Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Hey there, trying to build a TR team under ORAS, for now I have Slowbro, Porygon2, Chandelure as setters, Rhyperior, Breloom and Mega-ampharos as sweepers (Chandelure can both set TR and sweep). I'm wondering if I should drop Chandelure as base 80 speed is really high even with - nature and it doesn't seem bulky enough to be comfortable setting up TR, unless when forcing a switch (the idea I had using him was to be able to lure Fighting attack directed against Porygon2).
I'm really considering replacing it with Adaptability Dragalge, but I fear losing the fire and ghost STAB. It also doesn't solve the Earthquake weakness my team has at the moment. Chandelure also has the following boons:
* hits hard and can (?) work outside trickroom
* can have Taunt to open up opportunity to set up TR
* still somewhat bulky although typing doesn't help, I'd probably run it with Air balloon
Is Chandelure really too fast to be considered for TR? Is there a better option than Dragalge to replace it? (please excuse my noobiness if any is to be found in this post)
Chandelure is not at all too fast to work on a Trick Room team, and I would recommend it over Dragalge as two setters is a bit lacking. You've got to remember people are speed obsessed in the meta, I've been using base 100 speed Manaphy and it's one of my best members (though it won't outspeed everything in Trick Room, for the most part it isn't threatened by other low speed pokemon except Amoongus and Ferrothorn).
Air Balloon gives you opportunities to set up on the likes of Landorus-T, the vast of majority don't run enough attack to KO you with Knock Off or they choice lock themselves into Earthquake thinking Chandelure is nothing to worry about. However, you can also run a Colbur Berry if you're worried about Knock Off. Infiltrator allows you to hit behind subs which can be a big problem for Trick Room teams, but if you're not worried about that use Flash Fire. I prefer Flamethrower to Overheat as it has perfect accuracy (Chandelure not having the capability to many hits) and Shadow Ball is your mandatory Ghost STAB.
For the last slot, you have many options. As I use set up sweepers, I like Memento, as it provides a nice opportunity for a sweeper to come in unharmed except for SR and Spikes' damage. Energy Ball is another option to do damage to things Rotom-W, but you won't OHKO so you need some residual damage first. Will-o-Wisp again allows you to bring in something stronger more easily, and Taunt can shut down stall teams and allow you to set Trick Room.
Chandelure is usable in TR but 80 base speed is kind of pushing it. I do not typically use offensive pokemon to set up my TR. I feel it is better to have bulky setters that can heal off damage, stay in the fight, and keep setting up TR.
My latest TR team that I have been using to great success only has two setters, Celebii and Porygon2. They are both extremely vulnerable to Knock Off so I included M-Scizor on my team. Not only is he able to absorb Knock Offs easily but he is able to make good use of TR while it is up and still have priority when it is down. I simply stall until I find a good opportunity for one of my sweepers to come in and do as much damage as possible. I didn't really think that stall was possible in a TR team, but it seems to be working just fine!
I would mention choice specs Exploud since it has an insane amount of power and can hit behind subs.Here's a sample set.
