Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Albacore]

Personally I find Hoopa-U to be significantly better than Kyu-B for multiple reasons. For one, it's even harder to wall. Kyu-B has no counters but even it suffers from some minor 4MSS, it can't really cover everything in OU in 4 slots. Hoopa-U, on the other hand, only needs 3 moveslots (dual STABs + Fighting move) to attain perfect coverage and basically hit the entire tier neutrally, leaving the last slot for coverage to guarantee an OHKO on a couple things which can't switch into you anyway (Gunk Shot / Fire Punch / Ice Punch), hit a relatively uncommon Pokemon (Fire Punch for Klefki, Ice Punch or TBolt for Mandibuzz), or even Sub to block status, Sucker Punch and scout, or NP to completely dismantle balance and stall.

Speaking of which, access to a good boosting move is another huge advantage Hoopa-U has over Kyu-B since it lets it completely tear through slower teams with far less effort than Kyu-B ever needs. Then there's the fact that Hoopa-U's STABs are more powerful on both sides (unless you count Outrage which leaves Kyu-B very prone to being revenged) : Hyperspace Fury is a lot more powerful than Dragon Claw, and Hoopa-U's much higher SpA stat makes Psychic and Dark Pulse from it a lot stronger than Kyu-B's Ice Beam.

From experience, Hoopa-U is a lot more splashable too, partly because it isn't weak to Stealth Rocks and does not require hazard removal, partly because Hoopa-U tends to have better synergy with common Pokemon. Good Dark-types are pretty uncommon as well so Hoopa-U is quite valuable in that role (Good Ice-types are also kinda uncommon but they provide diddly squat defensively).

Hoopa-U is imo superior to Kyu-B, and at least on par with Manaphy which, while better defensively, lacks immediate power and can't cover the entire tier in one moveset (a bit like Kyu-B, though it suffers from this to a greater extent than Kyu-B does). I think I might lean more towards S rank given how easily Hoopa-U crushes common builds, how versatile it is, and how influential it is on the metagame, but it's still pretty inconsistent when compared to everything else in S and the metagame is super overprepared for it atm so A+ is probably more appropriate, but we'll see how it settles down.


Hoopa-C's placement in B- is perfect btw, it has enough advantages over Hoopa-U to be ranked (has a far better main STAB, able to run a sub NP set, spinblocks, actually 1v1s Specs Keldeo), but realistically Hoopa-U's going to be the better pick almost all of the time.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Hoopa-U is a good A+ 'mon but i do agree it is far better in theory than in practice. It's easily revenge killed (hspace fury makes it even easier), has a questionable defensive typing that provides it no resistances, loathes VoltTurn and it has a hard time switching in (unlike cube and mana which have actual resistances and cube even has reliable recovery).

But holy shit does it hit hard. It will likely kill 2+ pokemon against balance and stall due to its godly offensive stats and colorful movepool. It can run a lot of sets, be it physical, Sub+3 attacks, NP, Scarf or subNP.

 

[ClockworkLad]

Hoopa-U isn't necessarily S material, yet at least. We still need time to see what works and what doesn't. With what we have now, that bug weakness and the fact Clefable counters it really hampers Hoopa-U's potential. But holy shit it breaks balance as well as Gengar. I'm finding Mixed Hoopa to be nice.

Thoughts on Knock Off over HF? After HF you're almost forced to switch afterwards, but with HF you have more power against megas.

 

[viol and bass]

Hoopa-U isn't necessarily S material, yet at least. We still need time to see what works and what doesn't. With what we have now, that bug weakness and the fact Clefable counters it really hampers Hoopa-U's potential. But holy shit it breaks balance as well as Gengar. I'm finding Mixed Hoopa to be nice.

Thoughts on Knock Off over HF? After HF you're almost forced to switch afterwards, but with HF you have more power against megas.

Clefable definitely doesn't counter it. Gunk Shot is the most common non-STAB move people have been running, from what I've seen, and Clefable can't even sort of switch into it.

 

[Machi]

Hoopa-U isn't necessarily S material, yet at least. We still need time to see what works and what doesn't. With what we have now, that bug weakness and the fact Clefable counters it really hampers Hoopa-U's potential. But holy shit it breaks balance as well as Gengar. I'm finding Mixed Hoopa to be nice.

Thoughts on Knock Off over HF? After HF you're almost forced to switch afterwards, but with HF you have more power against megas.

Counters? How can Clefable counter Hoopa-U when either set, physical/mixed/special, more or less bypass Clefable with either Gunk shot or Psyshock? Gunk shot is generally EVd to outright kill Clef whereas LO Psyshock 2HKOs more or less, and flat out kills with NP.

 

[ClockworkLad]

Counters? How can Clefable counter Hoopa-U when either set, physical/mixed/special, more or less bypass Clefable with either Gunk shot or Psyshock?

