Stat Switch [Azumarill+Regice Banned]

It's got 130 HP, 130 Special Defense, and Poison Heal for the "stall machine" end of things (And even its Defense is a respectable 80), and 130 Special Attack with a perfectly solid Special movepool for offense. It has literally the kind of statline a Standard Uber has with Poison Heal. (600 BST, distributed favorably, the net result being that if you ignore its Attack and Speed -which are very ignorable- it's akin to Pokemon like Kyogre!) In what way is it unreasonable to say it can be both bulky and offensive at the same time?

And who cares that Kingler outspeeds and 2HKOs when it gets hit with Spore on the first turn? It outspeeds and is rendered irrelevant.

And name a way stall can actually KO it. That isn't "prevent its Toxic Orb from triggering".
 
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spikes and phasing, other grass types, spdef luke. also kingler is not outsped unles you are going bulkless breloom. Yes it's bulky as all fuck, but along the lines of what you're arguing you might convince me more on a "lots of sets it can run" angle than a purely "impossible to beat" angle. It is very beatable, and it being hard for stall to kill is an odd argument when it's one of the best stall mons, so other than maybe stand off mirrors I can see it being dumb, but there are plenty of good mons that sit there and kill it or force a switch (salamence being able to handle everything breloom can throw with that massive bulk, and access to 2 kinds of healing, refresh, phasing, and the power to bust subs repeatedly).
 
HP Flying does more because of Technician on Scizor. Still, aside from Breloom I don't see much reason to use it.
Right...forgot about that ^_^
But yeah, Breloom is really the only thing that makes you really *need* HP Flying, and HP Fire is slightly weaker against it but better overall imo.
 
spikes and phasing
Again: it has Poison Heal. That alone makes Spikes and phasing really ineffective, even before it Spores you or hits you with Giga Drain or whatever. It also resists Stealth Rock, by the way.

other grass types
Hidden Power Flying and suddenly no Grass type in the game is a counter.

spdef luke
One of a very small list of Pokemon that can not only threaten Breloom but take advantage of the turn it switches out in, which in turn makes it pretty trivial to have a teammate that covers that angle. Also note Lucario is vulnerable to both Arena Trap and more alarmingly Magnet Pull -if there's even one Magnet Pull Pokemon that's viable and can counter Lucario then Breloom just teams up with that and Lucario is useless.

also kingler is not outsped unles you are going bulkless breloom.
learn2read. I said "kingler outspeeds and then gets Spored rendering it useless".

Yes it's bulky as all fuck, but along the lines of what you're arguing you might convince me more on a "lots of sets it can run" angle than a purely "impossible to beat" angle.
It really doesn't have that many viable sets and it really doesn't need that many viable sets.

It is very beatable, and it being hard for stall to kill is an odd argument when it's one of the best stall mons, so other than maybe stand off mirrors I can see it being dumb, but there are plenty of good mons that sit there and kill it or force a switch (salamence being able to handle everything breloom can throw with that massive bulk, and access to 2 kinds of healing, refresh, phasing, and the power to bust subs repeatedly).
Or Breloom Spores you, or breaks out Hidden Power Ice instead which still covers Grass types, or worst case switches to an answer to Salamence. (It's not like Salamence can threaten to Calm Mind to infinity and murder everything if Breloom tries to stay in forever) And Salamence doesn't have any Flying STAB above 60 BP on either Physical or Special, restricting it to off-STAB offenses -Specially weighted because its Physical offense is pretty mediocre- and even with Fire Blast can't so much as 2HKO Breloom. (Even Hidden Power Flying wouldn't be a OHKO)

It's not an odd argument to say it invalidates stall -if stall can't kill Breloom stall isn't a valid playstyle so long as Breloom is legal. Breloom is plenty useful to non-stall teams too, so it's not restricted to mirror matches of stall on stall as a problem, which would still be plenty wonky.
 
spikes and phasing, other grass types, spdef luke. also kingler is not outsped unles you are going bulkless breloom. Yes it's bulky as all fuck, but along the lines of what you're arguing you might convince me more on a "lots of sets it can run" angle than a purely "impossible to beat" angle. It is very beatable, and it being hard for stall to kill is an odd argument when it's one of the best stall mons, so other than maybe stand off mirrors I can see it being dumb, but there are plenty of good mons that sit there and kill it or force a switch (salamence being able to handle everything breloom can throw with that massive bulk, and access to 2 kinds of healing, refresh, phasing, and the power to bust subs repeatedly).
It doesn't matter if Kingler outspeeds. Kingler gets one Ice Beam off and then gets Spored and can't do anything to stop it.