Exploud @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Boomburst
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
So assuming that Greninja gets the ban, or even if it doesn't, I had a rather interesting set for Trick Room I thought I'd run by you all. This set really needs a safe switch, preferably off Memento (Uxie is great at that), but once he's in bad things happen:
Ursaring @ Flame Orb Toxic Orb, see discussion below
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Facade
- Fire Punch / Play Rough / Hammer Arm / Gunk Shot
- One of the above
- Swords Dance
Facade, even without an SD boost, hits horrendously hard with STAB and a Guts attack boost - OHKOing all average bulk pokemon that don't resist. For a bit of perspective it hits even harder than a burnt 252+ Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Facade or a 252+ Landorus-T Explosion. At a +2 it gets even sillier, hitting harder than a +1 252+ Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent - yes you did just read that right. Let's have a look at what that can do:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 411-484 (136.5 - 160.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 343-405 (115.4 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 477-562 (124.2 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 315-372 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 259-306 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 499-588 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 435-513 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 390-460 (120.7 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 352-415 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 375-442 (137.8 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 357-421 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 264-311 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That means unboosted it can OHKO huge portions of the meta game (even things as bulky as offensive Mega Venusaur after rocks) - perfect for a late game clean - but it can also boost to take out resists with Facade and wall break early game; as demonstrated even Mega Metagross and Mega Slowbro after rocks or Multiscale Dragonite aren't safe. This kind of power in one move is huge and when coupled to a Healing Wish user, of which there are many that also have Trick Room and decent bulk, allows you to go for round two even when you do bring it out early. Now let's get onto problematic checks and walls, at least IMO, of Trick Room play:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 378-446 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 360-428 (102.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 484-572 (120 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 301-355 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 651-766 (155 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 398-470 (130.9 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 306-362 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see with the right coverage it can OHKO most things that are difficult for Trick Room teams to handle (Unaware physically defensive Clefable being the No.1 trouble maker from my experience), though if you're going to go toe to toe with Mega Sableye you need to catch it outside of Trick Room or on the mega-evo turn in Trick Room to outspeed. Pick the coverage that best suits your team, but remember at an effective 210 BP Facade (factoring in STAB) will often do more neutral damage than a super effective hit.
In terms of other advantages it offers, not caring about status is pretty huge. Burns are pretty common in the current meta, to not care about them at all is great. The main drawbacks are fairly low bulk and lack of access to priority, but it doesn't need bulk under Trick Room when it hits as hard as it does and the priority issue on a good TR team should already be addressed anyway. It will also take damage for its burns, so Healing Wish recovery is a very good idea.
To summarise:
Pros
* An ungodly powerful Guts Facade which at the +2 surpasses the power (in terms of neutral damage) of a +1 252+ Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent.
* Great coverage that can easily deal with pretty much any typing you want it to.
* Low speed, which is great for Trick Room.
* Can't be afflicted with status after the initial burn.
* Comfortably 2HKOes all Unaware users with Facade (75% chance to OHKO 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable with rocks), and OHKOes them with coverage.
Cons
* Low bulk so you need to think about how to bring it in for free.
* No priority, making it an easy target for priority users.
* Lack of recovery plus burn damage makes its assault unsustainable for many turns, and it will likely need Healing Wish support.
In a singles battle you might consider toxic orb over flame orb, just a thought.
Flame orb does more damage than toxic orb over three turns, it is on the fourth turn which toxic orb begins to really sting.
Since TR and Healing Wish are available in your team it might be better for a quick mini sweep, allowing you to take less residual damage between TR setting.
In a singles battle you might consider toxic orb over flame orb, just a thought.
Flame orb does more damage than toxic orb over three turns, it is on the fourth turn which toxic orb begins to really sting.
Since TR and Healing Wish are available in your team it might be better for a quick mini sweep, allowing you to take less residual damage between TR setting.
Good point, as on the first turn in the status damage doesn't take effect (so turn 1 TR, turn 2 Memento/U-Turn/Whatever, turn 3 SD or Protect with Ursaring and get the status, then two turns of crazy damage - so two turns of status under Trick Room total). However the three turn damage mark is the same: 1/16 + 2/16 + 3/16 = 6/16 = 3/8 - but you may only want to stay in for two turns in the first instance given Ursaring's miserable bulk.
Some extra things I've noticed about the set are it may be worthwhile running Protect over Swords Dance as you need the first turn for the status to set and this stops Knock Off and Mega Lopunny Fake Out damage - but naturally it makes you more reliant on coverage and you're susceptible to Intimidate. Also though I posted first posted it as coverage I wouldn't advise running Gunk Shot to OHKO unware Clefable - Facade OHKOs 75% after rocks anyway on the maximum Def and HP and Gunk Shot only has 80% accuracy, which means in practical terms you'd only be securing the OHKO an extra 1/20 matches where Unaware Clefable is present which really isn't worth it.
