there a reason to run x ground type over tusk and usually the answer was no. That is similar here but with gliscor instead of tusk and only applying to defensive ground types in all honesty. Tusk still had more usage than gliscor. It is not stopping other ground types from being used (ting lu and lando still in OU as well), so I just don't think this argument is valid either.

So with all of this said, I think there is significant counter play in just OU mon (not even discussion fringe mons like sneasel) that I do not think it deserves to be banned. It is a great mon and certainly an annoying one but it is not overpowered and should not be banned. Therefore I will be voting DNB for this test.

Also just a last note. There is way too much unreasonable messages on this thread right now that are 1 not contributing anything and 2 just insulting others. Please be respectful and post meaningful messages. I also hope a mod can come in here soon and clean this up since it has gotten pretty unreasonable.

Edit: Thank you to the mod(s) that cleaned this thread up. Much appreciated!

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Okay buddy check my replays ive been paralyzed 5 turns in a row 8 turns out of 12 a guy thought i was capping got sludge wave poison and freeze dry freeze in the first 7 turns also because i rage quit because of my bad rng so shut your mother fucking mouth you fucking zoophile gallade fucker

Id add that Ice Tera is only used/usable on slightly offensive pokes, which gliscor isn't! It gives coverage mostly to electric types, and only because boltbeam is heat. Ice Tera type is Not so good because It gives the ways Not good Ice pure defensive type, being a bad thing

Id Even add that a good tean is Not one that avoids haxx well, it's one that is Not that affected by It. haxx is prob Not the issue of you being lowladd

 

[Finchinator]

we really speed running for the most posts deleted in a suspect thread ever, eh? Let’s take it down a few notches. Banned the clearly malicious dude.

 

[Soara]

Id Say dont ban Gliscor because there is proper counter play for one a fast mon can knock off toxic orb 2 use something like Murkrow or Grimmsnarl to Taunt or even Hatterene to bonce back spikes ok if gliscor is that bad with spikes then why does Glimmora Clod and H Samurott get away with setting up spikes like what gain would this meta get if Gliscor gets banned this Banning of 17 mons is literally out of hand and more than half of em are thanks to tera

 

[LovelyLuna]

Id Say dont ban Gliscor because there is proper counter play for one a fast mon can knock off toxic orb 2 use something like Murkrow or Grimmsnarl to Taunt

Relying on knocking Glisc on the switch in and ever suggesting Murkrow and Grimmsnarl in ou, just show how bad a pokemon is

ok if gliscor is that bad with spikes then why does Glimmora Clod and H Samurott get away with setting up spikes like what gain would this meta get if Gliscor gets banned this Banning of 17 mons is literally out of hand and more than half of em are thanks to tera

Longevity. Gliscor's longevity makes it very different from suicide leads. Also just because there are a lot of bans, doesn't mean Gliscor should stay, just Gamefreak being poor at balancing singles.

That being said, I am anti-ban, just some of these arguments I strongly disagree with

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Id Say dont ban Gliscor because there is proper counter play for one a fast mon can knock off toxic orb 2 use something like Murkrow or Grimmsnarl to Taunt or even Hatterene to bonce back spikes ok if gliscor is that bad with spikes then why does Glimmora Clod and H Samurott get away with setting up spikes like what gain would this meta get if Gliscor gets banned this Banning of 17 mons is literally out of hand and more than half of em are thanks to tera

Well i'd sAY it's Not because of tera But because of a playerbase that is convinced so. Not quite a lot of bans we're due to tera, And gliscor ban isn't, And imo the only tera-due ban is shedinja in natdex.

 

[LovelyLuna]

prankster can stop Gliscor cold since alot of sets require a setup/support move gliscor is just a Utility mon most of the time

It's less about how well they answer it, moreso how good they are in an ou setting, before screens was good in uu, Grimmsnarl was nu (Alolatales is a pokemon), and Murkrow is bad in every tier it's in. These pokemon are bad outside of taunting Gliscor, not to mention they don't like switching in on toxic and hazards anyway

 

[JunkoAJ]

It makes no sense to ban a Pokemon for setting up hazards when the problem is that another very clear problem is the reason why it's so problematic.