Still, Hidden Power Flying's damage output is honestly pretty pathetic without Technician; and with Technician you can't run Poison Heal nor Vacuum Wave.

252+ SpA Breloom Hidden Power Flying vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Celebi: 144-170 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

*plink!*

See? Celebi can set up on Breloom for free if it has HP Flying instead of Sludge Bomb. It can Calm Mind boost with just leftovers, take Breloom out with Psychic and start hitting things with Giga Drain to heal back up.

As for Breloom, Hidden Power Flying is just about irrelevant for it, only having the niche of hitting other Breloom. HP Fire is probably a better option to hit Scizor, who takes very little damage from anything else Breloom does. Also, Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Celebi, preventing it from even being used as a revenge switch.
 
Hp grass flying (oops edit) is NEGLIGIBLE DAMAGE 60bp is absolutely garbage even invested, it's only good against other brelooms. You're acting like breloom is this 6move 252 in everything hackmons beast. It's not. Goggles do also exist if you're really all that concerned, and breloom won't always be 100%hp. And before you say goggles is overcentralizing, but do keep in mind shed shell is seen as a viable thing in other metas where trapping is/was common.
 
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Hp grass is NEGLIGIBLE DAMAGE 60bp is absolutely garbage even invested, it's only good against other brelooms. You're acting like breloom is this 6move 252 in everything hackmons beast. It's not. Goggles do also exist if you're really all that concerned, and breloom won't always be 100%hp. And before you say goggles is overcentralizing, but do keep in mind shed shell is seen as a viable thing in other metas where trapping is/was common.
Where are you getting HP Grass from? Nobody mentioned HP Grass lol. STAB Hidden Power is stupid unless you're Stat Switch Scizor with HP Steel. Also, between the certainty of Poison Heal and the possibility of Leech Seed or Substitute, along with immunity to status, Breloom being at 100% HP may as well be a near-certainty.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
Where are you getting HP Grass from? Nobody mentioned HP Grass lol. STAB Hidden Power is stupid unless you're Stat Switch Scizor with HP Steel. Also, between the certainty of Poison Heal and the possibility of Leech Seed or Substitute, along with immunity to status, Breloom being at 100% HP may as well be a near-certainty.
Judging from what he said, I'm assuming he meant HP Flying

Anyways I don't have any strong personal opinions on Breloom (who does NOT rival Kyogre at all lmao, not even in the BST department. I don't see how 600 vs 670 is comparable :\ ) at the moment. I do want to talk about an answer that doesn't get much discussion - Skymin. Skymin has impressive 100/127/127 and an OK defensive typing that I feel gets overlooked. It especially works as a Breloom counter - even if they start packing HP Ice (which is just....no). What's really fun about Skymin is that its 75 speed is just enough to do some silly shit like Air Slash flinch (which it only needs at most 2 of unless Breloom is running Protect) Breloom (70 base speed) thanks to Serene Grace. It also still has access to a Grass nuke in the form of Seed Flare with its very respectable 120 SpA. Notably this Grass nuke can lower SpDef most of the time by 2 stages, making it nuts. So its a pretty cool mon outside of walling Breloom, especially now that Regice is gone. It's not completely favorable since Carbink is still here to smack it with Power Gem,

252+ SpA Breloom Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shaymin-S: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Breloom Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shaymin-S: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 232-276 (50 - 59.4%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 304-360 (65.5 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Life Orb Carbink Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shaymin-S: 252-299 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (doesn't get OHKO'd!!!!)
4 SpA Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Carbink: 216-254 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO (y-you too)


(Keep in mind Breloom can't run 252/252+/252+, which is a big problem with Breloom calcs that I see. I'm even guilty of doing this)
 
Still, Hidden Power Flying's damage output is honestly pretty pathetic without Technician; and with Technician you can't run Poison Heal nor Vacuum Wave.