So assuming that Greninja gets the ban, or even if it doesn't, I had a rather interesting set for Trick Room I thought I'd run by you all. This set really needs a safe switch, preferably off Memento (Uxie is great at that), but once he's in bad things happen:
Ursaring @ Flame Orb Toxic Orb, see discussion below
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Facade
- Fire Punch / Play Rough / Hammer Arm / Gunk Shot
- One of the above
- Swords Dance
Facade, even without an SD boost, hits horrendously hard with STAB and a Guts attack boost - OHKOing all average bulk pokemon that don't resist. For a bit of perspective it hits even harder than a burnt 252+ Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Facade or a 252+ Landorus-T Explosion. At a +2 it gets even sillier, hitting harder than a +1 252+ Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent - yes you did just read that right. Let's have a look at what that can do:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 411-484 (136.5 - 160.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 343-405 (115.4 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 477-562 (124.2 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 315-372 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 259-306 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 499-588 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 435-513 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 390-460 (120.7 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 352-415 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 375-442 (137.8 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 357-421 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 264-311 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That means unboosted it can OHKO huge portions of the meta game (even things as bulky as offensive Mega Venusaur after rocks) - perfect for a late game clean - but it can also boost to take out resists with Facade and wall break early game; as demonstrated even Mega Metagross and Mega Slowbro after rocks or Multiscale Dragonite aren't safe. This kind of power in one move is huge and when coupled to a Healing Wish user, of which there are many that also have Trick Room and decent bulk, allows you to go for round two even when you do bring it out early. Now let's get onto problematic checks and walls, at least IMO, of Trick Room play:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 378-446 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 360-428 (102.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 484-572 (120 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 301-355 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 651-766 (155 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 398-470 (130.9 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 306-362 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see with the right coverage it can OHKO most things that are difficult for Trick Room teams to handle (Unaware physically defensive Clefable being the No.1 trouble maker from my experience), though if you're going to go toe to toe with Mega Sableye you need to catch it outside of Trick Room or on the mega-evo turn in Trick Room to outspeed. Pick the coverage that best suits your team, but remember at an effective 210 BP Facade (factoring in STAB) will often do more neutral damage than a super effective hit.
In terms of other advantages it offers, not caring about status is pretty huge. Burns are pretty common in the current meta, to not care about them at all is great. The main drawbacks are fairly low bulk and lack of access to priority, but it doesn't need bulk under Trick Room when it hits as hard as it does and the priority issue on a good TR team should already be addressed anyway. It will also take damage for its burns, so Healing Wish recovery is a very good idea.
To summarise:
Pros
* An ungodly powerful Guts Facade which at the +2 surpasses the power (in terms of neutral damage) of a +1 252+ Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent.
* Great coverage that can easily deal with pretty much any typing you want it to.
* Low speed, which is great for Trick Room.
* Can't be afflicted with status after the initial burn.
* Comfortably 2HKOes all Unaware users with Facade (75% chance to OHKO 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable with rocks), and OHKOes them with coverage.
Cons
* Low bulk so you need to think about how to bring it in for free.
* No priority, making it an easy target for priority users.
* Lack of recovery plus burn damage makes its assault unsustainable for many turns, and it will likely need Healing Wish support.
So, I had another idea. Looking at axelwolf's post on Whimsicott in the Victory Road Creative Sets thread, I was trying to think of how it could be made viable (contrary to me bashing it in this thread earlier, or I think I did, I'm too lazy to check). I had a thought that I think might work:
Whimsicott @ Red Card / Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn / Encore
- Cotton Guard
- Trick Room
- Memento / U-turn
So first of all what's interesting this set is higher priority Trick Room. Now I know what you're going to say - "Jojobobo, you're such a noob, it doesn't get the same priority as stuff like Quick Attack and Aqua Jet" - which is true, however it does mean it's now -6 priority. So why is that a good thing? Well it means that it now has the same priority as the phazing moves, so without wasting a slot on Taunt you can still Trick Room when face to face with a phazer. Whilst this isn't exactly landmark utility, it can be enough to grab some momentum against an opponent and stop additional hazard damage when you can seem to stop the phazing.
