Team Fortress 2 - The Official Discussion Thread

[Mr Escalator]

The airblast is now what it should have originally been, but the damage on his primary attraction (flames = pyro) is a joke. It's on par with a spy's revolver, on a class listed as one of the three offensive classes. Hell, the Pyro was cited as the King of CQC; It wasn't really 100% true pre-update, but now that he was nerfed it's dreadfully clear that his DPS is beyond lacking for what he is intended to be.

I originally thought the pros of the new airblast outweighed the cons, right as the update came out, but then it became painfully clear that it isn't close to outweighing the penalties to his damage output. Realistically, the new airblast helps in one matchup toe-to-toe; the Soldier. It's now even more likely to beat good soldiers, which is awesome to hear. Otherwise, the new airblast is mainly utility oriented, and I don't even need to list off the numerous uses of it. Unfortunately, the utility wasn't worth the desecration of what the class was MEANT to be; the King of CQC.

They made the third-ish worst class into the second worst class, only to Engineer, who will be getting an update really soon. We can only hope they buff up his damage ramp up at pointblank when they release the update, so that he keeps his awesome utility while staying true to the class' goal.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think the thing that everyone is ignoring is that now it actually gives people a reason to USE the Backburner. The Pyro now has to choose between damage output and utility, which I believe is an important distinction. They still have solid damage output in close quarters PLUS the burn, but now the choice to deal damage comes at the expense of the Airblast.

As someone who plays a solid amount of Pyro, I find myself more often toggling back and forth between the Flamethrower and the Backburner, and I find this to be a good thing most of the time. The Flamethrower is more defensive and general purpose, helping shield allies from Soldier rockets and Demoman grenades and push enemies off of the point making them much easier to dispatch, while the Backburner does more damage and rewards being stealthy and breaking away from the team for a solid ambush.

 

[Mr Escalator]

The sad thing is that the damage output is so bad on the regular flamethrower now that people are thinking that it's a good thing that they are now sidegrades of each other. Unfortunately, there was little reason pre-nerf to use the BB; its damage output and crits from behind was not worth losing the airblast. Now that Flamethrower is really nerfed, BB is turning "acceptable" just because it was close to the damage previously (BB only does 96% of what it originally did). I like the concept of the two weapons being sidegrades and worth switching around for, but if anything BB should have just gotten a buff instead of them ruining flamethrower's damage output.

"They still have solid damage output in close quarters PLUS the burn" The flamethrower does like 3 damage more per second than the pistol up close, and the afterburn was nerfed solidly (what was it again, 30 damage in all?). The backburner is close to what the old flamethrower had for damage, minus the airblast.

They made one of the weakest combat classes weaker just because they wanted to nerf a tactic that didn't work against competent players (W+M1, what a joke), and they assumed more utilities would be a fair trade off, which isn't the case at all. It's also unfortunate that he still has no increased mobility/utility towards getting to key ambush areas and paths to flank foes. He is as much an ambush class as the heavy, y'know, minus the 500 dps...

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

"suck it"

Flamethrower Changes:

• Increased base damage 10%
• Afterburn duration increased (from 6 to 10)
• Flares that hit a burning player at mid-to-long range will crit
• Reduced Backburner damage bonus from 20% to 15%

Yeah, so now the pyro has a bunch of neat new toys. No more afterburn nerf, flare gun can be used as a mid-range puff followup option as well as 2hkoing snipers, Backburner gets a minor damage buff, etc.

The one change I'd like to see is airblast getting something like the Force-a-Nature's ability, and allow Pyros to jump higher with it. It might prove interesting at the very least.

 

[Surgo]

I thought flares already crit against players on fire, long-range or no.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Nope. Neat buff, though.

 

[cobaph]

How was the pyro supposed to play with Flamethrower? Just run in while flaming? They give you airblast for a reason, and airblast greatly controls the enemy. With the buff now, it's ridiculous, even with the tiny 20% damage decrease. Now that it's 10%, it's slightly better than the "big nerf." If you didn't plan to airblast, then just go BB.

 

[Zeromus EG]

I thought flares already crit against players on fire, long-range or no.

They got mini-crits before I think, though I think that was against burning players at any range.

