Aegislash

[Soul Fly]

Shadow Ball does the same damage to Azumarill (I'm assuming that's who you meant) and Azumarill doesn't even check it that great let alone be a common switch in. And it has to play around Kings Shield
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And honestly Head Smash is way better at getting rid of Mandi

Why would I use head smash when I can easily get a STAB move which does the same job, is more consistent, has no recoil (aegi doesn't sport any recovery whatsoever), doesn't miss, and can also hit all the fairies, and also doesn't leave me a sitting duck against TTar (which is the case when I'm using Head Smash, and yes I know Sandstorm boosts SDef but I'm talking about lure value+counterchecking here)? none of which head smash can achieve? Especially since you are not invested physically and Mandibuzz IS invested in Def?
And by Azu I was hinting at the lack of prediction factor removed by doing that since Azu easily soaks up Iron head and doesn't give two shits about sacred sword....

 

[Martin]

Why would I use head smash when I can easily get a STAB move which does the same job, is more consistent, has no recoil (aegi doesn't sport any recovery whatsoever), doesn't miss, and can also hit all the fairies, and also doesn't leave me a sitting duck against TTar (which is the case when I'm using Head Smash, and yes I know Sandstorm boosts SDef but I'm talking about lure value+counterchecking here)? none of which head smash can achieve? Especially since you are not invested physically and Mandibuzz IS invested in Def?
And by Azu I was hinting at the lack of prediction factor removed by doing that since Azu easily soaks up Iron head and doesn't give two shits about sacred sword....

Before I start, just let me make it clear that I checked The CRUMBLER's EVs and it does invest in attack, so I will use what I saw to make my points.

most users will carry Sacred Sword or Iron Had: both which deal with Tyranitar, making the point about it moot.

About Azu, you call this soaking it up?: 244 Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 175-207 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. I got Azu's EVs from this thread. That is NOT soaking Iron Head up. If you insist on the max HP EVs, then here they are: 244 Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. I think that a 1.2% chance not to 2HKO after SR with max HP EVs is enough to justify why Flash Canon is not needed for Azu.

As for Mandi, 244 Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 252-298 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery compared to 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mandibuzz: 166-196 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery is a clear reason to run Head Smash over Flash Cannon to deal with it.

Why would I use head smash when I can easily get a STAB move which does the same job, is more consistent, has no recoil (aegi doesn't sport any recovery whatsoever), doesn't miss, and can also hit all the fairies, and also doesn't leave me a sitting duck against TTar (which is the case when I'm using Head Smash, and yes I know Sandstorm boosts SDef but I'm talking about lure value+counterchecking here)? none of which head smash can achieve? Especially since you are not invested physically and Mandibuzz IS invested in Def?
And by Azu I was hinting at the lack of prediction factor removed by doing that since Azu easily soaks up Iron head and doesn't give two shits about sacred sword....

(yes I know same post, but it saves time)

Your statement is false as a: your point about recovery is incorrect as you could be running some random rest, b: T-Tar is dealt with by the other moves on the set, c: you do invest in Attack, letting you KO standard Mandi before SR and after Leftovers recovery with Head Smash, d: Azu doesn't soak up about Iron Head and e: most other fairies are hit harder by Iron Head due to them generally having higher Spec. Def.

 

[Soul Fly]

Before I start, just let me make it clear that I checked The CRUMBLER's EVs and it does invest in attack, so I will use what I saw to make my points.

1. I'm my last post I'm talking about the tank set which my earlier quoter countered on.. GO BACK READ AGAIN he used the Tank set EVs for calc'ing

2. I know Sacred Sword/Iron Head do more damage (-_-), I'm talking purely about flash cannon v/s head smash. '-_-. Go read up what luring means.
3. Flash cannon has higher damage output than Iron head on Azumarill on the tank set, this is fact.

Your statement is false as a: your point about recovery is incorrect as you could be running some random rest

What. (goes back checks both sets again, as expected finds no mention of rest) yes please go run rest on your aegislash, what an excellent move.

I won't even bother replying to anything else because I don't think we're anywhere on the same page. What are you even trying to say? Everyone knows Iron head/Sacred sword are good moves. And everyone knows fairies are better on special defense.

 

[Martin]

1. I'm my last post I'm talking about the tank set which my earlier quoter countered on.. GO BACK READ AGAIN he used the Tank set EVs for calc'ing

2. I know Sacred Sword/Iron Head do more damage (-_-), I'm talking purely about flash cannon v/s head smash. '-_-. Go read up what luring means.
3. Flash cannon has higher damage output than Iron head on Azumarill on the tank set, this is fact.