Cotton Guard is there as a clutch to allow you to set Trick Room in the face of scary steel types (so use Cotton Guard, then Trick Room). As it's a +3 boost it really is quite significant, allowing you to survive things like Mega Metagross's Meteor Mash, a +2 252+ Life Orb Iron Head from Bisharp, a 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) or a +2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch even after rocks - it will also out speed any Scizor Bullet Punch with the Priority. It also hard walls Breloom, who can be a pain for Trick Room teams with his high speed Spore.
Using Red Card will phaze these threats out when they hit, and though it can bring out another counter if you leave it until late game there's a good likelihood that they won't have further counters left - it also adds nice utility in that it can be used for numerous other set up sweepers who think they can now clean comfortably. Even if they do bring out a counter, there's always Memento to fall back on to cover the unfavourable switch. Leftovers can be used to improve Whimsicott's longevity, or if you're not a fan of the Red Card mind games.
Whether to use Encore and U-turn or Memento with U-turn is a matter of choice. Encore plus U-turn allows you to come in on a non-damaging or dragon move and use it, Trick Room, then fast U-turn (bringing in something unharmed) to repeat the process again later. Lacking Encore you don't get the same amount of free switch-ins, however Memento is amazing at grabbing Momentum - allowing you to bring in something like Belly Drum Azumarill who is a nightmare in Trick Room - and it's even better with priority. The last option is to use Encore plus Memento, manually switching out Whimsicott when you've Encore locked a pokemon into something annoying then Trick Roomed - reserving Memento if you see a window where an opportunity would be nice.
And there you have it, obviously Whimsicott has some rather significant type weaknesses - but poison isn't too widespread and other coverage should be mostly obvious. It's also no good at taking hard special hits, so don't leave it in vs a Heatran or you will get fried. I'm going to overhaul my team and play test the set out, I'll post up some replays when I have them.
it seems that me and you, Jojobobo , really love to play trick room.. Last night i tried to your ursaring set, and it swept like 3 pokemons..
I will post the replay later, as i played the game in wifi..
But to this point i realize that i always have problem if my trick room setter got KOed, all the TR sweepers become useless.. One of the game i played last night, i got swept by a fre*king durant (X-Scissors FTW)!!! I use cresselia and slowbro as TR setter..
But to this point i realize that i always have problem if my trick room setter got KOed, all the TR sweepers become useless.. One of the game i played last night, i got swept by a fre*king durant (X-Scissors FTW)!!! I use cresselia and slowbro as TR setter..
This is why it is important to have 'fast mode' Pokemon or two. You won't always be able to get TR up, and even then it won't be up indefinitely. Besides having one or two fast pokemon, you should also consider Pokemon that can work well both in and out of TR. For example, Bisharp is strong with TR up, and is still powerful when it is down. Talonflame is also a solid option, as even if TR is up, it can spam priority brave bird assuming it isn't facing off another slower priority user.
In my opinion, Mega Heracross is THE Trick Room sweeper. As TR fixes MegaCross's fatal flaw, Speed. It can even run a -Spe nature to get essentially 2 boosts. Though trick Room isn't exactly mainstream, I think that every team should be prepared for Porygon2 and Mega Heracross. If you couldn't tell, I find Porygon2 to be my favorite Trick Room setter.
it seems that me and you, Jojobobo , really love to play trick room.. Last night i tried to your ursaring set, and it swept like 3 pokemons..
I will post the replay later, as i played the game in wifi..
Glad you liked it. It terms of getting swept when Trick Room is down, you can always go for bulkier sweepers. I posted a Manaphy set in this thread earlier using a Wacan Berry with max HP and max SAtk Tail Glow/Ice Beam/Scald or Surf/Energy Ball. The great thing about it was being water type it has only two weaknesses, and the Wacan Berry effectively makes that one weakness whilst you still have it - plus 100/100/100 defenses are very respectable and better than a lot of the defenses on Trick Room staples. Whilst you may think Manaphy has high base speed for Trick Room, it's really not a huge problem - you outspeed anything neutral natured with full speed investment from base 45 and no investment neutral base 75 - beyond that being able to outspeed things life Clefable, Sylveon and Azumarill outside of Trick Room isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm pretty sure I summarised most of the other points why it's a reasonable set in my first post so I won't go on, but check it out.
