AerodactylNah fam, you get Ampharos, I'm using it in my Y run...
*Remembers having to use Thundershock as STAB even after lv. 30.*
Yeah, good point, you don't get a mega.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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Don't you get the Charge Beam and Thunderbolt TMs fairly quickly after finding Mareep? It's not like you were gonna fire those electric attacks against the grass and electric leaders anyway.Nah fam, you get Ampharos, I'm using it in my Y run...
*Remembers having to use Thundershock as STAB even after lv. 30.*
Yeah, good point, you don't get a mega.
EDIT: the other stones available are:
Abomasite
Aerodactylite
Gengarite
Lucarionite
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I dunno, just beat Ramos.
Ngl tho, grinding Mareep is straight up a struggle. It being a Horde Encounter exclusive is terrible. It comes way too underleveled. If it at least got Charge Beam before Korrina, it'd be a lot easier.
Edit: Oh, yeah, Aero is super early too. Pretty busted iirc.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Give it time. As I said earlier, "X game wasn't that bad/is underrated" is merely the first stage, I bet my left nut that as time goes on XY will only become more and more loved as people look past its shortcomings and focus more on what it did right. I also (sadly) haven't seen as many posts looking back fondly on Sun and Moon because, again, that's how the cycle works.
I admittedly dunno how BW2 was received at launch, but it is widely known just how utterly brutal the initial reception to the generation as a whole was to the point where people I have talked to who were around at that time claim it may have actually been worse than the SWSH outrage (something which I kinda struggle to fathom, not because I don't believe them but because I can barely comprehend the idea of a shitstorm worse than what happened with those games), so I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if some of that spilled over into BW2's launch like what will doubtlessly happen with SWSH's DLCs.
Actually, time for some mathematics! According to my personal estimates from recollection I'd say the first stage for Gen 5 really kicked off around, say, 2017-2018, at least in its most highly visible state. That's what, a 6-7 year gap from Black and White 1's 2011 US release? Now, if we apply some basic arithmetic to XY's 2013 release date, we get an "estimated cycle start time" of... 2019-2020, which sounds eerily on the mark considering how XY's standing with fans has been slowly rising around this time. Now obviously this isn't gonna be the exact case for every generation, there may be some variables that cause certain generation's cycles to begin earlier or later (e.g. I wouldn't be surprised if I found that the roots of BW's cycle began probably even before 2017), but I'd say on the whole it more or less checks out.
You can get Mega Aerodactyl and Ampharos before the post game.
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Here's a different one regarding hardware: I prefer using a GameCube controller to play Sword and Shield. I know GCN controllers are designated for Smash, but you don't really need all the buttons on a Pro Controller. It also feels strangely comfortable and much more durable than that drifting pair of Joy-Con.
Wait you can do that? I don't own an adapter myself, so I wouldn't know.
I personally remember it being bad, but definitely not as bad as SnS.
People were really mad about the lack of older pokémon (See the pattern?) but unlike SnS, which does have other glaring flaws (Seriously, what is that draw distance!?) people warmed up more quickly to BW1.
The main criticism about BW1 at the time really was about how only the new mons could be found in it and that a lot of them were straight-up remixes of some Kanto mons (I'm sure you'll remember the Trubbish/Grimer comparison) or the classic "It doesn't look like Pokémon!"
BW2 basically wasn't criticised at all upon launch. Characters like Hugh immediately had memes made about him, which is one of the things you've been identifying as demonstrating that the fanbase is now looking favourably on the games, and the fact that it wasn't Unova-Pokémon exclusive during the main game helped massively. The story was considered a step down from BW but still the second best story in the series besides its predecessor, which also demonstrates how people were still liking things about BW upon the release of BW2 which also defies the cycle, like its story and in particular the character of N, and people still disliked how difficulties were locked behind beating the game first but... that was about it. Its visuals were widely praised, its Pokémon selection and difficulty were widely praised, its new characters like Colress and Hugh were widely praised, its continuity from BW were widely praised completing the arcs of characters like Cheren and Bianca. And the postgame content was also loved, with fan favourites like the PWT being adored from the outset, plus things like Hidden Grottos making it easier to get Hidden Abilities without having to use the Dreamworld. And all of the references to other games in the series were loved because they were done right, such as the battle against Cynthia and all of the leaders returning in the PWT.
BW was hated by portions of the fanbase when it was released for one unique reason alone: the regional dex only including Unovan Pokémon. Besides that, what other complaints there were became series staples -- BW were the first games to be truly linear, for example, but the series has only gone down that path more now with putting literal checkpoint flags on the map where you have to go next, which ties into Codraroll's analysis that people stop caring about something negative in older games that is even more negative in newer ones. And BW2 fixed the linearity to an extent with having a delinear postgame with exploration.