 

[A.K. Swashbuckler]

Sweet, now we just need a way for the Pyro to kill something without juggling his weapons like a retard while the Soldier can just fuck off and do whatever he wants and still be able to kill anything more easily and effectively.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

The pyro has the VERY distinct advantage of never having to reload, as well as being significantly faster, and either dealing massive, massive damage in rear ambush with the Backburner or being able to just push enemies and projectiles out of the way with airblast.

I think that you guys are all failing to see the "big picture" here. The pyro is being transitioned away from a "w+m1 rape train" class, and these buffs are all emphasizing it as a situation utility class. Think about it: what does the Pyro do best?

• "counters" Ubers by Airblasting them out of the way or airblasting the Medic away from his target. The Airblast buff makes it easier for a single pyro to manage this job, and significantly easier for two Pyros to just cockblock a hasty Ubercharge.
• Keeping enemies off of the point/payload. Again, a combination of airblast and high DPS aoe damage makes the Pyro excel at this.
• Making Spies go away. The very existence of the Pyro makes this effective, and I believe that one of the reasons that the flamethrower burn duration nerf was removed is because it made the Pyro "worse" at his job by making it easier for Spies tagged by the Flamethrower to make it out alive, since they needed to run away cloaked 40% less after being puffed. Also, Homewrecker allows Pyros to be EVEN BETTER Spy counters now that they can puff the spy AND save the sentry/dispenser/teleporter.
• Protecting points/rushes from enemy Demoman/Soldier fire. Again, Airblast buff emphasizes the fact that Pyros should optimally be taking point and blasting pills, stickies, and rockets away from Sentries and out of the way of a big charge.
• Capitalizing on getting BEHIND the enemy at close range. Backburner gives the Pyro close-range offense rivaled only by the Heavy, except with SIGNIFICANTLY better mobility, speed, and ability to get into place. With the Heavy, you have to make a bunch of noise and roll up on the opponent super-slowly before you can open fire. The Pyro delivers instant death at close range with high mobility, without the Scout's frailty or need to constantly reload.

People are still playing him as a basic combat class, when that's not what he's meant to be played as in the slightest. Of course a Soldier or a Demoman or a Heavy is going to be a better "direct combat class", and expecting a Pyro to outperform them is bullshit. Play the Pyro as a utility class, and he's a superstar.

 

[cobaph]

^Exactly what I wanted to say but am too lazy to do so!

Pyro isn't just about running around puffing fire at anything that moves, and the airblast makes it pretty obvious. If you're complaining about the flamethrower nerf, then you probably don't use airblast enough to know that you aren't missing too much. A lot of people who play Backburner style stick with Flamethrower because the airblast is there in case of emergency, making its use extremely situational. If you want to play that way so badly, just go Backburner. Flamethrowers are for people who USE the airblast, and this buff puts emphasis on that.

A "King of CQC" doesn't charge into the frontlines where CQC is unlikely.

 

[Minwu]

I've been following competitive TF2 for forever now, and I finally got the game last free weekend and a new laptop. Game's fucking awesome, it'd be cool to play with you guys some time =]

My Steam is minwu325.

 

[RBG]

So what does everyone think of the Engineer update so far?

For reference:

Frontier Justice: (Replaces Shotgun)
- 50% Smaller Clip
- No Random Crits
+ Instead Revenge Crits
+ Upon Destruction of Sentry gun in anyway, Frontier Justice gets 2 Guaranteed Crits for each kill the Sentry got and 1 for each assist

The Wrangler: (Replaces Pistol)
+Engineer can aim and control Sentry Gun
- While Controlled, it can't choose it's own targets
+ Shield that reduces damage to sentry by 66%
+ Doubles Firing Rate and Missile Launch Rate
- Sentry is defenseless after you switch away from Wrangler for 3 seconds

 

[Minwu]

They both look pretty neat. I'll be replacing my Shotgun for sure, at least. I've been trying for a golden wrench here and there but no luck =[

http://www.teamfortress.com/engineerupdate/engineer_photos/

Anyone else notice this secret page? Looks to me like it could allude to Engineers somehow being able to relocate built sentries and retain their upgrade progress.