252+ SpA Breloom Hidden Power Flying vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Celebi: 144-170 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

*plink!*

See? Celebi can set up on Breloom for free if it has HP Flying instead of Sludge Bomb. It can Calm Mind boost with just leftovers, take Breloom out with Psychic and start hitting things with Giga Drain to heal back up.

As for Breloom, Hidden Power Flying is just about irrelevant for it, only having the niche of hitting other Breloom. HP Fire is probably a better option to hit Scizor, who takes very little damage from anything else Breloom does. Also, Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Celebi, preventing it from even being used as a revenge switch.
252+ SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 216-254 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

Minimum 3 turns to actually KO Breloom, Calm Mind or no. Why aren't you running/arguing Psyshock?

... odd. According to the calculator Hidden Power Flying does

252+ SpA Breloom Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 73-86 (21.2 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

this to Mega Scizor, but in an actual match I removed more than half a Mega Scizor's health with Hidden Power Flying. Even removing the HP investment gets

252+ SpA Breloom Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 73-86 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

nowhere near that. And Technician+a negative Special Defense nature still wouldn't justify 60%+ damage, even if I was somehow running it alongside Poison Heal.

I am becoming genuinely concerned Stat Switch's code is doing something very wrong, in conjunction with prior claims of Haunter 2HKOing Breloom. Or it could be the calculator I guess?

Regardless I'd also like to point out

252+ SpA Breloom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 216-255 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

which is worth commentary since one of the stronger reasons to run Vacuum Wave is gone (Regice), and if Carbink goes there will be even less reason to run Vacuum Wave.

Hidden Power Flying is more than enough to render most Grass types non-counters to Breloom, and it's not actually insane to run it. (I consider the SubSeed Breloom far more insane -what exactly do they add to Breloom's utility?)

You're acting like breloom is this 6move 252 in everything hackmons beast. It's not.
I'm acting like it's very, very durable, capable of neutralizing most counters, not actually countered by that many viable Pokemon, and has an impressive offense only really held back by Grass being a pretty iffy offensive type -and a surprising number of things fail to wall it in spite of resisting it because their Special Defense and/or HP is too low. I'm also acting like various "counters" people named aren't counters because they aren't.

I still have not seen anything capable of OHKOing it when hitting its Special Defense, and I also haven't seen any non-Flying moves capable of OHKOing it when hitting its Defense -which is problematic when you consider how rare Physical Flying coverage is and how many Flying types are dubious to use, or have swapped their offenses without having proper movepools for their new offense, or just flat out lack a real offense now. (Talonflame being a very notable exception, but saying every team should just run Talonflame to deal with Breloom is coming back to the idea that Breloom is at least over-centralizing)
 
252+ SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 216-254 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

Minimum 3 turns to actually KO Breloom, Calm Mind or no. Why aren't you running/arguing Psyshock?

... odd. According to the calculator Hidden Power Flying does

252+ SpA Breloom Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 73-86 (21.2 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

this to Mega Scizor, but in an actual match I removed more than half a Mega Scizor's health with Hidden Power Flying. Even removing the HP investment gets

252+ SpA Breloom Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 73-86 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

nowhere near that. And Technician+a negative Special Defense nature still wouldn't justify 60%+ damage, even if I was somehow running it alongside Poison Heal.

I am becoming genuinely concerned Stat Switch's code is doing something very wrong, in conjunction with prior claims of Haunter 2HKOing Breloom. Or it could be the calculator I guess?

Regardless I'd also like to point out

252+ SpA Breloom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 216-255 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

which is worth commentary since one of the stronger reasons to run Vacuum Wave is gone (Regice), and if Carbink goes there will be even less reason to run Vacuum Wave.