Clefable definitely doesn't counter it. Gunk Shot is the most common non-STAB move people have been running, from what I've seen, and Clefable can't even sort of switch into it.

Ay, Gunk Shot wasn't the first thing on my mind. Sorry.

Actually, Hoopa-U counters Clefable more-or-less. Gunk Shot does have a decent chance of missing and Moonblast can screw you over 30 ways to Sunday, but it's not anything gratifyingly dangerous.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Notably, Hoopa-U can 2HKO the entier metagame with one set.

Modest NP with duel stbs and focus blast has zero counters, meaning it leaves stall completely useless. Your opponent gets of an NP and it's basically over, what on stall can OHKO this thing? Except x-scizzor AV drapion

Assault vest is a very effective versus balance and it can switch into to many special attackers with ease, an offensive check to Latios bar Mega Metagross is great.

Choice scarf works wonders versus stall. It's coverage moves gives it amazing super effective coverage making revenge killing rather easy

 

[Analytic]

= A+

Hoopa-U is an absolute gem. Its monstrous offensive stats, coupled with its amazing movepool, make it really hard to switch in to. Its movepool consists of the likes of Focus Blast, Hyperspace Fury, Fire Punch, Psyshock, Gunk Shot, Knock Off, and utility moves in Taunt and Calm Mind, make it really hard to figure out what set it is running and what pokemon can come in on it safely.

It excels against bulkier teams, I feel like this is the final nail in the coffin for Balance and Stall, with Taunt+3 Attacks w/ LO. Balance teams have no answer to this quite often and it ends up getting at least 2 kills, in my experience, per game. It threatens bulkier teams more than Manaphy, simply because of the fact that you have absolutely no idea what set it is running.

HO teams do fear Hoopa-U, arguably less than balance and stall, to a certain extent. I feel like this pokemon can be pretty much compared to any wall-breaker in the tier although I do feel that it is arguably better than most of them, possibly even the best.

For these reasons, I support Hoopa-U to A+

 

[Shruggy]

Notably, Hoopa-U can 2HKO the entier metagame with one set.

Modest NP with duel stbs and focus blast has zero counters, meaning it leaves stall completely useless. Your opponent gets of an NP and it's basically over, what on stall can OHKO this thing? Except x-scizzor AV drapion

Assault vest is a very effective versus balance and it can switch into to many special attackers with ease, an offensive check to Latios bar Mega Metagross is great.

Choice scarf works wonders versus stall. It's coverage moves gives it amazing super effective coverage making revenge killing rather easy

Stall has a few options for Hoopa-U but really they are mostly pretty niche. SpD drapion does work probably the best out of everything that i've found as it only has 10% chance of getting 2hko by focus blast when vs physical sets and chansey can wall special sets baring knock off, its basically a case of scouting out moves and physical/special but problem is by the time you've done that half your team is dead lol.

Goth with foul play is a decent revenge killer provided a small amount of prior damage:

0 Atk Gothitelle Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 183-216 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But really this thing is the icing on the cake it feels, ANOTHER stallbreaker as if people were short on choice before lol. A Great mon overall and its variety in sets and items means it can definetly find a spot on most teams in this meta and really its not hard to find a couple of switch ins per game either to revenge kill or via volt-turn. Great mon and should be interesting to see how the meta develops and what becomes its 'standard' set.

 

[WhiteQueen]

From the games that I have played so far, I conclude that Hoopa is deadweight against fast and offensive teams unless it equips a Choicescarf. With that said, Hoopa is an absolute terror against stall, balanced, and slow teams in general. So if you're using a fat team, pray to the lords you don't run into a Hoopa because you will get fucked. It's much harder to play around than say, Clefable or Mega Metagross. There's no reason why it shouldn't be S or at least A+ for now.

 

[Machi]

chansey can wall special sets baring knock off, its basically a case of scouting out moves and physical/special but problem is by the time you've done that half your team is dead lol.

Not even...
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 274-325 (42.6 - 50.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If it gets a NP in:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 551-649 (85.8 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Its still difficult to wall regardless of whether physical or special since it can very easily 2HKO Chansey, and if it nabs a boost in the process it'll only make matters worse, since it can still hit on both sides of the spectrum thanks to Psyshock. So special sets aren't any easier to work around, and can easily snow ball as it isn't very difficult to nab a boost. While most unaware mons find themselves also 2HKO with either Psyshock/Gunkshot or Darkpulse.

The closest you can get to "walling" Hoopa-U with the existing viability list is Mandibuzz assuming it doesn't get hit with the appropriate coverage in Thunderbolt of course, again calcs really aren't very much in Mandibuzz's favor. That said I think it has been established already to be the boon of slower and defensive teams since it isn't exactly something that can be walled. Unless you start slapping things like AV Drapion or Skutank.