You'd have to stretch really hard to try and fit Gen V into this cycle you've created because BW2 never went through it, and fixed all of the complaints people had with BW at that, making the generation as a whole much more loved overall. There were still some people calling BW itself a misstep in some regards but those people liked BW2, so the argument that this cycle works in entire generations and therefore BW2 are included in the hatred of BW falls flat. BW2 weren't just considered better than BW by most right after their release, people were immediately arguing about where BW2 was in the series ranking overall, and it was the small minority of people who put them last, or last only to BW. Many people put them first, or second behind the generation they grew up with.
Edit: I just remembered that there was a camp of people who were mad that Gen V was released on the DS as opposed to the 3DS, calling on Game Freak to "modernise" or whatever. That was a very vocal minority, and then when XY were released and most of the models were unexpressive and a clear step down from the spritework of Gen V, they retracted their arguments and instead praised how stunning the spritework in Gen V is. So that's a complaint that lasted a ~year before XY dropped and made them realise that they were wrong, which I guess ties into your cycle, but on a much smaller timespan and once again it contributes more to Codraroll's theory that people are much likelier to reneg on their criticisms when a later version of the game does whatever they were complaining about worse than the game they were originally complaining about.
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On the topic of exceptions, you might recall that I noted some similarities between the idea of a cycle for pokemon games and what goes on between editions of tabletop games. While I'm not versed in this enough to find something that was immediately beloved, I do know of an exception in the other direction. 4th edition D&D was not well-liked upon its release, and has not drawn in very many new fans. Interestingly, one can draw a few parallels between it and gen 8:
- Cutting complicated mechanics just to streamline the system (compare Pursuit and Hidden Power)
- Forcing creators to stop supporting the previously-open older system, meaning that people were not willing to update since it would mean losing an existing base (compare the Dex cuts)
- A massive number of initial sales for the base game, and, relatively speaking, an utter failure to sell anything based on it once people had gotten familiar with it (compare SS's sales numbers, we'd need to see how the next games do for a full comparison)
The whole matter rests on a question. Is the initial bad reception and later warming up either because of people bashing the new game just because it's the new one (it happens everywhere, not just Pokémon) and they stop when there's a new game to bash? Or is it because a later game is released and makes them realize "it could have been worse"?
Of course, it depends on the person and the game.
Of course, it depends on the person and the game.
I can think of one other widespread complaint: the new Pokemon themselves.
"Why is Alomomola not a Luvdisc evolution?"
"They made a Pokemon that's literally garbage."
"An ice cream cone? Are you fucking serious?"
"That's just the same Pokemon three times with more gears attached."
"What is up with Stunfisk?"
"[insert otherwise cool Unova Pokemon here] is just a rehash of [insert similar older Pokemon here]."
Yeah but this still defies Yung Dramps' "cycle" because people still dislike all the same Pokémon they did back then. The people who initially criticised Gen V's roster still criticise it, and the people who didn't criticise it originally still don't criticise it. There's been marginal movement one way or another.
But you're right that it's a criticism that circulates. I was primarily thinking about criticisms with the gameplay and the like though, since this is meant to be a discussion about game design.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Alright then, that settles it: BW2 I guess were just so amazingly well-received that they actually managed to be exceptions to the cycle, which I can admit and have admitted is not absolute law. But if other testimonies I have from possibly even older players (dunno how long you've been playing Pokemon) that have recollections of the DP and even RSE days as well as the old forum posts I linked in a previous posts are anything to go off of this was just that, an exception to the rule. Every other game has received some degree of rage at release but people, for a lack of a better term, got over it. HGSS got shit on, OG DP got shit on, OG RS got shit on! Again, that's the impression the testimonies I've followed have given me, if you've been around just as long and can argue against that then feel free. Also just because BW1 even at peak outrage had elements most people liked doesn't mean the cycle doesn't apply. Sword and Shield right now have gotten some pretty universal praise for stuff like the really really well-handled gym challenge that even a lot of the most critical people can concede to, kinda like your examples for BW1.
Actually did you know that for the past few years Garbodor has steadily accumulated a cult following? Hell not even that, there are plenty of people in the online Pokemon space who unabashedly adore this Pokemon or at the very least think it got way, WAY too much shit for its design concept, both of which are opinions that they likely would've gotten lacerated for at BW1's launch but are nowadays generally tolerated, it's seriously gotten to the point where I actually think liking Garbodor is not even a hot take anymore.