Hidden Power Flying is more than enough to render most Grass types non-counters to Breloom, and it's not actually insane to run it. (I consider the SubSeed Breloom far more insane -what exactly do they add to Breloom's utility?)



I'm acting like it's very, very durable, capable of neutralizing most counters, not actually countered by that many viable Pokemon, and has an impressive offense only really held back by Grass being a pretty iffy offensive type -and a surprising number of things fail to wall it in spite of resisting it because their Special Defense and/or HP is too low. I'm also acting like various "counters" people named aren't counters because they aren't.

I still have not seen anything capable of OHKOing it when hitting its Special Defense, and I also haven't seen any non-Flying moves capable of OHKOing it when hitting its Defense -which is problematic when you consider how rare Physical Flying coverage is and how many Flying types are dubious to use, or have swapped their offenses without having proper movepools for their new offense, or just flat out lack a real offense now. (Talonflame being a very notable exception, but saying every team should just run Talonflame to deal with Breloom is coming back to the idea that Breloom is at least over-centralizing)
Celebi does not learn Psyshock. Otherwise, yes I would be arguing Psyshock lol. And yes, it takes 3 turns to KO Breloom, but Calm Minding first instead of using Psychic 3 times also means you have a Calm Mind boost to take out other foes, and you don't die to Breloom's Hidden Power in the process. Also, I've OHKO'd Breloom before with a Special move, but it was Gallade's Psychic after a Calm Mind (or possibly 2 of them, come to think of it) so lol.

But yeah, if you did over 60% to Mega Scizor with HP Flying (without Technician) then something is off. I'd been about to suggest that it might've somehow actually been a Scyther and you were mistaken, but...

252+ SpA Breloom Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 116-138 (33.7 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

lol. Also, ^ proof that HP Flying is silly.

As for SubSeed Breloom, it gets insane passive recovery and can wall the **** out of any special attacker that isn't immune to Leech Seed.
 
With how much more common it is for me to see hazards setters than hazard clearers, I got curious on the topic of what can clear hazards and in particular how viable they are.

The summarized version is that overall most hazard clearers are a lot less viable, or were never viable in the first place and aren't starting now. But here's the full list for those who care anyway.

Armaldo: Very fast, but has poor offenses and is vulnerable to Stealth Rock. Two thumbs down.

Avalugg: Extremely fast, but very fragile and vulnerable to Stealth Rock. Steelix, Mega Steelix, Mega Aggron, Regirock, and Shuckle are the only Pokemon that outspeed it, so if you can get it in without taking a hit and without fearing priority it's actually pretty reliable at getting off that Rapid Spin. Probably not actually usable though.

Blastoise: More than 100 Speed and still acceptably bulky and hard-hitting. Mega Blastoise is even faster and has all its Standard bulk, but loses a lot of Special Attack, making Mega Launcher-boosted moves less powerful -still more powerful than trying to run off its Physical stat. Mega Blastoise is probably one of the best Rapid Spinners in Stat Switch.

Claydol: Immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes, resistant to Stealth Rock, immune to Sand, very tough. It trades down Special Defense to get its HP up, so just invest in Special Defense and it's good to go. Probably more useful to straight stall teams than to offense teams.

Cloyster: Straight swaps Defense for Special Defense, so it's basically the Blissey of Stat Switch. It's vulnerable to Stealth Rock, but it's fundamental functionality hasn't been lost. Main blow to it as a Rapid Spin Pokemon is it prefers stuff like abusing Shell Smash and a Focus Sash, not to mention the lack of recovery. Might be appealing on some team.

Cryogonal: Straight swaps Special Defense for Defense. Given Cryogonal is very, very bad in Standard, and it's still vulnerable to Stealth Rock, I don't expect anyone to use it just because it's pretending to be a Physical wall.

Delibird: 75 HP, Defense, Special Defense! Still doubly weak to Stealth Rock, still has a limited movepool, still has bad stats -Mew with Defog is way better- and still has to compete with Articuno, which is the same typing but a higher BST.