 

[teamsnickers]

While hoopa u is not on par with kyurem b, its also IMO worse and not as well rounded as manaphy. Manaphy has FAR better typing,synergy,bulk and also has great coverage like hoopa u... While manaphy is not as powerful as hoopa u it is far more useful against OFFENSE and doesn't get forced out by even close to the amount of mons as hoopa u does. I honestly dont know how you can justify manaphy and hoopa u being in the same rank as manaphy is the far better wallbreaker and can be used against ALL types of teams at least semi effectively.... My replay that I posted a page back where hoopa u was absolute useless against my ho team, was a scenario that you will NEVER see with manaphy....To whitequeens point fat teams and stall were never really good in this meta anyway with all the wallbreakers around..... In the current OFFENSIVE meta I just dont see how hoopa u can be A+ and on the same rank as something like manaphy....

 

[GlassVeins]

While hoopa u is not on par with kyurem b, its also IMO worse and not as well rounded as manaphy. Manaphy has FAR better typing,synergy,bulk and also has great coverage like hoopa u... While manaphy is not as powerful as hoopa u it is far more useful against OFFENSE and doesn't get forced out by even close to the amount of mons as hoopa u does. I honestly dont know how you can justify manaphy and hoopa u being in the same rank as manaphy is the far better wallbreaker and can be used against ALL types of teams at least semi effectively.... My replay that I posted a page back where hoopa u was absolute useless against my ho team, was a scenario that you will NEVER see with manaphy....To whitequeens point fat teams and stall were never really good in this meta anyway with all the wallbreakers around..... In the current OFFENSIVE meta I just dont see how hoopa u can be A+ and on the same rank as something like manaphy....

I'd like to point out that it doesn't have to set up, unlike Manaphy. It also has far better coverage, and the right sets can be troublesome to HO, namely scarf and sub.

 

[Kutscher]

the biggest problem about hoopa-u, is that nothing can easly switch to it, his coverage is awesome, and he can 2KO or KO the entire tier(LO), he is very unpredictable too first, you don't know what set is, second you don't know the moves and ev's spread he is using, so deal with it is very hard, i think S or A+(LO set can take entire stall teams very easy). about Hoopa-c: he is a nice spinkblock and the subnp or subcm is nice too since he got perfect goverage using stab shadow ball and focus blast, i think something around b- or c+

 

[teamsnickers]

I'd like to point out that it doesn't have to set up, unlike Manaphy. It also has far better coverage, and the right sets can be troublesome to HO, namely scarf and sub.

While this is true manaphy doesn't mind setting up because of its typing and bulk and sub is not troublesome to ho at all lol, scarf is also pretty easy to play around but its by far hoopa us best answer to HO, the fact that hoopa u gets one hit koed by a bisharp sucker punch tells you enough about how well it does against HO, It has NO RIGHT to be on the same rank as manaphy, getting a free switch with it is MUCH easier theorymonning then in a ACTUAL battle,unless you want to use your incredibly defensively frail 80 speed mon as a revenge killer.... it has some good sets and lures but its so much of a hit and miss mon to be in a plus with other consistent mons at this point....Stall has been pretty bad for awhile now not like alot of people were running stall before this

 

[Shruggy]

While this is true manaphy doesn't mind setting up because of its typing and bulk and sub is not troublesome to ho at all lol, scarf is also pretty easy to play around but its by far hoopa us best answer to HO, the fact that hoopa u gets one hit koed by a bisharp sucker punch tells you enough about how well it does against HO, It has NO RIGHT to be on the same rank as manaphy, getting a free switch with it is MUCH easier theorymonning then in a ACTUAL battle,unless you want to use your incredibly defensively frail 80 speed mon as a revenge killer.... it has some good sets and lures but its so much of a hit and miss mon to be in a plus with other consistent mons at this point....Stall has been pretty bad for awhile now not like alot of people were running stall before this

Difference between Manaphy and hoopa is that there are actually options you can run on stall for Manaphy such as cm Unaware clef, av tangrowth, water absorb mons or goth trick scarf.

Compare that to hoopa where you literally have 1-2 shaky checks which are bopped by coverage moves anyway. You can't stall something with the coverage it has available and the attacking stats it has.

Bottom line is you can play around manaphy if you prepare for it but since you can't prepare for hoopa what's the point at all lol

 

[QueenOfHax]

Hoopa-U and Kyurem-B are not comparable in the slightiest. They have completely different typings (Kyu-B has more weaknesses, but it also has resistances unlike Hoopa-U), Kyu-B has an awesome ablity and Hoopa-U doesn't, Kyu-B has excellent bulk and Hoopa-U has Weavile-tier physical bulk, Kyu-B has enough speed to outpace important threats such as Lando-T and Rotom-W, but it's true that Hoopa-U has better mixed offenses and movepool.
At the end of the day however Hoopa-U is just one of those "stall destroyers" that struggle against any other playstyle, such as Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross. Unlike them, Kyu-B can actually pull its weight against balance and HO by capitalizing on the defensive cores and pivots commonly found on those (Lando-T, Gliscor, Heatran, Celebi and so on), which is why the two shouldn't be compared.

