np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

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November Blue

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I can't see how ferrothorn centralizes the metagame around itself at all.

An offensive threat needs to be surmounted by whatever checks it. The check needs to be faster, hit harder or take hits better, trump it's type coverage and resistances... You need a specific pokemon to counter one offensive threat.

For example, eelektross is not a garchomp counter/check. It's not fast enough to outspeed garchomp and KO it with hp ice and it's not bulky enough to take an outrage. This illustrates the criteria of a successful offensive check.

But to check a defensive pokemon, what do you need? They're usually slow (very slow in FT's case) they don't hit too hard and use support moves. In ferrothorns case, it can:

Attack with a moderately powerful gyro ball or power whip which are both easily walled.

Set up spikes or SR which can be spun away.

Use thunder wave. Ground types and restalkers handle this.

Leech seed. Grass types, spinners, magic guarders, liquid oozers and pokes with low HP to lessen the return...

Taunt. Taunt shuts him down completely.

Ferrothorn has plenty of counters. Are taunters that resist steel & grass rare? How about grass types that resist SR and can heal status? There are so many ways to handle whatever ferrothorn does that, just by building a decent team, you can handle him easily.

All you need to stop him is a decently powerful fire/fighting attack. If you're smart your team will either resist hazards or have a spinner. When it walls something, you switch out of leech seed to nerf it's recovery.

And how does ferrothorn render certain pokemon unviable? I haven't seen any examples besides maybe swampert. Slowbro renders certain pokemon unviable too. This is called being outclassed. If you think that ferrothorn renders an offensive threat unviable you're wrong. I don't think that any pokemon can sweep while it's counters are alive. So what do you do? You KO the offensive pokemon's counters to clear the way for it to sweep. This happens all the time. Why does ferrothorn get special treatment? He's a prominent wall, so you run the fire/fighting moves to get rid of it. Not the unique NU otherwise deadweight counter. Almost anything can check ferrothorn if it has the coverage move. This is not overcentralizing.

Poliwrath is unviable until jellicent is Koed. You KO jellicent. You don't stop using poliwrath.

Ferrothorn is special, I think, because he's the only steel type in OU that resists water, grass and electric. He's a physically defensive steel type that has special bulk as well, and these resistances cover a gaping hole in the armor that most other steels have. Look at it this way:

What's wrong with forretress? He has no reliable recovery, bad STAB coverage and a lowish attack stat. His special defense is too low, and he doesn't resist water or electric, giving him a huge weakness on the special side.

Ferrothorn is forretress 2.0. Forretress with all the weak spots covered. Super forretress. He has higher attack and lower speed for gyro ball plus powerful grass STAB. He has high special defense and the resistances to wall special attackers just as well as physical ones. Leech seed gives him reliable recovery. It's like a new swampert with recover and sap sipper.

I realize that there are holes in all this, but I'm tired. I kinda rambled a little, but hopefully I got the point across.
 
Bring back Speed Boost Blaziken, the metagame is obviously worse without him.

1 - Sandstorm and Drizzle rules. There's no reason to use Sun at all. Even Hail is more viable than Sun.
2 - Too much sand = too much Garchomp = too much bitching.
3 - Blaziken's absence alone brought bullshit like Ferrothorn's, TTar's and Politoed's "brokeness". Seriously guys?

We didn't even had usage statistics when we sent him to ubers, it was a very, very premature decision.
By the state of today's metagame one can conclude that Blaziken was nothing else than one top tier sweeper/revenge killer, just like Excadrill, Garchomp, Latios, Thundurus,Terrakion (the list goes far).
 

PDC

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We don't need another complex ban. SS + Drizzle was ok because it was broken beyond belief etc. However Blaziken was banned as a whole, not just speed boost. A complex ban is not needed. This has already beena argued. It's just like burning a fire thats been burnt out for hours. Bringing Blaziken back in OU would be more acceptable, but even then i'm really not sure if thats a good decision. As at this point in testing we will be moving towards finalizing the metagame.
 

