tbh Gengar is completely useless against Breloom (barring Will O Wisping it before its Toxic Orb activates or Knock Offing it beforehand) and Taunting Breloom does nothing to stop its passive healing, huge bulk, and excellent firepower.
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Stat Switch [Azumarill+Regice Banned]
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
canno
formerly The Reptile
Er, I wouldn't call Regice an "answer" to it, considering
4 SpA Technician Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regice: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
the only ones that can "reasonably" (read: get 2HKO'd) take a Vaccum Wave is Assault Vest and Max/Max+ SpDef. Not saying that those aren't effective sets (well, assault vest anyways - max/max+ spdef is bad imho), but I'm pretty sure Life Orb and other items are much more common than Assault Vest, and even Assault Vest is flimsy as best, considering
0 SpA Technician Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Regice: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Technician Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Regice: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
so yea, Regice is barely a check at best, so I don't see how Regice can be considered a "counter".
Technician Vacuum Wave Breloom is not a thing, as Vacuum Wave is a Gen 4 tutor and Technician is its Hidden Ability.
canno
formerly The Reptile
Whoops. How could I have forgotten when
Point still stands though - Regice is in no way a counter when it gets 2HKO'd by it without any investment
0 SpA Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regice: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Assault Vest does avoid the 2HKO from no investment, but I still wouldn't call it a counter when it can really only switch in once - it's a check at best.
252+ SpA Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Regice: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Regice: 126-150 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Doesn't help that Regice is extremely easy to wear down to a point where Vaccum Wave kills.
Wait, I know nobody uses Celebi in Stat Switch, but might it be able to counter Breloom? Immunity to Spore, threatens with Nasty Plot and Psychic (or Swords Dance and Zen Headbutt but why would you use Physical Celebi anyway), and vaguely tanky-ish even in Stat Switch. Weak to the half of the meta that isn't Vacuum Wave spam, though.
Breloom can't do much to defensive Grass types in general since they are immune to Spore and Leech Seed, resist Giga Drain, and don't take that much from Vacuum Wave. Shaymin-Sky is a good counter to Breloom unless Breloom is running Sludge Bomb (which I did run into once). Tangrowth can also be a good answer, but unfortunately it has to run Aerial Ace / HP Flying / Poison Jab to do anything to Breloom. Serperior with a Coil / Calm Mind set could work too, but I haven't tried this so I don't know if it is any good. Gengar can't do anything to Breloom, but a Rest set might be able to PP stall Breloom. Inferape doesn't like Spore or Leech Seed, but takes Breloom's attacks pretty well and can do a lot of damage with Flare Blitz. I think Breloom may still be banworthy, but there are some good Pokemon out there which can stop it.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 446-528 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Only answer I've been able to find to reliably shut him down. Trouble is, it can't switch in. Only thing that doesn't care much about his attacks is....Honchkrow maybe? Could set up on him with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Regi bait though. I'm not sure on Breloom. I think it could be good enough to warrant a ban. Not many real switch-ins for it
Only answer I've been able to find to reliably shut him down. Trouble is, it can't switch in. Only thing that doesn't care much about his attacks is....Honchkrow maybe? Could set up on him with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Regi bait though. I'm not sure on Breloom. I think it could be good enough to warrant a ban. Not many real switch-ins for it
The way I handle loom is by having multiple attackers strong enough to take them down. With a combo of Gallade, Sylveon, and Darm, I'm capable of tanking a sleep with one of them and KOing it with one of the other two. It's kind of overkill, but these are all great mons that serve multiple purposes and can take on teams with a bit of luck.
Hidden Power Flying, even aside from Sludge Bomb. I run it on my Breloom just to counter other Breloom, and it incidentally trivializes Grass types in general, and also has all kinds of secondary benefits, and since the only things that resist it are Rock types (Vacuum Wave/Energy Ball/Giga Drain), Steel types (Vacuum Wave) and Electric types (zero threat to Breloom in all cases that I'm aware of) it provides excellent neutral coverage that allows Breloom to take on almost everything in the game. There's a few Pokemon like Thundurus that might be able to deal with Breloom (But I haven't seen either Thundurus variant in the meta and Carbink horribly murders them regardless) by virtue of resisting all that, but I highly doubt it -especially since most of the classic offensive threats have lost their preferred offense and it's very rare to see replacements. (That is, there's a lot more Fire types that lose their Attack and/or Special Attack for Speed or defensive stats than there are Fire types that gain Attack by sacrificing some other stat -Mega Houndoom is one exception I can name and hey, Vacuum Wave)
That sounds like the definition of over-centralizing or outright broken. You need multiple other Pokemon to have any chance of taking it down? And Gallade isn't a counter to Hidden Power Flying Breloom by the way.
I really really don't see why people run this. Breloom gets plenty of healing just from Poison Heal, if you want to heal better Protect is probably more effective, and the damage is pretty pointless when Breloom has such an effective offensive capacity in general and access to Giga Drain. My own preferred set of Vacuum Wave/Energy Ball/Hidden Power Flying/Spore basically only ever dies because I make a crucial mistake -when I'm not just playing stupidly it's obnoxiously difficult to kill and Dragonite is one of the only Pokemon I've seen that can properly wall it. (And it's not very popular, with good reason: 134 Attack becoming 134 Speed isn't very thrilling when stuff like Carbink is running around outspeeding and annihilating you) And honestly Energy Ball really is probably sub-optimal compared to Giga Drain, since Giga Drain lets it heal off Carbink's Moon Blast and similar.