I'd say Hoopa-U should be placed in A- at best; once the shiny new toy syndrome effect wears off people will realize it isn't as good as it seems on paper. Thankfully a few people here have already realized this.

 

[Kutscher]

i think the best option is knock off/hyperspace fury,psychc, gunk shot and focus blast, i think focus blast > drain punch cause u can 2KO things like skarmory, sp.def klefki and offensive mega scizor, things that he can't touch with drain punch. but you can run drain punch for more acc and beat bisharp with 100% acc. fire punch is also good

 

[AM]

Asking for rank placement, not a social gathering of guessing what it does.

 

[teamsnickers]

Never mind the fact that Manaphy still dies to common pokemon and is weak to common types, doesn't have perfect coverage, is limited to 3 attacks bc of Tail Glow, also sucks against HO and even bulky offense, has to rely on Scald to BS past its checks if it doesn't have the right coverage move, and the fact that one of Manaphy's roles is to beat stall which you said is basically dead now with Hoopa-U everywhere.

I said stall was pretty much dead before hoopa u came out anyway because of all the stallbreakers running around.... Manaphy is actually VERY effective against ho because unlike hoopa u it has good typing,bulk and NOT shit speed.... Manaphy rapes bulky offense I honestly have no clue wtf you're talking about would be cool to see a replay on how manaphy gets tossed by bulky offense... Anyway firing off scalds is one of manaphys best features because it can cripple offensive teams sweepers/wincons.....Hoopa u destroys stall of course but how viable was stall before hoopa u came out anyway?? Unlike hoopa u manaphy doesn't get forced out by almost EVERYTHING that outspeeds it... Maybe it wasn't just a coincidence that passing speed with bp was banned right before this thing came out...... Hoopa u is deadly when it gets a free switch but its too slow to revenge consistently against offense in a meta where before hoopa u came out offense was the best playstyle anyway(IMO)... AV is prob its most underrated and best set since no one prepares for it and you can switch in on special attacking mons without a bug move and thats the closest you're getting to a free switch unless you're 80 base speed mon is revenging and thats not the best plan if its not scarfed..... A rank is honestly where this thing needs to go rn its not even close to the same level as manaphy keldeo and the rest of the A+ rank mons at being consistent against ALL types of teams its a cool mon with insane stats and almost a perfect movepool but it gets steamrolled by anything that outspeeds it in a meta where everyone is trying to outspeed eachother (why sand offense is being abused on the high ldr) Its alot like mega manectric but the opposite, mega manectric is great against offense but struggles against bulky teams since its not that powerful, hoopa u is insanely powerful and hits like a truck but gets rolled out by a large portion of what outspeeds it and just kills momentum for your team in most cases

 

[Kutscher]

Hoopa-U and Kyurem-B are not comparable in the slightiest. They have completely different typings (Kyu-B has more weaknesses, but it also has resistances unlike Hoopa-U), Kyu-B has an awesome ablity and Hoopa-U doesn't, Kyu-B has excellent bulk and Hoopa-U has Weavile-tier physical bulk, Kyu-B has enough speed to outpace important threats such as Lando-T and Rotom-W, but it's true that Hoopa-U has better mixed offenses and movepool.
At the end of the day however Hoopa-U is just one of those "stall destroyers" that struggle against any other playstyle, such as Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross. Unlike them, Kyu-B can actually pull its weight against balance and HO by capitalizing on the defensive cores and pivots commonly found on those (Lando-T, Gliscor, Heatran, Celebi and so on), which is why the two shouldn't be compared.

I'd say Hoopa-U should be placed in A- at best; once the shiny new toy syndrome effect wears off people will realize it isn't as good as it seems on paper. Thankfully a few people here have already realized this.

while kyurem-b have a higher defense and hp, he isn' that bulk, he is easly checked by offensive mons like mega-lop, mega-meta, excadrill, keldeo, latios, char-x/y, mega alt, mega scizor. and all this is only in s-a ranks, hoopa-u also have the ability to take defensive pivots that HO teams uses, and can take more defensive mons than Kyurem-b.

 

[WhiteQueen]

The difference between Kyurem and Hoopa is you have Pokemon that can safely switch into the former and virtually nothing against the latter. That's the reason why Hoopa is a pain in the butt for fat teams to deal with, and the reason why it should be S- or A+ ranked at worst. Unlike Hoopa, fat teams can stall Kyurem out. Against Hoopa, you have to sacrifice something then attempt to revenge kill it afterward.

