Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Dece1t]

I agree 100% Zydog is really good right now, but by no means would I call it bannable at this time to be completely frank. It is true that it does amplify chances of winning against types Ground already has an easy time against (i.e. Electric, Steel, and Fire), but that should not be a call for it to be banned, especially when it is checkable not to mention. The current philosophy is no one type should be overpowered, and right now, Ground really is not overpowered by any means at this time. Aside from the fact that its had actually underwhelming usage on the ladder, I believe it does still stand as one of the best mid tier types to run. It still struggles substantially against Water, and Psychic actually proves to now be harder, with of one the best Excadrill checks now being the most common Mega to run (Mega Alakazam), and Tapu Lele preventing priority (so its much harder to revenge kill Hoopa-U and Latios with Mamoswine, Sandstorm would now be necessary to be up to hopefully have Excadrill revenge kill while Psychic Terrain is up). Other than that really, there is nothing else Ground (namely Zydog variants) directly threatens to the point where it would be considered overcentralizing. It's also good to note Zydog is fairly frail, and neutral 100 base attack can often be underwhelming even with a Choice Band, despite its fantastic speed tier (it's the fastest legal Ground type atm, outside of abilities and boosting moves).

As for the Mega Metagross talk, there are some things I can sympathise with for sure, but there's others that really makes me scratch my head. For example, I believe Megagross's biggest flaw is the fact that its got a pretty good case of 4 moveslot syndrome. You can run some moves to cover a specific amount of things, but then that really leaves you vulnerable to others (example being, lets say you wanted to run Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Bullet Punch, and Hammer Arm, without Grass Knot you're gonna have a hard time against bulky Water and Ground types, or if you didn't run Hammer Arm, you'll be completely walled by most Steel types. These are only a couple, there are plenty more). That's where I feel Metagross is balanced right now, despite the Mega mechanic buff now giving it an automatic base 110 speed. There's also been arguments of if you don't run Mega Scizor on Steel, you'll be Thousand Arrows-Susceptible, or you'll be Excadrill weak if you use it over Alakazam on Psychic. It is a very good Pokemon, but in this Gen where things are starting out Offensive-based primarily, these minor flaws it had last Gen are only exemplified this time around.

 

[Shadestep]

you cant just say ban it because it beats what its suppose to. Those match ups were already unfavorable

You obviously can't, but the problem is that Zygarde-10% beats things it actually isn't supposed to, due to Thousand Arrows breaking through all Ground-immune's normally carried on teams that tend to struggle with Ground-types, generally. And yeah, obviously these match-ups are already unfavorable purely because of Type-advantage, but Zydog tops it all off by basically eliminating any Ground-resist or Immunity that people normally tend to run on Types weak to Ground, which basically turns the match-up from 'unfavorable' to 'nearly unbeatable'. I guess it's kind-of fair comparing it to Mega Scizor, but then again that is kind-of exploitable / lurable with random HP Fire Pokemon, and is also checked by bulky Rotom-F. Zydog's defensive checks are basically non-existant and would have to be taken in a very creative approach to find a right solution for checking it in a different way than usual.

Electric has pokes that can live a thousand arrows attack, it might not be a switch in but it can atleast get off a wil o wisp if needed. (Rotom-W)

What I said was that under the perfect circumstances where the Zydog-user plays perfectly, that person should always win the matchup. You shouldn't leave your Zydog in on a potential Will-O-Wisp when you know the Rotom-W can potentially live the Thousand Arrows. Pivoting into something like Seismitoad or Garchomp and getting up either SR or wittling the Rotom down with repeated attacks is a more optimal play. Obviously there will be times where your Electric team will be able to beat Zydog-Ground teams. But in theory the Zydog player should win the match, in 99% of all scenario's.

I think you might've slightly misunderstood what I was trying to say. I agree that zydog is overpowered, deserves a ban, and everything that you said, etc. When I said "I don't think TA alone destroys a prepared electric team" I meant that literally if they only had zydog, there are ways to deal with it. Given the tools (which why I mentioned scarf excadrill to such extent) that ground (and dragon) has is what makes it unwinnable. My point was that if excadrill did not exist, I believe that electric could deal with zydog ground teams. I probably was misleading in my wording that sounds like I think excadrill is more over-powered than zydog, but, that's not the case.

The only switch in electric has vs zydog is scarf sturdy magnezone (if rocks are not up), which you can only do once.

Yeah, you're right. Sorry, I misunderstood your point. Thousand Arrows alone doesn't auto-win vs the aforementioned team-structures and types, but it's the main factor in being able to win. Obviously, it'll still need support from its team members to get up SR and weaken other Pokemon like Mega Metagross (which lives an EQ from full, I'm pretty sure), as well as switch in to the stuff it can't OHKO. Zydog won't always win you the game but it will play a big role in the success of the team.

TheThorn was nice enough to let me share the team scpinion mentioned earlier with you, to test it out and see how busted it is for yourself. I'll leave the importable here, and you can click here for a replay of my game 1 match of the Monotype Team Tour, which showcases a Steel vs Ground matchup that would be heavily shifted in my opponent's favor if I didn't have Zydog, since Whirlwind Skarmory + Spikes is a very tough combination to beat, otherwise. Please note that there isn't a working Zygarde-10% minisprite yet, so I just used the regular Zygarde one.

Importable

ALL CAPS (Zygarde-10%) @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature Zy
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Iron Tail
- Extreme Speed

TRAP DOOR (Dugtrio) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Screech
- Stone Edge

THE WORLD IS YOURS (Gliscor) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 196 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Roost

JUICE (Seismitoad) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Def / 100 SpA / 104 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave
- Grass Knot

STARS (Landorus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rock Polish
- Earth Power
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

MONEY TREES (Excadrill) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin

The team functions very easily I feel, with the only big issue aside from obvious Type-disadvantages being Tapu Koko on Fairy, and Mega Metagross on Steel and Psychic. I haven't really faced things like Rock or Poison with this team yet but the matchup seems quite easy vs both, so take that for granted, I guess. Dugtrio is often key to nagging a win as it guarantees a trade most of the time, and comes in crucial often. It's used to trap Tapu Koko and Mega Metagross too, for example, although Tapu Koko outpaces it meaning Dugtrio needs to be at 100% in order to revenge it, and Mega Metagross lives 1 EQ from full, but atleast it'll permanently weaken them and leave them open for teammates like Zydog or Scarf Exca to sweep the team.

