np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

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I don't know why having no recovery is such a point against magnezone, especially with its slew of resistance, pretty respectable bulk and just how popular wish passing in is UU, since the most popular walls rely on wish over standard recovery moves. It resists stealth rock and spikes take a bunch of time to get up and its super risky to spend that much turns with things like defog around unless you know the hazard remover is gone. But the same is true for basically everything grounded, unless you have a completely flying/levitate team, spikes are a bad thing to be around.

Maybe it's just me but saying something is bad for something that applies to pretty much anything.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I'm not hip and poppin with trendy sets, mind sharing?
Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def (or SpD if you're into that) / 4 SpA
Bold (or Calm if you're into that) Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Volt Switch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Goes in like a champ! Also works as a useful backup check to Victini, Suicune (It kinda beats you one-on-one if it starts racking up CMs however), most Electric-types, most Grass-types lacking Earthquake, etc.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
i think everyone is underestimating magnezone. if the magnezone user is using a specs set and has no good response to ground types i do not believe they are using magnezone as effectively as they could.

there are also no special walls that can counter magnezone in UU right now including Snorlax because defensive Snorlax doesn't have room for EQ and the majority of the walls lose one on one as well which is very troubling. magnezone is putting an unfair burden on stall teams in this sense, in my opinion.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
i think everyone is underestimating magnezone. if the magnezone user is using a specs set and has no good response to ground types i do not believe they are using magnezone as effectively as they could.

there are also no special walls that can counter magnezone in UU right now including Snorlax because defensive Snorlax doesn't have room for EQ and the majority of the walls lose one on one as well which is very troubling. magnezone is putting an unfair burden on stall teams in this sense, in my opinion.
How does Snorlax not have room for EQ? Defensive sets, I can understand. Offensive/AV sets can easily stuff that into their movepool. Unless they're hellbent on running Seed Bomb to deal with those annoying bulky waters they can't 2HKO with it anyway (except Swampert/Gastrodon of course)
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
you misunderstand me because i wasn't clear, sorry

what i meant was snorlax can run EQ but not on defensive sets usually (maybe it can?) and stall teams use defensive sets obviously so stall isn't going to have a good response to Magnezone using anything in the tier. even so with EQ Snorlax is worn down so easily with low speed and only Rest as recovery (and wish doesn't heal him too much, usually about 40 or 45% max). offensive sets are worn down so easily, by a single volt switch and one sr switch in. i never considered offensive snorlax a wall, to me its a tank. but using subjective terminology made up by teenagers (which i am too!) who try to sort themselves into classes on an internet forums probably made my post more unclear.

a single pokemon shouldnt give an otherwise very viable entire playstyle nothing but trouble while still maintaining great utility against all other playstyles (everyone agrees Magnezone is great, just not whether it should be banned or not)

yes i also think togekiss should have been suspected last generation but at least you could use Zapdos on stall teams to deal with it
 
you misunderstand me because i wasn't clear, sorry

what i meant was snorlax can run EQ but not on defensive sets usually (maybe it can?) and stall teams use defensive sets obviously so stall isn't going to have a good response to Magnezone using anything in the tier. even so with EQ Snorlax is worn down so easily with low speed and only Rest as recovery (and wish doesn't heal him too much, usually about 40 or 45% max). offensive sets are worn down so easily, by a single volt switch and one sr switch in. i never considered offensive snorlax a wall, to me its a tank. but using subjective terminology made up by teenagers (which i am too!) who try to sort themselves into classes on an internet forums probably made my post more unclear.

a single pokemon shouldnt give an otherwise very viable entire playstyle nothing but trouble while still maintaining great utility against all other playstyles (everyone agrees Magnezone is great, just not whether it should be banned or not)

yes i also think togekiss should have been suspected last generation but at least you could use Zapdos on stall teams to deal with it
Aren't the nidos much more difficult for stall to counter? Even then they are allowed in the tier. And, they don't need themselves to be locked in one move to wallbreak.

PS : Quite new to the tier, so please don't bash me if i am wrong?
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
firstly i am probably one of the most ban happy pokemon players in the game and wouldn't mind seeing either or both nidos suspected at all

second they are not on the same level as magnezone in my opinion because they are frankly much weaker and suddenly things like Mew, Umbreon, Suicune can counter or at the very least respond to them one on one them rather adequately in most circumstances. sure they can run moves to beat them (even then they still lose one on one unlike magnezone) but try and understand what my post is saying.

i am saying magnezone is badly messing up standard stall teams with a specs set because it has no uu counters in most any sense of the word. the nido's cant boast that with any set at all.

the choice lock is rather insignificant against stall teams because it is extremely easy to find openings against them. eventually they will have to bring in a florges to heal something or maybe a forry to set up hazards or a trevenant to spinblock. magnezone has easy opportunity there to do work.
 
I have been running a SpDef P2 with HP Ground, Recover, Thunder Wave and Tri Attack to counter Maggy. Running 29 speed IV to outslow Mag to avoid Analytic as well as getting an Analytic HP Ground off thanks to Trace. This P2 worked pretty well and can do work outside of KOing Maggy, but HP Ground has very few utility outside of that.
 
