Heart Gold | Soul Silver In-Game Tier List

[Kikuichimonji]

I think encounter rates are a pretty big deal, because it slows you down significantly to keep looking for Pokémon with, say, 1% encounter rates, especially if they do only have one good ability (e.g. Marill). There's always the possibility you'll get lucky, but we don't take RNG blessing into account in FE debates, though to be fair we have averages there.

From my post #35 in this thread:

I feel like encounter rate is something that is kind of hard to factor into tiering decisions. I think one of the best examples would be legendaries like Suicune and Raikou. On one hand, they are practically impossible to obtain, and going out of your way to find one would be a crazy. On the other hand, if one happens to show up, and if you happen to catch it just by lobbing a Fast Ball at it, it instantly becomes one of the best members of your team. A less extreme example would be Ralts in RS: I'll take one if happen to encounter it along the way, but I won't spend too long looking for one if I don't.

Just because a Pokemon has a 1% encounter rate doesn't mean that I need "keep looking for it." If I happen to encounter it, awesome. If I don't, then I can skip past it without having wasted any time (except the time spent fleeing from random encounters that I could have used a Repel to get past).

 

[Mattman324]

Kanto (Not in Order)
- Electabuzz

I'm not sure on this. Suberban Area isn't to expensive, and you have Magmar up there, so I think Electabuzz should be put on the list, just with a tier docking.

Also, I think I might be the only person here who believes Cyndaquil should NOT be in the uber gamebreaker tier. It's not the best starter like in GSC, and it gets only Focus Blast, Solarbeam, and Swift as side special moves.

So it does this.

Obtained at the start of the game: Duh.

Can OHKO enemies off the bat: Not until level 10. And later on, it gets no special fire moves without TMs until the point where you should be around the ice or dragon gym.

Takes 1 damage from enemies: No, it has pretty bad defenses.

It learns every possible HM: Cut, Strength, Rock Smash, Rock Climb. None of which should be used on it.

Heals itself automatically: Doesn't get any form of healing.

Has a neat ability: As someone else put it, ingame if you are in Blaze range, you aren't going to be using Fire attacks, because they are NVE.

 

[Sceats]

Question about Nidoking: when do you get the Moon Stone? It doesn't seem like Nidoking is fully reliant on disposable TMs. Surf, Fire Blast, and Thunder are all decent enough attacks that he could do without Dig.

Once you get surf it can be found in ruins of alph.

 

[Afti]

I'm not sure on this. Suberban Area isn't to expensive, and you have Magmar up there, so I think Electabuzz should be put on the list, just with a tier docking.

Magmar is in the Burnt Tower.

Cyndaquil isn't as good as Totodile now, and it's really gone down in power. But it's still a starter with good stats, a considerable movepool, and a typing that's of use in several Gyms.

I used Fearow on my runthrough, and it really starts to dwindle quickly. Movepool is sparse in coverage and low BP. (no Drill Peck until you're well into Kanto)

U-Turn and Return could improve it, but there are better users ingame, and U-Turn is something you want to save for after you finish the ingame runthrough anyway.

I expect Togetic would outclass it, and I KNOW Noctowl does from my Japanese version runthrough; it has less raw power, but a better movepool (Confusion/Air Slash/Hypnosis/Reflect is surprisingly workable) and the ability to actually take hits fairly well, with 100 base HP, 96 base SpD, and Reflect for physical hits. Fearow doesn't get a lot of OHKOs later on, but it doesn't have the defenses to be whittling away at your foes.

 

[jumpluff]

@Kikuichimonji: That's true, I suppose, but I still feel that it's relevant to tiering. Some people tend to decide their teams before they play (I did, which is why I have that mindset), and if you catch a 1%er easily, then you're 'RNG blessed', especially if the place is somewhat out of the way (such as Mt. Mortar, though Mt. Mortar has a lot of items that are worth diverging from the plot to find). Part of the significance I also place on encounter rates can be attributed a bit to Occam's razor. (I know it isn't a perfect application, but the principle is there at the root of it.) I suppose it depends partially on the 'point' of the tier list. Hey, CM, this is like warpskip/non-warpskip all over again!