Absolutely not. There's definitely a TON of "x new game sucks y was so much better", but honestly very little of that is begrudging "y game wasn't that good but it's better than x", it's genuine heartfelt praise I'd say 80% of the time. Even though its currently early in its cycle rising X and Y fans are already placing the game highly as Pokemon games, putting it in their personal B, A and even S ranks despite being old enough to have experienced or going back to experience older games. Just take this tier list from a buddy of mine:
I didn't go out of my way to find this person by the way, I just happened to come across them while joining a new server! This could be seen as a very extreme and highly unusual case, but IMO it's still a sign of a greater trend.
I remember BW2 getting a bit of criticism back then. People [that I saw] weren't saying "second-best story" at the time; they were bashing it for being just as bad as all the pre-BW stories. Overall, I think the games were well-received though.
More importantly: wait wait wait. I wasn't online enough back then to know this, but did Ruby and Sapphire - top-tier Pokemon games! - really get shit on? I knew they were underrated, and I guess they were the original Dexit, but damn.
Finally, while the Trubbish, Vanillite, and Klink lines are still among my all-time least favourite Pokemon, one of the best things about the BW dex is that it gave us awesome-because-they're-so-weird designs like Stunfisk, Sigilyph, and Cryogonal.
More importantly: wait wait wait. I wasn't online enough back then to know this, but did Ruby and Sapphire - top-tier Pokemon games! - really get shit on? I knew they were underrated, and I guess they were the original Dexit, but damn.
Finally, while the Trubbish, Vanillite, and Klink lines are still among my all-time least favourite Pokemon, one of the best things about the BW dex is that it gave us awesome-because-they're-so-weird designs like Stunfisk, Sigilyph, and Cryogonal.
Again, what you're not getting is the severity of the criticisms. Over time, the criticisms against games even at launch have become more and more severe.
- In RS the main criticism was that people didn't like the story much, but thought it was a cool concept and could be worked on in future titles.
- In DP the main criticism was the speed of gameplay and the selection of Pokémon, but the DS was still fairly new and the third version would be able to speed up gameplay, while it could also add new Pokémon to the dex for type balance (both of which it did).
- In BW the main criticism was the Pokémon selection again only more egregious this time, which the third version could fix (and did). and linearity.
- In XY the main criticisms were the difficulty, pacing, under-utilisation of mega-evolution, underwhelming visuals, story, and unmemorable characters, none of which were fixed in a third version because one was never released.
- In SM the games were literally unfinished, plus the beginning of the game took forever to get you into the gameplay loop, and the games were way too easy except for the Totem Battles which fluctuated between being way too easy and being so weirdly difficult that the player didn't have much control over gameplay and either had to go and grind or just keep retrying for better luck, plus having no competitive facilities in the postgame (this also applies to XY), and very little postgame whatsoever besides the tacked on UBs, and the transparent in your face linearity up to this point.
- And then USUM got its own unique criticism of actually making the story worse than the original games, a brand new criticism for a third version, as well as most of the same problems that SM had.
- And then SwSh has too many criticisms to bother listing here.
Garbodor has always been considered a good design by the majority of the fanbase, and Trubbish has been included on a lot of PokéTubers' favourite Unovan Pokémon lists, for instance! Nobody who knows what they're talking about has ever criticised Trubbish / Garbodor which is why hating them is a meme, because plenty of people did dislike the designs, but they were people who couldn't justify their reasons for disliking it besides "it's just a bag of trash" hence the meme wars of "well this is a seal called Seel" etc.. This paragraph demonstrates how you're backreading reception and weren't there at the time, which of course isn't your fault, but it also means you're reading everything out of context and aren't understanding what a lot of these forum posts actually meant at the time. There was a very vocal minority of people hating on everything about BW when they were released, including their Pokémon designs, but the vast majority of the veteran fanbase were much more receptive to everything BW did besides having no oldgen Pokémon in the regional dex, including its designs. I'd be willing to bet many of the posts you've seen hating on Trubbish and Garbodor were written sarcastically. Of course, it's fine for a few people to legitimately dislike the designs because everyone has a few pet peeves with random Pokémon without necessarily having good reasoning for it, but it was nowhere near the overwhelming majority that you think it was.Yung Dramps said:
Anyway, Pokémon designs aren't relevant to a discussion about game design. Individual designs have never been tied to games in the same way as gameplay is. For instance, Munchlax and Bonsly feature in the Gen III anime (and XD: Gales of Darkness, a Gen III game), Meltan and Melmetal are Generation 7.5, Togepi and Ho-oh were in the Gen I anime, and then Pokémon like Shellos and Gastrodon were designed in Gen III but released in Gen IV. The fact that once a Pokémon is introduced it will almost certainly be featured in future games anyway, means that they're much more nomadic and aren't tied to the game that they're introduced in. Gen VII and VIII are widely praised for their designs, but that doesn't make the games any better. If anything, it just increases the impression of them being missed opportunities.
