Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Good counters for roaring moon? Once it gets one dragon dance it outspends everything I have with 139 base attack and good coverage moves.
Unfortunately, that depends on its Tera type. Fighting priority beats regular and Steel Tera versions, but gets wrecked by Tera Flying. E-killer Dragonite could hit the regular and Tera Flying for neutral priority, but would lose to something like Tera Steel. Unaware mons can ignore the stat boosts, but it still hits hard.

There is no single counter because the potential Tera type changes so much and there's often no way to know until it's steam rolling through your entire team.

Try Flame Body Talonflame, I’ve heard it’s a magic band-aid for all the meta’s problems.
Even as a joke, that straw man isn't very clean.
 
Both elephants, Torkoal and Hatterene are mons that are extremely viable that also can kill Gholdengo to then spin, or really discourage your opponent from spamming their hazards. Torkoal is sun exclusive yes but that's a super viable archetype right now. And I don't think you even need to bring any of these to beat hazard stacking teams, ofc it makes it much harder but as many have said you can limit the amount of hazards your opponent gets to stack by applying pressure and then you can use Gholdengo switching in as free U-turn to let a strong sweeper in. Also there's Heavyduty-boots which mostly invalidates that strat and are difficult to get rid off because of limited Knock Off distribution.

it's not like when in ORAS you had to bring Scarf Greninja or Scarf Noivern to beat Mega-Salamence because otherwise you got 6-0'd. Hazard stack is powerful but it's not like you auto lose if you don't bring some niche bullshit like Defog Lurantis or smth, there's plenty of viable counterplay that would still be used regardless of Gholdengo getting banned or not.
 
Do you have replays of these tests? Where on ladder are you testing Talonflame? I’m curious as to exactly what I’m missing here.

It's basically just Moltres Lite, you fish for flame body burns on u turns and rapid spins and stuff then either u turn out yourself or defog or w/e. also even with max bulk investment flamethrower still 2hkos gholdengo so that's cool. yeah its not particularly great at killing anything else, but it does matchup decently into stuff like the donphans or scizor.
 
Good counters for roaring moon? Once it gets one dragon dance it outspends everything I have with 139 base attack and good coverage moves.
Iron defence Corv completely walls unless it’s tera fire. Teams commonly only have a chi-yu to efficiently dispatch it so it’s a pretty nice wall to build around in my experience.
 
The gholdengo issue isn’t about how difficult or easy it is to deal with gholdengo, it’s more so about how much it affects viable strategies…

slower and/or passive teams basically need to run 4+ HDB’s. Gholdengo diminishes the value of defensive play thanks to hazard removal blocking and status move immunity.

Gholdengo itself is not an issue at all, it’s just an extremely useful Pokémon that can work on just about any team, and has value against all other teams. In a hypothetical where all Pokémon are released, I’m sure it will be a staple OU pick, but likely not as potent as it currently is.

personally really a fan of the gholdengo meta, but if you’re trying to be subjective and fair, it really does make it easy for offensive teams to steamroll passive teams. And if they become too difficult to manage, you add some knock off support to remove their HDBs because they sure can’t remove the hazards.
 
Gholdenego needs correct predictions, but it can be dealt with tbh. I think it's still an A+ tier mon that needs to be thought about when teambuilding.

What's more difficult to deal with is Chi-yu, the fast reduce-your-spDef firefish.

In sun, a scarfed Chi-yu without any boosts can 2hko Chansey and Blissey. Yeap.

492 speed, timid nature. Either tera fighting or tera fire for increasing the stab from 1.5x to 2x. (basically Adaptability)

Run modest nature + specs tera fire fireblast and it might even Ohko Chansey / Blissey in sun. Yeap.

With a special attack, without weakness. Thats how broken OP it is.

vote quickban on Chi-Yu untill we get Heatran!
 
I don't know about anything else, but every teamstyle I've tried so far just seems...bad. Like I've played around with BO, Screens, Hazard Stack, and Sun a lot lately, but nothing seems to be doing anything for me. For reference, I was able to hang around the 1600s at the end of last gen, but for the past month I've haven't been able to even hit 1400. I'm not sure if that's just a fluke or if I'm just bad, but overall, I have no idea why nothing's been working for me.
 