What. (goes back checks both sets again, as expected finds no mention of rest) yes please go run rest on your aegislash, what an excellent move.

I don't think we're anywhere on the same page. What are you even trying to say? Everyone knows Iron head/Sacred sword are good moves. And everyone knows fairies are better on special defense.

• about the rest point, I was just mentioning it as early in X/Y's life i saw a random rest set (don't ask..., I don't know what he/she was thinking)
• The thing is that having an alternative move for something that does the job better than said alternate move is kinda pointless, and somehow I don't think that someone would switch a Tyranitar directly into an Aegislash as it is.
• I've looked through the Azu analysis and I see no set called "tank" or "[something] tank". I was basing the calc around the bulkiest non-AV set (to make it fair for Flash Canon), which was CB, and if it is already 2HKOd most of the time (against max HP) there is no point taking up another moveslot to deal a little more damage to it.

 

[Soul Fly]

TANK AEGISLASH
ffs

• I've looked through the Azu analysis and I see no set called "tank" or "[something] tank"..... (sic)

TANK AEGISLASH ffs.

TTar is an excellent switch in for Shadow Ball spam and can immediately threaten with EQ/Fire Blast/Crunch/Pursuit... by that logic no one is ever switching in anything at Hydreigon ever...

Okay I'm done here. I just wanted to make a fair point about flash cannon for luring. Congrats for making a (useless) mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Seth Vilo]

I realllllllly hate to be that guy, but because of the drastic changes this analysis has had and continues to have day to day, are the first two QC stamps still even applicable? One of them was back right after Kanga was banned, and before CRUMBER even was in the analysis. Not that it would be a hard thing to re-QC it, but those first stamps don't really apply to how this analysis is now...

 

[Martin]

TANK AEGISLASH
ffs


TANK AEGISLASH ffs.

TTar is an excellent switch in for Shadow Ball spam and can immediately threaten with EQ/Fire Blast/Crunch/Pursuit... by that logic no one is ever switching in anything at Hydreigon ever...

Okay I'm done here. I just wanted to make a fair point about flash cannon for luring. Congrats for making a (useless) mountain out of a molehill.

I don't mean to be arguing anymore and I am no longer attempting to prove any points, but I've just noticed that the Tank and Crumbler sets share each other's spreads, and my calcs were accidentally using the tank set's item (leftovers)

I didn't mean to be making a mountain out of a molehill. sorry if I annoyed you

 

[Soul Fly]

It's cool. Head Smash is just pointless without Attack investment... that's all

 

[Imanalt]

from sd set: "Shadow Sneak OHKOes many faster Pokemon with the help of hazards, such as Excadrill, Thundurus, Keldeo, and Genesect" both has the issue of mentioning genesect but is also flat out wrong, unless youre assuming multiple layers of spikes and sr
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 227-269 (70.2 - 83.2%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 313-370 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[BurningMan]

Why is there absolutly no mention of Pursuit on the Tank set? Aegi is propably one of the best Pursuit users in the game and even though not every team needs pursuit support it is a lot better than iron head.

Any input on this? Pursuit Aegi is pretty common so i really think that a mention if not a slash would be justified.

If you see hard counters to Aegislash (SpD Hippo, Mandibuzz), you are better off double switching after bringing Aegislash in

Take this out this applys to virtually every Pokemon and its not even that true for Aegi which sometimes appreciates getting some health back from lefties+Kings Shield and Aegies hard counters are not exceptionally hard to switch into.

 

[alexwolf]

Any input on this? Pursuit Aegi is pretty common so i really think that a mention if not a slash would be justified.



Take this out this applys to virtually every Pokemon and its not even that true for Aegi which sometimes appreciates getting some health back from lefties+Kings Shield and Aegies hard counters are not exceptionally hard to switch into.

Pursuit will be slashed or at least get a Moves mention in both the tank and mixed sets, dw.

 

[Colonel M]

At the least, Pursuit should definitely be slashed in the tank set.

 

[[Gemini]]

In the Autotomize set, why use 168 EVs on Speed? Aegislash loses to Positive nature base 122 by one point with Modest or Rash ( 377 vs 198*2 = 376 ). I think that should be changed to 172 to outspeed that Greninja or the nature to Naughty/Timid to outspeed + Nature base 130 instead.

