Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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I should clarify that the difference in power between the two is marginal, but you are technically speaking correct:

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 187-222 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I know(I also used an Arceus when I did the calcs,lol.)

Anyways I find funny when people say that M-Lopunny lack power against Bulky mons, but then say that Megagross does an stupid unwallable amount of damage(it has more coverage move tough,of course Megagross is overall better, but in terms of raw damage M-Lopunny is still stronger.)
 

AM

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Having a raw damage output isn't the only factoring that needs to be taken into account. Its matchup against multiple play-styles and how it actually functions against these play-styles in legitimate practice is the foundation of the rankings. You can theorymon every single scenario where it somehow wins against a variety of playstyles but doesn't change the fact this needs to be known it does this in practice. Offense hates M-Lopunny that's already a given, Balance builds upon various defensive cores to mitigate the issue, and M-Lopunny's matchup against stall is actually pretty match-up based considering the moment a bulky Fairy Type such as M-Altaria or Unaware Clefable arrives (which will be often on more defensive minded teams), it has to spend its time dancing around this. If you're building a stall team that gets "shitted on" by M-Lopunny, that's pretty much a bad stall team and you should seriously consider re-building or scrapping it, not going to even sugar coat that response. For the time being it's fine in A+.
 
Having a raw damage output isn't the only factoring that needs to be taken into account. Its matchup against multiple play-styles and how it actually functions against these play-styles in legitimate practice is the foundation of the rankings. You can theorymon every single scenario where it somehow wins against a variety of playstyles but doesn't change the fact this needs to be known it does this in practice. Offense hates M-Lopunny that's already a given, Balance builds upon various defensive cores to mitigate the issue, and M-Lopunny's matchup against stall is actually pretty match-up based considering the moment a bulky Fairy Type such as M-Altaria or Unaware Clefable arrives (which will be often on more defensive minded teams), it has to spend its time dancing around this. If you're building a stall team that gets "shitted on" by M-Lopunny, that's pretty much a bad stall team and you should seriously consider re-building or scrapping it, not going to even sugar coat that response. For the time being it's fine in A+.
I agree with this, the only point of making about post showing some calcs compared to a Megagross was just to show that it can get past bulky mons in certain moments since its damage output is actually better than some people state and give credit for.
 

Aberforth

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I think this magnezone conversation has gone a little far, almost everything to talk about has been said, so I think that we should come to another topic. The one I am seeing is Entei. In my opinion, it is the second best physical fire type behind Charizard X, which takes a mega slot. Infernape is good, but Entei gets a great moveset with E-Speed, Sacred Fire, Iron Head, Stone Edge, Bulldoze (In OU for heatran). This really great coverage, and paired with Speed and Power plus respectable bulk, and different sets, like assault vest and band, Entei is the most respectable physical fire type in ou that doesnt take up that helpful mega slot. My Vote is Entei from C to B-
...Victini is sad at your opinion. But I do support entei to C+ or B-, sacred fire is very spammable, with a very nice 50% chance to burn whatever switches in on it. So while I dont think it's as good as Victini, it shouldn't be ranked below stuff like camerupt.
 

AM

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Entei shouldn't rise, simple as that. You guys are really overplaying its abilities for something that has an over dependency on an extremely limited movepool, an SR weakness, on top of a mono typing that leaves it prone to so many meta-game trends that it's baffling. Defensive cores don't really care about Entei when they have hazards and defensive waters to wear it down, which is easy as hell cause every single hazard in the game can touch Entei and complicates this more with Life Orb variants. Then you have Choice Band which would be nice if Entei wasn't a one trick pony in its movepool, or at least its realistic viable one, which has the potential to give the opponent momentum which is stupid considering it's suppose to have this move that is soooo spammable, yet only has 8 PP to work with. 8 PP might seem like enough against offense but when the meta is leaning towards a more balanced approach this really isn't a lot and you really need to be wary of wasting moves such as this against builds that have one or two team-mates that don't have a single care for Entei. Then you have Keldeo, M-Diancie, Gliscor, Sand Offense, Rain Offense, Lando-T, Manaphy, Landorus, Garchomp, the Zards, Gyarados, Tyranitar....this is the hint to make you think of all the actual relevant stuff that handles Entei and are found on a variety of teams with the list pretty much continuing to include equally relevant and underrated threats not at the top of the usage pole. It's fine in C.
 
