O RLY? ISRAELI

[kittenmay]

So lately I've been talking to people online, on IRC, about Israel. It really bothered me how many misconceptions people had about it, how little they knew about Israel REALLY. Not what the media told them, but what they really knew.
It got me thinking, and it honestly got me worried about how, although at least in America (and other countries too, possibly), Israel is such a hot button issue, where everyone needs to have an opinion (or so they feel). But most of these opinions are unfounded, or are spoon fed to them by the media. So I'd like to try and give people a bit of a broader background when it comes to Israel.
I am half Israeli. My father was from Haifa, and my mother was from New York. My father moved to America when he was 28 to attend college here. Although I've never personally lived in Israel, I know many people who do, and have been there at least a dozen times, the past two times since this January.

Now, I'd just like to emphasize this. This is not a discussion about religion. I know in a lot of ways it cannot be avoided, and it probably will come up. I'd personally like to stay away from that issue for many reasons, but mostly because (a) religion is a very strong issue for many people, and I have no wish to offend anyone, and (b) I was raised Jewish. I'm currently an atheist, but unfortunately, some people will claim that I am biased. So I really can talk about the religious aspects of it, but I'd rather not be accused of whatever.
But really, I'm willing to answer any questions. Social, political, economic, religious, etc. I may not have all the answers, I do not claim to. If I do not know the answer to your question, I will let you know. I won't pretend that I do if I don't.

Anyway, I think that about covers it. To kick this thing off, here's a little video I saw recently.
[youtube]qwKk-jITBCk[/youtube]

Edit: Sorry about the weird ending music. Its a very famous Pro-Israel song

 

[Furai]

ISRAEL 4 LIFE. Seriosuly this would be a good thread for me to kick into, as I live here~

 

[kittenmay]

Hahaha well, please feel free to join!
I didn't know that anyone on Smogon lived in Israel. Where exactly?

 

[moonbound]

Israel is easily the most westernized country in the Mid-East, as well as being an important ally to America, the UK, and other "western" countries.
Not to discredit your point at all, but I've seen videos like the one in the op that show Americans who can't name 25 of the 50 states. A problem I have noticed is the confusion between ethnic Jews and religious Jews, and the unfortunately common assumption that the two are always the same.

 

[mien]

The title of your Youtube clip is misleading, it doesn't show any misconceptions at all.

 

[kittenmay]

Oh I know. That's exactly the point of this thread. To educate!
And part of the idea of free press is that they don't have to go along with whatever the government thinks. And they don't.

Edit: The clip shows some common information, and asks random people questions about them. I think that the people thinking that 30% of Israelis ride camels is a misconception.
But call the video what you will.

 

[mien]

A common misconception is a generally accepted idea people have over a particular subject that turns out to be wrong.

These people however neither have the right or the wrong idea, in fact they have no idea whatsoever and are just guessing the answers to those questions. If it really was a misconception everyone would be giving the same "wrong" answer which clearly isn't the case here.

An example of a real common misconception would be asking people on the streets to describe viking helmets. Anyone will say that they have 2 horns even though that's not the case.

 

[Kromlech]

Asking Americans anything is usually going to end up with hilarious answers that go on a Tonight Show clip reel.

Anyway, I have a few Q's:

1. Is there compulsive military service for male citizens upon reaching a certain age? If so, what age and how long does it last? Are there any women in the Israeli military?

2. Is the average Israeli infantryman as badass as the many macro images around the internet would have one believe?

3. Is it safe to assume the country as a whole is super conservative about most issues in debate in the US, based on the religious focus of the county? (gays in the military, gay marriage, gay adoption, abortion, and other cliche 8th grade research topics like that) In what direction do the laws pertaining to these issues tend to sway?

4. Is "A Serious Man" really that good of a movie?

Sure I could look these up but I'd rather hear it from live sources if possible.

 

[TheMantyke]

Did anyone else click on this thread half expecting we were doing the a rabian forum thing again?

 

[kittenmay]

Okay, fair enough mien.

Kromlech:
1. There is compulsive military service for both male and female citizens upon graduating high school. (It is possible to get out of the service through religious means). It is a 3 year service, unless you are promoted, which then requires you to stay longer. After your service, you are on reserve until a certain age (I'm sorry, I don't know what the age is). Which means you go and help out at certain times.

2. I'm not quite sure what you mean! Haha

3. Absolutely not. Israel is one of the only Middle Eastern countries where homosexuality isn't a crime. Gays are protected by anti-discrimination laws, and Tel Aviv (one of the major cities) is considered the "gay capital of the world." Gay adoption is legal as well.
I'm afraid I don't know much about the abortion issues in Israel. I know that it is legal under certain circumstances right now, and that there is heated debate between the religious and the secular sects in the government.
Israel in general (in my opinion) is a very "left" government (in American terms). They are very liberal, especially in comparison to other Middle Eastern countries.