As much as I agree with the larger point made in this post, I do think this point is disingenuous as to why Gliscor is possibly more problematic then Gholdengo. Not only is it a fantastic spikes setter, it's not passive (like Ting-Lu or Clodsire) and it's not frail (like Samurott-H or Glimmora), these combined with it having Toxic and incredible passive recovery is what makes it potentially banworthy. It's flexible and can fit on a lot of team structures because it almost guarantees some kind of progress whether defensively or offensively.

 

[Finchinator]

A reminder:

No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss Gholdengo, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Gliscor is banworthy or not;

 

[Copland]

I also would have liked to see a Ghold ban first, but that's not what we were given, so I think we should at least attempt to have meaningful discussion about Gliscor in the Gliscor Suspect Thread. I think it'd be a mistake to vote No Ban on Gliscor just because you wanted to see Gholdengo gone first.

Even if Ghold were banned, Gliscor still exerts an enormous amount of pressure in the teambuilder. Most would-be counterplay folds to a single Toxic, which is easy for Gliscor to swing because it has Live-Any-One-Hit bulk + Tera. It forces a Gen 8-style meta where the best counterplay is to slow pivot into something that actually threatens Glisc--either that, or Gen 9 hyper offense that's happy to trade a Toxic on its threats for a dead Gliscor. Not all teams can afford these restrictions and often has to resort to stalemates, like Gen 8 Clef v. Toxapex. It's not a healthy meta dynamic for a defensive Pokémon to be this hard to switch into.

The metagame is under a tremendous amount of strain in general, which is evident by the rise of teambuilding extremes (HO + stall). Banning Gliscor would be a welcome pressure reliever and a great first step toward a healthier and more competitive meta.

 

[SandVeil10]

snip

I'm not a very good player and my knowledge on the meta is limited, but I would disagree with you on this. Gliscor can be judged on its own merits, even outside of Gholdengo supporting its hazard setting duties. In fact, many people on this thread have made compelling arguments (imo) about Gliscor being too much for the meta without attributing Gliscor's influence to Gholdengo's support.

I also think that Gliscor is an amazing Spike setter even outside of Dengo's influence. It's a bulky, durable Pokémon with an effective, reliable method of healing, as well as a typing that grants it useful immunities and resists while not having too many problematic weaknesses.

Its moveset is also great at pushing back mons who are vulnerable against EQ/Toxic/Knock Off, or who do not wish to become set-up fodder because of a slow U-turn from Gliscor giving safe entry to a powerful offensive threat, or because Gliscor ends up revealing SD+Facade/Knock Off.

All those mindgames, from the start of the game all the way to the end, give Gliscor plenty of opportunities to make progress either by setting Spikes or causing valuable disruption some other way, and it does it in a way that I feel is overbearing for the current meta. Though Dengo's support is more than useful for Gliscor, it's far from being Dengo-reliant in order to do what it does.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

gliscor is then just fine, you soin, you Go, you can deal damages as its best stat is 125, bRO sets hazards And is Not passive! Tinglu having higher attack is soooo passive I didn't knew! There is No prob With glisc as clefable p much contrôle It just fine.

 

[JunkoAJ]

gliscor is then just fine, you soin, you Go, you can deal damages as its best stat is 125, bRO sets hazards And is Not passive! Tinglu having higher attack is soooo passive I didn't knew! There is No prob With glisc as clefable p much contrôle It just fine.

Go on, now tell me what moves Ting-Lu clicks to do damage. Tell me what boosting moves Ting-Lu has, what coverage it has. Like are we playing the same game, Ting-Lu does not have as much active damage potential as Gliscor does, it's not even close.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I guess you don't get And don't want to get what i mean And i won't push i'm done arguing With stubborn people for today

 

[JunkoAJ]

I guess you don't get And don't want to get what i mean And i won't push i'm done arguing With stubborn people for today

You're refusing to acknowledge the fact that Gliscor is not just a passive "click spikes/toxic/protect and chill" mon, it can also SD and be an offensive threat on its own, I don't even think it should be banned like I've said but you have to actually think and realise that it doesn't just sit and passively win games.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Ah you actually talking about All sets it has? Yeah sorry But in the case of a sd.set you'd prefer Not use gliscor

