Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[TheRealBigC]

Personally though, I would keep Gholdengo on the backburner and see what home brings us to deal with it, because it sounds like we are getting a lot of pokemon that can actually shut down Gholdengo.

Cinderace in particular, sounds like an incredible answer to Gholdengo.

This is probably true, but I think Gholdengo deserves a suspect in the meantime between now and whenever Home drops. However, it's not as egregious as stuff like Tera and Cyclizar so whether one will actually materialize in time is doubtful

If Spikes is the problem, suspect Spikes, if it's not a problem, then neither is Gholdengo.
The low amount of defoggers relative to the high amount of Spike users is 100% the problem here, not Gholdengo.
Corviknight is literally the only thing that Gholdengo stops that other Ghosts don't.
Ban Gholdengo and hazard spam is still going to bully every team not running Corviknight.
What do we do after Gholdengo gets banned? Run Corviknight on every team?

Banning Gholdengo for hazard stacking is so backwards. Back in previous gens where DeoSharp was terrorizing OU we banned the Deo half, not the Sharp half.

I see where you're coming from, but Gholdengo is so much better at spinblocking than basically every other Ghost (besides maybe Annihilape and Tera Skeledirge) that to say Gholdengo being banned won't make any difference to hazard removal besides enabling Corv is fallacious. Hazard stacking would undoubtedly be very strong even after a hypothetical Gholdengo ban, but I don't think it would be quite as centralising as it currently is. The other thing I would say about Gholdengo is that is extremely strong and versatile beyond Defog blocking, but the Defog blocking pushes it over the edge to being a really strong and splashable mon to being banworthy imo. Banning Spikes when it's obvious Gholdengo is one of the biggest enablers of the hazard stack meta would be unprecedented and itself backwards. You can't say whether Spikes would still be broken without Gholdengo cockblocking so much hazard removal. It makes more sense to see what Spikes are like without Gholdengo in the equation rather than immediately moving to ban such an integral part of the meta outright

 

[kosecant]

Hot take, but I think that spikes have always been (theoretically) better than rocks, they’ve just always had far smaller distribution than rocks. Now that we have many viable spike setters we’re starting to see how impactful they truly can be. Gholdengo makes the issue worse, but hazard stack is probably going to stay a dominant strategy whether or not he stays. To me it’s a nice change of pace considering how mid hazards were in SwSh, even if it is an over correction

 

[alephgalactus]

Hot take, but I think that spikes have always been (theoretically) better than rocks, they’ve just always had far smaller distribution than rocks. Now that we have many viable spike setters we’re starting to see how impactful they truly can be. Gholdengo makes the issue worse, but hazard stack is probably going to stay a dominant strategy whether or not he stays. To me it’s a nice change of pace considering how mid hazards were in SwSh, even if it is an over correction

Well, Spikes were definitely better than Stealth Rock in Gens 2 and 3, I can at least agree on that much.

 

[SuperMarioPoke]

Well, Spikes were definitely better than Stealth Rock in Gens 2 and 3, I can at least agree on that much.

If every mon that can learn sr in past gens had spikes instead would th

This is probably true, but I think Gholdengo deserves a suspect in the meantime between now and whenever Home drops. However, it's not as egregious as stuff like Tera and Cyclizar so whether one will actually materialize in time is doubtful

I see where you're coming from, but Gholdengo is so much better at spinblocking than basically every other Ghost (besides maybe Annihilape and Tera Skeledirge) that to say Gholdengo being banned won't make any difference to hazard removal besides enabling Corv is fallacious. Hazard stacking would undoubtedly be very strong even after a hypothetical Gholdengo ban, but I don't think it would be quite as centralising as it currently is. The other thing I would say about Gholdengo is that is extremely strong and versatile beyond Defog blocking, but the Defog blocking pushes it over the edge to being a really strong and splashable mon to being banworthy imo. Banning Spikes when it's obvious Gholdengo is one of the biggest enablers of the hazard stack meta would be unprecedented and itself backwards. You can't say whether Spikes would still be broken without Gholdengo cockblocking so much hazard removal. It makes more sense to see what Spikes are like without Gholdengo in the equation rather than immediately moving to ban such an integral part of the meta outright

I refuse to believe spikes is worthy of suspect. Gholdengo is a crazy mon, with one of the best abilities ever made slapped onto a Pokémon with the best typing, strong stabs, and good base stats. Hot take, but gholdengo will be suspect tested before current uber mons after home comes out.