658Greninja

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I think we should treat Gholdengo and the spikes heavy metagame like we would for DPP OU or BW NU, most notably BW NU. Both tiers have the characteristic of having a limited pool of removers and great spinblockers. The same applies to SV OU except with a more dominant spinblocker in Gholdengo.

Luckily this generation is blessed with a great spinner in Great Tusks and the addition of Boots from Gen 8 which negates hazards. I think we were just so spoiled from Gen 7 and Gen 8’s hazard control that we forgot how to play in a metagame with minimal hazard control.

Right now we have bigger fish to fry with Chi, Ape, Pao, Shed Tail and Tera. I personally don’t think Ghold’s influence on the meta is the problem right now. It is alot easier to deal with that than trying to find a switch in to Chi-Yu that isn’t Ttar or Roaring Moon.
 
I don't know about anything else, but every teamstyle I've tried so far just seems...bad. Like I've played around with BO, Screens, Hazard Stack, and Sun a lot lately, but nothing seems to be doing anything for me. For reference, I was able to hang around the 1600s at the end of last gen, but for the past month I've haven't been able to even hit 1400. I'm not sure if that's just a fluke or if I'm just bad, but overall, I have no idea why nothing's been working for me.
In my experience everything other than hyperoffense feels pretty bad at the moment. People have had success with other styles but you really need to play much better than your opponent in any given game to win.
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
Right now we have bigger fish to fry with Chi, Ape, Pao, Shed Tail and Tera. I personally don’t think Ghold’s influence on the meta is the problem right now. It is alot easier to deal with that than trying to find a switch in to Chi-Yu that isn’t Ttar or Roaring Moon.
Literally this, Chi Yu forces things like Gastro, AV Ttar, max investment Clodsire (and even he can get fried by Psychic) and the amount of secondary effects like the spedef drop, burn chance or flinch is just too much, I also pair chi yu with Sylveon and Dondozo a lot, I love this core, because wish provides both insane sustentability, chi yu can get an easier time to get on the field with hazards, Dondozo shits on AV titar and Roaring Moon, and Gastro is not too much of a fan either thanks to body press, Sylveon can also beat Skeleridge 1v1 with Shadow Ball, this is an insane core that iss so good

Ape is is a problem because your forced to run special walls, and even tho is extremly dangerous, its posible to play around Ape, this thing is not broken

Pao is broken since day 1, the only thing that can consistently take his shit is Dondozo, and he is tasked with A LOT, i hate this mon

Shed tail yeah its kinda funny, because every HO team is
Glimmora
Grimmsnarl
Cyclizar
Espathra
2 other broken mons
 
Hyper offense is def really strong right now but don't think it means other playstyles are unviable. Ive gotten walked over by better players than me running BO or Stall. Its not always espartha speed boost go brrrr. I was never much of a stall player so can't say much for how to do that successfully but I have had some luck with fatter offensive teams using hazard stack. Not sure if that would qualify as BO or HO, but that at least seems like a legitimate option.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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Gholdengo is an interesting Pokémon because I don't think it's broken where you can't do anything when it comes out. In reality its quite polarizing Pokémon because it blocks Defog / Rapid spin which in prior generations was so easy to get off as long you weren't taunted or a ghost. Gholdengo will be the Landorus-Therian of Gen 9 in terms of popularity because entry hazard clearance is a big part of the game and if you can block that via a Pokémon why wouldn't you add to your team?