 

[-Tsunami-]

Zapdos @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SAtk
Naughty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SDef / 0 Spd
-Tailwind
-Sandstorm
-Mimic
-Sleep Talk

This Zapdos is the ultimate team supporter. It has the ability to set up Tailwind for one of its teammates, allowing that Pokemon to sweep without fear of being slower than the opposition. Sandstorm and Sticky Barb allow Zapdos to slowly whittle its own HP down, allowing the user to use Tailwind when the time is right, thus allowing the user to maximize the amount of turns their next Pokemon will be able to bask in the glory of the move. The EV spread and nature also help with this goal. Sandstorm also has the added benefit of being able to wear down the opposition and get KOes on Focus Sash users. Mimic is an extremely useful move in the 3rd slot, as it allows Zapdos to copy Explosion or other suicidal moves from enemy Azelf and the like, allowing it to more easily rid the field of its presence. Lastly, Sleep Talk allows Zapdos to set up Tailwind and then disappear from play should the opponent attempt to put it to sleep and set up on it. This Zapdos works especially great as the 2nd to last Pokemon on your team, as after it sets up Tailwind and perishes, the opponent will not be able to phaze your last Pokemon out.

Now that over a year has passed since I, SMOGON CLASSIC KING METABEAST, graced this community with metagame-defining innovation, I suppose that it is time to once again help shape this metagame. Since I am now 2-0 in the first two monotype games I've played in my life, both wins coming in the SM Release tour vs. zugubu royale and rnbs, and have established myself as by far the best monotype player, I feel that it is time to help the plebeians win in this metagame. So, presenting my amazing Kartana set which I shamelessly stole from njnp and xray:

Alice Carroll (Kartana) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 19 Atk
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike

While I find this set to be quite underwhelming in the OU metagame, it is legitimately a major threat in monotype. For those of you who are unaware, using a Timid nature with 19 Attack IVs gives Kartana 347 Attack, one less point than its Speed stat of 348. This means Beast Boost will boost Speed, thus allowing Kartana to ravage many teams after a Swords Dance. Kartana still hits significantly hard, especially when using Corkscrew Crash. Life Orb is also an option, but I feel that having Corkscrew Crash as an option is very useful. Mono-steel is extremely threatening, and is easily the best type in my opinion; this set should definitely be on every Mono-steel team.

Replay (Turn 21 on): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankanythinggoes-221253

 

[Arash]

Regarding Zygarde-10%, the issue is not so much the pokemon, but the move Thousand Arrows. If Zydog is banned (and it's a strong if, as it may not get banned), i see the same arguments being made for Zygarde-50% using a set like rest/talk/coil/TA. Would the community rather see the move "Thousand Arrows" be banned? This appears to be the major offender, and would literally only affect Zygardes (it is locked, so Smeargle can't even get it). Zygarde 10 and 50% don't appear to be broken in the slightest without this move...

 

[Bitana]

Hmm. That's honestly really interesting. Without Thousand Arrows, Zydog still maintaints it's functionality as "fastest ground mon". It would suddenly be checked by a whole load more Pokemon, particularly Flying types like Celesteela and Skarmory. I wouldn't mind it, but I don't play electric or ground or dragon, so I honestly wouldn't know how much this would really change things for those types. Still, I think it's an interesting idea.

 

[Moosical]

Yes, I would be perfectly happy with the banning of thousand arrows. I agree with the sentiment that if zygarde-10% was banned, people would just start using the rest/talk set that people were using with power construct at the release of gen7. Without thousand arrows, zygarde-10% just becomes another nice speedy mon for ground and dragon with the usual checks that you'd need for the respective types.

Edit: I do think that there are bigger threats to the metagame at the moment, and that zygarde-10% doesn't necessarily need to be assessed at the current point of the metagame, but I do see it potentially becoming out of hand once the meta settles. Just because there are bigger threats, doesn't mean that it's not worth talking about.

 

[juleocesar]

I really enjoy reading all those Zydog posts, and I believe I will have to share my opinion about it as well.

Zydog (Zygarde-10%) is currently one of the metagame major threats, but I personally don't find it that unhealthy or broken at all (in other words, I don't see any reason to prematurely ban Zygarde yet). Thousand Arrows was a godsend STAB move that allows it to ignore any kind of immunities from Ground based attacks, but I believe teams can get around it if played properly or adapt their teams to it. Although it does decimate types like Electric, it could (potentially) allow more builds to be used and explored (after all, all types have their own threats and I believe this wouldn't make it bannable as a whole). The stats aren't really that great and is somewhat predictable, so you know it is often using Choice Band sets and that it will be clicking Thousand Arrows most of the time (unless on really specific matchups like Dragon on which it should be clicking Outrage instead).

It is too early to make a call on Zygarde especially because most builds haven't had their times to be explored, and I believe bulky Grass types (on different types of course) could leave their mark on several teams so they will have a good answer for it while still bringing more utility to the team (which means you are not using those Pokemon solely for checking / countering Zygarde). Some examples include Rotom-Mow on Electric teams and Celebi on Psychic teams, but I am really looking forward on people's ideas to handle that. Of course I could be wrong here, but I certainly believe there needs to be more testing rather than taking any decisions straightfoward.

EDIT: Yes. Banning Thousand Arrows could also be an option. Just don't know if that fits the current philosophy, but wouldn't be a bad idea

By the way, I might make a post dedicated for Kartana later. I have seen loads of different people asking my opinion on it, and after some tests I have made with it, I believe my thoughts on it are more solid than before.

 

[Acast]

There's been lots of discussion and lots of calcs focusing on Mega Metagross lately. I don't know about the rest of the council, but I don't like calcs and discussion without seeing it in action. Personally, I prefer replays. They show you exactly what the pokemon can do in a real setting, which is what we should be judging pokemon based on. I know ArkenCiel is in the process of gathering replays, so I'm looking forward to seeing what he can come up with, but Bitana was the first person that I've seen post a replay suggesting Megagross is banworthy. I appreciate the way Bitana is going about this and I hope more people take that initiative, because replays are more likely to convince me than theorizing and calcs.