(There are Suicune plot points in Kanto, so I'm assuming you have to catch it in Kanto now, so let's substitute Entei over Suicune. :P)

 

[FSLink]

Gonna have to say, I currently used Butterfree for the start of my HG file, and he's just ridiculous in-game. A near-accurate Sleep Powder thanks to Compound Eyes seriously does wonders. It's also very useful for catching Pokemon since it's one of the earliest Pokemon who can inflict status in Heart Gold. And Confusion/Psybeam does great against the earlier gyms. Haven't gotten farther than the 8th gym so I have no idea how it'll fare in the E4 and Kanto, but Sleep Powder is really useful.

But yeah, Soul Silver Butterfree probably isn't as good since you can only catch Caterpie in National Park at a higher level and can't access the powders while evolving or having to breed it (which isn't too difficult I guess considering Ditto isn't very hard to get either).

 

[DDRMaster]

But yeah, Soul Silver Butterfree probably isn't as good since you can only catch Caterpie in National Park at a higher level and can't access the powders while evolving or having to breed it (which isn't too difficult I guess considering Ditto isn't very hard to get either).

You can get Butterfree in the Bug Catching contest as well and it will be Lv.12 to 15 which isn't bad at Goldenrod.

On Electabuzz, I assumed we weren't including Pokewalker Pokemon since Ponyta and Pikachu are also included in the Kanto teir. If we are including them, then there's a chance Kangaskan could be moved to Top since you can get it at the beginning of the game at Lv. 8 and have a 43.75% chance to get one with Scrappy on your first time through (since there's a 50% chance it'll choose Kangaskan over Doduo, you're all but guarenteed 3 Kangaskan with 150w, and there's a 1/8 chance that all 3 will have Early Bird). It seems like a much better way to catch Kangaskan than the Safari Zone to me. Also, I think you can get a Lv.15 Espeon/Umbreon easily if you use the Pokewalker.

 

[Mattman324]

I used Fearow on my runthrough, and it really starts to dwindle quickly. Movepool is sparse in coverage and low BP. (no Drill Peck until you're well into Kanto)

Still, it outranks most other Normal/Flyings.

PIDGEOT: It's faster with higher attack. You get it 16 levels earlier. Pidgeot's first relyable Flying attack (Aside from the obvious Fly, because Fearow gets that if you argue that it helps) is at level 38, unless you want to be EVEN WEAKER for most of the game.

FARFETCH'D: All it's stats are better, and Farfy should only be used as an HM slave.

DODRIO: That I know of, Dodrio is only gotten right before the Elite Four at earliest, when you are training on Rock/Ground types.

NOCTOWL: Personally, I wouldn't use Noctowl. Sure, it has a decent Special attack, and can take hits, and has Hypnosis, but so does Stantler (Except it's his attack stat, and it's much better).

SWELLOW: Post Elite Four.

STARAPTOR: Post Elite Four.

CHATOT: Post Elite four.

TOGEKISS: Ok, you got me here. Togekiss absolutely destroys Fearow in usefulness.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Can we assume Spearow gets to come at level 20 at Goldenrod with the 50% trade exp bonus? I don't recall what TM you need to use it to get (it was the all-but-useless Nightmare TM in GSC), but if it's something useless, then keeping Spearow around to fight would probably be a better use of it.

Cyndaquil isn't as good as Totodile now, and it's really gone down in power.

I don't think that Cyndaquil has really gone down in power. It no longer learns Thunderpunch, and Flame Wheel is now physical, but it learns attacks much earlier. Flame Wheel at level 20, Swift (now special) at level 31, Lava Plume at level 35, and Flamethrower 42. In GSC, Flame Wheel didn't come until level 31, Flamethrower came at level 60, and Swift was physical and came at level 45. It essentially learns a better version of GSC's Flame Wheel four levels later than it did previously, and you get a nice physical STAB to tide you over until then. Perhaps most significant is that Fire Blast can be bought at the department store for a ridiculously cheap sum of 5500p, while in GSC Fire Blast cost 5500 coins.

The only way that Cyndaquil has gotten worse is not having access to Thunderpunch. The issue of Flame Wheel versus Lava Plume is debatable, but I'd argue that waiting four more levels to learn attack with 33% more base power is worth it. In every other way (getting Flamethrower 18 levels earlier, and realistically getting Fire Blast before the third gym), it has gotten better.

 

[DDRMaster]

You need Kenya to get Rest and you can get it in the Goldenrod/Veilstone Game Corner so it's not that important.

You can get a level 8 Doduo from the first Pokewalker course as well.