Landorus-Therian never needed to be banned but it was such a polarizing Pokémon on it did everything, defogger, set up rocks, status, solid physical attack, good bulk, intimidate etc. Gholdengo feels like an All-in-one type of Pokémon on what it brings to the table.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Gholdengo is an interesting Pokémon because I don't think it's broken where you can't do anything when it comes out. In reality its quite polarizing Pokémon because it blocks Defog / Rapid spin which in prior generations was so easy to get off as long you weren't taunted or a ghost. Gholdengo will be the Landorus-Therian of Gen 9 in terms of popularity because entry hazard clearance is a big part of the game and if you can block that via a Pokémon why wouldn't you add to your team?
Gholdengo puts more of a strain on teambuilding than Lando ever did. There were plenty of viable answers to Lando (although nothing could switch into every set Lando could conceivably run). Gholdengo has exactly two viable answers and they’re both Donphan.
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
Well guys I just encountered my first revival blessing pawmot and OH MY FUCKING GOD THIS IS FRUSTRATING AS SHIT
Screens + shed tail + magic bounce + every broken setter on earth, bro you fighting against 8 pokemon if your using leppa berry, thats a numerical disadvantage btw, and now that anhiliape has 1 BU and has tera water and he is looking at you like if he was Augustus Gloop and your the fucking chocolate river, and yes, im seetheing

I also realized that fighting type stack is kinda broken, you might be able to take on great tusk, but how about Tusk + ape or ape + pawmot or maybe Breloom to the mix, Corv is taking L´s just by existing, and phisically defensive mons that can take on a combination of Fighting + either ground or electric and grass is small, unironically, :Chesnaught: would be able to just shit on all of these with ease, man Chesnaught would have been so good in this meta, but now i have to scrap for things

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Tera Blast/Shadow Ball

In theory this should beat any fighting type 1v1 that its not Iron Valiant, in practice idk really
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
Gholdengo puts more of a strain on teambuilding than Lando ever did. There were plenty of viable answers to Lando (although nothing could switch into every set Lando could conceivably run). Gholdengo has exactly two viable answers and they’re both Donphan.
theres actually another viable answer, and you guessed it, its the other donphan
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Well guys I just encountered my first revival blessing pawmot and OH MY FUCKING GOD THIS IS FRUSTRATING AS SHIT
Screens + shed tail + magic bounce + every broken setter on earth, bro you fighting against 8 pokemon if your using leppa berry, thats a numerical disadvantage btw, and now that anhiliape has 1 BU and has tera water and he is looking at you like if he was Augustus Gloop and your the fucking chocolate river, and yes, im seetheing
Hard agree on this one. Revival Blessing is one of the only things in the current meta I’d describe as outright uncompetitive instead of merely broken (the other being Shed Tail).
 
Gholdengo puts more of a strain on teambuilding than Lando ever did. There were plenty of viable answers to Lando (although nothing could switch into every set Lando could conceivably run). Gholdengo has exactly two viable answers and they’re both Donphan.
So Gholdengo is the only spinblocker that loses to the 2 best spinners in the tier and that's a strain on teambuilding?
Gholdengo doesn't even always beat Corviknight because everything it does is telegraphed.
U-turn out a few times on it and you can just Defog once your own hazards wear it down or if you condition your opponent to not switch it into Corviknight when they think you are just gonna U-turn again.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
So Gholdengo is the only spinblocker that loses to the 2 best spinners in the tier and that's a strain on teambuilding?
Gholdengo doesn't even always beat Corviknight because everything it does is telegraphed.
U-turn out a few times on it and you can just Defog once your own hazards wear it down or if you condition your opponent to not switch it into Corviknight when they think you are just gonna U-turn again.
Could we get a replay of that last thing actually happening? I’d like to have an example of how to play around Gholdengo that we can all use before it gets banned.
 
Running into some problems with iron valiant. Is choice scarfing my own IV advisable? Max special attack and kill opposing IVs with moonblast.
I wouldn't say it's a bad set, particularly. Scarf Val can help out against shit like Pult, Chi-Yu (!!!), Moon, Chien-Pao, and DD Bax, so it's never a bad option. Only issue is that a lot of Val run Booster Energy to grab a Speed boost to try and sweep. This is a really, REALLY good set, given that Val is one of the very fastest 'mons in the game at +1, not to mention that Fairy STAB with Electric and Ghost coverage for Corv, Dirge, and Goldie is really hard to switch into in this meta.

