Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Arash]

Did you even read what I said? Toxapex can tank an Outrage, Venu can tank a Thousand Arrows, and I can make that argument because it is choice locked 90% of the time. Can it be difficult to play around? That's just like saying can Ground in general be hard to deal with, which is a resounding yes. Is it impossible? Absolutely not, it is very check-able.

I did read it, but then I thought that there would be no reason for Zydog to ever click anything besides Thousand Arrows vs a poison team, since the only thing that doesn't suffer massive damage / death after SR is Mega-Venusaur. Even vs Mega-Venusaur, if you click Thousand Arrows and only shave off 1/3 health, you can safely assume max/max+ defense, and rather than attack again, you can switch to LO lando-i (or lati@s, if dragon team) since you know it will use Synthesis on the next turn, and put immense pressure on the poison team.

Toxapex being able to tank an Outrage means nothing when Zydog has no reason to ever use Outrage vs poison.

EDIT: The problem isn't just that poison has no switch-ins, as there are many pokemon like Hoopa-U that have an answer for everything on the opponent's type. The problem is that with SR support (easy on ground and dragon) there is not even prediction required: get your banded max speed zydog in (either on a sac, or a predicted non-attacking move), click thousand arrows, watch something die, rinse and repeat. There is no teambuilding savvy that can prevent this, as air balloons and ground immunities are ignored, and the only common poke that can switch in and not get instantly pwned is mega-venusaur, who can't exactly fight back w/o HP ice. I can't speak much for electric and rock and fire, but I imagine their problems are similar if not worse..

 

[Vid]

Going away from the ban happy discussion, I'd like to discuss a forgotten and underrated threat in Sun and Moon Monotype

Mega Slowbro was something that never crossed my mind until a week ago because simply I forgot it was on the list of Megas that are obtainable in Sun and Moon.(Teambuilder says Mega Slowbro and Mega Garchomp are banned, which is a glitch)

Simply put Sun and Moon hasn't been very kind to Mega Slowbro with the introduction of terrain summoners. One of Mega Slowbro's best sets was Rest-Talk isn't as good because Misty Terrain makes Rest fail. However, Misty Terrain prevents status most notably, Burn and Poison. This means Mega Slowbro can almost always run Slack Off / Calm Mind / Scald / plus a filler (Psyshock most likely). Another major nerf to Mega Slowbro is the new Knock Off mechanics (basically Knock Off has 97.5 even on Mega Stones) meaning Physical Dark types such as Bisharp can be troublesome. I feel like Mega Slowbro is a lot more manageable than it was in ORAS. A couple new Pokemon come to mind when talking about Mega Slowbro's fall from grace namely, Kartana, Tapu Koko, and Raichu-Alola, which all threaten Mega Slowbro in some way.

set

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Psyshock

I've been using this set and I have had a lot success with it. The set is used as an attempt to sweep and to hit Mega Venusaur. Mega Slowbro itself is unique as a set up sweeper having Shell Armor meaning it cannot be struck by a critical hit. Shell Armor is very useful especially after a free Calm Mind because critical hits go through stat boosts meaning Mega Slowbro can easily win if your opponent makes a misplay or simply doesn't have the right Pokemon in. I've found myself with Mega Slowbro waiting to Mega evolve because Regenerator can be very useful as regular Slowbro can still tank many physical attacks. However, Mega Slowbro is not a Pokemon that can sweep an entire team without the proper support. One of biggest problems with Mega Slowbro especially in Sun and Moon Monotype is Poison status. More specifically badly Poison status puts Mega Slowbro on a timer and has become a lot more common because of the Burn nerf and Thunder Wave/Paralysis nerf. Pokemon that would often run Wil-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave are now running Toxic. Prime examples of this include Lanturn running Toxic over Thunder Wave and Mega Sableye running Toxic and Wil-O-Wisp on the same set. While I've been playing with Mega Slowbro on Balanced Water, I have not had much success with a Swampert + Mantine core simply because the core doesn't have a cleric. The Lanturn + Empoleon core is better for a Balanced Water build based around Mega Slowbro. Simply put Lanturn has access to Heal Bell and can slow Volt Switch giving Mega Slowbro more opportunities to set up and sweep. The main reason to use Mega Slowbro is for its ability to easily sweep unprepared teams. From what I have played the majority of the time if a Mega Slowbro with a single Calm Mind Boost is at or above 80% of its health, it has a good chance to sweep most types without a powerful special wallbreaker(super effective hit think Choice Specs Hoopa-U), a physical set up sweeper(Bisharp Super Effective move is needed), Badly Poison(Mantine, Zapdos etc.), or an extremely powerful super effective hit (Mega Sharpedo). However, Mega Slowbro cannot always get a Calm Mind Boost while retaining a high percentage of its health because simply before a Calm Mind Boost Mega Slowbro does not take powerful special hits very well.

Does Mega Slowbro mean the eventually return of Stall Water?
While building teams with Mega Slowbro, I thought about Stall Water and the impact Mega Slowbro could have on it. In ORAS Stall Water always lacked a dedicated win condition. When playing Stall Water it seemed like the game plan was very reliant on Toxic stalling with no real win condition. Mega Slowbro provides a late game win condition along with a way to reliably break Mega Venusaur. The short answer is Stall Water definitely is better with Mega Slowbro. However, I do not think Stall Water is very good at the moment because of the various strong offensive threats in the current Sun and Moon Monotype metagame.

Psychic
I feel Mega Slowbro is overshadowed on Psychic because bulkier Psychic builds seem to never succeed. This is mostly due to how common Dark-type coverage is and autolosing to setup sweepers such as Bisharp. That along with Psychic having two amazing Megas in Mega Metagross and Mega Alakazam. However, Mega Slowbro can still be used, but the opportunity cost of not using one of the other Megas is immense.

Personally I feel Mega Slowbro is a cool Pokemon to use in Monotype and it seems to not be as broken as it was in ORAS Monotype.