 

[teamsnickers]

The difference between Kyurem and Hoopa is you have Pokemon that can safely switch into the former and virtually nothing against the latter. That's the reason why Hoopa is a pain in the butt for fat teams to deal with, and the reason why it should be S- or A+ ranked at worst. Unlike Hoopa, fat teams can stall Kyurem out. Against Hoopa, you have to sacrifice something then attempt to revenge kill it afterward.

This is true and you really cant compare kyurem b to hoopa u.... but against anything thats not fat teams hoopa u is basically useless and is a huuge liability unlike other wallbreakers like a manaphy...for example mega alakzam destroys HO teams.... but its not a plus rank because anything outside of that its a liability

 

[Martin]

While hoopa u is not on par with kyurem b, its also IMO worse and not as well rounded as manaphy. Manaphy has FAR better typing,synergy,bulk and also has great coverage like hoopa u... While manaphy is not as powerful as hoopa u it is far more useful against OFFENSE and doesn't get forced out by even close to the amount of mons as hoopa u does. I honestly dont know how you can justify manaphy and hoopa u being in the same rank as manaphy is the far better wallbreaker and can be used against ALL types of teams at least semi effectively.... My replay that I posted a page back where hoopa u was absolute useless against my ho team, was a scenario that you will NEVER see with manaphy....To whitequeens point fat teams and stall were never really good in this meta anyway with all the wallbreakers around..... In the current OFFENSIVE meta I just dont see how hoopa u can be A+ and on the same rank as something like manaphy....

Ok. I stopped reading when I reached the point where you said that Manaphy is better against offense. To say that Manaphy is better against offense is like saying that Curse Ferrothorn is the ultimate stallbreaker. Seriously, they both mostly fall flat on their face. Seriously, using that as an argument to support Hoopa not moving up is completely insane. If your Manaphy has had ANY success against HO at all, your opponent was almost certainly extremely incompetent. If anything, Hoopa fares better as a wallbreaker v.s. offense due to its ability to run viably run scarf and sub sets courtesy of its greater immediate power and (compared to Sub Manaphy) lack of reliance on Rest. Seriously, due to the nature of Manaphy as a Pokémon, it effectively needs to run either Tail Glow or Calm Mind in order to deal heavy damage, and if you use Sub you also need Rest in order to stay healthy, which is reliant on rain to be of any use at all. And now it's out of moveslots (Sub+TG+RD+Rest). Sure you could conteract this by using it on a rain team, but they are already strapped for team slots as-is. If it runs scarf, it isn't KOing shit. This is why Manaphy doesn't manage against offense. To use that as your argument is completely ridiculous. Sub seriously f*cks with HO as it is Hoopa's best way of playing around Bisharp while also being able to capitalise on switches that it forces. Sure, if it can't get a sub up it falls flat, but it is significantly more useful than Manaphy.

While this is true manaphy doesn't mind setting up because of its typing and bulk and sub is not troublesome to ho at all lol, scarf is also pretty easy to play around but its by far hoopa us best answer to HO, the fact that hoopa u gets one hit koed by a bisharp sucker punch tells you enough about how well it does against HO, It has NO RIGHT to be on the same rank as manaphy, getting a free switch with it is MUCH easier theorymonning then in a ACTUAL battle,unless you want to use your incredibly defensively frail 80 speed mon as a revenge killer.... it has some good sets and lures but its so much of a hit and miss mon to be in a plus with other consistent mons at this point....Stall has been pretty bad for awhile now not like alot of people were running stall before this

Sorry for quoting another post of yours, but you posted it while I was typing; don't take it personally. If you are using scarf Hoopa, you are not going to be switching it in on anything beyond special attacks which aren't super effective. Lol what made you think you'd ever try to switch scarf hoopa on anything other than a Psychic-type move or a special attack? You use it to revenge kill something as, once its in, it is capable of OHKOing or 2HKOing literally every common Pokémon on a HO team. Once you have sniffed out that a Pokémon is not carrying a choice scarf or is not Bisharp, you can just bring it out once a teammate is down. You bring it in on the faint (or even a slow VoltTurn works), and then they lose something to Hyperspace Fury or Zen Headbutt or Gunk Shot or whatever you are running on it. Get it out of your head that you are going to try to use Scarf Hoopa to switch into stuff. In addition to this, Scarf Hoopa's best teammates are easily Healing Wish Latias, which both gives it a free switch-in and allows it to heal back up to full if it needs to take a special hit from something like Mega Alakazam (doesn't do shit to you) or a random faster scarfer such as Latios (needs 1 absolute max roll and 1 that deals a needs to be within 1 hit point of max damage to score a 2HKO with Draco before rocks (inb4 HP Bug Scarf Latios to counter scarf Hoopa-U)), and (Mega) Scizor, which provides great synergy with Hoopa (they beat each-others checks while Scizor resist both of Hoopa's weaknesses) and can provide a slow U-Turn for it to come in on. tl;dr: Hoopa isn't switching in on anything.