I like to pack at least some offensive/defensive counterplay to Valiant on any given team (Scarf Goldie, Scizor, Corv, Amoongus, etc.), but the only issue with Scarf Val in my opinion is that, depending on your team style, you're not running Scarf Gholdengo, one of the single most consistent game-to-game performers in the entire tier. Not to mention Goldie completely stuffs non-Booster Val (on any Val that can't hit it super effectively), so if you want something that offensively checks Val, I would always go for that. The massive utility of blocking status, Defog, and to an extent Grimmsnarl on top of being insanely strong in your own right makes it by leaps and bounds the best Scarfer in the tier (maybe second to Chi-Yu atm), but again, if your team really needs what Val provides, it's a perfectly fine set.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
right, i'm going to weigh in on the discussion around gholdengo, because the primary arguments fail to understand the function gholdengo performs on the problematic archetypes it appears on, its power level, & its influence on the meta.

~~~~~

the first, most common argument is one of "exploiting gholdengo", usually via means of u-turning with corv (6% chip on goldie in exchange for rocks damage on corv, & rocks+spikes on the incoming mon. incredible trade.), or predicting it on the switch with your spinner, etc. the oversight in this argument is that, in both cases, hazards remain on the field. this is seen by any decent ho player as a more-than-acceptable scenario, as gholdengo has already done its job. keeping hazards up is the core principle of hazards ho, and gholdengo does this with a level of ease & consistency unlike anything we have ever seen before.

furthermore, any decent hazards ho will have means to abuse the spinners (tusk/treads) should they manage to eliminate gholdengo. for example, here is a (suboptimal but fun) team that demonstrates this. here we have iron valiant, which either a) revenge kills the spinner, leaving hazards up still, or b) applies intense pressure whilst hazards are up. not only this, we have tera water sd duckster, & balloon gholdengo to limit the options of tusk/treads, dissuading them from clicking earthquake, forcing them to break the balloon first or knock off on the switch.

~~~~~

now, on to speak about gholdengo's power level. it is my belief, irrespective of good as gold, that gholdengo is too powerful. this discussion is absent, though, as all anyone is talking about is its influence in the hazards game, and the discussion around a couple of more obviously broken pokemon such as chi-yu overshadows any discussion around gholdengo in this regard. another factor contributing to this is that is the chaotic state of the new meta, and as the meta becomes more stable, there will be a flourishing in exploring other sets than balloon & scarf (some are already doing this btw).

here is what gholdengo is: an incredibly versatile pokemon, with the possibility to run many viable sets (sub plot lefties, balloon plot, t-wave plot/hex, scarf, specs, etc.). along with this, it has an insane set of stab moves, perfect coverage, one of the best typings in the game (hello g6 aegi), plot, great stats, & trick. the result of this is that gholdengo is effectively uncounterable. some have said that home might normalise this, but unfortunately, not only is this irrelevant as we're months away from that, it is also just incorrect. it possesses an infinite capacity to adapt to any metagame shifts that may mitigate its power. really, though, it won't necessarily need to adapt, as balloon & trick+scarf already negate any viable, reliable answers.

~~~~~

regarding its position in the meta, i assert that gholdengo has an undue level of influence in the meta compared to its peers, & is destabilising. other than tera, which is currently the very fabric of the meta, there is nothing with more influence in the general structure of the meta than gholdengo.

should gholdengo's presence remain, i don't think we will ever see the end of the easy layers/screens+gholdengo teams. granted, gholdengo isn't the only element that makes these teams problematic, as some credit goes to annihilape & cyclizar, but gholdengo is undoubtedly the linchpin, and these teams will continue to constitute a sizeable portion of the meta. not only this, there is a common & powerful archetype of non-ho teams featuring a spiker (such as ting-lu) & gholdengo. gholdengo's negation of removal will continue to be problematic on those teams, too.

~~~~~
in conclusion: the issues with gholdengo will only intensify & become more apparent as the more pressing issues are resolved & the meta matures. i cannot foresee any path for development that the metagame can take with gholdengo around that produces a well-rounded, stable, & deeply competitive meta.
 
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