4. I have no idea :P I don't watch movies.

 

[Ray Jay]

What is your opinion on the notion that the extreme orthodox Jews are essentially mooching off the government (you hinted at it with they can get out of military service, and from my trip to Israel it seemed like they get out of a lot more than just that)?

2. Is the average Israeli infantryman as badass as the many macro images around the internet would have one believe?

Yes. When walking around Jerusalem, we took pictures with the most legit guys in uniform I've ever seen.

 

[Kaxtar]

1. Is there compulsive military service for male citizens upon reaching a certain age? If so, what age and how long does it last? Are there any women in the Israeli military?

2. Is the average Israeli infantryman as badass as the many macro images around the internet would have one believe?

3. Is it safe to assume the country as a whole is super conservative about most issues in debate in the US, based on the religious focus of the county? (gays in the military, gay marriage, gay adoption, abortion, and other cliche 8th grade research topics like that) In what direction do the laws pertaining to these issues tend to sway?

I can field a few of these questions, thanks hebrew school!

1: Yes, BOTH guys and girls have to enter the military at age 18, guys for three years and girls for two. And the Israeli military has many women.

2: I suppose, though that is a really subjective question. Their training is pretty top notch (they train with navy SEALs for instance, and actually teach each other), most have lots of experience in special ops. I've met a few soldiers, and their personal stories are pretty badass if you ask me.

3: The country is in fact not conservative. Few Israeli Jews are orthodox, and even the ones that are tend to be pretty accepting of other lifestyles. In my experience, Judaism has done a pretty nice job in general of adapting to the 21st century and adopting more liberal policies. I have no clue about the laws, however.

 

[6-Dimension]

It is possible to get out of the service through religious means

Just to clarify for the asker, orthodox Jews are not required to join the military. More orthodox Jews were killed in the Holocaust than any other kind (due to their being easily identified), leaving less of them than other sorts of Jewish. As such, the Israeli government believes that the orthodox Jews' duty is to pass on their faith and make sure it does not die out.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Good thread. I'm certainly appreciative of this-seems like a constructive and civil thread that will be fairly informative!


How exactly do Israelis see the United States? Especially on the political field.

Is it true that more Republicans support Israel than Democrats, despite Israel's left-wing leanings?

What's the general status of Israeli politics right now?

 

[Eiganjo]

ok some questions kittymay!

1) What would be considered Israeli cuisine?
2) What is required for food to be considered kosher(not exactly israel, but hey, jews make up the largest part of Israel I suppose)?
3) Besides Jerusalem, what would be good tourist spots when going to Israel?

 

[askaninjask]

I am a jew and that video makes me want to punch the person who was asking those questions. Hey, look, someone's asking loaded questions about <TOPIC> and people are getting it wrong!??! Unbelievable!

Those people have no reason to care about Israel and know JUST as little about any other foreign country you could have asked about.

 

[kittenmay]

What is your opinion on the notion that the extreme orthodox Jews are essentially mooching off the government (you hinted at it with they can get out of military service, and from my trip to Israel it seemed like they get out of a lot more than just that)?

I am very anti the fact that extremely orthodox Jews are mooching off the government. Actually, the military service doesn't bother me, because "normal" Jews can use that excuse as well. However, extremely orthodox Jews are paid a small stipend, which supports them while they learn all day instead of supporting themselves and their families with jobs. True, they stipend is VERY small, barely enough to live on, but I think the principle is there, which bothers me greatly. And I know I'm not the only one who it bothers.

How exactly do Israelis see the United States? Especially on the political field.

Is it true that more Republicans support Israel than Democrats, despite Israel's left-wing leanings?

What's the general status of Israeli politics right now?

The first and last questions I'm afraid I'm not well equipped enough to answer. I know that some Israelis see America as the shining land of opportunity that it was known for. I'm not sure what the dominant opinions are. And I know that one of the main issues in Israeli politics right now is the decision of having a "two state solution", back to the 1948 borders created by the UN, instead of the current 1967, post 6 Day War borders. Other than that, I'm not sure.

As for the American politics, I'm afraid that yes, Republicans tend to support Israel more at the moment. Democrats are more concerned with internal affairs (I'm not blaming them for that, but I think they tend to overlook other concerns). However, like with any large group of people, there are individuals with their own opinions.
A lot of Jews don't like Obama for various reasons, but I personally believe he's done very well by Israel.

ok some questions kittymay!

1) What would be considered Israeli cuisine?
2) What is required for food to be considered kosher(not exactly israel, but hey, jews make up the largest part of Israel I suppose)?
3) Besides Jerusalem, what would be good tourist spots when going to Israel?