Speaking specifically about Bitana's replay, honestly I don't even think it's very convincing because he was able to overcome the bad matchup with smart plays and maybe a risk or two (risks are acceptable imo). In fact, just as Britana said in their own post, the Steel user could have won from turn 1 if they had just started with Kartana and clicked Leaf Blade. I'm far more concerned with Kartana right now than I am with Mega Metagross, and that's because it's way too easy to sweep with it once you get one KO. Metagross doesn't snowball and get progressively more difficult to deal with after every kill. Kartana does, and it can easily get out of control. -Tsunami-'s post a few posts above this one is a perfect example of this. I don't know if I agree that his set should be on every Steel team, but it's certainly effective and a very big threat to look out for. I've been using just a plain Scarf set and it's ridiculous how easily it can get out of hand.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-491032094 Steel vs Ground
I'd say my opponent's team in this replay is a fairly well built Ground team, but there was very little they could do once I brought in Kartana. It wiped out over half of their team before Kartana finally went down to an Espeed. Steel should not be able to sweep Ground this easily.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-491124574 Steel vs Steel
In this match Kartana had little issue sweeping the opponent once Skarmory was out of the way. I have to admit I got lucky that they kept Skarmory in on Magearna, but it allowed me to get another example of Kartana snowballing out of control.

tl,dr I have 2 main points:
1) If you want to convince me that something's broken, I'll be more easily convinced by replays than walls of text and calcs. I can't say the same for the rest of the council, but replays never hurt.
2) Kartana sets itself up far too easily and is impossible for some types to control once it gets a single KO. I'm leaning heavily in favor of banning Kartana at this point.

Regarding Zygarde-10%, the issue is not so much the pokemon, but the move Thousand Arrows. If Zydog is banned (and it's a strong if, as it may not get banned), i see the same arguments being made for Zygarde-50% using a set like rest/talk/coil/TA. Would the community rather see the move "Thousand Arrows" be banned? This appears to be the major offender, and would literally only affect Zygardes (it is locked, so Smeargle can't even get it). Zygarde 10 and 50% don't appear to be broken in the slightest without this move...

As I was typing my post I saw you post this so I'll respond here.

It's not even a debate that both Zygarde forms would be perfectly manageable without Thousand Arrows. The issue is that there is a precedent in smogon for something like this already: If a pokemon's signature move makes it broken or banworthy, the pokemon should be banned, not the move. This is the case even if the pokemon would be perfectly balanced without the move.

example of the precedent

I'm sure most of you aren't aware of this, but the PU metagame has Chatter on their banlist because it made Chatot too hax-reliant back when they were an OM. The only reason they were able to get away with this is because they were a tiny OM at the time and the upper staff didn't pay much attention to them. Upper staff have said a few times since then that they think Chatter should be unbanned and Chatot should be banned in order to be consistent with smogon's rules, but the Chatter ban remains in place because it has already been in place for quite a while and the upper staff don't feel like forcing them to change such a well-established ban.

You could make the argument that we're an OM so we could probably get away with it, but we're more than an OM. Our community is larger than some of the official smogon metagames. We're a pretty sizable portion of smogon as a whole, so I'd rather not use our OM status to get around smogon rules.

Now that I've said all that, I will admit that banning Thousand Arrows is more desirable than banning Zygarde. The council will talk it over and we might bring it up in policy review to see if it would be allowed. I just don't want anyone to get their hopes up.

tl,dr #2 Banning Thousand Arrows probably goes against smogon precedent. The council will discuss it, but don't get your hopes up.

Wow, that turned into a much longer post than I intended it to be...

 

[DoW]

There's been lot's of discussion and lots of calcs focusing on Mega Metagross lately. I don't know about the rest of the council, but I don't like calcs and discussion without seeing it in action. Personally, I prefer replays. They show you exactly what the pokemon can do in a real setting, which is what we should be judging pokemon based on. I know ArkenCiel is in the process of gathering replays, so I'm looking forward to seeing what he can come up with, but Bitana was the first person that I've seen post a replay suggesting Megagross is banworthy. I appreciate the way Bitana is going about this and I hope more people take that initiative, because replays are more likely to convince me than theorizing and calcs.

Speaking specifically about Bitana's replay, honestly I don't even think it's very convincing because he was able to overcome the bad matchup with smart plays and maybe a risk or two (risks are acceptable imo). In fact, just as Britana said in their own post, the Steel user could have won from turn 1 if they had just started with Kartana and clicked Leaf Blade. I'm far more concerned with Kartana right now than I am with Mega Metagross, and that's because it's way too easy to sweep with it once you get one KO. Metagross doesn't snowball and get progressively more difficult to deal with after every kill. Kartana does, and it can easily get out of control. -Tsunami-'s post a few posts above this one is a perfect example of this. I don't know if I agree that his set should be on every Steel team, but it's certainly effective and a very big threat to look out for. I've been using just a plain Scarf set and it's ridiculous how easily it can get out of hand.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-491032094 Steel vs Ground
I'd say my opponent's team in this replay is a fairly well built Ground team, but there was very little they could do once I brought in Kartana. It wiped out over half of their team before Kartana finally went down to an Espeed. Steel should not be able to sweep Ground this easily.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-491124574 Steel vs Steel
In this match Kartana had little issue sweeping the opponent once Skarmory was out of the way. I have to admit I got lucky that they kept Skarmory in on Magearna, but it allowed me to get another example of Kartana snowballing out of control.

tl,dr I have 2 main points:
1) If you want to convince me that something's broken, I'll be more easily convinced by replays than walls of text and calcs. I can't say the same for the rest of the council, but replays never hurt.
2) Kartana sets itself up far too easily and is impossible for some types to control once it gets a single KO. I'm leaning heavily in favor of banning Kartana at this point.


As I was typing my post I saw you post this so I'll respond here.

It's not even a debate that both Zygarde forms would be perfectly manageable without Thousand Arrows. The issue is that there is a precedent in smogon for something like this already: If a pokemon's signature move makes it broken or banworthy, the pokemon should be banned, not the move. This is the case even if the pokemon would be perfectly balanced without the move. I'm sure most of you aren't aware of this, but the PU metagame has Chatter on their banlist because it made Chatot too hax-reliant back when they were an OM. The only reason they were able to get away with this is because they were a tiny OM at the time and the upper staff didn't pay much attention to them. Upper staff have said a few times since then that they think Chatter should be unbanned and Chatot should be banned in order to be consistent with smogon's rules, but the Chatter ban remains in place because it has already been in place for quite a while and the upper staff don't feel like forcing them to change such a well-established ban.

You could make the argument that we're an OM so we could probably get away with it too, but we're more than an OM. Our community is larger than some of the official smogon metagames. We're a pretty sizable portion of smogon as a whole, so I'd rather not use our OM status to get around smogon rules.