Edit: I don’t think he is suspect worthy purely off the above, but how much the format bends due to his existence.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Don’t be hard on yourself!

oh god,I phrased it badly.
I am okay with being on the low tiers.
I wasn't being sarcastic or anything when I said"ok thanks".
no I am not dead inside,no I am not sad/depressed either about my lack of skills,I am having fun playing competitive and that's what matters the most.

 

[MeddlinKidz]

Thoughts on two mons:

First, Glimmora is easily my favorite mon this gen. I've mostly used the hazards set, but it has a wide enough movepool to do quite a bit of other things. The typing isn't too bad defensively and this thing is just made to set hazards. Love this mon. Also one of the core members of my in-game team, but thats not relevant for this discussion.

Second, on Pawmot. I think this pokemon actually has some fringe viability outside of Revival Blessing. I have been running an Iron Fist set with the main goal of being a revenger on a hazard stack team. Dual Shock hits a lot of threats hard, Ice Punch is good coverage, and Mach is a good check to non-tera Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao. I have only clicked Revival Blessing a few times but this mon has put in work in other games. I wouldn't call it stellar by any means, but its maybe a tier C mon on its own. Revival Blessing is a ridiculous utility tool, but I didn't feel like I was using it that much. As is, I still feel we should ban the move as it is ludicrously uncompetitive, but that is a debate for later in the gen.

 

[Askeia]

I see where you're coming from, but Gholdengo is so much better at spinblocking than basically every other Ghost (besides maybe Annihilape and Tera Skeledirge) that to say Gholdengo being banned won't make any difference to hazard removal besides enabling Corv is fallacious. Hazard stacking would undoubtedly be very strong even after a hypothetical Gholdengo ban, but I don't think it would be quite as centralising as it currently is. The other thing I would say about Gholdengo is that is extremely strong and versatile beyond Defog blocking, but the Defog blocking pushes it over the edge to being a really strong and splashable mon to being banworthy imo. Banning Spikes when it's obvious Gholdengo is one of the biggest enablers of the hazard stack meta would be unprecedented and itself backwards. You can't say whether Spikes would still be broken without Gholdengo cockblocking so much hazard removal. It makes more sense to see what Spikes are like without Gholdengo in the equation rather than immediately moving to ban such an integral part of the meta outright

There are only 4 Ghost types in OU, and you listed half of them in the "except" category, which doesn't really say anything about Gholdengo's "so much better" spinblocking ability. Gholdengo is literally weak to the 2 best spinners and has to carry balloon AND them not carrying Knock Off to stop the spin. Meanwhile something like Annihilape and Tera Ghost Garganacl fully stop even if they do carry Knock Off.
The reality is that Gholdengo itself is a victim of Spikes, since it's switch in to a prospect Defogger is very telegraphed. A lot of Corviknight users in the higher ladder have been adapting around Gholdengo by U-turning out on the very very telegraphed switch in to wear Gholdengo itself down with their own Spiker in Tinglu or Garchomp. People who don't want to deal with Corviknight mindgames can and will run something that can Defog into Gholdengo, there's nothing wrong with it when we have less than 5 viable Defoggers to begin with.
To clarify, I really don't think Spikes is a problem; Spikes is only the primary symptom of some of the clearly overpowered things in the meta like Cyclizar, and perhaps Tera as a whole. The thing is though, if Spikes is the primary symptom, Gholdengo is something like the thertiary or quarternary symptom, and banning it won't change anything if everything preceding it are still present.
A post-Gholdengo-ban meta will just be Corviknight on every team because nothing is spinning on Tera Ghost Skeledirge or Garganacl.