I have been running a SpDef P2 with HP Ground, Recover, Thunder Wave and Tri Attack to counter Maggy. Running 29 speed IV to outslow Mag to avoid Analytic as well as getting an Analytic HP Ground off thanks to Trace. This P2 worked pretty well and can do work outside of KOing Maggy, but HP Ground has very few utility outside of that.
Dosn't that sound like going out of your way to handle something?

Not to mention, P2 not stopping Volt switches do it zone still does not care if you're a counter. This gives the opponent more than enough opportunities to switch in something that can threaten P2 by strong fighting stab or by knock off, since it needs eviolite to deal with magnezone at all. Not to mention when the build becomes a popular answer for magnezone, they're just going to switch out or continue volt switching against P2. Should also mention that analytic HP ground does not OHKO magnezone in the full HP and just falls short of OHKOing the 104 HP sets. It would definitely put the magnezone in a bad spot with hazards for sure, but it would put your P2 in a bad spot just soaking up two choice specs hits, the first one also being boosted by analytic.

I really don't know how successful you've been with this set but if you've managed to actually net some magnezones with it, good job!
 
Dosn't that sound like going out of your way to handle something?

Not to mention, P2 not stopping Volt switches do it zone still does not care if you're a counter. This gives the opponent more than enough opportunities to switch in something that can threaten P2 by strong fighting stab or by knock off, since it needs eviolite to deal with magnezone at all. Not to mention when the build becomes a popular answer for magnezone, they're just going to switch out or continue volt switching against P2. Should also mention that analytic HP ground does not OHKO magnezone in the full HP and just falls short of OHKOing the 104 HP sets. It would definitely put the magnezone in a bad spot with hazards for sure, but it would put your P2 in a bad spot just soaking up two choice specs hits, the first one also being boosted by analytic.

I really don't know how successful you've been with this set but if you've managed to actually net some magnezones with it, good job!
Well I also have a Swampert in my team and they mostly go for HP Grass on their first switch. P2 can take 4 Analytic T.bolts so that is fine. I also have Aromatisse to soak up Knock Off and HJKs aimed at P2 so I am mostly fine, and even though Aromatisse is a free switchin to Maggy, I can use Protect to scout for what it locks itself into. HP Ground on P2 might be going out of my way to handle something but better than not handling it at all. It isn't like P2 needs Ice Beam to hit any Dragons in particular as they are mostly my Aromatisse switchins. That moveslot for me is pretty free and if I can handle Magnezone with it why not? And don't tell me I lose out on Shadow Ball because the most common Ghost in the tier is Chandelure which P2 walls (and HP Ground hits too so that is a bonus). Cofag walls this P2 but hey, it is a pivot not a wallbreaker, so that is fine.

I don't really think Magnezone really restricts my teambuilding process that much (1 free moveslot handles it? Yes please) but that is just me. Not to mention that literally half the tier checks it
 
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Remind me again why careful hippo isn't considered a magnezone counter? It has plenty of bulk, elec immunity, reliable recovery, is friggen amazing on stall and even balanced teams, and is all around a pretty cool mon being able to pull things off like swapping into megaman's HP grass and still having enough to threaten it out / slack off stall.
 
Remind me again why careful hippo isn't considered a magnezone counter? It has plenty of bulk, elec immunity, reliable recovery, is friggen amazing on stall and even balanced teams, and is all around a pretty cool mon being able to pull things off like swapping into megaman's HP grass and still having enough to threaten it out / slack off stall.
Even fully SpDef Hippowdon cannot switch into Flash Cannon and HP Grass (they deal the same damage) due to Analytic making it a 2hko, and if you are speed creeping Hippo to outspeed next turn you would lose too much bulk.
 
I don't really think Magnezone really restricts my teambuilding process that much (1 free moveslot handles it? Yes please) but that is just me. Not to mention that literally half the tier checks it
you say it handles maggy but I really don't see how P2 alone is handling it. And I REALLY don't know what proygon you're using because analytic specs T-bolt has a high chance of 2HKO (both boosted of course) after stealth rocks. Meaning that if P2 is forced out once (takes a volt switch into something that wont let it recover, or the slew of things in the tier that have knock off. The next time it switches into magnezone (unless it gets a wish pass) then its dead meat in most cases. While I can see it kind of dealing with some magnezones I don't see which ones are going to stay in on a P2 taking less than half since P2 can recover stall and even ones not running HP ground can chip away with shadow ball or tri attack or whatever.

You went kinda out of your way to deal with something but I don't really see it consistently being an answer for magnezone though the game, just based off how common knock off is and the many popular things that force P2 right out and can work up volturn synergy forcing you to switch the half game.

assuming you don't also have a ground type to block volt switches, magnezones will most likely do this. (which would bring your one move slot counter into 2 whole pokemon counter) Personally using magnezone I love to set up situations where the opponent has to switch or lose a pokemon. And then volt switch away from any potential non-ground counter, if there is one however, I'll take a risk at HP ground if my opponent is switchy, it comes down to prediction and magnezone is never really on the bad side unless hes locked in by a magnezone countering magnezone (fast with HP ground) but that still takes two pokemon to set up (inefficient magnezone and a ground type)

To address hazards once more; one of the main reasons I don't think hazards or spikes are a very large deal to magnezone is that hes so efficient at theatening most hazard setters in the tier on its own. Once they're gone, all you need to do is defog (or spin) This is on top of already being resistant to stealth rock which is much more popular than spikes because of all the fire types and flying types that are hit harder than they would be by spikes. Not to mention stealth rock's superior distribution.