Now that I've said all that, I will admit that a ban of Thousand Arrows would be the most desirable outcome and Zygarde is a somewhat unique case because it's kind of two separate pokemon in a sense. The council will talk it over and we might bring it up in policy review to see if it would be allowed. I just don't want anyone to get their hopes up.

tl,dr #2 Banning Thousand Arrows probably goes against smogon precedent. The council will discuss it, but don't get your hopes up.

Wow, that turned into a much longer post than I intended it to be...

Au contraire, I believe at one point UU banned Geomancy (its only user was smeargle).

Edit: to stop this post being a one-liner, I see absolutely no reason why a move shouldn't be banned, especially when two mons are broken with it and neither mon is broken without it. A move ban would in this case be a) simpler (less individual things banned), b) leave less things banned allowing for a wider metagame, and c) in this particular case it's obvious why thousand arrows is different for mono than for metas like OU, because in OU you can just run a mon that isn't hit S.E. by it... Compare that to banning zygarde-doge which is nowhere near as good in conventional tiers, it's more obvious why things are the way they are.

 

[ArkenCiel]

Oh, that's not what I meant, Eien. I didn't say Metagross-Mega slays the types after the first four I mentioned. I said "I'd like to mention Steel's inherently favorable match-ups which are just further exacerbated by Metagross-Mega: Ice, Rock, Poison, and Fairy." I didn't mean to make it sound like Metagross-Mega solos those types! Just that Metagross-Mega just makes those match ups harder. I also didn't say Metagross-Mega will destroy Grass, Bug, and Normal, but that Steel's match ups against those types are already skewed in Steel's favor WITHOUT Mega Metagross' help ("Not to mention the types Steel already has a good chance at beating without Metagross-Mega"). Essentially, I was trying to convince people that Steel's match up chart is way too good right now! To sum it up, my set is tailored specifically to deal with the types I mentioned, while indirectly making some match ups harder just with its mere presence, AND then there's the match ups that just favor Steel.

Sorry to everyone who might have misinterpreted my wording or jumped to their own conclusions without reading carefully. I never said Metagross-Mega slays all the types I mentioned.

I haven't gotten all the replays I wanted, but here are a few replays. More to come.

MegaGross replays

Vs Fairy - Was about to be counterswept by Z-Drum Azu. MegaGross tanks +6 BellyJet though.
Vs Ground - Ground struggles, finished off by MegaGross.
Vs Poison - MegaGross sweeps.
Vs Rock - There's a replay of this Rock team beating MegaGross up there/Grass Knot + BPunch was overkill.
Vs Fire - The immediate speed boost helps.
Vs Dragon - It's totally helpless.

I had some more with Fighting, but they weren't great builds. I can't seem to find any Flying teams on the ladder..

 

[Eien]

I personally don't like the idea of banning Thousand Arrows over banning Zygarde. Thousand Arrows itself isn't broken, its use on Zygarde is broken. As a result, I would prefer to ban Zygarde instead.

ArkenCiel After I refuted your Ground claim ("with something like Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot, Bullet Punch, and Ice Punch (which is what I use), you have the edge against... Ground (trust me, makes things way easier)"), I figured I should emphasize how ineffective it is in all of the matchups you mentioned because of how you already exaggerated its use.

Sadly, your new replays are just as deceptive as always and try to represent something they don't (reverse order because I usually look at things in reverse order lol):

analysis

Dragon: I'm quite unimpressed with defeating the powerful Flygon + Haxorus core. The guy literally Taunted your Mega Metagross when a Life Orb Dark Pulse is a guaranteed OHKO. You completely misrepresented what happened here. It isn't hopeless, in fact a good player would have completely taken out your Mega Metagross right then and there.

Fire: Nice win. This guy literally just sacked his Torkoal for free and could have definitely won otherwise. You won because of his misplay and not because of Mega Metagross, sorry.

Rock: Why would you post a replay where Mega Metagross did nothing of value for your team? Mega Scizor is just as usable in that slot, and even if you had neither, you would still be winning that matchup. This shows nothing.

Poison: Well played. Probably the only good replay in the list. I would note that you did crit the Muk and get a high roll on Mega Venusaur, and he didn't Defog with Crobat (You can't tell me he doesn't have defog on a Rocky Helmet Crobat). Nevertheless, Mega Metagross made the match much easier for you than any alternative would have, I'd concede that for sure.

Ground: Yeah. No Zygarde-10%, no Dugtrio. This doesn't show anything valuable. The opponent's team is literally ORAS and actually quite bad.

Fairy: Right. The classic Bulk Up Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, no Tapu Koko Fairy team. Furthermore, the guy literally sacked 3/6 of his mons to Magnezone before going to Azumarill?

I eagerly await actually valuable replays against actually viable teams.

 

[Wanka]

Au contraire, I believe at one point UU banned Geomancy (its only user was smeargle).

Edit: to stop this post being a one-liner, I see absolutely no reason why a move shouldn't be banned, especially when two mons are broken with it and neither mon is broken without it. A move ban would in this case be a) simpler (less individual things banned), b) leave less things banned allowing for a wider metagame, and c) in this particular case it's obvious why thousand arrows is different for mono than for metas like OU, because in OU you can just run a mon that isn't hit S.E. by it... Compare that to banning zygarde-doge which is nowhere near as good in conventional tiers, it's more obvious why things are the way they are.

Neither mon is broken without it, but they both become literal dogshit without it. If we don't ban it then ur third point would be true, not the other way around. Zygarde and zydog wouldn't be viable and in turn the meta would shrink, not widen. Acast hit the nail on the head with chatot in pu and that situation. There have been faint, but similar accusations about entei in UU. Not recently, but they have popped up before. The argument there was that entei was too good because sacred fire is a busted move, therefore, sacred fire should be banned. That is a terrible idea. Why should a move on a pokemon be banned, which in turn makes it terrible and in entei's case would have made it RU. There is no logic in doing that when you can just ban the poke. The mons would just become shite anyways. If they are too good with the ban, you ban the pokemon, not the move. The geomancy example is valid I guess? But honestly, it wasn't anything that BP clause wouldn't have patched down the road so it was kinda pointless and during a time period where UU was also a lot smaller and under a different system.

