np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Miscellaneous]

It's interesting to note that the difference between latias and latios's special attack is less significant than the difference between deoxys N and deoxys A's.

edit: This is also true with ratios. Latios's special attacks are 12% more powerful than latias, while deoxys A's are 15% more powerful than deoxys N's (assuming timid, max SpA for all pokemon).

Although you are statistically correct, it's not quite like that. Deoxys N to A attack is the difference between very high attack and ridiculously high attack. Deoxys A packs more of a punch, but Deoxys N probably scores similar KOs with SE moves. The difference between 110 and 130 attack is felt more I feel.

Latias is surprisingly bulky, especially physically. "Frail" may not be a word used to describe Latios, but with the powerhouses now it is actually quite accurate, especially relative to Latias.

Latios can run the exact same CM set as Latias with similar bulk and the ability to hit even harder. And quite frankly, they are both countered by the same handful of pokemon (Latios even less). I would and have personally used CM Latios over Latias and it just seems more effective overall.

The bulk is not "similar", latias is bulky and latios is not. Latias being able to survive STAB dark- and ghost- moves suddenly makes it quite frankly scary in certain situations.
Latios at +1 with a life orb does pack quite a punch, however Latios is not a truly defensive pokemon. CM is a move that works best for bulky attackers, and although Latios benefits from added attack, this is a crude boost in comparison to another frail sweeper nasty plotting or indeed Latias CM'ing and becoming both bulky and powerful. i.e. You're not hitting the fully potential of a bulky CM sweeper if any priority move can instantly knock Latios into red and ~ 1 life orb attack away from dying. And the fact that Latias has that extra bulk is precisely what Jibaku mentioned with "overall more net damage".

Latios only truly outshines Latias with a Life orb set + 4 attacks or choice specs. And this is why I don't know people are complaining about Latios because with DM it becomes set-up fodder and without DM it doesn't hit nearly as hard as other special sweepers in OU. That's without even getting into all the kind of checks, priority and abusers that can stomp all over Latios. People think it's broken because they have already convinced themselves.

I really don't think anything in OU needs major addressing.

 

[Katakiri]

Latios can run the exact same CM set as Latias with similar bulk and the ability to hit even harder. And quite frankly, they are both countered by the same handful of pokemon (Latios even less). I would and have personally used CM Latios over Latias and it just seems more effective overall.

Actually if you give up Refresh/Reflect for Reflect Type on Latias, she becomes far more of a jerk to counter as she CMs. 350 Speed that copies your type before you hit it while keeping Levitate, can be devastating if used right. A little gimmicky, but it works pretty well in the current metagame considering the hilarious lack of Superpower on Tyranitar.

*shrugs* Just one of the little things I find fun.

 

[capefeather]

oh god female anticipation eevee... this is gonna hurt

Choice Specs is not the problem, because Choice Specs does not break other monsters.
Draco Meteor is not the problem, because Draco Meteor does not break other monsters.

"Latios is not the problem, because Latios does not break other items/moves."

At this point, you're probably going to have to agree with something similar to my argument anyway, at least subconsciously.

 

[jormungand201]

Chomp and And defiantly Blaziken both have other abilities that don't make them uber. I don't understand what is so difficult. Just have team builder warn you that Pokemon+Ability is banned the same reason Wobb and Wynaut were banned in gen 4

 

[asdfrozen]

Are we going to ban Acupressure?

 

[Master Bane]

Chomp and And defiantly Blaziken both have other abilities that don't make them uber. I don't understand what is so difficult. Just have team builder warn you that Pokemon+Ability is banned the same reason Wobb and Wynaut were banned in gen 4

First, Garchomp has only one ability, as its dreamworld ability is unreleased. Second, this has been mentioned numerous times throughout this thread and many others, banning ability+pokemon combination opens the way for similar bans on other pokemon. For example, Darkrai is likely not broken without Dark Void and Nasty Plot, Rayquaza without DD and Outrage might fit in OU, ect.

 

[Matthew]

I've always have been more scared of Latias than Latios. Latias runs bulky sets to a monsterous degree, whether it be Roar CM or a bulky two attack CM set with Dragon Pulse Hp fire (or filler) and recover just honestly is threatening. I was abusing a team around Roar CM Latias earlier this week, people don't prepare for it because they figure that Latias is somehow Latios-lite. Latios shouldn't even really be considered a suspect, Latios can fire super powerful attacks for one turn, but then becomes suspect fodder. I 100% agree with Jibaku in this situation.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Are we going to ban Acupressure?

Too much luck is required to actually acquire the evasiveness boost.

oh god female anticipation eevee... this is gonna hurt

Why? I assume it has something to do with Espeon.