 

[alexwolf]

In the Autotomize set, why use 168 EVs on Speed? Aegislash loses to Positive nature base 122 by one point with Modest or Rash ( 377 vs 198*2 = 376 ). I think that should be changed to 172 to outspeed that Greninja or the nature to Naughty/Timid to outspeed + Nature base 130 instead.

189 * 2 = 378, which is enough to outrun Greninja, so i changed the EV spread on Autotomize Aegislash to reflect this.

Slashed Pursuit in both the tank and mixed sets.

Also, completely changed the mixed set. We agreed with Swamp Link, Ashborer, TRC, and CBB, to give it max Speed+ to outrun some important targets, such as Landorus-T and Bisharp, and 2HKO/OHKO them. Also Flash Cannon > Iron Head because it can 2HKO Mandibuzz and without Atk investment fares better against most Fairy-types, even after factoring the CM boost for Clefable. Kept the max Atk / max SpA spread and Spooky Plate on set details though.

I would like for all QC members to post their opinions about the current situation of the analysis, so i know that everything is how it's supposed to be and i can finally write it up.

 

[crazy_man]

189 * 2 = 378, which is enough to outrun Greninja, so i changed the EV spread on Autotomize Aegislash to reflect this.

Slashed Pursuit in both the tank and mixed sets.

Also, completely changed the mixed set. We agreed with Swamp Link, Ashborer, TRC, and CBB, to give it max Speed+ to outrun some important targets, such as Landorus-T and Bisharp, and 2HKO/OHKO them. Also Flash Cannon > Iron Head because it can 2HKO Mandibuzz and without Atk investment fares better against most Fairy-types, even after factoring the CM boost for Clefable. Kept the max Atk / max SpA spread and Spooky Plate on set details though.

I would like for all QC members to post their opinions about the current situation of the analysis, so i know that everything is how it's supposed to be and i can finally write it up.

Just a little nitpick.

On the Autotomize set you still have "Put the 88 EV's into HP if using Flash Cannon" which should be 124.

 

[Swamp Link]

On tank, I'd prefer to see this:

-Shadow Ball
-Iron Head / Sacred Sword
-Shadow Sneak / Pursuit
-King's Shield

I don't think Sacred Sword is necessary by any means, especially when the combination Iron Head and Shadow Ball hits most things decently enough. Iron Head is great for actually hurting CM Clefable and other Fairy-types that you check, and I prefer it over Sacred Sword most of the time. Rest of the sets seem fine.

 

[alexwolf]

On tank, I'd prefer to see this:

-Shadow Ball
-Iron Head / Sacred Sword
-Shadow Sneak / Pursuit
-King's Shield

I don't think Sacred Sword is necessary by any means, especially when the combination Iron Head and Shadow Ball hits most things decently enough. Iron Head is great for actually hurting CM Clefable and other Fairy-types that you check, and I prefer it over Sacred Sword most of the time. Rest of the sets seem fine.

I would agree with you if it wasn't for Bisharp, but without Sacred Sword, Bisharp can switch in with no fear and Pursuit trap you, while Sacred Sword gives you a mean to OHKO it and prevent it from setting up on you with SD.

 

[Jukain]

Hi as a QC team we talked a bit ago, and have a list of changes for this analysis:

THE CRUMBLER
########
name: THE CRUMBLER
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Shadow Sneak
move 3: King's Shield
move 4: Pursuit / Iron Head / Sacred Sword
ability: Stance Change
item: Leftovers
nature: Quiet
evs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe

Replace the current Tank set with this. The name change is just a nitpick; this is the set people think of when they think of CRUMBLER, so this is the set that should have said name. Anyways...Shadow Ball is obviously mandatory, as is King's Shield (for this set). The decision to make Shadow Sneak mandatory was because when you use Shadow Ball, Aegis likes to pick things off with Sneak. It's so useful for picking things off in general, that even though it's kinda on the weak side, it is still very much so mandatory. The last slot is simple; Pursuit is a really good move on Aegis, as it is a perfect check to the Latis, and can checkmate them. It's really really good, such to the point where it should be the first slash. Iron Head is a good option because of CM Clefable, which poses a large threat to it, and Fairies in general. Sacred Sword is great for hitting Sharp and actually doing significant damage to Chansey, so it's slashed. It has less application than the other moves on the set in general, so it's slashed last.

Toxic should be mentioned in Moves. It's great when you're up against pretty much any non-immune bulky wall. Unaware Clefable, Chansey, Mandibuzz as it switches in, etc. are good examples of when it's useful.