 

[Endal]

In response to iVid, I agree that I'm not quite sure on the ban worthiness of Mega Slowbro quite yet. As he stated, Mega Slowbro was sort of forgotten in the new generation with the new mega buffs and unbans. It's kind of like when you get a baby brother or sister and your parents start to only pay attention to them and forget how awesome you are too. I'll post a quick core that I enjoy using with Mega Slowbro and Gothitelle on Psychic. I'm deadass lazy so i won't post sprites of the Slowbro and Goth. maybe later

Mega Slowbro set AKA Dj Khaled

Slowbro-Mega (M) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Iron Defense
- Slack Off

Gothitelle set AKA Solemn Judgment

Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Psychic
- Trick
- Rest / Magic Coat / Hidden Power [Fire] / (filler really)

Mega Slowbro is nearly unbeatable by physical attackers with an Iron Defense. (I'll post some calcs later) Get some calm minds up and you'll beat most special attackers 1v1 as well. Now what beats this set? Well Water absorb users such as gastrodon, seismitoad come to mind. Another common check is haze toxapex. What beats these? Gothitelle. Ground is in deep doodoo once their water absorb user gets trapped by goth. I'll edit this post with more information that comes to mind. Deuces.

 

[Wanka]

Alright I'm going to address some things about zydog that I think are being left out and are actually pretty important when analyzing it's effect on the meta.

I've been reading over some of the posts that want zyg gone and there have been some valid statements, but I think there is something important to look at with zydog. If you look at the types it's usable on (ground and dragon), one thing that stands out to me about those types is that neither of them have any method of grabbing momentum. I guess EJ button hippo kinda counts but I'm p sure that shit sucks so far and not many ppl are using it so I'm not really gunna count that. So neither of them have methods of grabbing momentum right, and zydog has the defensive utility of an infant. There is no sort of ungodly ability that zydog has that lets it constantly be finding its way into battles. Fuck at least hoopa could find at least some ways with it's good special bulk but zydog really can't switch in on anything. That tells me that the only way it's finding its way into battles are thru double switching or after something dies on your side. Like I'm just knifing through my teams and I have a lot of types built and I just don't really see anything on a wide majority of types (including poison, elec, and rock) that it can switch in on. I don't like that mons are analyzed with this ungodly ability to find its way in and out of matches multiple times because it just isn't realistic. And if 99% of the time the only way it gets in is after an opponent dies or doubling, that is completely healthy. Double switching is a healthy aspect of a meta and revenge killing speaks for itself. I think that just needed to be addressed.

Now I'd like to dive into some specific matchups that have been mentioned because again, I think some things have been left out.

Poison vs. Dragon

- I don't remember fully but I think I saw someone say in their post that "poison vs drag is in drag's favor now because of zydog." I honestly think it was somewhat lopsided in gen 6 without zydog's presence. There are plenty of things on dragon teams that give poison a massive headache other than zydog. LO kyu-b (which is its best set) did and still is extremely difficult for poison teams to deal with due to its mixed attacking capabilities and teravolt. Mega chomp was also a headache if you came across one as it really put pressure on venusaur being able to stay healthy. Calm mind mega latias sets were also quite annoying to deal with as it didn't need too much support to be able to set up vs poison teams. specs hydre and dragalge had no switchins either so I don't understand where that argument came from. Venu is a hard check to zydog and as long as you are able to force the damn thing out, it's not going to be coming back in unless the dragon user predits correctly, or you get a kill. Yeah you can just switch to a lati but then the pressure get's put on the dragon user because they have to fear the free muk switch, which would get them trapped and just like that, u either lose a mon or have to make a play to get out of that situation. Again, the pressure is on the dragon user there, not the other way around. I'd even argue that poison got more help in that matchup this gen with nihi's introduction. It has the ability to further pressure teams with dazzling gleam and pick up boosts to make it harder to revenge kill. It outspeeds all of dragons physical attackers with a choice scarf and has very good special bulk to make it very hard for dragons special attackers to revenge it. It would be harder for it to function against teams with bulky latias sets or dragalge's but dragon teams are going to be tougher to build this gen with the intro of zydog. You are going to be sacking a mon you would usually use on ur dragon team to be able to use zydog whether it's a lati, hydreigon, or dragalge. Not saying zydog bumping one of those makes dragon worse but it will be tricky to choose which one to fodder because they all provide key defensive utilities that dog doesn't.

Ground vs. Poison

- Imo, still a tough matchup for poison, but still very winnable as it was in gen 6. Venusaur 1v1s 2/3 of ground teams still and as long as you have some sort of levitate support with it, you can have a chance vs. ground. venu can handle zydog with its natural bulk and it even handles 50% with leech seed. lando I is always going to give poison a headache no matter what but even it is really pressured to stay relatively healthy because if it dips too low it gets revenged by gengar and ground teams still don't have much to switch in for gengar. Shit, even toxapex helps this matchup out a shitton because it can take a weak hit from either hippo or gastro/seis and set up some t spikes which put ground mons no a timer and make things like gengar or nidoking that much more of a threat. I don't think zydog is the main issue in this matchup as lando is still your main concern. You could very easily switch lando I in on something that is trying to wall band exca the same way you can switch it in on venu trying to wall zydog, it doesn't make that matchup any worse. I've been in this matchup a shit ton so far in gen 7 using both types, it really hasn't felt different.

I'm not going to comment much on how rock is affected because I simply haven't been able to analyze how rock does in this gen so far. I guess I can only say in regards to ground that if rocks main way of winning that matchup is via Oma, they my point about zydog not being able to find its way In as much is relevant there. Rock teams should be able to force it out or take advantage of it by setting webs on it. as long as that is possible, Oma is still going to have its chance to win the game.

Wew that was long

 

[Day Healer]

So ya, about kartana again I was able to collect some replays of my laddering, just posting them like food for thought (btw all of them are high ladder battles, so it's not like my opponents didn't know what are they doin)
And before someone ask, yeah I run scarf kartana

Vs psychic, other replay: in the first replay kartana just sweeps (it even tanks a hoopa-u drain punch), in the second one I even missplay doublade but kartana saves the day again.