 

[jormungand201]

First, Garchomp has only one ability, as its dreamworld ability is unreleased. Second, this has been mentioned numerous times throughout this thread and many others, banning ability+pokemon combination opens the way for similar bans on other pokemon. For example, Darkrai is likely not broken without Dark Void and Nasty Plot, Rayquaza without DD and Outrage might fit in OU, ect.

With the release of Magic Bounce Espeon, i doubt Chomp wont be in the near future.

If you go back a page or 2, you will see how ridiculous the slippery slope argument is. With proper moderation, there wont be a massive can of worms that come from the banning of abused ability+good pokemon. I think the darkrai/rayq example is ridiculous and if you think that the majority of the people on this site will allow such a thing, ever, then i don't know what to say.

Like i said before, Wobb was in the same boat gen. 4. Explain why we allowed the banning then, and not now?

 

[Yoshiken]

How was Wobbuffet in the same boat even slightly? Wobbuffet, IIRC, was OU for a good part, and then got Tickle which pushed it up because it+Scizor could trap & KO Skarmory. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong there, going by what I've heard from others on this.)

If that -is- the case, then it was Wobbuffet that was banned, not the Wobbuffet+Tickle combination, so that's an argument against you.
And if that isn't the case, either way, it was Wobbuffet that was banned (and you can't argue Pokemon+Ability in Gen4 since nothing like that existed - or, hopefully, ever will. ._.;; )

 

[Master Bane]

With the release of Magic Bounce Espeon, i doubt Chomp wont be in the near future.

Why? We have had no updates to the dreamworld apart from a few events and the majority of them are still unreleased. Garchomp could become available in a few weeks, a few months, a few years, or even never. Right now Dreamworld Garchomp is in pretty much the same boat as Flare Blitz Flareon.

If you go back a page or 2, you will see how ridiculous the slippery slope argument is. With proper moderation, there wont be a massive can of worms that come from the banning of abused ability+good pokemon. I think the darkrai/rayq example is ridiculous and if you think that the majority of the people on this site will allow such a thing, ever, then i don't know what to say.

Exactly, the community isn't going to allow such a thing, ever. There's really no difference in a Pokemon+Ability combo and a Pokemon+Item or Move combo.

Like i said before, Wobb was in the same boat gen. 4. Explain why we allowed the banning then, and not now?

Wobbufett was simply banned in generation 4, just like Blaziken is now.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

From what I remember in Gen IV, Wobbuffet was auto-banned along with the usual set of Pokes (i.e. Mewtwo, Lugia, etc.), and then on Shoddy Battle they decided to test Deoxys-E and Wobbuffet, which they did. And I think at first the response to Wobbuffet was "Hey, he's not actually that bad after all", and then people found out about that Tickle strategy.

 

[Matthew]

How was Wobbuffet in the same boat even slightly? Wobbuffet, IIRC, was OU for a good part, and then got Tickle which pushed it up because it+Scizor could trap & KO Skarmory. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong there, going by what I've heard from others on this.)

If that -is- the case, then it was Wobbuffet that was banned, not the Wobbuffet+Tickle combination, so that's an argument against you.
And if that isn't the case, either way, it was Wobbuffet that was banned (and you can't argue Pokemon+Ability in Gen4 since nothing like that existed - or, hopefully, ever will. ._.;; )

Wobb was banned because he was a ridiculously powerful support pokemon. Encore the wrong move and a pokemon has the opportunity to set up and sweep your team and there is nothing, not one damn thing, you can do about it. Wobb has no counters -- you cannot switch out of it. Wobb was also a very unique case, where it wasn't very used in OU but it was still very broken. Complex bans, most likely, will happen eventually, I feel like with the route we are taking with the tiering process there's just no way to avoid them. However if we do allow them then there will be heavy regulation about them. That being said, stop complaining about Blaziken not being broken without Speed Boost, without Speed Boost Blaziken wouldn't even be that good (yeah, probably top-tier UU, but not OU, no way). This isn't about complex bans at the moment, they are of no issue. Until then I'd like everyone to just think about pokemon as a whole. This isn't "Sand Veil breaks evasion clause," this is Garchomp can abuse the hell out of sand and even without sand is still a menace.

 

[Benlisted]

@ those ridiculing slippery slope: Anyone who has been here the last few months should know that one of the biggest problems Aldaron's proposal caused was not the slow slide into a ton more complex bans, but the huge clamour for an inumerable amount of them because of this, which makes threads like these somewhat pointless for pages at a time because people are crying out for Speed Boost+Blaziken bans. Waylaying the discussion aspect of the suspect process is as much a negative consequence of complex bans as anything else - if we complex ban more this will simply increase and become more of an issue.