 

[Over Thinker]

I am currently laddering to get suspect and if I get my vote I will be voting to not ban. Yeah gliscor can be annoying and is quite restrictive on team building but I don't think it's too restrictive. There are plenty of pokemon that either wall or counter gliscor. Clefable can take toxics and EQs pretty easily depending on the set, Dondozo can set up on it and threaten it after a few curses, Air ballon Gholdengo walls none Knock Off variants and Pokemon like Oggerpon-Wellspring and Enamorous can set-up on Gliscor if they have sub and in certain cases can sweep. Gliscor's main problem is that it rellies heavely on stalling with toxic and protect which can be taken advantage of by set up mons especially on leads situations because if Gliscor gets knocked or statused before it gets poisoned then it becomes almost useless which in most cases encourages Gliscor to protect which can be taken advantage of. I think that the main thing that makes Gliscor problematic is its ability to set spikes alongisde toxic stalling and while I do think it has made the meta problematic I believe that the cause is Gholdengo rather than Gliscor. I think that if hazards weren't as broken as they are now, Gliscor's spikes set wouldn't be as problematic. Even if Gliscor gets banned it won't solve the hazards problem since other Pokemon like Samurott-H and Ting-Lu will take its place as spike setters. Sure they can't toxic stall like Gliscor but they each have their own advantages over Gliscor. Ultimately I believe Gliscor is just something the meta has to adapt around.

 

[Chaabi]

There are plenty of pokemon that either wall or counter gliscor. Clefable can take toxics and EQs pretty easily depending on the set, Dondozo can set up on it and threaten it after a few curses, Air ballon Gholdengo walls none Knock Off variants and Pokemon like Oggerpon-Wellspring and Enamorous can set-up on Gliscor if they have sub and in certain cases can sweep.

This is only a half truth really, none of those Pokémon want to switch into Gliscor with maybe the exception of Balloon Ghold, which doesn't like SD sets that play EQ + Knock (which I believe is almost always better than Facade) so it's not even close to a guarenteed answer. Clefable doesn't do much outside of a potential Ice Beam, which it struggles to fit in its moveset, Dondozo hates switching into a Knock Off and can be easily forced to Rest because of Toxic, putting it in unfavorable positions, Waterpon and Enamorus can win a duel sure, but have limited longevity and don't want to switch into a Toxic, thus limiting their opportunities.

Gliscor's main problem is that it rellies heavely on stalling with toxic and protect which can be taken advantage of by set up mons especially on leads situations because if Gliscor gets knocked or statused before it gets poisoned then it becomes almost useless which in most cases encourages Gliscor to protect which can be taken advantage of.

It's way harder to apply this than just saying it, it can prove difficult getting in this position vs Gliscor, you mention the lead situation, but there are multiple scenarios where you really don't want to setup at the start, it may be because the opposing team isn't chipped enough for your mon to do the work its supposed to, or what if you don't want to Sub because you need HP for the other threats?
Also, Gliscor is basically not getting Knocked or Statused, as it'll probably never switch against mons that are capable or hindering it like this, that or it'll just use Protect to guarentee the Toxic Orb, taking advantage of that would only be in a one-on-one, which I already explained why this is not as easy of a decision as it sounds.

Even if Gliscor gets banned it won't solve the hazards problem since other Pokemon like Samurott-H and Ting-Lu will take its place as spike setters. Sure they can't toxic stall like Gliscor but they each have their own advantages over Gliscor.

While I do think Spikes would still be an issue, it would be to a lesser extent, those pokemon are great sure, but have obvious flaws, the former being frail without being blazing fast in a really fast-paced metagame, and the latter being easier to play around because every damage it takes will stick around, not to mention both of those aren't immune to Spikes either, they simply don't get as much switch-in opportunities as Gliscor does.
And the "But X thing would be a problem if Y is banned" is not really valid, if Y should be banned and X becomes a problem because of it, simply ban X too, 0 problem is always better than 2 problems.