Vs dragon: Kartana sweeps even with a no stab move. Granted, garchomp don't have fire blast for some reason, but all the same. Opponent have zydoge too, so yeah dat too.

Vs ghost: same story than psychics, yeah crit on megasab mattered a bit but there are ways to weaken it anyway. Also mimikyu don't stop it.

Vs water: even if it's not SS water it have toxapex, so still a legit replay.

Vs ground: featuring megagross as well. And also no, zydoge IS NOT an answer again kartana in real play.

Again poison I don't have replays at the moment (didn't save them rip), but megagross breaking alolan muk makes kartana psycho cut easy sweep.

To dont be biased I can post the threats which stop a kartana sweep:

Hide

Yeah fat kacaws, skarm stop kartana cold, (unless u are a meme and run sword dance z-sacred sword), mandi can tank a smart strike and threaten with foul play and zapdos with heat wave.

Normal fat core, stop it too.

Ya kingdra on rain outspeed and threat with an ohko (dats supposing you are running kartana in monosteel)

 

[terrors]

I've been having lots of fun using Water in this gen so far, with an amazing defensive core in Mega Slowbro + Toxapex, along with the threatening offensive presence Greninja gives out. Besides that, I feel Psychic and Steel are obviously great right now. I'm not entirely sure about what I feel about Kartana just yet, i'd like to wait a bit before I form a firm opinion on it. Anyway, after tiring myself from using broken types on the ladder, I decided to try out some of the lesser used Alolan forms. There are some that have been getting a lot of hype right now such as Muk, Raichu, Icetales, Snowslash, and Marowak but I decided to give A-Persian a try. Obviously its stats arent much with the only stat above 80 being its speed but what stood out in its movepool was Parting Shot. Parting Shot has always been a move with a cool concept but a very mediocre distribution and Z-Parting Shot makes it even better. Not only does it lower the offensive stats of the opponent while pivoting out, it restores the receiver to full health. Coupled with an excellent 115 speed, it makes A-Persian a solid pivot. I decided to try this set out:

Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Foul Play
- Toxic
- Taunt

Maximum Speed lets it abuse its amazing speed tier, outspeeding Pokemon with base 110 Speed, such as Mega Metagross, Lati@s, Gengar, and A-Raichu. Fur Coat helps fix its horrible 65/60 physical bulk although its still no physically defensive wonder. Foul Play is pretty much its best attack because its offenses aren't that great either. Toxic and Taunt let it wear down bulkier foes that it otherwise cannot. Parting Shot is the sole reason you would ever use A-Persian though but its great at allowing offensive Pokemon like Greninja, Hydreigon, Hoopa-U, and Sharpedo switch in and eases Bisharp greatly while setting up. Z-Parting Shot is generally better late-game once your Pokemon have been lowered down. I've been using this set on hyper offensive Dark so far which was definitely hit by the loss of Darkrai but is still pretty great with the huge amount of fast wallbreakers it gets.

Don't have many high ladder replays but I feel these manage to show what A-Persian does best:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493821509
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493829682
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493831276

Can't really call it an amazing Pokemon but its the only Parting Shot user that can actually abuse it.

 

[lskildum]

So ya, about kartana again I was able to collect some replays of my laddering, just posting them like food for thought (btw all of them are high ladder battles, so it's not like my opponents didn't know what are they doin)
And before someone ask, yeah I run scarf kartana

Vs psychic, other replay: in the first replay kartana just sweeps (it even tanks a hoopa-u drain punch), in the second one I even missplay doublade but kartana saves the day again.

Vs dragon: Kartana sweeps even with a no stab move. Granted, garchomp don't have fire blast for some reason, but all the same. Opponent have zydoge too, so yeah dat too.

Vs ghost: same story than psychics, yeah crit on megasab mattered a bit but there are ways to weaken it anyway. Also mimikyu don't stop it.

Vs water: even if it's not SS water it have toxapex, so still a legit replay.

Vs ground: featuring megagross as well. And also no, zydoge IS NOT an answer again kartana in real play.

Again poison I don't have replays at the moment (didn't save them rip), but megagross breaking alolan muk makes kartana psycho cut easy sweep.

To dont be biased I can post the threats which stop a kartana sweep:

Hide

Yeah fat kacaws, skarm stop kartana cold, (unless u are a meme and run sword dance z-sacred sword), mandi can tank a smart strike and threaten with foul play and zapdos with heat wave.

Normal fat core, stop it too.

Ya kingdra on rain outspeed and threat with an ohko (dats supposing you are running kartana in monosteel)

Just because High ladder does not mean they know the numbers. In thst first Psy match, I knew immediately the guy was screwed because he sent in Victini over Lele. As a grass user, I have run the numbers to figure out how to handle Victini, and a +1 Night Slash generally does it.

For the Dragon Match-Up, the Turtonator forced it out and then the Garchomp tanked it. Not to mention Steel vs Dragon. Dragon already has issues with Steel. Its not like it isn't a something we already know about.

As for Ghost, yes, Crit does matter a lot. Sab often tanks a lot from a Kartana and Will-o's right back.

The other disclaimer you did not add is that you weakened the rest of your opponents team too to make the sweep possible. That is also "food for thought." It isn't like Kartana just went in there and 6-0'd a team off the bat, which is what your description made me think. With the proper set up, yes, it can sweep, and you properly set it up, but your replays also showed the apparent flaws in Kartana too.

 

[Bitana]

Just because High ladder does not mean they know the numbers. In thst first Psy match, I knew immediately the guy was screwed because he sent in Victini over Lele. As a grass user, I have run the numbers to figure out how to handle Victini, and a +1 Night Slash generally does it.

For the Dragon Match-Up, the Turtonator forced it out and then the Garchomp tanked it. Not to mention Steel vs Dragon. Dragon already has issues with Steel. Its not like it isn't a something we already know about.

As for Ghost, yes, Crit does matter a lot. Sab often tanks a lot from a Kartana and Will-o's right back.