Edit: You can also get it in the Rocky Beach area of the Safari Zone but I'm fairly certain you can't get to that area until you start the second test and by that point you won't have it for Bugsy or Chuck which are really the only times you'd use a Flying-type besides against Koga and Bruno.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I'm still putting up that petition for a raise in Chinchou's tier. My reasons can be found on page 2.

I used pidgeot and I gotta say that for the early part of the game it sucks bad. It got a little better when I taught it fly though. Also Featherdance is a very useful move for opponents like bruno. First hand expirience baby. To bad a black cat crosses my path every minute of every day. Bad Luck.... FTW.

I liked using cyndaquil Cause once I got blast burn for it I just went awol on everything that breathed but Cyndaquil suffered for me. I've been stuck with the same moveset all game. I'll be happy when I teach it Eruption. Mabye I'll get rid of blast burn but I don't know. It's got powerful Sp. Atk but it doesn't have a very good movepoll to exploit it.

 

[pastel]

I also would like to say that lapras should get to upper mid.
He is tough, and you obtain laras at a high level, however, the place where you get it, is way to advanced in the game to be considered high.

Also, larvitar, you catch it at Mt. Silver, when you have almost cleared the whole game, whats the point of having it in upper mid? Lower Mid, or low would be better choices for him.

 

[Rabbit]

You can get Larvitars at level 17 in the Safari Zone once you get access to the region-shifty thing (I believe the earliest this can happen is after you help Amphy at the lighthouse). They're difficult to catch and find but not impossible - I caught four in an hour and saw way more than that. By some lovely coincidence, three of them had at least one 31 IV and the last had a great spread.

EDIT: Come to think of it, you might not even need the region shifter. Larvitars are in the Mountain region, but I don't remember if the Safari Zone starts with one.

 

[DDRMaster]

You can get Larvitars at level 17 in the Safari Zone once you get access to the region-shifty thing (I believe the earliest this can happen is after you help Amphy at the lighthouse). They're difficult to catch and find but not impossible - I caught four in an hour and saw way more than that. By some lovely coincidence, three of them had at least one 31 IV and the last had a great spread.

EDIT: Come to think of it, you might not even need the region shifter. Larvitars are in the Mountain region, but I don't remember if the Safari Zone starts with one.

Mountain is in the first six but you need to help Amphy before you can get into the Safari Zone at all since I'm sure I couldn't go there when I first got to Cianwood but I went there after I beat Jasmine.

 

[Morm]

The pokewalker pokemon cannot be ignored on this. I got nidoran M like first thing in the game thanks to pokewalker. I know it was mentioned at the bottom of the first page, but this should count.

Still not convinced? Ask jumpman how far he progressed in-game and what pokemon he got to go along with his starter. If I recall, superluck murkrow and elekid...if you're desperate, you can evolve that elekid by like level 2 if you just walk around like an idiot.

Also Heal bell/milk drink/strength/zen headbutt on miltank is glorious with scrappy nature. It's 100 base speed and bulk it incredible in-game for not potion hogging and for being able to hammer things of lower level without taking crap damage.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

I'm still putting up that petition for a raise in Chinchou's tier. My reasons can be found on page 2.

Chinchou is, like Caterpie, a Pokemon that I would justify as being good by comparing it to Chikorita. Laturn is basically a Meganium (tank with mediocre attack stats) with a much better movepool. Chinchou also comes around Morty, which is around the time that Chikorita stops lagging behind everything else in terms of usefulness.

The only gripe is that the 7 levels you need to raise Chinchou to get it to evolve, which can be quite arduous. Its stats are on par with a tier 1 starter's, and having those stats at level 26 hurts it a lot. Having access to Surf and Thunder right off the bat does help things a bit.

I'd put Chinchou a tier below Chikorita for the fact that it doesn't actually become that great until level 27.

I also would like to say that lapras should get to upper mid.
He is tough, and you obtain laras at a high level, however, the place where you get it, is way to advanced in the game to be considered high.

You can get Lapras right after beating Morty. Obtaining it does require traveling off the beaten path, but passing through the tile that Sudowoodu occupied significantly expedites the process. The trip shouldn't take too long if you use repels, after you get to the Sudowoodo tile you're basically just traveling from Violet to Union Cave. Considering how many things it should be able to one-shot with Surf right off the bat, the time investment should pay for itself. Ice Beam at level 32 is very nice, ice attacks are great and it always feels like not enough things learn them. (A lot of things learn Blizzard, but a 70% accurate attack with 5 PP is kind of underwhelming.)