I firmly believe Gliscor puts the meta in a stranglehold (independently from The One Who Shall Not Be Named), forcing players into very limited answers or very extreme structures such as Hyper Offense, banning Gliscor is, I think, a step in the right direction to remove some of that pressure, both in the builder and in actual games.

 

[viivian]

i have yet to start laddering but when i get reqs i will be voting ban on gliscor. i could see it returning depending on what the indigo disk has in store for OU (a defog TM would be really nice to have!) but the time will come soon. right now i think gliscor has absolutely no business being in this metagame.

for one, it has a wide selection of utility moves it can run on each of its sets that makes reliably switching in and/or checking it pretty much impossible. knock off, u-turn, spikes, toxic, taunt and swords dance are all seen on gliscor (of varying frequency) and its also important to note that all of these moves are key in crippling at least one switch-in you could even possibly name. great tusk hates getting hit by toxic, flying types like zapdos and moltres hate taking a knock off or toxic, taunt cripples corviknight, swords dance can take advantage of pokemon who typically switch into gliscor (such as air balloon gholdengo) and it can even u-turn on pokemon who would otherwise wall or threaten it. even with all these tools at its disposal i wouldnt consider it to be banworthy, but then they gave gliscor spikes after it came back, and i think that in tandem with everything i mentioned above pushes it over the edge.

even setting aside the serious hazard problem the meta has had throughout the generation, giving spikes to gliscor is dumb as hell to begin with. in the past, spikers have typically had trouble staying alive throughout longer games due to lack of recovery and/or a susceptibility to hazards, and the ones that didnt were usually very passive and easy to take advantage of...or all of the above if your name is forretress. but gliscor suffers from exactly zero of those drawbacks. its immune to spikes and toxic spikes, poison heal completely negates stealth rock chip, it still sticks around for a long time thanks to poison heal + protect even without roost, and as i mentioned earlier it has an endless amount of options at its disposal to fuck over anything and everything that tries to switch in. all of these traits allows gliscor to outlive all viable hazard removers in the tier and can even cripple them with knock off/toxic as they switch in, with the only exception being corviknight who has its own struggles as a defogger. with all of this in mind, i think going after gliscor instead of gholdengo was a very smart move from the OU council. because hazard stacking teams will just move onto other spikes setters instead of gliscor, yes, but those spikers will never do the same things it did. in fact, i dare you to name a single hazard setter that even comes close to having the combination of progress-making and longevity as gliscor. glimmora is exclusively used as a hazard setter on HO teams, clodsire is very bulky but its rare and is comdeically easy to take advantage of, samurott-H is very frail and has no recovery which makes it worse as spiker in longer games, garchomp isnt very common and also has no recovery, ting-lu once again has no recovery and can be taken advantage of, etc etc. gliscor suffers from exactly none of these shortcomings, hence why its miles above all of them as a spiker aside from maybe glimmora and samurott-H on hyper offense builds. not to mention it can run other options such as SD to get the jump on switch-ins to the spikes set and completely flip its already limited pool of counters on their heads.

TLDR: gliscor is extremely broken as a spiker, to say nothing of its utility and flexibility beyond endlessly setting spikes every game.

 

[TCTphantom]

If I get reqs, I will be voting BAN on Gliscor.

A lot of people have brought up the fact that Spikes have been no stranger to meta issues in the tier. We have had discussions around hazards for a while now. Ting Lu and Hamurott are exceptionally consistent spikes setters too. The difference between the two is Gliscor's longevity and ability to keep momentum. Ting Lu despite being a fantastic setter is not the best at forcing its advantage and can kind of just sit there sometimes. Hamurott conversely can apply plenty of pressure with Ceaseless Edge, Knock Off, and Aqua Cutter/Razor Shell, but its fraily outside of vest sets limit even the amount it can pressure the opponent's team.

Gliscor circumvents that as the ultimate support pokemon. This thing just never dies. It only takes rocks and Poison Heal lets it recover that off quickly. Knock Off and U turn make outright countering Gliscor in a 1 v 1 a fools errand. Sure, that Manaphy can OHKO it if it comes in, but Gliscor's chip damage between Knock Off and the hazards it sets means this is not going to last forever. Just a set of EQ/Knock Off/Protect/Spikes puts so much pressure on the other team. Boots are off the table if your hazard removal mon is knocked off.