The other disclaimer you did not add is that you weakened the rest of your opponents team too to make the sweep possible. That is also "food for thought." It isn't like Kartana just went in there and 6-0'd a team off the bat, which is what your description made me think. With the proper set up, yes, it can sweep, and you properly set it up, but your replays also showed the apparent flaws in Kartana too.

Uh, excuse me? How is this a defense? The replays shown were good examples of how Kartana can simply win when supported by it's teammates, which is the whole point! You can't say "Oh Kartana didn't 6-0 by itself thus it has flaws". Kartana doesn't exist in a vacuum, it has teammates to handle it's flaws, and .Rawr run the team support needed for it to simply destroy teams he fought against. Even if his opponents didn't play perfectly, I notice you didn't say anything about the Ground replay, or the Water replay, were Kartana won simply because of it's STAB and the lack of checks on both types to it. Of course you have to weaken teams, it's a sweeper! The issue is that the only thing you need to weaken is Toxapex/Duggy/Zydog (not even)/The ONE mon on the opponent's side that checks Kartana for it to SNOWBALL into an easy victory, thanks to it's ability and the fact it's running a scarf.

 

[lskildum]

Uh, excuse me? How is this a defense? The replays shown were good examples of how Kartana can simply win when supported by it's teammates, which is the whole point! You can't say "Oh Kartana didn't 6-0 by itself thus it has flaws". Kartana doesn't exist in a vacuum, it has teammates to handle it's flaws, and .Rawr run the team support needed for it to simply destroy teams he fought against. Even if his opponents didn't play perfectly, I notice you didn't say anything about the Ground replay, or the Water replay, were Kartana won simply because of it's STAB and the lack of checks on both types to it. Of course you have to weaken teams, it's a sweeper! The issue is that the only thing you need to weaken is Toxapex/Duggy/Zydog (not even)/The ONE mon on the opponent's side that checks Kartana for it to SNOWBALL into an easy victory, thanks to it's ability and the fact it's running a scarf.

The reason this is a defense is that other Pokemon fulfill similar roles. How is any other scarf Moxie user different? That snowballs too. Scarfed Salamance or Heracross. Krookodile and Honchkrow too, though to lesser degree. Everyone is calling foul about Scarftana when Scarfmance's Outrage is actually stronger than that!

252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 267-315 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 250-295 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And, keep in mind, Kartana's strongest move is resisted by Bug, Dragon, Fire, Flying, Grass, Poison, and Steel (and Sap Sipper makes some Pokemon immune too). Going into Sacred Sword, Kartana loses Stab. Going into Smart Strike it loses 20 BP, while Outrage is only resisted by Steel and Fairy is immune. Should you like another example, here you go:

252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 253-298 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 250-295 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Both of these moxie users hit harder than Kartana and get the same ability (in essense). And these two are not banworthy, so why is Kartana?

Also, for those of you who are interested:

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 250-295 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

VS.

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 390-460 (127 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Yes, under terrain)
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 357-421 (116.2 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 318-375 (103.5 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 259-306 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


As for general power:

252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 585-688 (190.5 - 224.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 468-552 (152.4 - 179.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 375-442 (122.1 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kartana does not compare to either of them, even under band.

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 562-663 (183 - 215.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even at +1 Banded Kartana is outdone by a Banded Tapu Bulu under Grassy Terrain. Not to mention, pretty much every Pokemon mentioned in this post has better bulk than Kartana.

 

[Dece1t]

The reason this is a defense is that other Pokemon fulfill similar roles. How is any other scarf Moxie user different? That snowballs too. Scarfed Salamance or Heracross. Krookodile and Honchkrow too, though to lesser degree. Everyone is calling foul about Scarftana when Scarfmance's Outrage is actually stronger than that!

252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 267-315 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 250-295 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And, keep in mind, Kartana's strongest move is resisted by Bug, Dragon, Fire, Flying, Grass, Poison, and Steel (and Sap Sipper makes some Pokemon immune too). Going into Sacred Sword, Kartana loses Stab. Going into Smart Strike it loses 20 BP, while Outrage is only resisted by Steel and Fairy is immune. Should you like another example, here you go:

252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 253-298 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 250-295 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Both of these moxie users hit harder than Kartana and get the same ability (in essense). And these two are not banworthy, so why is Kartana?

Also, for those of you who are interested:

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 250-295 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

VS.

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 390-460 (127 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Yes, under terrain)
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 357-421 (116.2 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 318-375 (103.5 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 259-306 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You're making pointless calcs. Yes, we get its a sweeper, and yes, we know it is not the only sweeper in existence. You're missing the point that Kartana can threaten a much bigger array of types. The only types it honestly has trouble against is Dragon, Fire, Flying, Bug, and Steel. Any neutral or advantage match up it can be incredibly threatening, it has the ability to completely obliterate Water, Ground, Electric, Psychic, Rock, and I can list more. That is where it is a much different story compared to Kyurem-B, Salamence, Krookodile, and other sweepers. Also, what are you accomplishing bringing up Xurkitree as an opposing mon? Why not use common walls and/or Pokémon notable for being threats to Steel and Grass?

 

[lskildum]

You're making pointless calcs. Yes, we get its a sweeper, and yes, we know it is not the only sweeper in existence. You're missing the point that Kartana can threaten and much bigger array of types. The only types it honestly has trouble against is Dragon, Fire, Flying, Bug, and Steel. Any neutral or advantage match up it can be incredibly threatening, it has the ability to completely obliterate Water, Ground, Electric, Psychic, Rock, and I can list more. That is where it is a much different story compared to Kyurem-B, Salamence, Krookodile, and other sweepers. Also, ehat are you accomplishing bringing up Xurkitree as an opposing mon? Why not use common walls and/or Pokémon notable for being threats to Steel and Grass?

Note: I was originally using Pikachu just for the sake of having a Pokemon for the calculations and being neutral to everything I wanted to calculate. It was just for sheer power, nothing more. And these are not pointless. Far from it. Kartana is not as strong as people are making it out to be. Mega Medicham was not banned to keep Rock viable, or anything weak to Fighting in general. Same with Terrakion. Terrakian also gets Rock Stab too. Ice is demolished by Terrakion in general, and what can it do against it? Yet these Pokemon are not banned. I see little point to crying foul over Kartana with these Pokemon still allowed in monotype.