Oh, that's not what I meant, Eien. I didn't say Metagross-Mega slays the types after the first four I mentioned. I said "I'd like to mention Steel's inherently favorable match-ups which are just further exacerbated by Metagross-Mega: Ice, Rock, Poison, and Fairy." I didn't mean to make it sound like Metagross-Mega solos those types! Just that Metagross-Mega just makes those match ups harder. I also didn't say Metagross-Mega will destroy Grass, Bug, and Normal, but that Steel's match ups against those types are already skewed in Steel's favor WITHOUT Mega Metagross' help ("Not to mention the types Steel already has a good chance at beating without Metagross-Mega"). Essentially, I was trying to convince people that Steel's match up chart is way too good right now! To sum it up, my set is tailored specifically to deal with the types I mentioned, while indirectly making some match ups harder just with its mere presence, AND then there's the match ups that just favor Steel.

Sorry to everyone who might have misinterpreted my wording or jumped to their own conclusions without reading carefully. I never said Metagross-Mega slays all the types I mentioned.

I haven't gotten all the replays I wanted, but here are a few replays. More to come.

MegaGross replays

Vs Fairy - Was about to be counterswept by Z-Drum Azu. MegaGross tanks +6 BellyJet though.
Vs Ground - Ground struggles, finished off by MegaGross.
Vs Poison - MegaGross sweeps.
Vs Rock - There's a replay of this Rock team beating MegaGross up there/Grass Knot + BPunch was overkill.
Vs Fire - The immediate speed boost helps.
Vs Dragon - It's totally helpless.

I had some more with Fighting, but they weren't great builds. I can't seem to find any Flying teams on the ladder..

I'm ok with the poison replay kinda even though I think Endal semi choked end game but I don't really like the other ones tbh. Also, I think a general consensus could be reached right now that steel vs ground is in steels favor atm.

Ok you beat rock and fairy with steel, I don't really think it's overkill vs those matchups because it's already overkilled and the
idea of "this mon makes a matchup that already is bad for it worse" isn't something the council is or should be worried about according to the tiering philosophy so those replays are somewhat pointless.

Lol the dude choked in the fire matchup. He won the game by clicking blue flare and if he didn't have it then that's just no a good set.

That dragon team wasn't the sharpest and even yourself should be able to notice that man. How can you say it's inverted when he didn't even have zydog, which is dragons only way of wining that matchup. It would have gave you some trouble if he had it and made the game a lot more interesting.

 

[Bitana]

Just in case anyone had any doubts about how much Kartana fucks Rock... It doesn't matter if you run what little counterplay there IS to it! :D

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-492218502

And before anyone asks, yes, Terrakion was scarfed, NO, I didn't automatically lose the matchup anyway had Kartana not been there, as the team while weak to Steel has a lot of tech for it, between Tailwind + CB T-tar with Superpower + CB Fire fang + Brick Break Lycanrock.

And for the love of whatever you hold dear, if you tell me "the fact you managed to beat it means you checked it thus your point is disproven" I will personally find a way to hunt you down, because having to sack 3 mons just to get sand up AND get lycanrock in to beat Kartana is NOT checking it, it is simply delaying the inevitable.

(Inb4 "because Rock sucks even if we banned Kartana it's viability would not change thus we won't ban it despite the fact it also hurts Ground and Water, except for these exact builds that apparently everyone should be running otherwise they deserve to auto-lose :D.")

 

[ArkenCiel]

Hmm, yeah, I didn't explain those too well. My bad on that.

For Fairy, I just wanted to illustrate Mega Metagross' bulk for being able to tank +6 AJet. He was going to be swept either way by Magnezone @ Flash Cannon, but I just wanted to display how ridiculous Metagross-Mega's bulk was in active.
For Ground, I wanted to show MegaGross' coverage works well for it, but haven't ran into a team that has both on the ladder. I'll be looking Zydog + Dugtrio Ground replays.
For Rock, I think it's necessary to add the types it overkills anyway and MegaGross finished the rest of the team. We were discussing it in chat, and I was just being too safe, but Grass Knot + BPunch slaughtered the entire team to the point it was kind of unfair.
For Fire, merely wanted to know that MGross' speed comes in very handy. It provides the offensive presence without scarf to turn the tide. It needs Excadrill to fully abuse that match-up.
For Dragon, wanted to show that Ice Punch pretty much takes care of all the Dragons. Haven't seen a single Zydog Dragon too, but I'll come back when I get one too.

Don't take those as the pinnacle of the match-up! No, that's not the point I was getting at. I just wanted to illustrate more of Metagross' qualities because as I said in my post...

I haven't gotten all the replays I wanted, but here are a few replays. More to come.

I'm still looking for the really good ones, I was hoping to pique interest on Metagross-Mega, but it looks like it had the opposite effect lol. I should've done a more extensive explanation on why I shared those replays on the post instead of a few words.

EDIT: Here are some replays that I think showcase MegaGross' effect on the meta more.
Vs Fighting - Zen Headbutt spam.
Vs Dragon - Zydog included. Tanks Thousand Arrows and then kills.
Vs Ground - Has a Dugtrio + Zygarde. Dugtrio dies to BPunch after some hazards.
Vs Flying - MGross cleaning after tanking Lando's EQ. No other Pokemon on Steel would have been able to do it.

Feel free to invalidate these, and I'm taking suggestions for what kind of replays to aim for.

 

[DoW]

Neither mon is broken without it, but they both become literal dogshit without it. If we don't ban it then ur third point would be true, not the other way around. Zygarde and zydog wouldn't be viable and in turn the meta would shrink, not widen. Acast hit the nail on the head with chatot in pu and that situation. There have been faint, but similar accusations about entei in UU. Not recently, but they have popped up before. The argument there was that entei was too good because sacred fire is a busted move, therefore, sacred fire should be banned. That is a terrible idea. Why should a move on a pokemon be banned, which in turn makes it terrible and in entei's case would have made it RU. There is no logic in doing that when you can just ban the poke. The mons would just become shite anyways. If they are too good with the ban, you ban the pokemon, not the move. The geomancy example is valid I guess? But honestly, it wasn't anything that BP clause wouldn't have patched down the road so it was kinda pointless and during a time period where UU was also a lot smaller and under a different system.

Geo was simply a disproof of Acast's statement that Smogon has no precedent for banning moves or that it's somehow against Smogon's policy. The fact of the matter is that it's just generally not the better option.
I can't say I understand what you say about banning tarrows giving a smaller number of options rather than larger. From what I can see, assuming that both mons are considered broken with the move unbanned, that leaves two options: Option 1 is that both 10% and 50% are unbanned but tarrows is banned, in other words both mons are pretty terrible but can still be used (much like last gen when 50% was pretty bad but people like E-series1B had a certain amount of success with coil sets and similar), or both are banned and those mons can't be used. Sure, it's only a very small advantage to allow some pretty unviable sets to be used, but it still results in a wider metagame, if only slightly.