 

[alephgalactus]

A post-Gholdengo-ban meta will just be Corviknight on every team because nothing is spinning on Tera Ghost Skeledirge or Garganacl.

Except Tera’s also on the radar. If Tera and Gholdengo both get the axe, spinblocking’s a lot less of a problem because Great Tusk just eats every viable spinblocker except Annihilape (and because there’s no other Pokémon right now who’s immune to both Normal and Poison, so Mortal Spin Glimmora goes from “punchline” to “actual option”).

 

[escarlata]

I’m probably the most sadistic person ever because I think Defog blocking is the best thing that happened to competitive Pokemon ever since the Defog buff in Gen 6 ruined it. The lead vs lead matchup in Gen 4 alone is still evolving even after 15+ years, partly because there wasn't a 100% assured way of removing hazards. (and partly because there was no team preview)

Setting up hazards is not as free as many people seem to believe. If you are allowing your opponent to set up multiple layer of hazards, then your opponent is likely in a positional advantage to begin with. Allowing the opponent to set up SR and 2-3 layers of Spikes means you gave the opponent 3-4 turns without applying any pressure, and if you include the turn where you fail to read the obvious Gholdengo switch into your hazard remover, that’s 5 whole turns where you are getting outplayed. Against HO where games last 20-30 turns, how do you expect to get outplayed for 5 whole turns and not lose? I’m gonna give an extreme hyperbole of an example, but imagine if you gave the opposing Dragonite 5 chances to DD throughout a game and expect to win. (Or to less of a hyperbole, imagine giving the opponent the 5 turns to put up Screens in a game and expecting to win)

People just need to learn to pressure the hazard setters and spin blockers with good positional play like good old days, instead of relying on Defog to bail you out.

Here's the punchline:
The best way to beat hazard stacking teams with Gholdengo is to just respect it.

 

[Bold School]

Talonflame and Mold Breaker Hawlucha aren't exactly top meta picks. Corv has plenty of use outside of just Defogging and sometimes doesn't even run Defog at all, whereas Talonflame and Hawlucha are extremely niche outside of their Defogging, having nothing even close to the longevity of Corv. I do think Talonflame specifically is pretty underrated because it hard counters most variants of Great Tusk and Iron Treads (although it hates getting Knocked) and can spread fast burn around, and Hawlucha has a nice STAB combo. But to address your central point, these just aren't mons that want to switch into Gholdengo or most other offensive mons more than once, so their utility as dedicated Defoggers is very limited.

Glimmora has no business being your primary form of hazard removal, Mortal Spin is just too easy to block and it does not have the bulk or defensive typing of Great Tusk or Iron Treads. It also gets stuffed by Gholdengo anyway, so what's even the point? Overall, I think you're heavily exaggerating both how strong hazards are in this meta and how much Gholdengo enables that. I definitely think hazards would be far less centralising than they currently are if Gholdengo was gone, its high usage is testament as to how valuable it is on hazard stack teams

1. Talonflame is actually good, though. It can run Defog sets or offensive sets. The Defog set tends to run Flame Body and Roost, so its utility isn't bad. Running offensive Talonflame means you don't get the advantadge of it as the Defogger and you need and to be much more careful about hazard clear support, but this is also doable. I've even used teams with offensive Talonflame with no boots and Corv as the primary Defogger, and it works against Gholdengo because you can just slap U-Turn on Corv and then switch into something that threatens Gholdengo. The threat of the opponent losing momentum and taking a nuke from something like Chi-Yu or Dragapult just because they wanted to block Defog can be an excellent deterrent.