Sp.Def mew is 2HKO by T-bolt and very harmed by volt-switch, mew can knock off specs but that does nothing to set up hazards. The predicted knock off could be abused by a switch in. (openings for megadoom are yummy, among other things) Since mew has not much else to do on magnezone, burning is counter productive and hazard setting would make him dead.

Nidoqueen is 2HKO'd by flash cannon and the way it's speed is creeping it out speeds non-invested queen.

Foretress can be 2HKO even by flash cannon unless it runs specially defensive. Tbolt OHKO's p. defensive overcoat sets.

Aerodactyl is OHKO'd by anything other than HP Grass

Even sp.def MAggron is 2HKO'd by Tbolt, if it hasn't evolved yet, the only chance it has is sturdy on a clean switch in.

for the sake of the post size I'll stop here but the list goes on and on, some of the most popular spikes and rock setters shiver with magnezone around. even if I don't believe residual hazard damage especially from spikes matters all that much in balancing when it affects everything grounded. Does something need to be ground/steel/fighting +levitate to get banned?
 
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Even fully SpDef Hippowdon cannot switch into Flash Cannon and HP Grass (they deal the same damage) due to Analytic making it a 2hko, and if you are speed creeping Hippo to outspeed next turn you would lose too much bulk.
So basically even having hippo on your team turns it into a coin flip. You either predict the tbolt/volt switch and go to hippo or predict the flash cannon/hp grass and go to.... whatever the heck resists that (I'm sure there's something but my memory on type matchups is foggy)
 
Remind me again why careful hippo isn't considered a magnezone counter? It has plenty of bulk, elec immunity, reliable recovery, is friggen amazing on stall and even balanced teams, and is all around a pretty cool mon being able to pull things off like swapping into megaman's HP grass and still having enough to threaten it out / slack off stall.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 247-292 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's why.

It's true that Hippowdon pressures the Magnezone user to make predictions, and that can go either way, but counter's a pretty strong word, and Hippowdon is not that.
 
Then you have things like Rotom H and C who doubly resist either STAB and the rest of the moveset, but, of course, they don't have spammable instant recovery. They could Trick it a scarf at best, and Rotom H might do a bit with Overheat, but eh.
 
Ah shoot, time to bring chesnaught back as a crawdaunt counter... sigh

Seriously though, crawdaunt is pretty op. All it needs is water and dark coverage and everythinv will get hit hard. Although it is a pretty reasonable check to mega doom with flame charge...
 
If they drop soon enough, we'll have some fighting priority to help revenge Crawdaunt:

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 252-299 (94 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 203-242 (75.7 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As for some walls:

Crawdaunt will have to pack Aerial Ace to get past Chesnaught.
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 224-265 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Poliwrath: 146-172 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4+ Atk Poliwrath Circle Throw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 156-186 (58.2 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Poliwrath remains a hard check to LO Crawdaunt. Note that the nature is Adamant; you can run Impish with some EVs transferred into SpD if you desire more bulk.

But if we have to run these mons to check both LO and DD sets, would it be ban-worthy?
 
Crawdaunt is crazily powerful with all the buffs it gets this gen. Aqua Jet to fix its speed, Crabhammer and Knock Off buff for good STABs, Switcheroo to cripple walls, all the while retaining good boosting moves in DD and SD as well as coverage moves in Superpower and (lol) Aerial Ace. Its SpA isn't shabby as well so it can even run Ice Beam for coverage as it doesn't mind sacrificing its paper thin special bulk anyway. It is like the perfect weapon to dismantle stall, and thanks to priority in Aqua Jet it can do work against offensive teams as well. As much as I love using this thing, I think it deserves to be banned.
 
Aerial ace wasn't considered that bad because superpowers attack drop makes 2 SE super powers and 2 Neutral Crab hammers do the same damage.

Not to mention it smacks anything decently hard that tries to resist his dual stab aside from like Poliwraith whom is still hit pretty hard by it (or knock off) considering hes got no reliable recovery outside of the rest talk set that wont always go your way.
 
Crawdaunt is a very strong pokemon and has very few counters and defensive checks. And, most of these are either pretty obscure like poliwrath or can be worked around with coverage moves like Chesnaught. It cripples most of its switchins with STAB adaptability boosted Knock Off, which is one oe the best attacks in the game. Crabhammer hits just as stupidly hard. It also has Aqua Jet for revenge killing and allows it to do work against offense. It can also go for Swords Dance or Dragon Dance, although it is difficult for him due to his frailness. So, due to Crawdaunt's immensely powerful attacks and lack of good counters, i think it should be quickbanned to BL.
 
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