 

[Dece1t]

Note: I was originally using Pikachu just for the sake of having a Pokemon for the calculations and being neutral to everything I wanted to calculate. And these are not pointless. Far from it. Kartana is not as strong as people are making it out to be. Mega Medicham was not banned to keep Rock viable, or anything weak to Fighting in general. Same with Terrakion. Terrakian also gets Rock Stab too. Ice is demolished by Terrakion in general, and what can it do against it? Yet these Pokemon are not banned. I see little point to crying foul over Kartana with these Pokemon still allowed in monotype.

You're not getting the point though. Kartana's base 181 attack, along with a good speed tier and Beast Boost (which depending on how you make the set can even let you rise speed) is what's making it a huge discussion point, and the fact that the coverage/STABs it has along with that can be considered hefty. There are also matchups that really can't change, and you need to know that when you're considering what is balanced for the metagame. Your Terrakion vs Ice example (I'll just simplify it to just Fighting), no matter what we do, there is no foolproof way to make it a more balanced matchup, without completely nerfing a large portion of the metagame--it's completely necessary. Ice is just a type that has a harder time adapting to the metagame, and Ghost last gen is a great example of where we needed to ban something for the betterment of the rest of the metagame. Scpinion also has a "Talonflame vs Mega Scizor" example in the OP that I'd urge you to look at that covers the dilemma you're crying over. I want to also remind you the philosophy is not to keep all types viable, it is that no one-type should be overpowered, with what I mentioned previously being said.

Edit: When you're doing calcs, I'll say this a 2nd time since you clearly didn't read what I said the 1st time (considering you just said you were originally going to use Pikachu for your calcs), you should do them with common defensive walls in the metagame/Pokemon that can directly threaten a type (lets say for the sake of Kartana Landorus-I or Heatran) so what your calcing directly makes sense to an argument you're trying to make.

 

[lskildum]

You're not getting the point though. Kartana's base 181 attack, along with a good speed tier and Beast Boost (which depending on how you make the set can even let you rise speed) is what's making it a huge discussion point, and the fact that the coverage/STABs it has along with that can be considered hefty. There are also matchups that really can't change, and you need to know that when you're considering what is balanced for the metagame. Your Terrakion vs Ice example (I'll just simplify it to just Fighting), no matter what we do, there is no foolproof way to make it a more balanced matchup, without completely nerfing a large portion of the metagame--it's completely necessary. Ice is just a type that has a harder time adapting to the metagame, and Ghost last gen is a great example of where we needed to ban something for the betterment of the rest of the metagame. Scpinion also has a "Talonflame vs Mega Scizor" example in the OP that I'd urge you to look at that covers the dilemma you're crying over. I want to also remind you the philosophy is not to keep all types viable, it is that no one type should not be overpowered, with what I mentioned previously being said.

I am aware of this point. YOU are missing something vital to this. Kartana is inhibited by its movepool where its strongest move is 90 BP. Water is the only type that I find massively hurt by Kartana as Rock was not good prior to this Gen, and Ground only has weaknesses to Leaf Blade from Kartana, which is resisted by several of its Pokemon. Onto Smart Strike, Ice was not particularly viable before Gen 7, Fairy could use a good solid counter but it still has Scizor where things like Tapu Fini and Koko still apply, only being x1 to Steel. And I already mentioned Rock.

EVEN STILL, if we ignore type match ups and look solely at Grass and Steel, is it a problem that Grass gets it? I think not. I have found that Grass has gotten more usage due to Kartana, but do we really care about grass? Grass is far from overpowered. Steel is the topic of discussion, and it always has been. Sure, Kartana can sweep the types that it chooses, but it has limited coverage, limiting the types it can sweep. Mega Metagross is the bigger issue, dominating pretty much any type that it chooses due to is various coverage moves. And its bulk! Besides, what matchups does Kartana make a huge difference on? Fire? With that x4 weakness and no move to supereffectively hit it? Ground? Yes, it does help with Ground, but, as I said before, Ground has several dual typed Pokemon which are x1 to Leaf Blade. And this is ignoring the effects Zydog has, helping Ground out vs Steel. Now Fighting? Sure, Kartana has Psycho Cut, but Psycho Cut is 70 BP, and not even Stab. Mega Metagross is better for Fighting with Stab Zen Headbutt and being only x1 to Fighting. Kartana alone might make matchups easier for steel, but not in any sort of way that is completely broken.

P.S. That's fine. I will keep that in mind for the future. Still doesn't change the fact that people are crying foul over Kartana when it doesn't do much harm to the monotype metagame.

 

[ArkenCiel]

Was waiting for some feedback on the replays to understand if Metagross-Mega is deemed broken or not, but I got neither an unbiased response nor a not-so-unbiased response about it, so I may as well post my third batch of replays dealing with Metagrossite on Psychic before the results for this week comes out.

I'd like to recap the first and second batch of replays first though before I get onto that, just so we're all on the same page of what we're dealing with walking into this third batch of replays. I couldn't get the replays I wanted on the ladder, so instead I tried to capture MegaGross' "broken" traits from the ones I did get. The replays I shared showed that it can tank +6 AJet with no defensive investment (among other things), has the coverage to deal with what it wants, and has both speed & power to deal with threats appropriately ALONG with the fact it belongs on two great types that are fine without it; Metagross-Mega has everything going for it. Some of those replays weren't against the best of players or the best teams, but they illustrated MegaGross' traits just fine and should be considered for what it shows regardless of content - with a grain of salt if needed.

I understand people want practical results though, so I went on to gather just that for Steel. Some of the usual threats to Steel Pokemon couldn't KO Metagross-Mega with a STAB Ground move on the physical side (Scarf Lando/Band Zydog) or were forced to switch out (Things like Landorus-I) only to get punished later on. Dugtrio, which was a suggested 'mon to have against Metagross was just flat out KO'd with BPunch after hazards, not making it as reliable as it was made out to be. If preserved well, Metagross-Mega can just break teams on its own and eliminate the usual threats. I only pumped out 4 replays, but Steel has so many good match-ups that an excuse like "it would have lost anyway" could be used, so I moved onto collect replays for Psychic.