I said stall was pretty much dead before hoopa u came out anyway because of all the stallbreakers running around.... Manaphy is actually VERY effective against ho because unlike hoopa u it has good typing,bulk and NOT shit speed.... Manaphy rapes bulky offense I honestly have no clue wtf you're talking about would be cool to see a replay on how manaphy gets tossed by bulky offense... Anyway firing off scalds is one of manaphys best features because it can cripple offensive teams sweepers/wincons.....Hoopa u destroys stall of course but how viable was stall before hoopa u came out anyway?? Unlike hoopa u manaphy doesn't get forced out by almost EVERYTHING that outspeeds it... Maybe it wasn't just a coincidence that passing speed with bp was banned right before this thing came out...... Hoopa u is deadly when it gets a free switch but its too slow to revenge consistently against offense in a meta where before hoopa u came out offense was the best playstyle anyway(IMO)... AV is prob its most underrated and best set since no one prepares for it and you can switch in on special attacking mons without a bug move and thats the closest you're getting to a free switch unless you're 80 base speed mon is revenging and thats not the best plan if its not scarfed..... A rank is honestly where this thing needs to go rn its not even close to the same level as manaphy keldeo and the rest of the A+ rank mons at being consistent against ALL types of teams its a cool mon with insane stats and almost a perfect movepool but it gets steamrolled by anything that outspeeds it in a meta where everyone is trying to outspeed eachother (why sand offense is being abused on the high ldr)

Ok I am SO sorry rn. I feel like I'm making you feel targeted, but I don't mean to. You just keep posting while I'm typing (srs I have been typing for about 45 minutes now and am starting to question whether I need to get more of a life) XD.

I've said this already in this post, and I'm going to say it again to ensure that you get this into your head. Manaphy can not pull its weight against hyper offense as it can't set up against it (it sets up and then gets forced out...), is reliant on setting up and has a disappointing speed tier (shares this final characteristic with Hoopa). Unlike Hoopa, Manaphy can't afford to run Choice Scarf or Substitute to deal with common HO 'mons due to its total reliance on Tail Glow and Calm Mind to break balance and stall. This means that all of a sudden you are losing momentum v.s. hyper offense just by bringing Manaphy with you, and Manaphy can't counteract this by bringing an anti-meta set in the way that Hoopa can with Scarf and Sub+3 attacks (not bringing up SubNP in this scenario as that falls flat against HO if it tries to set up Nasty Plots).
=======================================================================
Anyway, so that this post isn't all me ranting about how Manaphy can't pull its weight against hyper offense and how Hoopa-U's scarf and sub sets can pull their weight v.s. hyper offense, I'll just state my position on Hoopa-U. I am personally neutral on its position just so long as it is in either A+ or S (although I have an S lean and feel that it is in the hypothetical 'X' rank' (for those who are unfamiliar with what I mean by that, the 'X rank' is a thought experiment that I came up with and have talked about in this thread in the past; it is a hypothetical rank between S and A+, where a number of the top A+ Pokémon and Clefable sit, which only comes into existence when needed)). This is for a number of reasons which I will outline briefly. Firstly, if a playstyle lies between or on equal footing with stall and/or balance on the offense/defense spectrum, it completely and utterly shreds them. While the metagame has shifted more towards offense since its release, the sheer fact that it fills its role as a balance or stall (or anything in-between) breaker as well as it does is a big selling point. In addition to this, it has a small number of viable sets which are able to pull their weight against offense, and this makes it a candidate for the role of anti-meta, depending on whether you choose to target balance/stall with its standard sets (AV, LO etc.) or choose to lure offense into a false sense of security with its sub-standard sets (scarf, sub) - no 'sub' pun intended. In addition to all of this, Hyperspace Fury is argubly the most spammable attack in the game due to it coming off of Hoopa's insane base 160 attack stat (potentially with a Life Orb too) and lowering a stat which Hoopa rarely uses anyway with the added benefit of ignoring Protect (further aiding it in obliterating stall) and not making contact (further aiding it in obliterating balance). Its special bulk is good before the consideration of the AV set, allowing it to take at least one neutral special hit if it needs to. While its typing leaves it with no resistances, it means that its STABs are only resisted by Dark, which is easily covered by Focus Blast/Drain Punch anyway. Hoopa is in a similar boat to BW Hydreigon in that it has no counters due to its stupid coverage and insane power.

