Not the greatest it's ever been, it's a decent rocker or scarfer, though.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread (read the op before posting a thread)
- Thread starter Celticpride
- Start date
Muscle K
Banned deucer.
Garchomp is in a tough spot in the current meta. It's just not able to preform as well in the shifting meta, as i'll explain below.
I have to disagree with this - As a scarfer It's pertty much deadweight versus most balance and as an offensive rocker, it lacks the coverage to break through its traditional checks. It's pretty much outclassed by Lando in every aspect - Lando breaks bulkier teams, provides better defensive utility, has a more potent z move in SSSS, has uturn momentum and as a scarfer, isn't deadweight vs bulkier teams due to said momentum support.
Dead. All i've seen thus far is Annakartana stall w/ Gliscor and one other variation w/ Quag.
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
Just posting here instead of VR thread so it won't be a one-liner there.
Why was Toxapex promoted to S? I understand it has near invaluable niche for checking threats like Mega Charizard Y, Keldeo, and Greninja but as common as aforementioned threats are, Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele are just everywhere and many sweepers have dedicated ways to deal with them, and I could see that from many would-be-walled-threats, such as Kartana's SubDD set which has recently been uploaded.
Why was Toxapex promoted to S? I understand it has near invaluable niche for checking threats like Mega Charizard Y, Keldeo, and Greninja but as common as aforementioned threats are, Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele are just everywhere and many sweepers have dedicated ways to deal with them, and I could see that from many would-be-walled-threats, such as Kartana's SubDD set which has recently been uploaded.
I will admit I was confused by this at first to, but how Gary explains it is that toxapex is litterally the only reason why balance is a viable play style, as toxapex can keep potential balance breakers in check. Toxapex is also the reason why every team has to have a way to remove toxic spikes in order to not auto lose to a skilled user of toxapex. Toxapex also walls like more than half of the tier, and with its immunities to poison, insane bulk, and regenerator, it is the hardest Pokémon to KO isn’t he tier.
Returning player from ORAS times with my most successful team being a semi-stall with a Chesnaught/Defensive CharX/Tentacruel core.
Basically now I want to get back into laddering and would prefer if I can continue to play with this core or with some minor changes. What are some of the meta threats that I would have to look out for with this?
Basically now I want to get back into laddering and would prefer if I can continue to play with this core or with some minor changes. What are some of the meta threats that I would have to look out for with this?
Well, they were not the most viable in ORAS either, but somehow they welded together into a really good defensive core for me so I thought maybe I can get them to work. I'm okay with forsaking Tentacruel but I realised that a lot of stuff that Chesnaught used to check in ORAS better than Ferro are still ranked pretty high in the VR (Lopp, TTar, Lando, Keld etc) so I'm thinking of keeping that. (My team's Steel type back in ORAS was Zong for a long time which eventually changed to Rachi in its final iteration) Also, if dropping Tenta though, it means I would have to get a spinner for def ZardX, so that's another thing I would need advice on.
From what I gathered from VR ranking, am I right to assume the meta seems to circle around Fairy/Elec/Steel/Fire currently, and what are the biggest threats to semi-stall now?
Last edited:
Mega Venusaur question: I'm running the standard defensive set but opting to go with Earthquake because reasons, and I've gone with Sassy nature to maximise the damage output as is recommended (which lowers speed). Smogon recommends 16 Speed EVs with Calm nature to outspeed neutral base speed 50 Pokemon like Mega Mawile, but it doesn't suggest an EV spread for the Sassy nature option (Calm set is 248 HP / 88 Def / 156 SpD / 16 Spe). Do I just give up on outspeeding Mega Mawile and instead dump the remaining EVs in Defense and not invest in Speed at all? Or is there a better idea?
Honestly, I think a lot of those threats you mentioned are just there because I just mentioned a core in a stall team, and that's just how stall always worked imo - take out any member and suddenly a lot of threats seem to dismantle it, and yet can seem frustratingly difficult to take apart if the entire team is viewed as a whole. The reason why I have always enjoyed semi-stall is because of the feeling of satisfaction when you take 2+ mediocre mons and suddenly they complement each other perfectly to cover a lot of threats. And subsequently take a team of 6 mediocre mons together and they suddenly seem impermeable.
Actually I think I phrased my original question wrongly, what I really wanted to know is what are the biggest new threats to stall this gen that were not present last gen. Tran, Diancie, Latios, Cham, Pinsir were stuff that I have been facing last gen, and have been covered pretty well with the rest of the team actually, imo. Lele, Koko + KyuB and Flyium LandoT seems to be the new challenges for my team to tackle. I think at the end of the day, I should just take my prev team and just try to ladder and adapt.