So here are some more replays that are "deceptive as ever", but this time on Psychic. Anyone who might be thinking it wasn't broken on Psychic should hopefully change their mind because my strategy for this team mostly relied on Metagross-Mega and reviving it with Healing Wish to let it do its own thing.

VS Dragon | VS Poison | VS Ice | VS Fighting | VS Rock

I think it was inherently accepted that it broke Fairy, so there's that too. I could've changed sets between matches to make Metagross-Mega look even worse, but it wasn't necessary to go that far just to show it. There are arguably "more broken things" out there right now depending on who you talk to, but that shouldn't be a reason to wait when we've got replays, calcs, and arguments to look back to. If it doesn't get banned, it would be nice to know what the reasoning is, so we can all move on from it.

 

[Bitana]

Uh, just going to comment on a mon that people apparently think is good for Rock to "check" Kartana...

I have yet to see this Pokemon actually do something useful for Rock. Even in Declaraty's post, where he/she says that Minior is a "Kartana check", the only thing Minior could ever do to Kartana is HP Fire, everything else would fail to OHKO. Alongside this, both Steel and Grass have multiple walls able to tank most of Minior's common moves. Even against types like Fighting (As if anyone played THAT anymore) it hasn't put in much work simply because of the fact that Rock still loses to Keldeo and no one is dumb enough to actually attack this on the setup turn. Simply switch to a pokemon that can outspeed/take a hit and OHKO it back. This is a huge flaw with Minior, and the fact that Rock lacks ability to support it makes it not as great of a Pokemon as people seem to think in my opinion.

+2 252 Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 174-205 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (That's no item btw, assuming white herb)
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Minior: 294-348 (112.6 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What a check.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Vs ground: featuring megagross as well. And also no, zydoge IS NOT an answer again kartana in real play.

tbf in this replay i played like shit and sacked my kartana check (hence my username)

for me the main problem in ground v steel has been kartana and megagross, if its just one or the other its manageble but when its both it becomes very difficult to deal with, however that is probably since i lack a hippo since im trying sandless.

my kartana check on ground so far has been a scarf dugtrio which outspeeds traps and kills kartana (unlike sash which loses once they set hazards)

molemen (Dugtrio) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 48 SpA / 208 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Night Slash

48 SpA Dugtrio Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 260-308 (100.3 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

given spatk will ohko kartana (4 spdef sunce wynaut) max out atk and 208+ spe hits 359 aka 1 speed point less than base 115s, scarf also lets you outspeed magaerna after a shift gear which is nice

however talking with other ground users if you arent going full meme you either a) run bulk chomp or lando, usually chomp since lando i is bae or b) switchin hippo and get exca to outspeed and ko in sand

idk this is mainly just my experience on ladder + talking to people on ps so maybe you cab talk with ground mains like kgb who are actually good

ps zypupper isnt giving me free wins against everything on ladder its not as borked as it seemed i demand a refund :p

scp edit: discuss the meta and let me moderate the thread

 

[lskildum]

scp edit: discuss the meta and let me moderate the thread

Uh, just going to comment on a mon that people apparently think is good for Rock to "check" Kartana...

I have yet to see this Pokemon actually do something useful for Rock. Even in Declaraty's post, where he/she says that Minior is a "Kartana check", the only thing Minior could ever do to Kartana is HP Fire, everything else would fail to OHKO. Alongside this, both Steel and Grass have multiple walls able to tank most of Minior's common moves. Even against types like Fighting (As if anyone played THAT anymore) it hasn't put in much work simply because of the fact that Rock still loses to Keldeo and no one is dumb enough to actually attack this on the setup turn. Simply switch to a pokemon that can outspeed/take a hit and OHKO it back. This is a huge flaw with Minior, and the fact that Rock lacks ability to support it makes it not as great of a Pokemon as people seem to think in my opinion.

+2 252 Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 174-205 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (That's no item btw, assuming white herb)
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Minior: 294-348 (112.6 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What a check.

You are correct in that it isn't a real check as Kartana will KO first, but the calculation should be done with Minior (the Core), not Minior-Meteor. The Base Stats are pretty different. Should Minior be Sashed, it will KO a Kartana, but that doesn't make it a particularly good check imo. Rock really isn't defendable to me.

 

[Eien]

Speaking of Minior, wanted to show off a really fun set I made for Flying teams:

Minior-Indigo @ Rockium Z
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Pretty much everyone is using White Herb + Acrobatics, which is definitely really good. This set is a bit different, though, and requires less help with wearing down walls. With a 180 Base Power Z Stone Edge, Minior is basically able to OHKO (after Stealth Rock for guarantees) almost every relevant wall in the metagame. Slowbro is OHKOed 50% of the time, same with Skarmory (but watch out for Sturdy!), and even physically defensive Toxapex can easily be OHKOed. Even max Defense Mega Sableye and Rotom-W are OHKOed every time. It's ridiculous. To back up Stone Edge, Earthquake forms the powerful EdgeQuake coverage. And to handle the likes of Ferrothorn and Kartana, Hidden Power Fire is used. This is totally niche and very, very rarely relevant, but Mega Charizard Y's Drought boosts Hidden Power Fire's damage to guarantee the OHKO on Skarmory if Z Stone Edge is already used up and Ferrothorn.

Do be more careful though! Without White Herb, priority is much more effective. In fairness, most priority would have OHKOed Minior anyway in Core forme. It's also a bit harder to set up, as Slowbro's Scald OHKOes at -1, where it wouldn't if a White Herb were used. That being said, I've found a great amount of success with this set, thanks to its greater power from Z Stone Edge to take out a "check" and its better coverage in Hidden Power Fire.

 

[iLlama]

This is going to be a long night. I want to reply to you and couple others, but this is just way too much misinformed writing that needs correcting for me to handle.