I think the strongest argument against a tarrows ban would probably be that "having a move (and only one move) banned makes the banlist more complicated", which I think is compensated for by a combination of the above point, the fact that it's one ban rather than two, and the fact that it's very obvious why tarrows is different in mono to other tiers (it would be far harder to explain banning tarrows in OU where every team can just run hippowdon or landot or something). While I'd certainly understand the council's decision if zydog were banned, I think a tarrows ban does make more sense.

It's worth noting that this entire chain of argument is based on the assumption that both 10% and 50% zygarde are broken with the move Thousand Arrows, which I'm not yet convinced is true.

Edit: I'd also like to draw a comparison with the Shadow Tag ban. While banning Wobbuffet and Gothitelle would also have worked perfectly well, a Shadow Tag ban not only removed two problems with a single ban, it also made it easier to see why those two mons couldn't be used.

 

[lskildum]

Just in case anyone had any doubts about how much Kartana fucks Rock... It doesn't matter if you run what little counterplay there IS to it! :D

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-492218502

And before anyone asks, yes, Terrakion was scarfed, NO, I didn't automatically lose the matchup anyway had Kartana not been there, as the team while weak to Steel has a lot of tech for it, between Tailwind + CB T-tar with Superpower + CB Fire fang + Brick Break Lycanrock.

And for the love of whatever you hold dear, if you tell me "the fact you managed to beat it means you checked it thus your point is disproven" I will personally find a way to hunt you down, because having to sack 3 mons just to get sand up AND get lycanrock in to beat Kartana is NOT checking it, it is simply delaying the inevitable.

(Inb4 "because Rock sucks even if we banned Kartana it's viability would not change thus we won't ban it despite the fact it also hurts Ground and Water, except for these exact builds that apparently everyone should be running otherwise they deserve to auto-lose :D.")

Kartana is not that bad. Ok, Rock may be screwed, but how did Fairy feel vs Scizor last gen. This didn't cause Scizor to be banned. Kartana has a 181 base Atk, but that is not as good as you would think. Many things can tank its various moves at +1 if it is scarfed. If it is Banded, then it has speed issues. Now, should an opponent let Kartana to get to +2, then it just makes the sweeping process a whole lot easier than it would have been with another Pokemon doing the same job. Same thing for Scizor. One Swords Dance, and then it pretty much killed all Fairy teams with its Stab Bullet Punch but we don't go crying that that is broken (Not to mention it got Koko and Fini in Gen 7 to resist it). Kartana is an excellent sweeper under scarf, but, as with most other sweepers, it can lack power (Yes, even at +1). Under Band, it is a fantastic wallbreaker, but it is outsped by common base 110 threats. I fail to see what is broken about this Pokemon. It isn't like Mega Metagross that can destroy any type it pretty much chooses to. Instead, its coverage is limited, with the highest BP being 90. All it is is a sweeper who, when allowed to set up, does his job really effectively. Nothing more.

 

[Wanka]

Geo was simply a disproof of Acast's statement that Smogon has no precedent for banning moves or that it's somehow against Smogon's policy. The fact of the matter is that it's just generally not the better option.
I can't say I understand what you say about banning tarrows giving a smaller number of options rather than larger. From what I can see, assuming that both mons are considered broken with the move unbanned, that leaves two options: Option 1 is that both 10% and 50% are unbanned but tarrows is banned, in other words both mons are pretty terrible but can still be used (much like last gen when 50% was pretty bad but people like E-series1B had a certain amount of success with coil sets and similar), or both are banned and those mons can't be used. Sure, it's only a very small advantage to allow some pretty unviable sets to be used, but it still results in a wider metagame, if only slightly.

I think the strongest argument against a tarrows ban would probably be that "having a move (and only one move) banned makes the banlist more complicated", which I think is compensated for by a combination of the above point, the fact that it's one ban rather than two, and the fact that it's very obvious why tarrows is different in mono to other tiers (it would be far harder to explain banning tarrows in OU where every team can just run hippowdon or landot or something). While I'd certainly understand the council's decision if zydog were banned, I think a tarrows ban does make more sense.

It's worth noting that this entire chain of argument is based on the assumption that both 10% and 50% zygarde are broken with the move Thousand Arrows, which I'm not yet convinced is true.

Edit: I'd also like to draw a comparison with the Shadow Tag ban. While banning Wobbuffet and Gothitelle would also have worked perfectly well, a Shadow Tag ban not only removed two problems with a single ban, it also made it easier to see why those two mons couldn't be used.

Smogon still does have a precedent for banning moves. There was a very controversial argument around banning dynamic punch in PU not too long ago. Lots of PU players and some PU staff wanted to just ban the part that made machoke broken so they could still use it without DP because it would have been a viable mon. Even in a case where the mon would have even been viable after the move ban, DP did not get banned and machoke was instead. Something else that helped that decision along was that there were other users of the move that weren't broken with it. I kinda see that with zydog. Zydog isn't even close to being broken by any stretch of the imagination, however, 50% might be. So instead of banning TA which would get rid of a broken mon and at the same time throw anothers viability out the window, we can just ban 50% and save 10%, which would be healthier for the meta. Idk about but you but I'd rather just have the one that's broken gone and keep the one that is actually a great addition to the meta, rather than keeping them both and making them complete shit and dead weight to the meta.

 

[DoW]

Smogon still does have a precedent for banning moves. There was a very controversial argument around banning dynamic punch in PU not too long ago. Lots of PU players and some PU staff wanted to just ban the part that made machoke broken so they could still use it without DP because it would have been a viable mon. Even in a case where the mon would have even been viable after the move ban, DP did not get banned and machoke was instead. Something else that helped that decision along was that there were other users of the move that weren't broken with it. I kinda see that with zydog. Zydog isn't even close to being broken by any stretch of the imagination, however, 50% might be. So instead of banning TA which would get rid of a broken mon and at the same time throw anothers viability out the window, we can just ban 50% and save 10%, which would be healthier for the meta. Idk about but you but I'd rather just have the one that's broken gone and keep the one that is actually a great addition to the meta, rather than keeping them both and making them complete shit and dead weight to the meta.

Yeah, like I'm saying banning tarrows is only a good idea if both zydog and 50% are broken with it. If zydog isn't broken with it, banning 50% is definitely the correct move.