Donphan: Sacrifices Attack and Defense for Speed. 120 Speed is nice, and it does resist Stealth Rock, but... it's still really really bad now, and it wasn't great in Standard either.

Excadrill: Straight swaps Attack for Special Attack, which it lacks the movepool for. Iffy.

Forretress: Sacrifices its Defense for Speed. Not a great Rapid Spinner, way too prone to dying.

Hitmonchan: Really fragile, really high Special Attack. Doesn't really have the movepool for it either.

Hitmonlee: Best Hitmon-trade, swapping Attack for Special Attack, hooray! By the way its movepool Special-wise is like literally Focus Blast/Vacuum Wave/Hidden Power/crap Normal moves.

Hitmontop: Same as Hitmonchan, basically.

Kabutops: Trades Attack for HP. Could be a good Rapid Spinner, if its movepool allows, just because it's reasonably bulky. That double Grass weakness though. And complete lack of offense.

Sandslash: Trades Defense for Special Attack, leaving it still slow and fragile. Ow.

Spinda: It's still Spinda, and unchanged.

Starmie: Very, very tanky, and can put Analytic to good use in this meta! Potentially quite viable a Rapid Spinner.

Tentacruel: Straight swaps its defenses, so it's basically business as usual, but you wall Physical instead of Special. About as viable as Standard Tentacruel, probably.

Torkoal: Extremely fast and extremely fragile and vulnerable to Stealth Rock. I dunno, it might be useful in actual play just for being a fast way to Overheat and all, but...


Aerodactyl: Loses Speed for Special Attack. ie turns to crap. Mega Aerodactyl is the same, before you get your hopes up.

Archeops: Loses Attack for Defense and Special Defense. Might make a good stall 'mon, what with Roost and excellent bulk and a pretty OK typing. Not like Defeatist matters if you're not attacking anyway. Eviolite Archen might even be viable!

Articuno: Less bulky, but faster and with good Physical Attack. Quite nice, though it's doubly weak to Stealth Rock. Might be worth a shot for a team that wants to run it anyway. Maybe.

Beautifly: Trades Special Attack for both defenses. 100 Defense and Special Defense is nifty, but it's still doubly weak to Stealth Rock and has movepool problems.

Beedrill: Mega Beedrill probably has better things it could be doing with its time and movepool.

Braviary: Straight swaps its Attack for its Special Attack. I don't think it has the movepool to be viable.

Butterfree: Straight swaps Special Attack for Attack. Double weakness to Stealth Rock, not very good in general.

Charizard: Its Megas are very good, but tend to have better things to do.

Chatot: Straight swaps Special Attack for Special Defense. Don't use it, certainly not for Defog.

Crobat: Slow mixed attacker. eeeeh.

Delibird again: It's still Delibird.

Dragonite: Lightning fast and already gets used for Special offense in Standard at times! Losing your Multiscale sucks though.

Drifblim: Really, really, really bad.

Dustox: Trades Special Defense for double offenses. Not helping.

Empoleon: Fast and with Defiant actually a decent Physical attacker. Also note it gets Flying coverage. Potentially usable Defogger.

Farfetch'd: Trades Special Defense for HP, marginally improving it.

Fearow: Trades Speed for Special Attack and Special Defense. Could maybe be a tank, sort of?

Flygon: Actually a fairly good Defogger, being immune or resistant to all hazards. Also technically has its BST go up, though not by a lot.

Gliscor: Extremely bad. Just don't use it.

Honchkrow: An excellent Pokemon that I've seen used for Defogging plenty -it's extremely bulky.

Latias: Sure why not.

Latios: About the same.

Lumineon: Higher BST, not vulnerable to Stealth Rock, probably still awful.

Mandibuzz: Eeeeeeh.

Mantine: A strong Physical attacker with nothing really good about it. Pass.

Masquerain: It's BST has gone up, but not by remotely enough to save it.

Mew: It's Mew, it's just like in Standard.

Moltres: Bad, bad, bad. Don't use it.