 

[awyp]

I've always have been more scared of Latias than Latios. Latias runs bulky sets to a monsterous degree, whether it be Roar CM or a bulky two attack CM set with Dragon Pulse Hp fire (or filler) and recover just honestly is threatening. I was abusing a team around Roar CM Latias earlier this week, people don't prepare for it because they figure that Latias is somehow Latios-lite. Latios shouldn't even really be considered a suspect, Latios can fire super powerful attacks for one turn, but then becomes suspect fodder. I 100% agree with Jibaku in this situation.

I agree dramatically the only set that Latios can run better then Latias for the most part would be the choice set which is either Scarf / Spec other then that Latias would be used for many more things, due to it's bulkyness I've been scared shitless recently if it gets enough calm minds with maybe any screens up, and carrying any defense EVs it's a real challenge, plus with all the moves that resets anything as example refresh, roar, etc just makes it a more versatile Pokemon.

 

[Alice]

How was Wobbuffet in the same boat even slightly? Wobbuffet, IIRC, was OU for a good part, and then got Tickle which pushed it up because it+Scizor could trap & KO Skarmory. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong there, going by what I've heard from others on this.)

If that -is- the case, then it was Wobbuffet that was banned, not the Wobbuffet+Tickle combination, so that's an argument against you.
And if that isn't the case, either way, it was Wobbuffet that was banned (and you can't argue Pokemon+Ability in Gen4 since nothing like that existed - or, hopefully, ever will. ._.;; )

Wobby was banned because both ticklefett and jollyfett made stall unplayable, since they could remove almost every wall from the game efortlessly (in addition to the usual killing/encore-setup stuff).

And to kill skarm you need CB tar + SR support :P

 

[capefeather]

Chomp and And defiantly Blaziken both have other abilities that don't make them uber. I don't understand what is so difficult.

If you go back a page or 2, you will see how ridiculous the slippery slope argument is. With proper moderation, there wont be a massive can of worms that come from the banning of abused ability+good pokemon.

It's extremely difficult. At least, it is if you want to keep the idea of testing everything fairly. The Smogon community is far from capable of managing this with "proper moderation". This is not a jab at this community in particular; it's an inevitable fact that a game community will need to resort to inherent subjective biases, because otherwise it will take way too long to consider every plausible thing.

You think that the examples of nerfed Rayquaza or Darkrai are irrelevant. Why? Considering what VGC has done, those seem like the most relevant examples. You're just heavily biased toward Blaziken because it was bad in the past and it's a starter.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

You're just heavily biased toward Blaziken because it was bad in the past and it's a starter.

Whatever you do, can people please stop saying this, I haven't used Blaziken in almost a decade, and I honestly liked scpetile bettter. This isn't bias, because I fought for the same thing with Luvdisc and I could give a shit about that, and even if it was, it pointed out what we believe is a serious problem in smogon policy.

 

[Glen ^^]

What's the reference to VGC? Iirc the most it limited was certain berries, Soul Dew, and the number of top tier legendaries - nothing to do with actual movesets like most people say when mentioning Rayquaza and Darkrai.
And... it's doubles. Any set of rules/restrictions can work in doubles.


Not that I want Blaze Blaziken back (having him back as a whole would be nice though), it's just an inferior Infernape.
But drawing the line between Ability + Pokemon and Moveset + Pokemon is really simple, I don't get why people like to be so controversal and cogitate crazy stuff.

 

[StarmanXL]

What's the reference to VGC? Iirc the most it limited was certain berries, Soul Dew, and the number of top tier legendaries - nothing to do with actual movesets like most people say when mentioning Rayquaza and Darkrai.
And... it's doubles. Any set of rules/restrictions can work in doubles.

I think it was more the fact that you could have two "ubers" on your team, with level caps, and it was a playable metagame. Also any set of rules/restrictions can work in singles too so I don't quite see your point there.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

What's the reference to VGC? Iirc the most it limited was certain berries, Soul Dew, and the number of top tier legendaries - nothing to do with actual movesets like most people say when mentioning Rayquaza and Darkrai.
And... it's doubles. Any set of rules/restrictions can work in doubles.

Any set of rules/restrictions can work in Singles too. See: Banning Blaziken or Speed Boost+Blaziken.

Not that I want Blaze Blaziken back (having him back as a whole would be nice though), it's just an inferior Infernape.
But drawing the line between Ability + Pokemon and Moveset + Pokemon is really simple, I don't get why people like to be so controversal and cogitate crazy stuff.

Back when Aldaron made that complex ban proposal, the "crazy stuff" people used as an argument were other types of complex bans, such as Ability+Pokémon, or Moveset+Pokémon.

 

[Glen ^^]

It's still completely different issues, restricting movesets and abilities combinations. We're all grown ups to know when to stop, don't we?