2. You aren't using these mons to switch into Gholdengo. I don't know why, but a lot of people seem to forget that Gholdengo has to switch into you in order to actually block hazard clear. This is both fairly predictable and can allow you to dictate play by punishing Gholdengo if it wants to switch in or using the threat of super effective moves as a deterrent for doing so. If you play right, Gholdengo switching into your team shouldn't be free most of the time.

3. If you need something to switch into Gholdengo, use a special wall that isn't weak to its STABs. It's not common that the hazard clear pokemon and the special wall will be the same pokemon. Toedscruel can do this, but it's a bit of a niche mon at least in OU and doesn't fit on every team.

4. Glimmora is really good. I've tested it as a primary hazard clear pokemon and Mortal Spin is actually pretty good at it. As I said before, it can run Earth Power and it has 130 special attack. So it doesn't lose to Gholdengo or most Steel types and most teams aren't designed to specifically spinblock Glimmora anyway. And if you are worried about Air Balloon, this is something that goes away with chip. Again, it's pretty easy to punish Gholdengo for having to switch into you.

I'm not entirely certain that Gholdengo is the most pressing matter to deal with in the meta to start, but I've really gotta voice concerns against the points which claim that Gholdengo is only on the radar because it invalidates Corv's Defog and that invalidating Corv's Defog is not that big a deal. I really don't think those two assertions are true at all and it's a disingenuous representation of Ghold's affect on the meta as a whole right now.

Gholdengo is undeniably a strong pokemon. It has a great typing, ability, and move pool. Does that make it OP? I don't think so. Aegislash in gen 8 was likely better. The OPness of the hazard clear block aspect of it is greatly over sold. Again, it has to switch into you to do that and this can be punished.

While you might think the Corvinikight point detracts from its overall impact on the meta, isn't that the biggest difference between it and gen 8 Aegislash? I honestly believe Corv would be overcentralizing if Gholdengo was banned.

so Mortal Spin Glimmora goes from “punchline” to “actual option”).

It's an actual option now. Just run Earth Power to hit most Steels.

 

[the best worst]

I’ve been experimenting with this meowscarada set. Most players expect a choice band set with protein so I wanted to use this set with overgrow and lechi berry


Meowscarada @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Substitute
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch

the main problem with this set are priority moves and especially Chien-pao. I’ve been pairing this up with rocky helmet corviknight and that helps a lot. I’m open to other suggestions

 

[Leader Fox]

I feel like the value of both Corv and Gholdengo is being really really undersold. Gholdengo invalidating exactly one Defogger becomes a bigger deal when you consider Corv's place in the meta. Corv is a generally great mon that has great purpose supporting fatter and more balanced team structures, team structures that are under severe pressure in the current meta in good part due to the abundance of Gholdengo hazard stacks, and Gholdengo in general, which puts them under serious pressure.
Corv being given its freedom back would be a tremendous boon to those structures and will do a good deal towards balancing the meta as a whole. The thing with an offensive meta is that many games become much more prediction-reliant, prediction essentially just being informed guess-work, the advantage teams with more bulk and longevity have in comparison to HO is their ability to execute plans with less risk which is often a more ideally competitive way to play, this is why balance is seen so often in tours amongst top players, it lets them better form and execute reliable game plans which is ideal and should always be a viable option in any meta.

Gholdengo itself is amazing due to the sum of all of its parts, not just its ability to support hazard stacking. Good As Gold gives it immunity to all status moves, coupled with its amazing move pool, great offensive and defensive typing, and support/utility options in Choice Trick, Nasty Plot, Recover, etc all make it very easy to freely fit on a massive range of teams and bend defensive backbones; the fact that its insane enabling of hazard spam is an addition to this already great mon is just icing on the cake.

I'm not entirely certain that Gholdengo is the most pressing matter to deal with in the meta to start, but I've really gotta voice concerns against the points which claim that Gholdengo is only on the radar because it invalidates Corv's Defog and that invalidating Corv's Defog is not that big a deal. I really don't think those two assertions are true at all and it's a disingenuous representation of Ghold's affect on the meta as a whole right now.