This is why it is important to have 'fast mode' Pokemon or two. You won't always be able to get TR up, and even then it won't be up indefinitely. Besides having one or two fast pokemon, you should also consider Pokemon that can work well both in and out of TR. For example, Bisharp is strong with TR up, and is still powerful when it is down. Talonflame is also a solid option, as even if TR is up, it can spam priority brave bird assuming it isn't facing off another slower priority user.
I think all Trick Room teams should have one strong slow priority user as this bypasses the need to an extent of the fast mode, Bellyjet Azumarill being a great example of this. However I think a fast mode, or at least faster mode, is a good idea - not because it's vital to have a fast fallback on a Trick Room team, but because it makes you even harder to play around. Some of the sets I've posted here, particularly Uxie and Whimsicott, are great because they work both for Trick Room and regular set up sweepers by having Memento alongside Trick Room - you can set Trick Room and then Memento and bring in something like Azumarill, or just Memento and bring in a fast set up sweeper. That kind of utility really puts the ball in your court in terms of offense, and I think I'm going to try and shape a new team around that kind of principal.
I thought of a gimmicky Trick Room lead:
Aromatisse@Focus Sash
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252HP/252SpAtk/4Def
Quiet Nature
-Trick Room
-Moonblast
-Aromatherapy
-Energy Ball
You could also run it defensively with Sassy Nature and max SpDef, Wish/Protect, Moonblast, and TR.
What do you think, is it viable? I'd like to use it in OU... I can't decide if focus sash is worth it or not.
I thought of a gimmicky Trick Room lead:
Aromatisse@Focus Sash
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252HP/252SpAtk/4Def
Quiet Nature
-Trick Room
-Moonblast
-Aromatherapy
-Energy Ball
You could also run it defensively with Sassy Nature and max SpDef, Wish/Protect, Moonblast, and TR.
What do you think, is it viable? I'd like to use it in OU... I can't decide if focus sash is worth it or not.
Sash wouldn't be worth it, it's near impossible to OHKO Aromatisse, as long as you run a defensive nature. Just give it Leftovers for passive recovery
I'd go with Relaxed @ Leftovers and 252 HP / 252 Def / 4Sdef, but it might be worth removing a very small amount of Def EVs so you can minimize the chance of Sludge Wave Landorus-I OHKOing. (It's a 25% chance with 4 Sdef)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 374-444 (92.1 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (I think this is the only one that can OHKO from full HP)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 322-382 (79.3 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 299-354 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 338-400 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 354-419 (87.1 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
I thought of a gimmicky Trick Room lead:
Aromatisse@Focus Sash
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252HP/252SpAtk/4Def
Quiet Nature
-Trick Room
-Moonblast
-Aromatherapy
-Energy Ball
You could also run it defensively with Sassy Nature and max SpDef, Wish/Protect, Moonblast, and TR.
What do you think, is it viable? I'd like to use it in OU... I can't decide if focus sash is worth it or not.
Oblivious Slowbro on a TR team caught me off guard and even though I've literally never used trick room I'm curious at all if that's common and/or viable.
Oblivious Slowbro on a TR team caught me off guard and even though I've literally never used trick room I'm curious at all if that's common and/or viable.
Its not as good as regenerator. Generally you want to set up Trick Room and switch to your sweeper, and Regenerator increases Slowbro's ability to survive so it can continue setting up Trick Room.
Oblivious isn't unviable, but it is outclassed by Regenerator's ability to help keep Trick Room up later in the match.
I just started playing using a couple Trick Room teams and I had a couple questions regarding playstyle. It seems as though using more of a balanced team is worse than a setup based heavy offense team like Jojobobo's team. After using a team I made with a core based on Mega-Slowbro, Diancie, and AV-Tangrowth, Jojobobo's team was much more effective and threatening. Of course you wouldn't want to use a stall team but is a setup HO team the best or better playstyle for Trick Room?