 

[Wanka]

Yeah more so I wanted to get across that there still is a firm precedent against banning moves because there is and reasoning why it would go against smog philosophy.

 

[Kilgrave]

I'd like to talk about a couple of things.

First of all, I was stupid, and I did some testing and found out for myself how good Mega Zam really is. Trace is a blessing, especially with the prevalence of Ultra Beasts. Tracing a Beast Boost can mean an instant sweep of done at the right time. One case was when I switched my Mega Zam in on a Buzzwole, traced the Beast Boost and swept the rest of my opponent's team. Also, the ability to outspeed pretty much (if not all) the entire unboosted metagame is amazing and it aids its sweeping capabilities. I'm sorry. It was an uneducated post and I should've thought about it first.

But the real reason I'm here is to talk about Kartana. With the new mons Steel got to play, I thought it would be nice to use a type that I don't normally use. Magearna, Celesteela and Mega Metagross were all fun to mess around with, but the star of my team was Kartana, or more specifically, Choice Band Kartana.

I had tried this set when AG was the only SuMo metagame and my God did it destroy things. In Monotype it is no different. It's high speed and attack make it not only terrifying to face, but it can sweep a team unless it is dealt with fast. Its low base power movepool is slightly made up by its versatility. Leaf Blade and Smart Strike are required, but there's also Night Slash, Psycho Cut and Sacred Sword to add on. Pop a Choice Band on Kartana's ridiculous attack and you have something worth looking at.

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-492361007

As soon as Kartana starts using Sacred Sword against a Normal team and lives a Close Combat, you know the match is over.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-492400005

A match I should've lost, but it goes to show what Kartana can do.

+3 252 Atk Choice Band burned Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex 207-244 (68 - 80.2%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, the WoW miss did not matter.

I understand the council's decision to wait, but I think that a Pokemon that can so easily sweep a team like this deserves to have another look. But that's just my opinion, and I'm not usually right.

 

[Haaku.]

TL;DR: I like comparing things and a Pokemon like Kartana has been seen before in the metagame.

Kartana
59/181/131/59/31/109

Kyurem-Black
125/170/100/120/90/95

I remember many BW2 players being very afraid of Kyurem-Black in the metagame when the game dropped. It was never even supposed to leave Ubers, since it was a cover legendary. Furthermore, its White counterpart was/is chilling (nice pun?) in the Uber tier. I am seeing this exact same scenario with Kartana- sheer stat distribution makes this Pokemon seem more powerful than it really is, and people are getting the wrong idea.

Part of the scare with Kartana is its insanely high base 181 Attack. Part of the scare with Kyurem-Black was in its insanely high base 170 Attack. Now, these Pokemon obviously differ in many ways.

Kyurem-Black hits harder than Kartana by virtue of its 120 BP Outrage. Kyurem-Black also has a better offensive typing, significantly more bulk, significantly more Special Attack (can run mixed sets), and better coverage.

In return, Kartana has a better defensive typing, much higher Speed, Moxie, and Swords Dance. The main problem with both lies in the lack of a solid movepool.

There's no real point I'm trying to prove here- it's just worth considering how similar the initial impact of Kartana and Kyurem-B are, and how well we learned to adapt to one (Kyurem-Black) yet we are so quick to want to ban the other (Kartana).

I don't know if Kartana is broken or not. What I do know is that the best solution is to wait and make a decision after that. If the meta cannot adapt to Kartana like it did with Kyurem, I believe a ban is warranted. But as I said, only way of finding that out is waiting, since the meta literally just got its ladder a couple of days ago.

 

[Bitana]

I'd just like to note that Kartana doesn't have Moxie. With the proper stat distribution, it can boost it's Speed instead of Attack. Just so people don't get the wrong idea and think it's the same ability.

 

[iLlama]

TL;DR: I like comparing things and a Pokemon like Kartana has been seen before in the metagame.

Kartana
59/181/131/59/31/109

Kyurem-Black
125/170/100/120/90/95

I remember many BW2 players being very afraid of Kyurem-Black in the metagame when the game dropped. It was never even supposed to leave Ubers, since it was a cover legendary. Furthermore, its White counterpart was/is chilling (nice pun?) in the Uber tier. I am seeing this exact same scenario with Kartana- sheer stat distribution makes this Pokemon seem more powerful than it really is, and people are getting the wrong idea.

Part of the scare with Kartana is its insanely high base 181 Attack. Part of the scare with Kyurem-Black was in its insanely high base 170 Attack. Now, these Pokemon obviously differ in many ways.

Kyurem-Black hits harder than Kartana by virtue of its 120 BP Outrage. Kyurem-Black also has a better offensive typing, significantly more bulk, significantly more Special Attack (can run mixed sets), and better coverage.

In return, Kartana has a better defensive typing, much higher Speed, Moxie, and Swords Dance. The main problem with both lies in the lack of a solid movepool.

There's no real point I'm trying to prove here- it's just worth considering how similar the initial impact of Kartana and Kyurem-B are, and how well we learned to adapt to one (Kyurem-Black) yet we are so quick to want to ban the other (Kartana).

I don't know if Kartana is broken or not. What I do know is that the best solution is to wait and make a decision after that. If the meta cannot adapt to Kartana like it did with Kyurem, I believe a ban is warranted. But as I said, only way of finding that out is waiting, since the meta literally just got its ladder a couple of days ago.

I think your missing some key distinctions between these two Pokemon because you aren't really looking at what they do for their given types. Gonna use ORAS Kyu-B as reference since Ice and Dragon aren't exactly prominent thus far this gen. Kyurem-B gives Ice a Solid Physical or Mixed attacked with access to Earth Power, Fusion Bolt, and a 120 STAB option that immensely help that type. On Dragon it offers access to a Physical, Special, or Mixed Attacker as well as the option of Bulky Roost. It also helps Dragon to hold a rather large advantage over Flying (one of, if not the best type of ORAS) while being a godsend in ditto matchups, as well as Grass, and Ground, which can be a pretty annoying matchup without. And, unlike its counterpart, Kyurem-W, it doesn't have the ability to completely dismantle weakness matchups, i.e. Ice v. Steel and Dragon v. Steel or Dragon v. Ice matchups. For Kyurem-B, it was not that difficult to find ways to counteract its noticeably ridiculous offensive potential because its moveset has good coverage, yes, but it is by no means diverse. Once you can decipher what item and stat spread a kyu-b is you can pretty easily predict the rest of its moves. Most of the time you can pretty much do this at Turn 0 just by judging the opponent's team comp, unless they're just running a team of off-sets. Kyu-B does get Hone Claws, but being realistic, there's pretty much no reason to run it since nothing beyond like Focus Blast needs boosted accuracy and because it'd be better to just have more coverage or to fully utilize your spread. Kyu-B also has Teravolt so it serves a bit of a different roll than Kartana, who is basically a Set-Up sweeper either directly through SD or indirectly through Beast Boost.