 

[Thorns]

foxtrot_04, add me

the ability to haul buildings around without destroying them was confirmed in the new achivement. also, there is a guitar that can kill

 

[Layell]

I'm really itching to play with the Engy update. Easily my most played class. Looks much better than the demo update, (I don't play soldier, so I never really cared).

I can already see some crazy ideas like Engy's making lines of mini sentries, controlling them, then once killed going crazy with the FJ.

Although I always was fond of the pistol for long distance damage, but this soon may pass.

Also looks like we got a new community wrench, which like the shiv causes bleeding, but oh joyo makes you weaker to pyro's flames, an interesting tradeoff, it might be used more than the regular wrench then if people can't stand not having a level 3 sentry.

 

[Nomad]

I've just gotten the wrangler through the drop system. I don't think it's very good at all. Frontier Justice and The Gunslinger look excellent though.

foxtrot_04, add me

the ability to haul buildings around without destroying them was confirmed in the new achivement. also, there is a guitar that can kill

The guitar is just the Frontier Justice's taunt. :/

 

[PK Gaming]

AMAZING updates on Valve's part. Good to see that the Frontier Justice and Gunsliger are balanced AND fun to use!

Unfortunately for us Engy fans the Wrangler is completely broken... I foresee it getting nerfed :(
(which always makes me sad)

 

[Imran]

Damn Sentries!

 

[Minwu]

The best part of the Wrangler is being able to rocket jump with it. :D Actually controlling it isn't really all that bad in itself, considering both you and the sentry have to be in sight of your target. I'd have to choose between Frontier Justice, Wrangler, and the Normal Wrench or Frontier Justice, Pistol, and Gunslinger. To balance the Wrangler I'd think they'd only really need to make the Engi himself more vulnerable while controlling a turret. Slow him down, lower his HP, or something.

 

[fohg]

i've been looking at this game in stores and stuff, and i've convinced myself not to buy it atleast three times. i play games like cod and bad co2, and none of the gameplay videos that i watch of this game seem to convince me that it's worth getting. anyway, the questions i wanted to ask were: are there any classes that are better than others? are there higher tiered weapons?

 

[Layell]

i've been looking at this game in stores and stuff, and i've convinced myself not to buy it atleast three times. i play games like cod and bad co2, and none of the gameplay videos that i watch of this game seem to convince me that it's worth getting. anyway, the questions i wanted to ask were: are there any classes that are better than others? are there higher tiered weapons?

Well to be honest there is no class that is "better" than the rest. Each class has it's own use. Not to say that in every match each class can be used equally but each is fair.

Every class is given 3 weapons, their primary, secondary, and melee, (certain classes have extra weapons for other functions like the spy's disguise kit and engineers toolbox).

Valve has also released for the game new weapon packs for each class which are free, they just finished the last one for the Engineer. In theory they are all supposed to be balanced to their default, it isn't always perfect (melee weapons with special abilities are almost always used compared to defaults)

While playing as one class you will never be able to handle each class, which is why they call it Team Fortress. A team with the right proportion of classes, and being flexible in switching classes can be very effective.

And honestly even at 19.99 it has more content than most FPS games in my opinion, that and it never stops getting updated.

EDIT:

Although some classes are easier to play than others, Pyro has always been deemed the newbie class, and the spy can be really difficult if you don't know the map very well.

 

[fohg]

thanks for the info, ControllerOfFlames. balance is always nice, especially when i'm coming from the world of commando and the M16. i think i'll get this and try it out for myself.

 

[Thorns]

pyro is the newbie class because w+m1 wrecks crap players in pubs. skillful use of a pyro was outlined by sds in a previous post. if you decide to buy it (do), start out with soldier, since it's a very easy class to pick up and play, even if you aren't a master of rocketjumping.

 

[Minwu]

i've been looking at this game in stores and stuff, and i've convinced myself not to buy it atleast three times. i play games like cod and bad co2, and none of the gameplay videos that i watch of this game seem to convince me that it's worth getting. anyway, the questions i wanted to ask were: are there any classes that are better than others? are there higher tiered weapons?

Along with what most other people mentioned, it's a pretty different game from CoD. There's a lot less focus on reflexes(it depends on the class, though) than there is on tactics, which there's a wide variety of.