So assuming that Greninja gets the ban, or even if it doesn't, I had a rather interesting set for Trick Room I thought I'd run by you all. This set really needs a safe switch, preferably off Memento (Uxie is great at that), but once he's in bad things happen:
Ursaring @ Flame Orb Toxic Orb, see discussion below
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Facade
- Fire Punch / Play Rough / Hammer Arm / Gunk Shot
- One of the above
- Swords Dance
Facade, even without an SD boost, hits horrendously hard with STAB and a Guts attack boost - OHKOing all average bulk pokemon that don't resist. For a bit of perspective it hits even harder than a burnt 252+ Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Facade or a 252+ Landorus-T Explosion. At a +2 it gets even sillier, hitting harder than a +1 252+ Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent - yes you did just read that right. Let's have a look at what that can do:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 411-484 (136.5 - 160.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 343-405 (115.4 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 477-562 (124.2 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 315-372 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 259-306 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 499-588 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 435-513 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 390-460 (120.7 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 352-415 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 375-442 (137.8 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 357-421 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 264-311 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That means unboosted it can OHKO huge portions of the meta game (even things as bulky as offensive Mega Venusaur after rocks) - perfect for a late game clean - but it can also boost to take out resists with Facade and wall break early game; as demonstrated even Mega Metagross and Mega Slowbro after rocks or Multiscale Dragonite aren't safe. This kind of power in one move is huge and when coupled to a Healing Wish user, of which there are many that also have Trick Room and decent bulk, allows you to go for round two even when you do bring it out early. Now let's get onto problematic checks and walls, at least IMO, of Trick Room play:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 378-446 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 360-428 (102.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 484-572 (120 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 301-355 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 651-766 (155 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 398-470 (130.9 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 306-362 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see with the right coverage it can OHKO most things that are difficult for Trick Room teams to handle (Unaware physically defensive Clefable being the No.1 trouble maker from my experience), though if you're going to go toe to toe with Mega Sableye you need to catch it outside of Trick Room or on the mega-evo turn in Trick Room to outspeed. Pick the coverage that best suits your team, but remember at an effective 210 BP Facade (factoring in STAB) will often do more neutral damage than a super effective hit.
In terms of other advantages it offers, not caring about status is pretty huge. Burns are pretty common in the current meta, to not care about them at all is great. The main drawbacks are fairly low bulk and lack of access to priority, but it doesn't need bulk under Trick Room when it hits as hard as it does and the priority issue on a good TR team should already be addressed anyway. It will also take damage for its burns, so Healing Wish recovery is a very good idea.
To summarise:
Pros
* An ungodly powerful Guts Facade which at the +2 surpasses the power (in terms of neutral damage) of a +1 252+ Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent.
* Great coverage that can easily deal with pretty much any typing you want it to.
* Low speed, which is great for Trick Room.
* Can't be afflicted with status after the initial burn.
* Comfortably 2HKOes all Unaware users with Facade (75% chance to OHKO 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable with rocks), and OHKOes them with coverage.
Cons
* Low bulk so you need to think about how to bring it in for free.
* No priority, making it an easy target for priority users.
* Lack of recovery plus burn damage makes its assault unsustainable for many turns, and it will likely need Healing Wish support.
Omg bro Im a pretty well known as one of the greatest trick room players. And I gotta say I was pretty impressed by your uxie and ursaring but if I can put some fixes I wouldn't mind you using one of my Pokemon in cofiguis. It's kinda gimmicky but the play style is pretty straight forward
Cofiguis
252 HP
252 def
4 spedef
Nature: relaxed
Item:leftovers
Ability:mummy
Trick room
Protect
Curse
Will o wisp
Pros: Good psychical wall, recks fighting type, jirachi looses grace through mummy.
Cons: it has no attacks but still a nice trick room settler
to start, Spiritomb doesn't have access to the ability mummy.. I think you mean Cofagrigus. You don't want to waste a turn of Trick Room by using protect, either, and you didn't provide evs. Using Curse to kill yourself takes 2 turns instead of other setters that can memento, healing wish, or explode, so youre wasting a turn. This is not the best way to utilize this pokemon, and seems more of a waste for it seeing as it is strong under Trick Room itself.
to start, Spiritomb doesn't have access to the ability mummy.. I think you mean Cofagrigus. You don't want to waste a turn of Trick Room by using protect, either, and you didn't provide evs. Using Curse to kill yourself takes 2 turns instead of other setters that can memento, healing wish, or explode, so youre wasting a turn. This is not the best way to utilize this pokemon, and seems more of a waste for it seeing as it is strong under Trick Room itself.