It is held back to an extent by certain undesirable traits. Its base speed is disappointing (although this can be remedied to an extent by scarf or SubSalac) and its defense means that it can't take a physical hit to save its life. In addition to this, its typing leaves it with zero resistances, reducing its ability to repeatedly switch in. It also lacks reliable recovery, meaning that it can't utilise its good special bulk with a defensive set. However, whether these are enough to downplay its insane versatility and offensive capabilities is debatable to the point where it shoudln't be S is debatable.

To make a long story short:

Hoopa-U --> A+ or S (personal S lean, but mostly neutral on which position)

Now its time for me to get a life after typing for over an hour and a half...

 

[teamsnickers]

Ok. I stopped reading when I reached the point where you said that Manaphy is better against offense. To say that Manaphy is better against offense is like saying that Curse Ferrothorn is the ultimate stallbreaker. Seriously, they both mostly fall flat on their face. Seriously, using that as an argument to support Hoopa not moving up is completely insane. If your Manaphy has had ANY success against HO at all, your opponent was almost certainly extremely incompetent. If anything, Hoopa fares better as a wallbreaker v.s. offense due to its ability to run viably run scarf and sub sets courtesy of its greater immediate power and (compared to Sub Manaphy) lack of reliance on Rest. Seriously, due to the nature of Manaphy as a Pokémon, it effectively needs to run either Tail Glow or Calm Mind in order to deal heavy damage, and if you use Sub you also need Rest in order to stay healthy, which is reliant on rain to be of any use at all. And now it's out of moveslots (Sub+TG+RD+Rest). Sure you could conteract this by using it on a rain team, but they are already strapped for team slots as-is. If it runs scarf, it isn't KOing shit. This is why Manaphy doesn't manage against offense. To use that as your argument is completely ridiculous. Sub seriously f*cks with HO as it is Hoopa's best way of playing around Bisharp while also being able to capitalise on switches that it forces. Sure, if it can't get a sub up it falls flat, but it is significantly more useful than Manaphy.

Sorry for quoting another post of yours, but you posted it while I was typing; don't take it personally. If you are using scarf Hoopa, you are not going to be switching it in on anything beyond special attacks which aren't super effective. Lol what made you think you'd ever try to switch scarf hoopa on anything other than a Psychic-type move or a special attack? You use it to revenge kill something as, once its in, it is capable of OHKOing or 2HKOing literally every common Pokémon on a HO team. Once you have sniffed out that a Pokémon is not carrying a choice scarf or is not Bisharp, you can just bring it out once a teammate is down. You bring it in on the faint (or even a slow VoltTurn works), and then they lose something to Hyperspace Fury or Zen Headbutt or Gunk Shot or whatever you are running on it. Get it out of your head that you are going to try to use Scarf Hoopa to switch into stuff. In addition to this, Scarf Hoopa's best teammates are easily Healing Wish Latias, which both gives it a free switch-in and allows it to heal back up to full if it needs to take a special hit from something like Mega Alakazam (doesn't do shit to you) or a random faster scarfer such as Latios (needs 1 absolute max roll and 1 that deals a needs to be within 1 hit point of max damage to score a 2HKO with Draco before rocks (inb4 HP Bug Scarf Latios to counter scarf Hoopa-U)), and (Mega) Scizor, which provides great synergy with Hoopa (they beat each-others checks while Scizor resist both of Hoopa's weaknesses) and can provide a slow U-Turn for it to come in on. tl;dr: Hoopa isn't switching in on anything.