I do not want to talk about the gholden elephant in the room, so all I will say is it did cause me to think about this particular mon a lot. The crux of why I think we need to ban Gliscor is even without that Gholden elephant, hazard removal is trash. We have a significant lack of good spinners and defoggers in the tier right now. Dexit hit this hard, killing off Defog users like Torn T, Zapdos, Lando T, and Gliscor itself. Looking through our Defoggers, we have Corv, Galaran Weezing, Mandibuzz, Conkelldurr for some reason, Scizor, and Kleavor as ones that have a decent shot of OU usage. The issue is, all of these hazard removers have crippling flaws. They either lose way too much momentum for faster teams or have issues coming in to defog reliably on their own. They also have a poor matchup into Gliscor as a hazards setter, who can outlast most of them. Rapid Spin isnt much better outside of Tusk. Court Change is alright, but it really doesn't "fix" the issues of hazards. Would banning Gliscor fix the issue of Hazards? Honestly, I don't even know for sure. Even with the Gholden Elephant gone, I don't know if the issue can be fixed until we get actually good removal for Spikes. What I do know is that it would help. As problematic as hazards have been, Gliscor pushes it to a fever pitch.

This isn't even accounting for Gliscor's SD sets, many of which beat its traditional counters and are difficult to deal with in their own right. Even if SD Gliscor wasn't a factor, I would still be leaning Ban. With it in the mix, its even more clear cut. I think the influence it has on the tier is gross and I would prefer it gone.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

There are plenty of pokemon that either wall or counter gliscor. Clefable can take toxics and EQs pretty easily depending on the set, Dondozo can set up on it and threaten it after a few curses, Air ballon Gholdengo walls none Knock Off variants and Pokemon like Oggerpon-Wellspring and Enamorous can set-up on Gliscor if they have sub and in certain cases can sweep.

Its a support pokemon... ofc there are gonna be more checks and counters than smth like chi yu, zama-c, chien pao, or smth like zygarde-50% in past gens.

Even then clefable is spikes fother unless its a CM variant, dondozo can be toxic'ed and forced to rest which is easily taken advantage of, air balloon gholdengo relies on keeping the balloon up which isnt the most consistent thing in the world and if its knock off then ur out of luck. Ogrepon-wellspring and enamorus can estup with SD and sub but sub enamorus is only being used cuz it can fuck gliscor up with it.

Gliscor's main problem is that it rellies heavely on stalling with toxic and protect which can be taken advantage of by set up mons especially on leads situations because if Gliscor gets knocked or statused before it gets poisoned then it becomes almost useless which in most cases encourages Gliscor to protect which can be taken advantage of

What if they lead smth else? Gliscor doesnt have to be in the lead position to get the toxic orb off... you can just bring it in on a pokemon like gholdengo if ur sp. def or a mon like zama-h, amoonguss, corv, def zapdos, slowking-g without ice beam or surf, etc.

The opponent has to misplay with it or you have to outplay them badly to get the toxic orb knocked off

I believe that the cause is Gholdengo rather than Gliscor. I think that if hazards weren't as broken as they are now, Gliscor's spikes set wouldn't be as problematic

The test is about gliscor and gliscor only. Why are we going "well gholdengo is the problem! DUH, lets vote no ban and hope we vote ban there". What if then say "well gholdengo isnt the problem its kingambit"..... Nothing is ever going to get done then

Even if Gliscor gets banned it won't solve the hazards problem since other Pokemon like Samurott-H and Ting-Lu will take its place as spike setters

"why should we try if it wont fix the problem" samu-h and ting lu are much worse at forcing progress compared to gliscor... you have counterplay to it... at least better counterplay than gliscor. We should focus on gliscor now instead of hoping "well we are going to ban ghold, gliscor isnt gonna be broken" We have 1 deffoger anyway... and great tusk is just gonna eat a toxic (any set without ice spinner is cooked anyway). Sure corv helps but its not like every team can run it.