Terrakion has the ability to obliterate Ice and Rock. Scizor has the ability to obliterate Fairy, Ice, and Rock. Tapu Lele has the ability to obliterate Fighting. Zy-10% obliterates Electric. Mega Metagross obliterates Poison. I could go on an on. These Pokemon will never get banned for this reason, so please don't base your argument on that when, if you read the first post, Pokemon are banned for making their type strong, rather than if they make some matchups harder.

Even with this in mind, you are wrong.


Water can absolutely handle Kartana. Slowbro tanks a hit at +1 and returns with Flamethrower. Mega Slowbro brings it up a notch and can even tank +2! Toxapex walls it, avoids becoming setup fodder with Haze, and can (albeit very slowly) wear it down with Scald, where, should it burn on one of those attacks, kills Kartana effectively. Does Kartana skew Grass's matchup against Water? Of course it does. But don't say it obliterates water when its most popular core (Tox + Bro) BOTH handle it!


Excadrill, LANDORUS-THERIAN, Gliscor, and a few others all deal with Kartana very swiftly. Does it skew the matchup? Yes. Does it obliterate ground? Heck no!


I find this one the funniest. No, it does not obliterate Electric. No, it does not obliterate Alolan Raichu + Tapu Koko, nor does it obliterate Scarf Xurkitree (lives a Leaf Blade), Rotom-Heat, or Thundurus. Does it skew the mathup? ...no?


Scarf Victini, Scarf Hoopa-Unbound if Kartana is not scarfed. Otherwise, Latios, Mega Metagross, Mega Alakazam all check Kartana very well by tanking a Night Slash, then proceeding to OHKO it. Does it skew the matchup? Perhaps a little bit. Does it obliterate psychic? No, it does not.


This one seems the hardest to defend, but I still disagree. Rock got an extremely efficient Kartana check in Minior that can eat any attack that Kartana, scarf or not, hits it with, then proceed to Shell Smash and OHKO with Acrobatics. Does it skew the matchup? Yes, definitely. Does it obliterate Rock? "Obliterate" is not the word since Rock has a clear and very good answer for it.

Concerning your 2nd post, lskildum already proved that 181 Attack isn't really all that good, since even Heracross hits harder. So your arguments are now "109 Speed" and "Moxie." Kartana is very good for both of those reasons, but I am not sure you can call a Pokemon broken with those two qualities alone, especially since something like Salamence posesses them (sutract 109 speed with 100 + DD), yet has a better offensive typing, coverage, HITS HARDER, and has better bulk. I am really not seeing the argument for Kartana. Please, someone tell me why these points are not valid. I have yet to see a concrete reason other than "181 atk!!!1!!1!" or "109 speed + moxie."

Also, you said you could mention more types. I'd like for you to do so.

Right, so, first off, let's just put some pretty important calcs to note here because I seriously have no clue how you got your assumptions so off. Did you not just use /calc?

Water:
+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 390-458 (98.9 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 294-348 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just so you know, those calcs are with Scarf, since you didn't list a spread or item for any of your argument, I'm going to assume you meant Scarf and 252 Atk. Pretty much already mentioned how Water has practically nothing to handle Kartana so replying beyond this is actually pointless.

Ground:
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 175-207 (67.5 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 378-446 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 283-334 (78.3 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 136-162 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 136-162 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 99-117 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 99-117 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- 12.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 123-145 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 63.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Sorry, but did you actually just say that Excadrill can deal with Kartana. At this point, I'm not even sure if you have even used calcs to back up your arguments at all so this is kind of absurd. As we can see, the common Ground spread for Lando-t loses to Kartana 95.7% of the time. The only reason I posted the OU Defensive set is to show that yes, obviously a nearly fully-invested Intimidate mon can take physical hits from an originally +0 physical attacker. However, you forget to mention the fact that Lando-t has no recovery and really, can't do anything back to Kartana besides chip damage with EQ, unless you happen to be running HP Fire; which at this point, I wouldn't doubt. Yes, Gliscor can take on Kartana so you got me there, I guess? All it can really do is PP Stall and chip and pretty much hope to god it isn't Life Orb, Choice Band, or Z-Crystal because you'll be pretty much screwed.

Electric:
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 217-256 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 328-387 (125.6 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 250-295 (81.4 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 126-148 (42.1 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Guess I'll just start this off with, um... why would you run Rotom-Heat on Electric? Oh, to specifically check this one Pokemon arbitrarily named 'Kartana?' Sounds a tad centralizing to have a Pokemon on your team just for 1 threat. Also, 'living a hit' doesn't constitute not losing to a Pokemon. This would be referred to as an extremely 'soft' check, which is comparable to Weakness Policy Rhyperior on Rock for Mega Medicham.

Psychic:
252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 286-337 (95 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 236-278 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 267-315 (106.3 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 278-328 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah, why would you even list Scarf Hoopa-Unbound as an option for handling Kartana? You've obviously been talking about Scarf Kartana this entire time, and guess what, it's kind of a tad faster than Hoopa. I'm kind of reiterating myself now, but did you actually calc this stuff? Like, how can you literally get every single calc wrong??? But yeah, Scarf Latios outspeeds with HP Fire so that helps, I guess.

Rock:
Well, after all that, not even talking about this type. It just loses, sorry. There's nothing to say. I'm really trying to not trigger Eien here, but you can technically use Magcargo, I guess? I'm sure it actually tanks nothing, especially after Stealth Rock, so it's probably pointless anyways.

So, 181 Attack Kartana isn't as good as 125 Attack Heracross because the latter gets a base 30 higher STAB move? Yeah, sure, whatever you say pal. This whole, 'hit harder' talk is pretty laughable. It's like saying, "Slaking hits like a truck, so it's obviously better than Diggersby." Would love to comment more, but this really doesn't need any more discussion.

Please, if you haven't already, read the OP for this thread and try to understand how the Monotype metagame works. These completely false posts need to not be posted anymore.

E: Trying to fix the coding, so annoying
E2: I give up, sorry for the long calcs

 

[Dece1t]

Hello, thank you for actually responding and addressing the points that I made.