Mothim: It's a bad Beautifly. Why would you use it?

Ninjask: Just barely misses greatness. Insane Defense is nice, but it's HP is bad and its Special Defense is bad and it's doubly weak to Stealth Rock, and if you wanted to use it anyway you'd still try to use it as a Baton Passer. Not a likely Defogger.

Noctowl: Dumps HP for Attack and Defense, which is actually an OK deal -remember, HP mechanics means it's only removed a third of its overall durability while its Physical durability was doubled, leading to it being ahead against Physical and only a little behind on Special- but I have my doubts about it being viable regardless, let alone a good Defogger.

Pelipper: Trades Defense for Attack. Not a good trade, and I've literally never seen anyone use it in other tiers.

Wingull: Has almost as much BST as Pelipper, actually!

Pidgeot: It's actually very hard hitting and surprisingly durable. Not sure I'd want it to be my Defogger -it's only good as Mega Pidgeot so switching it in initially can be problematic- but even so.

Salamence: Main flaw strikes me as being 4MSS. Otherwise, very good, even being vulnerable to Stealth Rock.

Scizor: Again, main flaw strikes me as 4MSS. Still very useful for the job at times.

Shiftry: It's a lot bulkier, and it isn't vulnerable to Stealth Rock, so there's that. Still doubly weak to Bug, though.

Skarmory: Ridiculously hard hitting Special Attacker with durability and Speed problems. Given that it almost demands a Scarf to be useful, I have difficulty imagining Skarmory being a good Defogger, ironically.

Skuntank: Trades HP for Special Defense, so it could be worse. Do people even use it for Defog in other tiers?

Staraptor, Staravia, Starly: Starly bolsters all of Defend, Special Defense, and Special Attack, while Staravia only bolsters Special Defense and Special Attack, and Staraptor only boosts Special Attack. They all sacrifice Attack. Weird stuff. I doubt any of them is a good Defogger.

Swanna: Very bulky in this meta, actually. Potentially usable?

Swellow: Trades Speed for Special Attack and Special Defense. Not great, Boomburst or no, and I'm not sure why you'd Defog with it.

Taillow: Arguably better than Swellow, actually, since it throws in Defense being increased. Between that and Eviolite it's actually tougher than Swellow!

Togekiss: Hustle Togekiss is pretty nifty, and people use it for Defog as-is in other tiers. Might be worth it.

Togetic: Worth noting that it boosts both Attack and Speed -it actually ends up with more than 100 Speed! Potentially a better Defogger than Togekiss itself, with an Eviolite.

Tropius: Faster but less durable. I'm sorry, Genesect Speed tier is not saving you.

Venomoth: Its BST has gone down. No.

Vespiquen: BST has gone down. No.

Xatu: BST has gone down. Not thrilling.

Yanma: It's actually bulkier than Yanmega, amusingly enough. Probably not a good idea anyway.

Yanmega: Bulkier than ever. But not as much as Yanma, even before Eviolite. Huzzah? It's only got 11 more Attack than Yanma, too, and less Special Attack -though it is faster. I don't expect it to be a Defogger regardless.

Zapdos: Bulkier than ever. Sure!
 
Empoleon: Fast and with Defiant actually a decent Physical attacker. Also note it gets Flying coverage. Potentially usable Defogger.
I'd just like to point out that Empoleon cannot have both Defog and Defiant due to the fact that while defog is a 4th gen HM move, defiant is a 5th gen dream world move. ;-;

Regardless, I've used Empoleon quite a bit, and it's very good. It's typing allows it to check many pokemon, and can use a few nice support moves such as the aforementioned Defog, Knock Off, Yawn, and Stealth Rock. Overall, it's a very good pokemon and I definitely recommend it for anyone who needs a defensive pokemon that can use any of the moves I just listed.
 