Now, with Kartana, how it functions is a bit different from Kyu-B. Looking at its two types, Grass and Steel, what exactly does it have to offer? Grass now has an incredibly fast, physical threat that gives the type a great option for managing both Ice and Poison. Thus far, it seems to be used as a cleaner for some of ORAS Balance Grass's big threats as well as the key to giving Grass the opportunity of having use as an HO build. On Steel, however, it greatly tips the scales in matchups that should be either neutral or disadvantaged for the type. For example, in the Steel v. Water matchup, assuming the Kartana set is scarf, there are not that many switchins to handling it's outrageous damage output besides heavily invested Toxapex and Sap Sipper Azumarill. Pelipper would be a check, if it weren't 2HKO'd after Rocks, and if you were completely invested in Physical Def. Plus, if you dont' run Sap Sipper Azu or can't outspeed and kill scarf Kartana at +1, you just lose. Unless you get a burn on your only Scald chance before getting 2HKO'd, but here's too Scald Burn luck, right? Moving on to Ground. Honestly, the discussion about how Kartana matches up against Ground kind of reminds me of the perspective of people with regards to Mega Sableye in its first suspect test. A lot of the arguments against Kartana jsut flat out decimating Ground teams is that you can run extremely limiting and specific sets on your Pokemon to beat it. That's like arguing how because Mega Ampharos has Mold Breaker + Toxic and you can run Guts Band Luxray, that Electric can at least manage Mega Sableye. Tankchomp, Bulky Landorus, and Gliscor can take two scarf leaf blades but you need to realize, Gliscor is the only one of those Pokemon that has recovery beyond leftovers and no sane person is going to just leave in their Kartana against these Pokemon unless they have the potential to 2HKO. Also, Leaf Blade is in fact high crit chance (please don't start the 12.5%, 25%, 30% bs), so your designated check to Scarf Kartana isn't even guaranteed. And yes, scarf Zydog can outspeed and kill Kartana, but honestly, running scarf over band is a terrible choice and if that isn't the description of something being over-centralizing, then I must need to rethink these matchups. Fire Kartana doesn't really do anything since it has no supereffective coverage, but its speed tier and damage can be annoying for the type to handle. Scarf Kartana outspeeds everything on fighting bar hawlucha and it has good physical bulk, so good luck getting those mach punch KOs. In Steel advantaged matchups, scarf Kartana pretty just decimates the opposing teams bar like Avalugg, Magearna, and Klefki. Obviously Band and LO sets kind of run through these matchups, and shake's Steelium Z spread pretty much 6-0s. Also, Kartana's movepool has everything that it needs to support its types, so the fact that it's limited doesn't really make a difference.

 

[Acast]

People on this thread seem to understand where I'm coming from with Kartana, but being on the Monotype room was genuinely infuriating. So, I am posting yet again to clear up some misconceptions about my favourite Ultra Beast and show the Monotype community how truly great it is.

A questionnaire in the Monotype room:

How do you feel about Kartana in Monotype?

1. It's bad. I don't understand why people use it. (46 votes)

/\ What? If 46 people really think this, I'm gonna have to show them what Kartana really is.

A lot of complaining

Kartana is far slower, and it has a quad weakness. The health is just barely better, so any viable poke with a fire move can take it down in seconds.

The Pokemon that Kartana is being compared to here is Deoxys. Yes, it is slower, but base 109 shouldn't under be underestimated. The HP stat of Kartana is not its problem, it's its Special Defense. And I'm not even joking, but the only Fire mon naturally faster than Kartana is Mega Houndoom, which is currently unavaliable. Of course, there's scarfers, such as Victini, and I've been lucky not to run into one yet, but this person is right in saying pretty much any Fire attack will kill it. Lastly, this person should be reminded that the 'quad weakness' is Kartana's only weakness, and if it always dies from it then its not really a big deal.

That being said, with an easy counter ever-present, Beast-Boost shouldn't matter.

What? Now you tell me where that Water team from one of my replays from before (here) had a counter, which basically, from this person's perspective, is a Fire type. Also, Beast Boost doesn't matter? In the replay from before, I wouldn't have won without Beast Boost, as I wouldn't have been able to kill the Toxapex.

Another person said:

with its bad special defense anything can kill it pretty much

Then I plucked up the courage to make my first ever post in the monotype room:

TOAOKilgrave: base 131 defense says hi

To which they said:
base 31 special defense says hi a lot louder though.

That's not the point! Not everything can kill it. I'll keep referring to my replay from before, a Liquidation from a Toxapex did all of 11% (although Toxapex offenses are awful), while a Staraptor's Close Combat failed to kill it.

And then last, and definitely least, this same person said:

people make it sound like kartana is guaranteed to get a kill and sweep whenever it enters the field but it doesn't have the movepool to make that happen.

*facepalm

I'M DONE. *drops mic

Just please understand, Kartana is not bad, the council voted on it for a reason, please do your research first, and come back when you've actually seen it in battle (cue flashbacks to my post on Mega Zam).

There's a severe lack of context in your post, which I am here to provide.

I'd be willing to bet most of the people that voted for option 1 in that poll are just trolling because they don't care to take it seriously. The vast majority of people realize it's at least worth using, as evidenced by that poll. Anyone bringing up Kartana's weak points is more than likely just saying it's not banworthy, which I can understand because it's a fairly controversial pokemon. No one worth your time is going to honestly say Kartana is bad and should not be used.

 

[Shadestep]

Why are you even using Room Polls as an argument? They're subjective as hell, People don't think about what they click, and the biggest nonsense-users can vote for them. They're not a good way to show what 'the community thinks', and neither is it a valid or convincing argument, at all. I don't think many people will be convinced by any of your arguments, they'd rather read a convincing post with actual content, telling people why they think the Pokemon discussed at that time is overcentralizing, unhealthy, or just flat out broken. Showing calcs and/or replays also helps, but not a Room Poll, lol. You should know better @_@