Ok I am SO sorry rn. I feel like I'm making you feel targeted, but I don't mean to. You just keep posting while I'm typing (srs I have been typing for about 45 minutes now and am starting to question whether I need to get more of a life) XD.
I've said this already in this post, and I'm going to say it again to ensure that you get this into your head. Manaphy can not pull its weight against hyper offense as it can't set up against it (it sets up and then gets forced out...), is reliant on setting up and has a disappointing speed tier (shares this final characteristic with Hoopa). Unlike Hoopa, Manaphy can't afford to run Choice Scarf or Substitute to deal with common HO 'mons due to its total reliance on Tail Glow and Calm Mind to break balance and stall. This means that all of a sudden you are losing momentum v.s. hyper offense just by bringing Manaphy with you, and Manaphy can't counteract this by bringing an anti-meta set in the way that Hoopa can with Scarf and Sub+3 attacks (not bringing up SubNP in this scenario as that falls flat against HO if it tries to set up Nasty Plots).
=======================================================================
Anyway, so that this post isn't all me ranting about how Manaphy can't pull its weight against hyper offense and how Hoopa-U's scarf and sub sets can pull their weight v.s. hyper offense, I'll just state my position on Hoopa-U. I am personally neutral on its position just so long as it is in either A+ or S (although I have an S lean and feel that it is in the hypothetical 'X' rank' (for those who are unfamiliar with what I mean by that, the 'X rank' is a thought experiment that I came up with and have talked about in this thread in the past; it is a hypothetical rank between S and A+, where a number of the top A+ Pokémon and Clefable sit, which only comes into existence when needed)). This is for a number of reasons which I will outline briefly. Firstly, if a playstyle lies between or on equal footing with stall and/or balance on the offense/defense spectrum, it completely and utterly shreds them. While the metagame has shifted more towards offense since its release, the sheer fact that it fills its role as a balance or stall (or anything in-between) breaker as well as it does is a big selling point. In addition to this, it has a small number of viable sets which are able to pull their weight against offense, and this makes it a candidate for the role of anti-meta, depending on whether you choose to target balance/stall with its standard sets (AV, LO etc.) or choose to lure offense into a false sense of security with its sub-standard sets (scarf, sub) - no 'sub' pun intended. In addition to all of this, Hyperspace Fury is argubly the most spammable attack in the game due to it coming off of Hoopa's insane base 160 attack stat (potentially with a Life Orb too) and lowering a stat which Hoopa rarely uses anyway with the added benefit of ignoring Protect (further aiding it in obliterating stall) and not making contact (further aiding it in obliterating balance). Its special bulk is good before the consideration of the AV set, allowing it to take at least one neutral special hit if it needs to. While its typing leaves it with no resistances, it means that its STABs are only resisted by Dark, which is easily covered by Focus Blast/Drain Punch anyway. Hoopa is in a similar boat to BW Hydreigon in that it has no counters due to its stupid coverage and insane power.

It is held back to an extent by certain undesirable traits. Its base speed is disappointing (although this can be remedied to an extent by scarf or SubSalac) and its defense means that it can't take a physical hit to save its life. In addition to this, its typing leaves it with zero resistances, reducing its ability to repeatedly switch in. It also lacks reliable recovery, meaning that it can't utilise its good special bulk with a defensive set. However, whether these are enough to downplay its insane versatility and offensive capabilities is debatable to the point where it shoudln't be S is debatable.

To make a long story short:

Hoopa-U --> A+ or S (personal S lean, but mostly neutral on which position)

Now its time for me to get a life after typing for over an hour and a half...

I actually like the s rank idea ALOTbecause rn a plus is filled with some insane mons (tornadus t mega scizor azumarill keldeo) I feel that you're underrating manaphy against ho a tad and underrating how deadly scald burns are to any hyper offense team (most ho teams dont run heal bell and the closest thing they have to status recovery is latias HW) 80 speed tier is honestly just REALLY bad unless we're talking about a PURE walkbreaker.... with 100 speed you can at least outspeed things like lando t mega gyarados and have speed ties.... While your post is solid I feel like you forgot about signal beam mega alakzam which is a really solid lure and hits the same things that sball hits on zammy with SLIGHTLY less power, and one hit kos all hoopa u that arent AV (I ran it against jacob and it lured hoopa u in for the kill) It would have been great if there were some replays so w could see how sub salac performs against ho and if its too frail to be about to get a sub up... while hyperspace fury is INSANELY powerful its honestly not that spammable on a scarf set with fairy and fighting resisting it(things like mega altaria azumarill and keldeo can come in on it with ease)A big part of why manaphy is more useful on offense besides firing off scalds is its pure bulk and typing (100/100/100 bulk is great) which means that manaphy is harder to one hit ko. As a player who mostly only uses HO I can be the first to tell you that switching in on scald is a bitch and the crippling burns can be a game changer, while manaphy wont be a win con against offense it can be MUCH MORE useful then hoopa u can cripple a mon which can let your win con set up easier.... I think that you're overrating hoopa u ability to set up or even switch in, this thing is a B*tch to try to bring in and is not nearly bulky enough or fast enough to be a effective revenge killer. Most of us know about its massive power and how it has few IF ANY switchins but this is a mon thats better in theory then in the game..(thats where you can compare it to kyurem b) It takes more momentum away from your team than clefable and what alot of people dont get was that the meta shifted to offense FAR before hoopa u was released (look at any smogtour battle or high ladder match things like sand offense and volt turn were everywhere BEFORE hoopa u was released..)Hoopa u is not antimeta the meta is the reason why this thing shouldn't be A+ or S rank because offense is everywhere and thats not changing anytime soon... it has absolutely NO defensive synergy and its scarf set doesn't have the wallbreaking power thatany of hoopa us other set have and like I said before its "spammable moves" have aton of popular resist and can even be set up bait...... IN THIS current meta thats not changing anytime soon hoopa u is not a A+ rank mon IMO... it fits much better in A, you mentioned mega scizor as a great partner for hoopa u because it resist fairy/bug but when moves like bisharp sucker punch one hit ko you it won't be beneficial for you to even try to create a defensive core for it