Thanks for the responses anyway. I don't think I need more help on this anymore, I can probably learn on the move anyway.
Good on you for trying to make uncommon mons work - I always enjoy seeing people do that even if it’s considered ill advised. Some new stall threats you didn’t mention are mega mawile, hoopa unbound, and alola marowak. Stall is in kind of a tough spot right now so good luck!
Yes if running Sassy the extra 16 Speed can just be dumped into Def or SpD, considering it would need way more to outspeed Mega Mawile and it isn't worth giving up bulk for it.
Last edited:
Landorus T test confirmed?
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
While I personally believe it should be banned from current metagame due to the role compression it offers and the number of walls it can break with Z-moves and boosts, I am not entirely sure about OU council's stance at this point.
Its quite unlikely that landorus-t will be tested. Its far too late in the metagame for that, and while it is a really good all around pokemon, none of its aspects are necessarily broken or “op”.
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
I disagree.
As a user who only lurks around OU forums and plays the metagame in mid / low ladder even I could clearly tell how many roles can Landorus-T can fulfill.
Offensively, as Gary mentioned couple pages ago when answering my question, it is theoretically impossible to wall it due to its attack stat letting it to easily lure and remove relevant Unaware user with two hits, and it is difficult to tell what Z-crystal it is holding in the first place. Smack Down / Gravity immediately threatens would-be-checks namely Skarmory and Celesteela, and this is not to mention Landorus-T can also be a late game cleaner with double dance set which can pick off most relevant weakened targets.
Defensively, Landorus-T is one of the very few walls that have access to hazard move / pivoting move / and some offensive presence and it is one of the very few Mega Charizard X checks OU has to offer, at least how my experience goes. It also has two useful immunities in Electric and Ground, meaning simply by existing in team preview, it sometimes causes opponents to overpredict and in this aspect it outclasses similar walls like Garchomp or most Ground-types. The only theoretical weakness in Ice can be mediated by 5 of its teammates and getting worn down isn't the right reason to say Landorus-T is not a good wall because it can do so much before it outlives its usefulness.
That said, since I don't want this to be only a quoting post, would someone mind explaining what OU council thinks about Landorus-T? I am genuinely curious.
While I respect, enjoy and encourage the civil discussion on the matter and the metagame in general, I can say that the OU Council is not planning to suspect Landorus-T at any point in the near future and we also have no plans to touch the tier before USM comes out in a week and a half.
The council, among others, have stated time after time why Landorus-T is not getting suspected and why it isn't broken. There is a big difference between what deems a pokemon broken and a versatile monster being able to achieve many rolls effectively.
Everyone already knows that Lando is capable of running a multitude of sets, especially with Z Crystals this generation: Defensive w/ Lefties/Helmet, Offensive with 3 different crystals or SubSD, Rocks SD, DD, etc. However, each of these sets have a flaw which contain Lando from being inherently "broken". Its fantastic ability in Intimidate alongside good defensive typing and movepool boosts its defensive utility. However,
1) Defensive Lando only has Leftovers as recovery, meaning it's not hard to be worn down, especially being the primary answer to physical attackers
2) It is still weak to Ice, which a lot of pokemon can easily adapt to and run HP Ice / Ice Beam if necessary (Koko, Mage, so on) as well as other common types like water
3) SM brought along a crazy power creep which means that Lando isn't tanking every move as easily as it wants to
Offensive Lando is virtually impossible to wall, but it isn't hard to revenge either. Its poor base speed stat means that it will get forced out rather easily by the likes of Greninja, Lele, Medicham, Latios, Diancie, Kyu-B, Keldeo, Lop, so on and so forth. Offensive Lando is not an impossible mon to revenge kill at all, even if it can threaten almost everything out offensively.
Every tier is going to have a best pokemon, and Lando-T is a good one at that. It effectively holds the tier in place and prevents it from going complete bonkers. I don't know why talks about banning it consistently come up in these threads, as they're always answered by the same response and PM'ing someone on the council will probably provide a better answer.
e: oops sry finch, on mobile so didn't see that
Last edited:
Haven't been playing since XY OU.
Wondering what has changed for Rain teams aside from Pelipper and Swampert.
Why are suicide leads like Uxie and Azelf not common for Rain (specifically) anymore?
What happened to Rain staples like Kabutops, Thund-I, Torn-T; and situationals like Jirachi and Manaphy
Wondering what has changed for Rain teams aside from Pelipper and Swampert.
Why are suicide leads like Uxie and Azelf not common for Rain (specifically) anymore?
What happened to Rain staples like Kabutops, Thund-I, Torn-T; and situationals like Jirachi and Manaphy
Another important thing that the people above me didn't point out is the addition of Z-Moves. This makes for example Chesnaught a very unreliable mon to wall Lando because of its Flynium-Z set.