In a more fully developed meta no, Breloom is not countered by Regice -but most people assume their Breloom will OHKO Regice (Which it never will even off one Stealth Rock since Technician is not possible to combine with Vacuum Wave and is stupid anyway because Poison Heal Breloom is vastly superior) while Regice cleanly OHKOs it with one Ice Punch, allowing Regice to revenge switch in and either KO it or, if they're savvy, cause them to switch to something else Regice can dent and possibly KO. (Also note that your second calc shows that incompetent bulk investment on Regice still provides a 50% chance of surviving after Stealth Rock, without an Assault Vest since no Technician and you're not running Choice Specs over Toxic Orb, while Regice would make much more sense to invest into Special Defense and get more durability that way)
And why are your calcs investing into HP? Regice would survive better with Special Defense maxed and no HP.
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Hi, sorry for double post, but I would like to announce that Snaquaza has started a council of Me, Ghoul King, and himself. The first thing the council is looking at is Regice, and we should reach a conclusion on it soon. Thanks :)
uh, Sludge Bomb 2hitko'd Breloom on my Haunter.
considering Gengar has a little more sp.atk I'd imagine it'd be the same story lol.
The guy that denies Life Orb Regice as a thing is on council. RIPTheBurgerKing99 said:
Not saying Assault Vest Regice doesn't work, just that Life Orb Regice very definitely does work, very well in fact.
I find this extraordinarily unlikely off a Special Attack of 45 against 130/130 bulk. Calcing it with Choice Specs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 204-242 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
I can only conclude either your memory is faulty or you are ignorant of the meta on a fundamental level.
Is it possible that there might be a glitch where Eviolite Haunter keeps it's Sp.Atk? I don't know how it happened either, it wasn't a crit and the person I played against can attest to that.
He said it wasn't viable. Lol.FlameUser64 said:
Quote: I have enormous doubts about "common" and even greater doubts about "viable".
Here's something I've been using to counter most variants of breloom (besides sludge bomb):
shitty gimmick (Jumpluff)
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- U-turn
- Sleep Powder
- Aromatherapy
4x resists grass stab, resists fighting stab, immune to leech seed and spore. Infiltrator lets it hit Breloom through subs. Jumpluff now has a respectable base 110 attack stat, but acrobatics is its only good flying stab. Also, it usually ohkos Breloom:
252+ Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 424-504 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
If you predict Breloom to switch out, click u-turn and grab momentum. This thing is pretty much useless against teams that don't have breloom, but what teams don't run breloom lmao
shitty gimmick (Jumpluff)
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- U-turn
- Sleep Powder
- Aromatherapy
4x resists grass stab, resists fighting stab, immune to leech seed and spore. Infiltrator lets it hit Breloom through subs. Jumpluff now has a respectable base 110 attack stat, but acrobatics is its only good flying stab. Also, it usually ohkos Breloom:
252+ Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 424-504 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
If you predict Breloom to switch out, click u-turn and grab momentum. This thing is pretty much useless against teams that don't have breloom, but what teams don't run breloom lmao
I would argue that Jumpluff is completely outclassed by Skymin
Wait, skymin is legal? I should read more carefully lmao
This was specifically in the context of you saying most common and most viable, and I still doubt that Life Orb is the most viable item for Regice. (I won't argue most common at this point in time, that would be ridiculous going by the ladder) Don't take quotes out of context.
Unless you've got the replay, I'm unconvinced -I've not seen an error of that sort in my own play, nothing in the code would explain this result, and even if there's something weird where Eviolite is applying its boost to Special Attack because of stat swapping it still shouldn't be a big enough boost to achieve a 2HKO.
canno
formerly The Reptile
I fixed my calcs because I'm a dummy a while ago. They still didn't look good for Regice. Also, assuming the opponent isn't savvy is not an indicator for anything basically, so I don't understand why it was brought up. However it looks like I need to fix my calcs again because I didn't know that. I just assumed that max HP (or 248 because muh odd HP) was better for general bulk (including Physical), but meh.
0 SpA Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Regice: 128-152 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Regice: 170-204 (56.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Regice: 86-104 (28.5 - 34.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Regice: 116-138 (38.5 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Breloom Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Regice: 104-126 (28.5 - 34.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (BEST SET 2016
I still don't buy it though - Regice's best situation is to have an Assault Vest vs defensive Breloom, as any other situation leads to a 2HKO after SR (read: prior damage). This means that Regice simply cannot switch into Breloom, even with a Assault Vest vs Vaccum Wave (remember Regice has no way of healing that off unless you give it Wish Support), which is something that a counter should do. At best its a check to Breloom, and only really when it has an Assault Vest.
That wasn't me that posted that, lol. Dunno how you managed to have someone else's quote in a quote tag referencing me. The posted you quoted was from Ghoul King.
canno
formerly The Reptile
My point was that I agree with you that in a Perfect World in which players always play somewhere very near optimally, no, Regice is not a counter or even a check to Breloom -at best it can be used to finish off Breloom once you've wiped out everything else so that it can't switch out, which is more than a depressing number of Pokemon can say. But against a surprising number of actual players who aren't low-ladder newbies it still actually works.