I've been using this set on my HO team:


Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Fire Blast
- Air Cutter / Hydro Pump / Dragon Pulse

It functions as a great pivot to take hits from Pokemon such as Chansey, and the icing on the cake is that everybody will be expecting it to be a harmless wall before you drop a devastating Draco Meteor on their heads. Base 110 special attack really isn't that bad, and it can horribly dent some of the more common Pokemon in the metagame. There are 3 options you can run in the last slot - personally I prefer air cutter since once you've revealed you're a special attacker the thing will be practically attracting Breloom giving you a chance to dent the shit out of it, while Hydro Pump is useful for Carbink switch-ins and dragon pulse is just spammable overall. Some random calcs:

Attacking:
252+ SpA Life Orb Salamence Air Cutter vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 302-359 (65 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Salamence Air Cutter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 395-473 (85.1 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 173-204 (80.8 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 239-282 (85.9 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 278-330 (76.3 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defending:
-1 252+ Atk Chansey Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 157-186 (47.2 - 56%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 120-142 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mega Alakazam Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 232-276 (69.8 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The balance of offensive presence and defensive prowess make it a very welcome addition to most hyper offensive teams in my opinion.
 
-1 252+ Atk Chansey Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 157-186 (47.2 - 56%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 120-142 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I would just like to point out those both get and have reason to run Ice Punch. (Though I prefer Fire Punch on Chansey/Blissey myself for the ability to laugh at Mega Scizor forever) Metagross also gets Clear Body before Mega Evolution, so you don't necessarily have the -1 on it.

I'd just like to point out that Empoleon cannot have both Defog and Defiant due to the fact that while defog is a 4th gen HM move, defiant is a 5th gen dream world move. ;-;
why must my favorite Gen IV starter always be hampered in crucial ways in every meta

Oh and I should've said in the first place I generally ignored lower evolutionary stages unless I found they had more advantageous stat swapping than their more evolved forms. Not necessarily a higher BST -Poliwag to Poliwhirl is the only case I'm aware of thus far of a lower stage having a higher BST than its own evolutions- but more of a BST increase.

Still kinda surprised at some of the stuff I stumbled into there though. What the heck is up with Starly's line?
 
And now for a new team made of less popular Pokemon.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/statswitch-190137795
Is there any particular reason you chose to run Wish on your Sally on this battle instead of Roost? I hadn't noticed it had access to Wish and he's on my team, so I was wondering what the metagame-specific benefits of having it are. Obviously it means you can pass health to your allies, but Sally gets statused so often he kinda needs to heal up, and it's really unreliable to switch in at half hp and hope to live until your Wish engages. Just looking for some insight ;)
 
Wish passing.

The logic would be more accurately summarized as: "lol Ghoul King thinks he knows how to stall he doesn't know how to stall"

I replaced the Salamence fairly quickly once I realized A: it wasn't a good contributer to the team and B: I was a moron who had no idea what I was doing with it.
 
Could Greninja be a decent physical wall?
It has two priority attacks (ws & sn) to help make its type ideal.
Idk, could work as a gimmick.
 
Could Greninja be a decent physical wall?
It has two priority attacks (ws & sn) to help make its type ideal.
Idk, could work as a gimmick.
I used it for a while as a Spikes setter and it worked well, but wasn't excellent or anything. The slow U-turn is nice too. I'm thinking that Greninja's priority might be a tad too weak to work outside of a gimmick. Who knows though, the type change may make that much of a difference.
 
It's very Specially fragile, but I've found Greninja invaluable for laughing forever at

Aggron

Mega Aggron

Shuckle

Regirock (When people are foolish enough to use it)

Golurk (Tricky to switch in on though)

Forretress

and a number of other Pokemon that I've never seen people use but that have alarming potential, such as Crustle.

It's also OK at setting Spikes and it's slow U-Turn is useful for stuff like ensuring you can get Breloom's Toxic Orb activated. Other than that it's kind of meh, with no recovery (Not even Drain Punch, which mystifies me), not much in the way of support moves, and no other amazing Physical moves of equivalent utility to Water Shuriken.
 
I find it weird that I don't run into any teams that run a hazard clearer. It seems people just want to go heavy offense without setting/clearing any hazards? I think I might start abusing this and run hazards of my own.
 

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