1) Well, it depends who you ask. I think the widespread accepted standard is hummus, fallafel, techina, schwarma. Those are the most common.
2) Actually, most Israelis are secular! But kosher is a HUGE discussion. To make broad sweeps, no shellfish, no fish without scales, no bottom feeding fish. You cannot mix meat and dairy (so no cheeseburgers). Meat has to be killed a certain way in order to be eaten. No pigs. Only certain types of birds are allowed. I think that's the general idea.
3) That's a bit of an opinion question. But for me personally, I think Masada is great, Ein Gedi, Be'er Sheva, Eilat, Mitzpeh Ramon, Haifa (specifically the Baha'i Gardens), Ceserea, Har Hermon, the Galil...there's just a ton of places.



askaninjask: The issue that I brought up is that Israel IS a hot media topic, and its a big thing for America. Most people DO have opinions about Israel, more than they do about, say Russia or Brazil, to give two foreign countries. But people tend to make uninformed opinions about Israel because its so prevalent in the media.

 

[billymills]

Do you think the american government and American politicians pay too much attention to Israel. If not, why should they. If so, do you think they should?

Do you support a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine, and which borders do you think would work best?

Do you think Israel is aggravating the problem or actually trying to come to a compromise?

Also, a lot more people have opinions on Russia than on Israel. People don't have a huge opinion on Brazil because it isn't constantly discussed by the media.

 

[Kaxtar]

Do you think the american government and American politicians pay too much attention to Israel. If not, why should they. If so, do you think they should?

Do you support a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine, and which borders do you think would work best?

Do you think Israel is aggravating the problem or actually trying to come to a compromise?

1: I think that America pays it about the attention it should, though if I had to go one way or the other, I'd say it is a tad much. I think a lot of it is justified, given Israel's strategic importance (close to Iran, close to OPEC), economic advancement (Americans care more about rich than poor countries as a general rule), it's democratic and Western-friendly political views, and the fact that it is an interesting country overall (jewish, surrounded by hostile arabs, mostly white in the mid east, etc.).

2: I personally support two-state democratic countries. Both religions have somewhat legit claims to the land, and it just seems most fair in general. As for the borders, that's a tougher question. I would go for the post-67 war becuase of the Israeli presence in those areas, the fact that you would not have to divide up Jerusalem (keep in mind that as of now, Israel is very generous in terms of opening up Jerusalem to Arabs, probably more than a democratic Islamic nation would be), and becuase Israel "deserves" those acquired lands imo (the arab nations were the aggressors in 67, they shouldn't be crying that they lost land in a war that they created). That last bit is perhaps a tad harsh, but that's my honest opinion.

3: Israel is doing more than it has to. If it wanted, it could realistically use it's military might to subdue it's neighbors. It doesn't have to compromise for anything, it won those lands in a war. ofc, they're not trying their hardest, but given what they could (and should, some would argue) do, I see it as being quite generous.

 

[Glen]

when i was visiting my family in singapore recently i found it interesting that its military is modeled quite heavily on the israeli system; singapore even had israeli military advisors sent over surreptitiously at its inception. kind of funny considering malaysia refuses to acknowledge israel's existence.

complete non-sequitur, but when i was in asia four years ago i met a guy from israel who had just finished his compulsory military service, and he had just flown into japan from nepal. he said a lot of israelis go to nepal after their service, any idea why that is?

 

[mattj]

Do you think the american government and American politicians pay too much attention to Israel. If not, why should they. If so, do you think they should?

Personally I'm glad we do what we do for Israel. Obviously there are legitimate criticisms to be leveled against Israel, but I don't think anybody can reasonably argue against the fact that they are our one solid, sane ally in that part of the world. As a country, we do have a lot of interest and a lot to gain in their well being.

 

[cookie]

is it true that israeli mcdonalds franchises deep fry foreskins and sell them as a snack and the religious aspect of circumcision is simply an excuse for a business opportunity

i believe it is called the "mcmohel"

 

[Tortferngatr]

is it true that israeli mcdonalds franchises deep fry foreskins and sell them as a snack and the religious aspect of circumcision is simply an excuse for a business opportunity

i believe it is called the "mcmohel"

Cookie's law of a forum: as a thread gets longer, the probability of it being derailed by a religion argument approaches 1

Let's avert this ASAP.

 

[Minwu]

How volatile/scary is the situation between Israel and Palestine? Why?





Can I have a McMohel?

 

[iDunno]

You know i bet the guy that filmed that video interviewed like 90 people and chose the 8 or 9 dumbest ones he or she could find. Those people are just way too stupid to be the American majority.

EDIT: oh wait...


Also how much are Israelis actually afraid of Iran. (I'm under the impression that their politicians shit their pants whenever they think about it)