 

[Phadunk]

The pokewalker pokemon cannot be ignored on this. I got nidoran M like first thing in the game thanks to pokewalker. I know it was mentioned at the bottom of the first page, but this should count.

Still not convinced? Ask jumpman how far he progressed in-game and what pokemon he got to go along with his starter. If I recall, superluck murkrow and elekid...if you're desperate, you can evolve that elekid by like level 2 if you just walk around like an idiot.

Also Heal bell/milk drink/strength/zen headbutt on miltank is glorious with scrappy nature. It's 100 base speed and bulk it incredible in-game for not potion hogging and for being able to hammer things of lower level without taking crap damage.

you dont evolve elekid by happiness. lv 30 to electabuzz. fyi.

i do agree on pokewalker pokemon though.. plenty of solid pokes are easily caught in the first 2 routes.. open instantly.. walk a few feet.. get more routes with pokemon not normally seen for a long while.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

There is no way that Onix should even be in the upper half of the list, let alone the top. I never realized until now how much it sucks. I'd always assumed that, due to not evolving, it would be slightly better than Geodude, but it's actually far worse. It has better defenses and speed than Geodude, but its base attack is 45 (to Geodude's 80). 45 base attack is already a bit on the low side in the early game (it's worse than all of the starters), and having that attack stat for the entire game is absolutely horrid. Onix also has a terrible movepool as well. Rock Throw and Rock Tomb are 50 power attacks with 90% and 80% accuracy, and they are your only STABs until level 49 when you finally get Stone Edge. Slam (level 25) is just bad due to being 75% accurate and Iron Tail (level 38) is another case of too little too late. It's also worth mentioning that Onix never learns a ground attack. There is zero reason to use Onix, especially considering that Geodude is available at the same time. Even if Geodude never evolved, it would still be better than Onix. Onix is definitely bottom-tier material. It's in league with Ledyba and Spinarak when it comes to usefulness.

 

[KurashiDragon]

That was one of the things I thought sucked about Chinchou. It's hard to train it up those levels. I just always had a hard time. However its a little easier on the fact that your in the sea to train it. Just give it thunder and go awol on everything there. Garuntee major levelage.

Kikuichinomji (What does your name mean anyways? It's hard to spell.)
I'm pretty sure they were thinking in terms of evolution when placing onix. Steelix is definatally something worth using. However mabye it would be bottom tier if you had no way of evolving it simply cause you have no wifi but if you do its where it should be.

 

[Sceats]

rant about onix

Yeah, i totally i agree that onix has no place being anywhere near top, however it does have one advantage over geodude, and thats that it gets a 50% experience boost due to it being traded that gives it the edge if you plan to only use it for the first 3 gyms.

 

[PK Gaming]

Dude whats wrong with a 100% accurate accuracy lowering move off of something bulky? Also It can use headbut so not all of its moves are grass typed. 3/8 gyms and all of the cave and water areas meganium is a mofo at, aswell as its doing great facing up to the kanto gyms so dont just assume its useless.

So sand attack is good now?
Flash is terrible and having to resort to it is sad. Esoecially in a game where your expected to OHKO/2HKO a good amount of the opposition. Headbutt on Meganium still doesn't help its woefully bad position and sometimes your better of using her grass STAB.

3/8?

No, she is merely decent at 3 and terrible in 5. She is a disgrace of a starter.

 

[IOS]

Ok, so at the moment, Togepi is way, way too low.

The amount of training he needs to be good is almost non existant. As a matter of fact, I recorded rough records of his battles during Route 32, and he didn't even participate in all of them.

Battle 1: Lvl 6 Wooper. Switched out first turn. Lvl 3
Battle 2: Lvl 4 Ekans. 2RKO, Lvl 4
Battle 3: See battle 1, Lvl 4
Battle 4: Trainer, Lvl 8 Nidoran. 4RKO, Lvl 6
Battle 5: Lvl 6 Wooper. 3RKO, Lvl 6
Battle 6: Trainer, Lvl 9 Nidoran. Switched out first turn (although he probably could have handled it), Lvl 7
Battle 7: Lvl 4 Ekans. ORKO, Lvl 7
Battle 8: Lvl 6 Bellsprout. 2RKO, Lvl 7
Battle 9: Trainer, Lvl 10 Wooper. Switched out first turn, Lvl 8
Battle 10: Lvl 4 Zubat. ORKO, Lvl 8
Battle 11: Lvl 6 Wooper. 2RKO, Lvl 8
Battle 12: Ekans. ORKO, Lvl 9
Battle 13: Wooper. 2RKO, Lvl 9
Battle 14: Trainer: Lvl 10 Goldeen. 4RKO, Lvl 10
Battle 15: Poliwagx2, 2RKO, Lvl 11