Well you should 100% drop Tentacruel for Toxapex which has way better stats, a better ability and reliable recovery. Chestnaught(y) is also not good (Lando-T beats it with Flynium-Z, Keldeo can burn and gets walled by Pex, M-Lopunny can beat it with prior damage due to running Power-Up Punch and gets also walled by Pex anyways). Spikes and SR are also everywhere so i honestly don't see defensive Zard-X doing anything (if ur lucky Tentoxa might get one kill b4 dying lol), so it doesn't really check anything reliable. This brings me back to Chesnaught because any good Grass Type should check Koko so you should probably add (Tangrowth) or Mega-Venu instead. Then add Zapdos (for Kartana, SSSS Landorus-T, Garchomp, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Tapu Bulu, Celesteela etc) or Mew (mainly Mega Medicham) for Defog and you already got way more Mons checked then with the Mons before. For steel types you should probably go with Celesteela and then something else to check Band Ttar, Zygarde, (Clefable) and also Specs Gengar, Hoopa-U, Kyurem-B (AV Magearna to some extent) etc.
I hope i could help u a bit but maybe you should try balance or bulky offense because there are just soo much threats running around which are increadible hard to prep for.
Most rain teams are less Hyper Offense and more geared around bulky offense, allowing them to fit stuff like Ferrothorn for opposing Ash Gren and Spikes. Mega Swampert is often used as the Rocker, so you don't have to fit rocks on something else and can run Spikes on Ferro. Kabutops is still used sometimes albeit niche, because Mega Swampert and Kingdra are just such good swimmers there are little reasons to stray from them. Ash Greninja is also a common staple on rain because of its strong Hydros and Shuriken can sweep late game with rain up due to its massive power increase. Pairs well with Swampert as they can both break down each others checks/counters. Hawlucha is also seen quite commonly on rain builds because it can set up on stuff like Ferrothorn and Tangrowth which normally counter rain. Koko is far better on Rain than Thundy-I unless you are using like rain HO and want to use Rain Dance on it or something, and hell even Zapdos gives it competition. Torn-T is okay but as a strong nuke on rain it faces competition from Specs Pelipper.
Things rise to OU based on usage, you can’t “suspect” something to have it be added to the tier. However, mons in lower tiers can still be ranked in OU (ex: Gastrodon, which is PU by usage but B-rank on OU’s VR). If you think something should be ranked you can nominate it in the VR thread but you’ll most likely need replays to back up your argument that are either from high-level ladder matches or tournament play.
To properly begin a suspect test (on Landorus-T I'm assuming), you need to provide proper reasoning that can handle opposing viewpoints, as well as have sufficient demand from OU in general.
Advocates for Landorus-T's suspect have neither. Their reasoning hasn't been convincing enough to the OU council to warrant a suspect, and many OU players disagree with a Landorus-T suspect test as well (which will work against the demand requirement); most importantly, many OU council members also disagree with having a suspect, and they must be convinced if the pro-suspect side wants to succeed. If the pro-suspect are serious about getting a suspect, their reasoning must be more rich – so far their only argument is "Landog is too cheap (cheap being yielding high payoff with little cost), as well as too stronk."
The reason this evidence isn't enough to stand by itself is because people haven't really been talking about how this negatively affects the metagame. It is very true that Landog can check a million Pokémon and smash a million more. But as long as the meta stays reasonably competitive, who cares? The only time people should care is when the meta starts becoming "unhealthy" (as was the case for the Dugtrio, Phero, and Metagross suspects). Anti-suspect advocates can't see why Landog's attributes are extremely harmful for the metagame, and it's the pro-suspect side's responsibility to explain this – to explain how the meta has become "unhealthy" under Landog's influence.
p_pumpe_94
Banned deucer.
What are the most common Balance cores atm? I read in the new core thread that the old one is outdated, so i though i'd ask here :o
I guess Toxapex+Celesteela and Celesteela+M-Venu are 2, but are there any others?
I guess Toxapex+Celesteela and Celesteela+M-Venu are 2, but are there any others?
Could either Pheromosa or Mega Lucario come down to OU in UsUm?
Muscle K
Banned deucer.
I'm not an ou mod, nor am I a member of the ou council, but i'm pretty sure I speak for all of us when I say never.
Lucario is literally unwallable, is in a good speed tier, singlehandedly invalidates stall and most variations of offence and is getting a reliable steel stab move new game. So no, it'll never be free.
As for pheromosa, nothing in the metagame has really changed since its suspect and it'll have the same effect as lucario - ie invalidating the majority of playstyles