I'm sorry but banning Gholdengo just so everyone can use Corviknight doesn't address the problem of hazard stacking. It just shows there's a bigger problem when the only argument I have seen is that Gholdengo is broken because it beats Corviknight (literally). Gholdengo is forced to run balloon in order to not get killed by the elephants and is still threatened with knock off. The meta would still be HO because of Terra and the insane amount of hazard users and general powercreep. What makes Corviknight being mandated on every team better than a Gholdengo meta who has counter play?? Its simply preferential at this point. I believe people forgot the concept of spin blocking and how to actually handle it. There's also Heavy Duty boots which mons was using looonngg before gen 9.

Stall and balance isn't going to be saved by a Gholdengo ban and I don't think mandating Corviknight (which seems to be the argument) on every team is a solution either. Corviknight isn't entitled to a place in the meta.Your problem is actually with hazard distribution and the complete lack of adequate defogers and not with Gholdengo. That's just the meta right now.

 

[1LDK]

Yeah Gholdengo its not broken, its frustrating, but not broken, stop using corv, sure its an excellent mon but we need something else, besides even tho not every hazard remover is viable against gholdengo, they can still fill some niche and roles, to be honest, nothing is gonna be worse than the gen 4 wars where rotom was the easiest mon to abuse of the meta, and gen 5 where you cant take 2 steps before getting hit by a rain booster hydro pump

as the person who literally talked about all the hazard removers, I know that it sounds demoralizing to use fucking oricorio, talonflame or Noiver to defog, or spinners, but to be honest, if the only thing making this teams work is Gholdengo + glimmora + chi yu, people are gonna start adapting, like stoping glimora from vomiting as many hazards at the start of the game, banning chi yu (which is already broken even when hazards out of the equation) and gonna play more aggresive on the dengo switches, get his teammates first, even stall is taking more offensive approaches

 

[alephgalactus]

as the person who literally talked about all the hazard removers, I know that it sounds demoralizing to use fucking oricorio, talonflame or Noiver to defog, or spinners, but

No buts. Being forced to run unviable stuff to beat a single specific thing is a textbook example of that single specific thing being unhealthy and banworthy. Oricorio, Mold Breaker Hawlucha, Noivern and Talonflame have literally zero value in the current meta besides being Defoggers that beat Gholdengo and are complete dead weight if the opponent isn’t running Gholdengo.

 

[motionopotion]

What are yall's thoughts on Scovillain as a sun sweeper? I think it could be rly good with growth and Chlorophyll, as well as it's fire grass typing for STAB fire sun boosted moves like flamethrower or overheat

 

[Bold School]

No buts. Being forced to run unviable stuff to beat a single specific thing is a textbook example of that single specific thing being unhealthy and banworthy. Oricorio, Mold Breaker Hawlucha, Noivern and Talonflame have literally zero value in the current meta besides being Defoggers that beat Gholdengo and are complete dead weight if the opponent isn’t running Gholdengo.

Once again, Talonflame is actually a good mon. I legit don't know why people keep bringing it up in the same breath as Mold Breaker Hawlucha, which is nonsense. Not sure about Noivern as I haven't run it yet. In theory, it could be strong with Tera normal Boomburst given how broken it is with Aerilate in those casual game modes that let you change abilities. But I digress.

It's strange dichotomy that there are folks who talk about Gholdengo enabling the hazard stack playstyle and yet consider "unviable" checks to Gholdengo as only for a specific pokemon instead of that playstyle. If you have a hazard clear pokemon that can threaten Gholdengo, it's obviously about more than just that. It's about countering hazard stacking as a whole. And as has been covered in this thread a lot, many (not all but a decent amount) of the pokemon claimed as unviable aren't actually unviable.