I am not convinced tbh, it faces competition from Tornadus-T and M-Pidgeot as a pivot and Hurricane spammer, since they outrun practically the same things, but Tornadus-T is stronger and has more durability with Regenerator(something important because of SR.),and M-Pidgeot is more reliable(but takes a Mega spot.) Draco Meteor(his biggest difference against Tornadus-T) is nice to have, but if compared to Specs Latios it is much more manageable since the difference in power is significant(and the increase in usage a lot of Steels and Fairies out there does not help), both of them can become bait for setup mons because of the -2, but it is much more difficult to change into a Latios.

It has its uses, but it is outclassed in everything it does by another mon(pivoting,bird spamming,putting holes.), to be honest if Greninja was still in OU I think it would be great to put it higher, since it had the niche of outrunning and dealing with it, something Latios,Tornadus-T,M-Pidgeot(and a lot of OU) would kill for, but since that it is no longer the case I am not really in favor of him in raising to C+, it would be good for cleaning if your primary STABs were not a 70% accuracy move and another that puts you at -2,(since Air Slash and Dragon Pulse lack power to be used effectively for cleaning.)
Well like I said, Noivern outspeeding Latios and having a powerful Draco Meteor/mediocre dragon pulse makes it an ideal revenge killer compared to Latios, especially due to Noivern sporting slightly better bulk to take a last minute prioirty from something before finishing it off. Latios is mainly an offensive defogger of sorts, rarely will you see one try to revenge kill something, especially due to the fact that it mainly runs draco meteor and psyshock's low power makes it not an ideal choice for a final blow (how many times have you guys barely missed out on such a ko...).Tornadus-T's supposed better bulk is only due to regenerator allowing it to run an assault vest set, because Noivern and Tornadus's bulk is highly similar if you look at it (85/80/80 to 79/80/90). In addition, there is the gimmicky switcheroo set that Kaxrida mentioned that allows you to trick a choice scarf or specs onto something, and specs is highly do-able due to it benefitting noivern immensely while it has the glasses, and crippling foes more effecitvely than a scarf would (I.E. Garchomp, Ferrothorn). This is something Latios cannot usually afford to do due to its lower speed making tricking specs an unideal choice. Again, I'm not saying Noivern is better than these Pokemon, but it has its niche in OU an is a solid, viable pick for teams, which I feel a C- rank doesnt say. It should be C+, or at the very least C
 
I think sceptile should move to A-. It has flaws, but it is good at revenge killing. It can check threats such as mega lopunny, heatran, and thundurus. Bisharp can be trolled by using sub on the first turn expecting the sucker punch, and then focus blasting. Mega diancie can be OHKOed by a grass type move. It also checks keldeo with a grass move. Lots of OU offensive mons can be checked by sceptile and I don't think it should be B+.
 
I think sceptile should move to A-. It has flaws, but it is good at revenge killing. It can check threats such as mega lopunny, heatran, and thundurus. Bisharp can be trolled by using sub on the first turn expecting the sucker punch, and then focus blasting. Mega diancie can be OHKOed by a grass type move. Lots of OU offensive mons can be checked by sceptile and I don't think it should be B+.
You're right, but unfortunately base 145 SpA isn't so great unboosted. Base 110 Attack is also sort of low for a Swords Dance set and it is also checked by Talonflame, who is a major threat in the tier.
 
You're right, but unfortunately base 145 SpA isn't so great unboosted. Base 110 Attack is also sort of low for a Swords Dance set and it is also checked by Talonflame, who is a major threat in the tier.
Lol why are you bringing up Swords Dance? That's like bringing up Stored Power as a main point in a Clefable nomination :U
I see Mega Sceptile as a sort of... budget greninja. It has a fantastic speed tier, great offensive stat and some nice coverage. It uses those traits to get in, kill something, and get out.
 
Oh, I never said SD was that great, I was just saying why it wasn't A- worthy anymore IMO. Its physical movepool is awesome but base 110 unboosted isn't that awesome.
 
It's scary behind a sub. Say a pokemon dies and sceptile checks it. Sceptile can switch in and go for the sub. The other person will most likely switch out. Once behind the sub, it is easy to sweep.
One could argue that any offensive mega is scary behind a sub. Sceptile may be the fast grass-type OU has wanted, but it's just not strong enough. It's also frail and 4x weak to ice.
 

bludz

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Sceptile suffers from weak STABs and meh coverage. Leaf Storm just isn't spammable because of the drops and Giga Drain has pretty low power. Dragon Pulse is decent but steels and fairies eat it up no problem. HP Fire / Focus Blast don't even OHKO Ferrothorn which does a gigantic amount in return with Gyro Ball. Too many common things are just a huge problem for Sceptile for it to move up IMO. The best thing it has going for it is its speed but unfortunately gets shut down by the smogon bird
 
Honestly mega sceptile shouldn't rise, its stabs are low base power unless you want to run leaf storm which is reducing his sp.atk stab so he would have to switch out each time he uses it or he becomes set up bait, why would I use sceptile as a stall breaker which gives offence trouble when megapunny can do a better job at it and has better stabs, megagross does more damage and has more bulk so isn't easily revenge killed, mega gallade is a better sword dancer, mega altaria typing makes her a better set upper as well, mega gard stall breaks but has only 100 speed.