15 battles later that didn't involve me going out of my way, and he's already Level 11. Then I get to the Dark Cave where he initially 2RKOs everything (only 3RKOing a trainer's Onix I believe), and takes miniscule damage from everything. By the end of the cave, he was ORKOing most wild Pokemon. Extrasensory kicks enough ass to make training Togepi a breeze. Certainly more then any Pokemon coming later in the game (I'd actually say any Pokemon after around the fourth gym that doesn't come at a reasonable level is a liability).

I think he belongs in around Upper Upper Mid. I'm willing to bet he's MUCH easier to train then somebody like Gastly, Zubat, or Abra who don't get a decent attacking move for ages. I think I'll catch one of the above Pokemon, and compare their training experiences.

EDIT: Zubat caught at Level 5 in Union Cave. Battles will be done on Route 33.

Battle 1: Lvl 7 Ekans. Its skill prevented Zubat from switching out, so it died. Judging by the amount of damage Leech Life was doing though, it was probably going to run out of PP before Ekans died. Lvl 5
Battle 2: Lvl 6 Ratatta. Switched out first turn. Lvl 5
Battle 3: Lvl 6 Ratatta. Switched out first turn. Lvl 5

Went to Union Cave for a bit

Battle 4: Lvl 6 Geodude. Played through the battle just for kicks. Ran out of PP for Leech Life before Geodude died. Switched out.
Battle 5: Lvl 6 Ratatta. Switched out after almost dying. Lvl 6
Battle 6: Lvl 7 Zubat (lol). Switched out first turn. Lvl 6

Around this time I looked up when Zubat learns a new move. That would be Lvl 9, Astonish.

At this point I stopped training Zubat.

tldr: Togepi gains exp like a madman, has a kickass move right off the bat, and requires one route of normal play to be on par with the rest of the team.

Upper Upper Mid this guy.

Note: Togepi hatched before Route 32 due to visiting the Ruins of Alph beforehand.

 

[Bologo]

I agree with Togepi being too low. Extrasensory is very strong in the first part of the game, and it's not exactly hard to hatch the egg since Togepi is only 2560 steps and the running shoes exist now. Also, such a high amount of PP on an 80 BP move is awesome. Togepi is basically able to rip through a lot of the Team Rocket members with Extrasensory, in addition to the many Poison pokemon that trainers have. When I used it, I unfortunately got a Hustle Togepi, but I used it to my advantage and taught it Headbutt, which was quite strong for the first part of the game, essentially getting double STAB, which is deadly even off of 20 base attack. Also, Extrasensory isn't hindered by this, since only physical attacks get their accuracy reduced, special attacks stay the same (unless I'm ridiculously lucky, since Extrasensory never missed once). Togepi is basically the reason I was able to beat the hell out of Morty's gym without even losing a pokemon; my bro didn't use Togepi against that gym and it was a lot harder for him since Gengar's STAB Shadow Ball is ridiculous.

I will admit, Togepi is a bit of a pain to evolve. However, it depends on whether you want to do time manipulation on the DS with the haircut bros and evolve him very early, or whether you want to let him level up and evolve on his own (I think it would take until level 25 or so). Levelling Togepi up is incredibly easy, as he's in the "fast" group, which by far levels up the fastest out of all of the experience groups (erratic is way too slow at the beginning and fluctuating becomes a HUGE pain after about level 36).

While he's probably not on the level of something like Totodile since hatching him does eat up time, I agree with IOS that he should be in Upper Upper Mid.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

If you're going to assume Togepi before Union Cave, you need to factor in the time it takes to hatch. Every single playthrough I've done has involved Togepi coming around Goldenrod, where the median level is somewhere around 14-15.

 

[Diana]

My Togepi evolved at level 20 and my friend's at level 19, both with no haircuts...

I have to say Upper Upper Mid there too. It wanes a little later but is really nice for a good portion of the game.