Furthermore, there have always been pokemon in OU that you needed to specifically have checks for like Kartana or Dragapult. It's just common sense to build teams that take into account pokemon that are strong and used a lot.

 

[alephgalactus]

Furthermore, there have always been pokemon in OU that you needed to specifically have checks for like Kartana or Dragault. It's just common sense to build teams that take into account pokemon that are strong and used a lot.

Yeah, but the difference is that the checks for stuff like Kartana and Dragapult can also check other commonly seen things. When have you seen Oricorio or Talonflame do anything in OU this gen besides “come in, kill/scare out Gholdengo, remove hazards, die”? Talonflame gets a Will-o-Wisp off once in a blue moon if the opponent is distracted or half-asleep and that’s about it.

 

[Bold School]

Yeah, but the difference is that the checks for stuff like Kartana and Dragapult can also check other commonly seen things. When have you seen Oricorio or Talonflame do anything in OU this gen besides “come in, kill/scare out Gholdengo, remove hazards, die”? Talonflame gets a Will-o-Wisp off once in a blue moon if the opponent is distracted or half-asleep and that’s about it.

Oricorio, no. But Talonflame, yes. Talonflame can run offensive sets, too. I've spent a lot of time testing various Talonflame sets. It's legit a good mon.

 

[alephgalactus]

Oricorio, no. But Talonflame, yes. Talonflame can run offensive sets, too. I've spent a lot of time testing various Talonflame sets. It's legit a good mon.

Do you have replays of these tests? Where on ladder are you testing Talonflame? I’m curious as to exactly what I’m missing here.

 

[Bold School]

Do you have replays of these tests? Where on ladder are you testing Talonflame? I’m curious as to exactly what I’m missing here.

I haven't bothered to save any replays so far. But we have a Talonflame thread. Various sets are discussed there. It was determined that Flame Body was optimal ability on the Defog set. With Flame Body and Roost, you can punish things like U-Turn.

Offensive sets can be special or physical. The best offensive set is probably Specs with Hurricane. Physical sets are a bit awkward because it wants to use Acrobatics and Swords Dance. But you really can't discount 110-120 BP priority moves, especially if they become double STAB. The biggest issue is Tera Blast isn't considered priority for Gale Wings somehow, but it's still fast. Talonflame is also one of the few pokemon that naturally outspeeds unboosted Cyclizar and Roaring Moon.

 

[Dubbidub]

Good counters for roaring moon? Once it gets one dragon dance it outspends everything I have with 139 base attack and good coverage moves.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

broke: banning gholdengo because it's broken

woke: banning gholdengo bc the forum turns into a 3 page shitstorm when discussing it

 

[alephgalactus]

Good counters for roaring moon? Once it gets one dragon dance it outspends everything I have with 139 base attack and good coverage moves.

Try Flame Body Talonflame. I have it on good authority that it’s “legit a good mon”.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

Good counters for roaring moon? Once it gets one dragon dance it outspends everything I have with 139 base attack and good coverage moves.

Might I introduce you to my friend Sash Breloom?


Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Swords Dance/Rock Tomb


Mach Punch will dent it if not outright KO it, Rock Tomb is an option if you fear Tera Flying and Sash tends to bait it well, alternatively simply click Spore and then pray it doesn't wake up while you figure something else out lol

 

[Eeveeto]

Good counters for roaring moon? Once it gets one dragon dance it outspends everything I have with 139 base attack and good coverage moves.

Dondozo, Avalugg, Slither Wing (if not Tera), Grimmsnarl (if not Iron Head + Tera), Corviknight (with Body Press and again, if not Tera), Cloyster, Hatterene (if not Iron Head/Tera), Azumarill (again, if not Tera), Torkoal (if not Tera), Garganacl (if he goes Tera to a type not weak to Ground, Dark or Flying) and physically defensive Mons in general. In practice, Roaring Moon often ends up being far less dangerous than it looks but it really depends how the match is played and who Terastalyses what and into what type.