Honestly if I need a mega there is usually always a mega that can do his job better, unless I want a mon that can avoid powder moves. I honestly would rather use serperior if I wanted a special attacking grass type, I would even nominate it to drop to B.
 

Thisbemyalt

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It's scary behind a sub. Say a pokemon dies and sceptile checks it. Sceptile can switch in and go for the sub. The other person will most likely switch out. Once behind the sub, it is easy to sweep.
Sceptile is fast but piss weak for a mega, frankly serp as AXES said is better to use since no cost of a mega slot. Sceptile would be much better if it could actually kill most of the mons it outspeeds like latias and sometimes even latios lol. Sceptile performance behind a sub is kind of a bad point since it finds little opportunity to get behind that sub but is also weak to hyper voice pixalate which is great rn and bug buzz volc which is great. Overall I would support a drop to B or at least not a move up.
 
It's scary behind a sub. Say a pokemon dies and sceptile checks it. Sceptile can switch in and go for the sub. The other person will most likely switch out. Once behind the sub, it is easy to sweep.
well yeah, any sweeper could be scary behind a sub. under favorable circumstances, you can make anything seem good. scep has trash typing, underwhelming power, shit stabs, and its speed is cool and all but thats about it. its also worth mentioning that a lot of things rising in usage beat it, like tornadus, volcorona, and altaria. dont really care if it moves down, but dont raise sceptile
 
Mega Sharpedo is fairly decent, with a hard hitting Crunch, pre-mega Speed Boost, good mixed capabilites, and overall a good late-game cleaner. It is a semi-reliable check to Metagross, which has a 50/50 chance to leaving at the moment, as well as Lati@s. Though it does face competition from things like Mega Gyarados and Crawdaunt, it is still decent. B or B- for sure
 
Mega Sharpedo still makes for a decently hard hitting cleaner from what I've seen. The problem I'd have to think of right now is reliance on Protect to set-up, and being more dependent on that boost than something like Gyarados. The other problem I think facing him is that things he needs weakened/beaten by others are sitting high viability, like Keldeo, Mega Sableye (checks via WoW), Banded Azumarill, Phys Def Clefable, Mega Gyarados (who also can do late game cleaning/sweeping well), as well as any scarfer faster than Jolly Lando-T (who speed ties Adamant Sharpedo).

The thing that makes Sharpedo stand out to me is the fact that he's very hard to stop once he starts cleaning, considering his powerful Crunch and usually hitting twice at +1 speed. The problem I guess there is how many things Sharpedo needs worn out by his teammates since he only will get that one chance to clean. He's a Pokemon that can be very effective, but you HAVE to build the team around him. There are some Pokemon that can't be splashed onto EVERY team, or make one teammate a better choice than another, but Sharpedo pretty much needs the entire team ready to support him, or at least his support.
 
Well like I said, Noivern outspeeding Latios and having a powerful Draco Meteor/mediocre dragon pulse makes it an ideal revenge killer compared to Latios, especially due to Noivern sporting slightly better bulk to take a last minute prioirty from something before finishing it off. Latios is mainly an offensive defogger of sorts, rarely will you see one try to revenge kill something, especially due to the fact that it mainly runs draco meteor and psyshock's low power makes it not an ideal choice for a final blow (how many times have you guys barely missed out on such a ko...).Tornadus-T's supposed better bulk is only due to regenerator allowing it to run an assault vest set, because Noivern and Tornadus's bulk is highly similar if you look at it (85/80/80 to 79/80/90). In addition, there is the gimmicky switcheroo set that Kaxrida mentioned that allows you to trick a choice scarf or specs onto something, and specs is highly do-able due to it benefitting noivern immensely while it has the glasses, and crippling foes more effecitvely than a scarf would (I.E. Garchomp, Ferrothorn). This is something Latios cannot usually afford to do due to its lower speed making tricking specs an unideal choice. Again, I'm not saying Noivern is better than these Pokemon, but it has its niche in OU an is a solid, viable pick for teams, which I feel a C- rank doesnt say. It should be C+, or at the very least C
I said it previously, he lacks the power to clean consistently, and his 2 best STAB moves have either shaky accuracy or make him a bait set up, and Psyshock may not be the most powerful move out there but does great damage to special walls(something Noivern will never be able to do), and is consistent(something Hurricane is not), you should not undersell it.