It's controversal that Smogon took the more complex path regarding Drizzle by proposing an ability ban instead of a straight Kingdra or Politoed ban and then takes the easier path with Blaziken and, probably, Garchomp.


On rulesets, singles would be unplayable without the many common rules it has, mainly sleep and species. Where in doubles they're obsolete.

 

[reachzero]

@ those ridiculing slippery slope: Anyone who has been here the last few months should know that one of the biggest problems Aldaron's proposal caused was not the slow slide into a ton more complex bans, but the huge clamour for an inumerable amount of them because of this, which makes threads like these somewhat pointless for pages at a time because people are crying out for Speed Boost+Blaziken bans. Waylaying the discussion aspect of the suspect process is as much a negative consequence of complex bans as anything else - if we complex ban more this will simply increase and become more of an issue.

This is a good post, and I agree with the observation. Let me put it out there that I absolutely hate complex bans, and the biggest reason I went along quietly with Aldaron's proposal is that I believed Drizzle would not last another round even without Swift Swim--to be honest, I am still surprised that the voters and I have not yet seen eye-to-eye on that point.

 

[Nkululeko]

@ those ridiculing slippery slope: Anyone who has been here the last few months should know that one of the biggest problems Aldaron's proposal caused was not the slow slide into a ton more complex bans, but the huge clamour for an inumerable amount of them because of this, which makes threads like these somewhat pointless for pages at a time because people are crying out for Speed Boost+Blaziken bans. Waylaying the discussion aspect of the suspect process is as much a negative consequence of complex bans as anything else - if we complex ban more this will simply increase and become more of an issue.

This is a good post, and I agree with the observation. Let me put it out there that I absolutely hate complex bans, and the biggest reason I went along quietly with Aldaron's proposal is that I believed Drizzle would not last another round even without Swift Swim--to be honest, I am still surprised that the voters and I have not yet seen eye-to-eye on that point.

QFT. The slippery slope argument has proven valid and this thread is filled with proof (with people wanting to ban Speed Boost + Blaziken, Sand Veil+Sand Stream, and all.)
I was under the impression that:
1)The Aldaron Proposal was made under the understanding that Smogon would avoid these kinds of bans and recognize rain's broken-ness as a necessary exception
2)Rain with Swift Swim support was broken to a degree that nothing in the metagame currently is
3)The general consensus was that Rain was too powerful and this thread is a good indicator that the level of outcry against rain dwarfed current complaints about SS+SV, SB+Blaziken, etc.

Because of the constant request for complex bans in direct contrast to the understanding behind of the passage of the Aldaron Proposal I suggest these as possible options for the new complex bans ahead of us:
-Make an official stay on complex bans until metagame settles
(as an official policy to end the slope from slicking anymore)
-Repeal the Aldaron Proposal and add Politoed/Drizzle to the Suspect List(not expecting that to go anywhere but I want to say I'm not opposed to it)
-Draw a definite line between appropriate complex bans and tier-nerfing(not my first choice but if nothing else, I'm willing to compromise)
-Institute a set of criteria that necessitate complex bans
(Sounds repetitive but hear me out, I don't like the idea of complex banning but the Aldaron proposal kept Rain as a viable playstyle and encouraged people to find new rain-abusers, Thundurus/Tornadus and Steel Types like Ferrathorn/Jirachi, which in turn added slight diversification to a now more balanced metagame. I'm theorymoning at this point, but if we keep complex bans as a last ditch resort in the suspect process then we could make the criteria match the neccesity of the original one. However, those criteria would need to be instituted at a community level of understanding like the Uber-tier is currently. I'm not entirely behind this idea but I felt the need to explain it as thoroughly as I could)

Either way, the constant pushing for complex bans is somewhat annoying but I see it as proof that the metagame is balanced if no single pokemon are being nominated anymore(outside of Latias because that thing is definitely scary but I don't see it as terribly broken).

P.S. I didn't think Drizzle was going to last another round either...

 

[jormungand201]

It's extremely difficult. At least, it is if you want to keep the idea of testing everything fairly. The Smogon community is far from capable of managing this with "proper moderation". This is not a jab at this community in particular; it's an inevitable fact that a game community will need to resort to inherent subjective biases, because otherwise it will take way too long to consider every plausible thing.


[You think that the examples of nerfed Rayquaza or Darkrai are irrelevant. Why? Considering what VGC has done, those seem like the most relevant examples. You're just heavily biased toward Blaziken because it was bad in the past and it's a starter.

I can understand that. You're probably right in assuming that about the community. People are busy and whatnot. Work, school etc.

The last sentence you wrote was a terrible assumption. Why would you assume that when I clearly support chomp and blaze. my ideal simulator would have all available pokemon that arent broken. I dont agree with the move/item thing, but since blaze and chomp can have alternate abilities, it seems less ridiculous