I can definitely see why I caused some confusion with my post. I was off on Excadrill and Minior somewhat, but I can explain myself with all the other ones. Right away, if you read my post, I mentioned Alakazam for the SPECIFIC scenario in which it is not scarfed. If you did not know, a check is a Pokemon who is NOT meant to live a hit from the Pokemon it is checking, and none of these obviously do. Rather, a check beats it by virtue of it being faster and OHKOing it with its attacks. If you were thinking of counters, then yeah, none of them do. There is no reason to calc that Alakazam dies to Night Slash. On another note, I mentioned that Alakazam SPECIFICALLY checks Non-Scarf Kartana variants, but you conveniently did not mention that. On Rotom-Heat, some people ran it last gen as a solid grass check, but that's irrelevant. Electric CHECKS it without Rotom-Heat anyway, so I am not sure why I mentioned that. I didn't feel like I needed to check that these Pokemon only CHECK Kartana and it's not like they counter it, but apparently I do. Let's say we drop this entire discussion and it is revealed you are right and I am not. That yes, these types are powerless against it. As a 3 year Monotype player, I fully understand how Monotype works. I also read the first post. Evidently, you did not.



Ripped from Post 1.

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters I don't think you know what exactly a check is. You may want to refer to that. I also noticed how you conveniently didn't mention almost all of the Pokemon you already listed as well.

 

[scpinion]

Let's drop this petty back and forth over Kartana. Everyone else understands who thinks it is broken and who doesn't from your posts.

More importantly, you're clearly not going to change each other's minds, so let's just respect that some people disagree and keep the discussion focused on the metagame at large instead of random Kartana calcs.

 

[terrors]

Can't believe Xurkitree has barely been touched in this thread so far. I'm not entirely sure where the Scarf Xurkitree hype began from, and although its a really great scarfer I just feel it wastes the wallbreaking potential it has with Tail Glow. A pretty easy way to fix its problem with Speed is Sticky Web. Galvantula Electric was never really popular back in Gen 6 but I feel it has the potential to be a lot better with all the crazy strong Pokemon Electric teams got and the overall offensive nature of the current meta. Even besides that, Xurkitree gets some really cool Z-Moves that can increase Speed including Elec Terrain, Hypnosis, and Rain Dance. Out of these 3 Z-Hypnosis is easily the best one because it allows Xurkitree to set up Tail Glow next turn assuming no first turn wakes. This set was popular on Darkrai when it was allowed and can probably work pretty well on Xurk too.

Xurkitree @ Psychium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball

I've been using this so far although i'm not sure what last filler coverage move is best for it. Rest of the set is pretty self explanatory, Sticky Web support from Galv can make it even easier to go for Z-Hypnosis, as its Speed pre-boost isn't amazing. Unfortunately, Hypnosis doesn't put the opponent to sleep if Elec Terrain is up and of course relying on Hypnosis isn't always the smartest play because of its very shaky accuracy but its still decent at cleaning up and can catch people off guard because most expect Scarfed Xurk.

you can tell i've been having fun with z-moves lol

 

[Moosical]

Get us some sweet replays, terrors. I've been interested in the set, as some people have mentioned it in the room chat, but haven't bothered running it yet. The main thing putting me off from it would be that you're stuck with having only 2 attacks, which could allow xurkitree to be very easily walled. With the set you provided, tons of mons will be able to wall both electric and grass types (notably almost every dragon type, and almost every grass type, both of which electric tends to have trouble with already). Granted, you still would likely do a good chunk of damage at +3 SpA, xurkitree could become semi-useless in some matchups (like when you don't have the opportunity to set up AND they have the commons resists). Provided you're running grass coverage on raichu-a, I think I'd run dazzling gleam instead of energy ball. This allows you to hit the majority of pokemon except for say, mega-venusaur, and some other assorted dual typings such as excadrill.

I'm definitely hoping for it to see some play though, it's a neat set.

 

[Mr. Miner]

Get us some sweet replays, terrors. I've been interested in the set, as some people have mentioned it in the room chat, but haven't bothered running it yet. The main thing putting me off from it would be that you're stuck with having only 2 attacks, which could allow xurkitree to be very easily walled. With the set you provided, tons of mons will be able to wall both electric and grass types (notably almost every dragon type, and almost every grass type, both of which electric tends to have trouble with already). Granted, you still would likely do a good chunk of damage at +3 SpA, xurkitree could become semi-useless in some matchups (like when you don't have the opportunity to set up AND they have the commons resists). Provided you're running grass coverage on raichu-a, I think I'd run dazzling gleam instead of energy ball. This allows you to hit the majority of pokemon except for say, mega-venusaur, and some other assorted dual typings such as excadrill.

I'm definitely hoping for it to see some play though, it's a neat set.

I'm obviously not Terrors but I actually got to use the set a bit a week-ish back and it was fun to mess around with, but you kinda had to rely on a bit of luck for it to work perfectly for you lmao. I feel like it's kinda gimmicky and you get hella walled by some things, but it was still pretty cool.

Note, I had Grass Knot > E-Ball because I used it in Ubers first and eveyrthings heavy over there. Was an entertaining match nonetheless.

 

[ScorpionZ]

You guys do realize they dont do bans base on if a poke beats a type anymore there was a change in philosophy. Especially to mons that already beat that type or is super effective against it. Zydog wont get banned if you guys just keep bringing up electric,rock,poison you need to prove that it breaks other types that its not super effective against other than that your points really are just complaints to you forcing yourself on a type that has a big threat in the current meta. As i said before its like scizor/terrakion to ice and its like a keldeo to rock though its a pain and hard to work around they arent broken. You just got to work that much harder now to keep up with the current meta. To further defend zydog its a slight buff to ground when it comes to certain match ups and all fairness it was needed now that grounds weakness to ice got made much hard with the added ability slush rush and new move aurora veil and such. You guys also make it seem like electric vs ground match up wasn't onesided before gravity lando was a very common threat that completely shuts down electric so I don't know why you guys choose to complain now when the same type of move was already in existence in the first place.