SJCrew

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Be careful with those loose comparisons. Even though Ferrothorn has better stats overall than Forretress, Forretress' primary advantages lie within its movepool. Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Volt Switch; that's an entire set right there that Ferrothorn can never mimic. I mean, shit, just Rapid Spin gives Forretress its niche. Every time I try to put Ferrothrorn on a team, I'm usually thinking "gee, i sure wish I can spin away those millions of layers of hazards that opposing ferrothorn set up." So I use Forretress instead. Cliche as this argument is, they cover the same ground in a few major ways, but never encroach in one another's territory where it counts. Ferrothorn will always be the better wall. Forretress keeps your sweepers from losing over half their HP per turn.
 
Garchomp, Latios (maybe Latias), Deoxys-s and Excadrill are the only mons (in my opinion) that can be considered suspect.

Garchomp first of all. Under sand have an advantage thanks to sand veil that is not the most fair ability in the game (:P) and is completely walled only by few mons (Skarmory, Bronzong, anyone else ?).

Latios is walled by any SDef-based mon but he can handle they tricking his choice item.

Latias suffers only a Bug/Dark/Ghost physical attack and roar/whirlwind.

Deoxys-S have an incredible support-move pool (don't forget the sinergy with Gorebyss) and it can functions like a mixed sweeper with many good results.

Excadrill...well...you know...sand abuse...incredible attack...air balloon immunity....awesome typing...sword dance...etc


You want to discuss someone else ? I don't see anyone else to considered suspect even this mons are not clearly suspect.

EDIT: i personally live better without blaziken <3
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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The only potential suspect I have is Garchomp...and I dont particularly beleive that is broken. Latios and Excadrill I've railed on too many times to be bothered to do it atm (although I will later if necessary), Deo-S...can be annoying but its only particularly dangerous set is its DS set, otherwise your effectively conceding a pokemon, Latias is only better than Latios on weather imo so I dont see how its broken.

As for other potential suspects, Reuniclus has been dealt with by the playerbase, move on. Weather I dont beleive is broken, I think it is the metagame and I have no problem with that. As people are so fond of saying, "This isnt 4th Gen".
 
That's it. Garchomp is the only real suspect, like Blaziken (i don't think that is paragonable to it) he have few real counters and he can handle that with some luck thanks to sand veil.
 
I believe Latios should be suspect because, basically, with good prediction, Latios will have great chances to make one kill each time he comes. The only pokemon which can come, take an attack and threaten Latios is Tyranitar.
Blissey and Chansey can't even wall it if he runs Psychock.
When only one pokemon in the metagame can effectively count another I think there are reasons to make him suspect.

I think that Subchomp is the real set wich breaks the pokemon. Few pokemon will be able to come on a Sub, break it and kill Garchomp without being killed. (not including some miss from Sand veil). The only things you can run to wall it are Skarmory, Bronzong. Maybe Quagsire too, I'm not sure. Bronzong can't do much, Skarmory will just whirlwind it out. And they both are steels, it means that Magnezone can just take them out.


According to me, only Latios and Garchomp should be suspect this round.

Maybe Thundurus can be too, but I'm not really sure.
 

Jibaku

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Latios is already a suspect

Even though I believe that it doesn't deserve that status at all, but whatever I guess. Whether I use Rain or Sand, Latios has never proven to be an issue to me. He has a good amount of stops compared to most threats in the game but I can't really be bothered to list them all anymore.

What truly bothers me personally is that people consider Latias to be at a lower level threat than Latios. They often say that the additional offensive power Latios has makes a difference and almost completely ignore Latias' added defenses. Given their number of resists and decent bulk you'd almost be certainly switching them into a fair amount of hits in each game, and in the long run, Latias' bulk makes a difference and allows her to deal just as much damage (if not more?) than Latios (and base 110 SAtk isnt bad either).
 