Ugh idk it's not letting me copy paste. Anyways it works just fine. memento and explode are a Bad. It's a two turn gimmick and if your good enough you can abuse will o wisp pretty hard. Given it's tremendous def it will cause some problems. But yeah he's the gem in my trick room team
I'm not really experienced with trick room, but I've found that curse is a very good way to take advantage of it. I might be wrong about this but it seems to me it is a very good way of making a teams seem slower then they appear.
I'm not really experienced with trick room, but I've found that curse is a very good way to take advantage of it. I might be wrong about this but it seems to me it is a very good way of making a teams seem slower then they appear.
Just make sure you brought shadow tag/arena trap for the protect abuse ;p there's nothing better then trapping them and not letting get the switch options
Just make sure you brought shadow tag/arena trap for the protect abuse ;p there's nothing better then trapping them and not letting get the switch options
I'm not really experienced with trick room, but I've found that curse is a very good way to take advantage of it. I might be wrong about this but it seems to me it is a very good way of making a teams seem slower then they appear.
The problem with basing entire teams around Trick Room in OU is that in singles there simply aren't enough turns to use it effectively. You already waste one turn just by setting it up (which is dumb fix this game freak) and if you switch out to some abuser you only get 3 turns to sweep your opponent. So why put yourself on a 3 or 4 turn timer with TR when you can use Agility or Rock Polish sweepers that do not have a timer, but work just as effectively at outspeeding everything? Not to mention because the TR users are slow as shit they have to tank at least one hit if setting up or they are susceptible to Taunt, unlike faster pokemon who can set up by threatening an RK / outspeeding Taunt users. There really isn't a good reason to run full TR teams and you are just gimping yourself by using them.***
***the very, very large majority of times
That being said the best use of Trick Room is on standalone pokemon who can learn the move and abuse it themselves. This gives the TR sweeper in question an extra turn to do work, so you don't have to be on your a-game to predict against your opponent stalling out the TR turns. Trick Room's most notable niche is being able to screw over offensive teams by making their high-speed pokemon irrelevant. TBH the only pokemon that really does this effectively is Reuniclus because everything else isn't powerful enough or has better things to do (ex. Victini). Reuniclus has enough bulk to tank a hit and high enough base Special Attack + recoiless Life Orb to put in work. Even then its only seeing usage in tours because of its (IMO better) Calm Mind set.
If you are really set on making a team based around Trick Room, have these things in mind:
Make sure you have a plan against defensive teams or balanced cores.
A lot newer players expect that TR sweepers will clean through teams, only to be stumped by defensive cores. Just make sure that if you use a TR team you can have a poke that can break down these cores either by brute force or lures. Also remember against slower defensive teams it might not be necessary to set up TR and it might be against your favor. For example, a min speed Victini hits 184 speed, which actually outspeeds stuff like Quagsire or Slowbro that could revenge kill it under TR *even after one speed drop from V-Create
Have pokemon that can operate outside Trick Room fairly well
TR isn't always going to go up, so when shit hits the fan have an option that can RK Pokemon, such as Brave Bird Taloflame or Mach Punch Conkeldurr
Uses moves that retain your momentum and switch initiative
Since Trick Room teams are so slow, they can not give opponents oppurtunities to set up and potentially 6-0. In addition, by using moves that switch a TR setter out, you insure your sweepers don't have to take unnecessary damage so they would be more easily revenge killed. A good example of this is ben gay 's old TR team from BW. It's really the only TR team that I've seen have any success, so take a look at it if your looking for ideas. Anyway, he uses OTR Bronzong with Explosion and Healing Wish Cresselia to bring in his TR sweepers safely while still threatening the opponent.
If you keep that in mind you will have a *decent* team, but really full TR teams aren't usable.