It is not ''supposed''bulk, it is longevity, and as said previously it makes the difference,especially with SR out there, and Switcheroo is gimmicky,especially since even if it works your Noivern will return to do baby damage without Choice Specs, or you could get locked against a Mega,which again turns you into set up bait.

As said preiously I don't see why it should go up since it is outclasses by everything it does by another pokemon,as a Specs user there are Raikou,Keldeo,Latios who the first is a better pivot,and the three of them have more reliable STABs, and do overall more damage, and that is just the ones that I can think at the top of my head,Tornadus-T/M-Pidgeot are better Hurricane spammers and there are more viable Draco Meteor users(because again, damage difference.)
 
I said it previously, he lacks the power to clean consistently, and his 2 best STAB moves have either shaky accuracy or make him a bait set up, and Psyshock may not be the most powerful move out there but does great damage to special walls(something Noivern will never be able to do), and is consistent(something Hurricane is not), you should not undersell it.

It is not ''supposed''bulk, it is longevity, and as said previously it makes the difference,especially with SR out there, and Switcheroo is gimmicky,especially since even if it works your Noivern will return to do baby damage without Choice Specs, or you could get locked against a Mega,which again turns you into set up bait.

As said preiously I don't see why it should go up since it is outclasses by everything it does by another pokemon,as a Specs user there are Raikou,Keldeo,Latios who the first is a better pivot,and the three of them have more reliable STABs, and do overall more damage, and that is just the ones that I can think at the top of my head,Tornadus-T/M-Pidgeot are better Hurricane spammers and there are more viable Draco Meteor users(because again, damage difference.)
While I do agree with you that Noivern shouldn't move up, trick/switcheroo is in no way a gimmick. Being able to beat walls that would normally beat Noivern/Latios is a huge plus. If you catch your opponent off guard, you can also often prevent calm mind sweepers such as Clefable from beating your team. And Noivern being able to do this to Pokemon behind subs is a plus for Noivern.
 
While I do agree with you that Noivern shouldn't move up, trick/switcheroo is in no way a gimmick. Being able to beat walls that would normally beat Noivern/Latios is a huge plus. If you catch your opponent off guard, you can also often prevent calm mind sweepers such as Clefable from beating your team. And Noivern being able to do this to Pokemon behind subs is a plus for Noivern.
You fail to notice why it doesn't work as great as it should, Trick/Switcheroo are interesting options, for example Rotom-W is can pull off with this, because even after he loses its Scarf it can still cripple or provide momentum to the team, now look at Noivern, the problem is that it gives a precious coverage move for it(or U-turn), and after it loses it, it will do baby damage, then add the probability of the opponent having a Mega out when you do it, I am not saying it will never work, but I don't think it is consistent enough, there is a reason for Trick not being that common out there you know.
 

Clone

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I don't see Noivern as viable. Torn T eclipses Noivern in every conceivable way. It has more power, better coverage, better bulk, and Regenerator. Additionally, it's able to go mixed and wallbreak while pivoting around. Noivern can't do that. It's weak as shit and can't take hits to save its life. This doesn't even account for the fact that Latios and Hydreigon exist, which do the special attacking Dragon role much better. Both are able to wallbreak too, while the former also provides great utility for the team in the form of Defog and being a solid Keldeo check. Noivern can't do any of these things. It suffers from Donphan syndrome, which is where a mon tries to be a hybrid of multiple mons but ends up being shitty at everything, and that's honestly what Noivern is. You can say that he can use trick specs or whatever, but Latios can do that too if that's something that you really want. Noivern should definitely not rise, and if anything, should move down to D or be outright unranked.
 
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DarkNostalgia

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Seconding Noivern's move to unranked. Even it's specs set lacks power, specs draco fails to OHKO keldeo and i bet a bunch of other stuff I haven't thought about, and relying on moves with only 70 accuracy is really shitty. Yeah agreeing with -Clone- Torn-t outclasses noivern in pretty much everything except for dragon stab.

EDIT: For disbelievers, here is the calc: 252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 282-333 (87.3 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
 
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