Mention in Set Details that if you are running Sacred Sword, you should run 16 Atk EVs to guarantee the KO on Tyranitar.

Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Flash Cannon / Sacred Sword
move 3: Shadow Sneak
move 4: Sacred Sword / King's Shield / Pursuit
ability: Stance Change
item: Life Orb / Spooky Plate
nature: Naive / Hasty
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

This is what the LO set should be, because it needs the Speed. Notably, it outspeeds Adamant Bisharp and KOes with Sacred Sword., which is extremely notable considering how Bisharp is supposed to counter Aegislash. With a Naive nature and max Speed, it outspeeds all kinds of defensive Pokemon (including Mandibuzz, which is 2HKOed by Flash Cannon). If you need further explanation on the moveset, I can provide it, but it should be pretty intuitive.

The set order should be:

THE CRUMBLER/Tank
SubToxic
Offensive
Rest as-is

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Is it really worth outspeeding Bisharp when it can just Sucker Punch anyway?

 

[Swamp Link]

The idea is that you avoid Pursuit trapping, and Bisharp almost never goes for Sucker Punch against Aegislash (although that could change after some time).

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Well yeah, right now there's no reason to but if fast Aegislash should become the norm, it could easily run Jolly or use Sucker Punch instead.

I feel this is kind of like Azumarill trying to speed creep Rotom-W, until it catches on it will work but it's easily worked around.

 

[Swamp Link]

It's not like these analyses are permanent. As the metagame changes, they will as well.

 

[alexwolf]

Hi as a QC team we talked a bit ago, and have a list of changes for this analysis:

THE CRUMBLER
########
name: THE CRUMBLER
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Shadow Sneak
move 3: King's Shield
move 4: Pursuit / Iron Head / Sacred Sword
ability: Stance Change
item: Leftovers
nature: Quiet
evs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe

Replace the current Tank set with this. The name change is just a nitpick; this is the set people think of when they think of CRUMBLER, so this is the set that should have said name. Anyways...Shadow Ball is obviously mandatory, as is King's Shield (for this set). The decision to make Shadow Sneak mandatory was because when you use Shadow Ball, Aegis likes to pick things off with Sneak. It's so useful for picking things off in general, that even though it's kinda on the weak side, it is still very much so mandatory. The last slot is simple; Pursuit is a really good move on Aegis, as it is a perfect check to the Latis, and can checkmate them. It's really really good, such to the point where it should be the first slash. Iron Head is a good option because of CM Clefable, which poses a large threat to it, and Fairies in general. Sacred Sword is great for hitting Sharp and actually doing significant damage to Chansey, so it's slashed. It has less application than the other moves on the set in general, so it's slashed last.

Toxic should be mentioned in Moves. It's great when you're up against pretty much any non-immune bulky wall. Unaware Clefable, Chansey, Mandibuzz as it switches in, etc. are good examples of when it's useful.

Mention in Set Details that if you are running Sacred Sword, you should run 16 Atk EVs to guarantee the KO on Tyranitar.

Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Flash Cannon / Sacred Sword
move 3: Shadow Sneak
move 4: Sacred Sword / King's Shield / Pursuit
ability: Stance Change
item: Life Orb / Spooky Plate
nature: Naive / Hasty
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

This is what the LO set should be, because it needs the Speed. Notably, it outspeeds Adamant Bisharp and KOes with Sacred Sword., which is extremely notable considering how Bisharp is supposed to counter Aegislash. With a Naive nature and max Speed, it outspeeds all kinds of defensive Pokemon (including Mandibuzz, which is 2HKOed by Flash Cannon). If you need further explanation on the moveset, I can provide it, but it should be pretty intuitive.

The set order should be:

THE CRUMBLER/Tank
SubToxic
Offensive
Rest as-is

I am ok with everything you said, and btw i had alrdy changed the offensive set to the one you mentioned. The only thing i disagree with is slashing King's Shield on the main offensive set now that it is speedy, as you won't be moving second so often and without HP investment you are not going to be tanking strong super effective STAB attacks from your offensive checks, and you outspeed and 2HKO most of your defensive ones. King's Shield was ok on the 252 Atk / 252 SpA set, because it would allow Aegislash to tank weaker hits from Pokemon such as Heatran, Gliscor, Landorus-T without Atk investment, and Rotom-W, but i don't see the point now.

 

[Jukain]

i'm ok w/ that

 

[Colonel M]

Ok, once the changes are made (including the set swapping)...

QC Approved 1/3