Why, of course! The whole "genwunner" thing started there.
Not being able to transfer your Pokémon from GSC, all the changes in mechanics, and the anime breaking off the "classic" formula (no joking, that had an influence) were... not exactly well-received at first.
The incompatibility part made me doubt about playing Sapphire at first... but then I thought "I can't get a console and I'm playing on an emulator. Why am I complaining about something that does not affect me?". And that's how I'm still here.
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We won't need to wait for this long. The DLC will show just how many people are still invested enough in SnS to drop more money on it.
I personally meant memes resurging in the present like Driftveil City. There's joking about a game that just came out and there's doing so years after the fact. I'd say many Gen 5 fans today weren't even involved in the fanbase back then, especially to the point of praising or criticizing it on release.
I found things like hidden grottos more of a guidebook/veteran feature; I never found any on my own past the first Minccino/mulch one.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Up until this point I've been trying to avoid silly nitpicks, but what the actual fuck does this even mean? Last time I played Sun (which was a week ago btw) there was a definitive beginning, middle and end. It ran fine, it didn't crash, it didn't cut to a black screen right before the Mother Beast Lusamine battle began with text saying "oops we couldn't finish the game please give us $30 for the upcoming expansion pack that will wrap up the story" it was by and large a complete videogame. What, is there some interview out there where the devs confirmed 1/3 of the design document was ignored to get the game out on time? I'd argue something like OG DP has much more grounds to be considered "unfinished" seeing as they couldn't even be fucked to implement every single one of their new Pokemon (namely the missing cross-gen evos) into the Regional Pokedex, but even that's a ludicrous stretch. Please explain to me what you are insinuating here, and if you think that there was content cut exclusively because of time constraints that was put in something like USUM please provide indisputable proof it was meant to be in the base game.
As for the other stuff you said, I don't buy it in the slightest and I would dispute it but frankly I don't care anymore, this dumbass back-and-forth has run its course and is fundamentally arguing about stuff that may or may not happen. By the second half of the 2020s we'll see which of us was was right assuming both of us are even still around on this site which hasn't had anything happen to it by that point.
To add on to this, one of the more prevalent criticisms of RS at the time was of the idea of the Regional Pokedex because it meant that not all Pokemon would be available in the game. Which as we all know is a criticism that has never resurfaced ever.
And before you start going on about how all of the Pokemon at the time were coded into the game, those methods to obtain said Pokemon, before FRLG, were not available to everyone and the mess that was pre-WiFi trading meant that, more often than not, what you saw is what you get.
I know. I played those games back then, and I was unhappy about this. It just felt to me like one isolated flaw in games that I otherwise love, and that held up for a long time as the series moved on.
Maybe it’s precisely because people weren’t online as much (e.g. there was no Twitter), or because there wasn’t as long a history of including everything, but that Dexit didn’t feel like as big a deal as the current one.
I'm old, I'll weigh in.
It's clear a lot of vocal opinions come from whatever game college students played as kids, I won't dispute that. But I think percieved changes in common opinion come from different people talking instead of the same people changing their minds.
Anyway as far as RSE was concerned, it didn't exactly get shit on, but between it being on a new console and not having transferring, and the new pokemon in general, it was an opportunity for a lot of people who were caught up in pokemon as a phenomenon who weren't necessarily into video games to make a clean break. And this, I imagine, is where a lot of the genwunners come from. But in the nerdier circles I used to frequent RSE was comparitively well recieved. Colosseum and FRLG were good, and this generation and it's mechanics marked the advent of competitive pokemon. The Battle frontier gave us the motivation to build good teams, check resources and communities for how this stuff worked, and start getting involved as DP was released.
DP was rightfully chided for being a bit of a beta with the one button poketch and slow animations, and that affected some people more than others. A few friends of mine also didn't enjoy how few new pokemon were in the regional dex. But otherwise it saw average reception for a pokemon game. What I have NO idea about is where your HGSS impression is coming from. Best I can tell every contemporary opinion already had it as the best pokemon game of all time, between the clean QoL changes and implementation as a remake and the popularity of GSC as a whole.