Latios is already a suspect

Even though I believe that it doesn't deserve that status at all, but whatever I guess. Whether I use Rain or Sand, Latios has never proven to be an issue to me. He has a good amount of stops compared to most threats in the game but I can't really be bothered to list them all anymore.

What truly bothers me personally is that people consider Latias to be at a lower level threat than Latios. They often say that the additional offensive power Latios has makes a difference and almost completely ignore Latias' added defenses. Given their number of resists and decent bulk you'd almost be certainly switching them into a fair amount of hits in each game, and in the long run, Latias' bulk makes a difference and allows her to deal just as much damage (if not more?) than Latios (and base 110 SAtk isnt bad either).
You must keep in mind that, with Latias around, many people are not using Latias with Specs but, rather, with bulky CM/Recover/DPulse/Hp Fire (Roar) variants. When people say (like I do) that they have less trouble with Latias, it doesn't mean that Latias is inherently less threatening than Latios, but rather that the sets commonly carried by Latias are less troublesome for them (and would probably be less troublesome even if they were used by Latios himself). A Choice Specs/Scarf Latias would probably be still as threatening as Latios (again, with those same sets).
 
Long post coming because I really don't appreciate being called "lazy" and my posts called "copouts".

@ truevillainy:

There are several problems with allowing every sort of "reasonable" or "common-sense" game-modifying solution (which I'm guessing is ultimately what you want):

1. There are multiple equivalent solutions to every problem. Let's say that Choice Specs Latios breaks the game. Immediately, there are so many ways to remove this set that it's not even funny:

a) ban Choice Specs
b) ban Latios
c) limit SpA and/or Spe EVs (3*64^2 = 12288 possibilities; 3 for Timid + Modest + other natures)
d) ban a combination of 1-4 (say, just for simplicity's sake; it could easily go as high as 7 in some cases) of the offending moves (2^4 = 16 possibilities)
e) nerf the level allowed (100 possibilities)
f) some arbitrary combination of the above (2^1406 = 1.77 x 10^423 possibilities)

Now, presumably, we're trying to find the one measure out of these 1.77 x 10^423 that is the "best" for the metagame, or I guess perhaps the one that satisfies the "intuition" of the most people. The latter goal is horrible for reasons I'll get to later. For the former... how are you proposing that we go about doing this? Remember, there are 1.77 x 10^423 possible ways to nerf Choice Specs Latios, and if we don't account for "intuition" or "theorymon", each one is just as viable a solution as the next. We'd also have to have a one-month test for each possibility. To be fair, some of these possibilities wouldn't really need to be tested, but consider that we potentially have only 4-5 years... probably 60 months of testing if we're lucky. And we certainly won't be able to reduce these possibilities to 60 "testable" ones... all this to fix one stupid problem fairly. And this isn't even scratching the surface of trying to achieve the "best" metagame...

2. You inevitably have to assume that there exists a "common sense" in the overall community that will magically tell us what's "obviously" the best for the metagame. History tells us that this is not true enough for practical purposes - it's why large, developed societies (try to) run on a democracy so that at least each decision will satisfy an arbitrary majority - and often enough, our intuitions are completely wrong. Our "intuition" relies on ideas that have nothing to do with improving a competitive game: human nature / morality, stuff Nintendo tells us, the RPG, etc. Intuition is not only inconsistent but also outright wrong far too many times for us to be using too often.

3. People often GENUINELY want to consider the examples that they give. Do you think I was lying when I said that I wanted to try physical Shaymin-S or level 70 Mewtwo? Why would I give those examples if I didn't genuinely want to consider them? That seems like a terrible way to argue...


Reducing over 1.77 x 10^423 solutions to one in a systematic way is hardly a copout. It's the most logical, fair measure to take. Perhaps the way in which we interpret the rules differs slightly from one person to another, but that doesn't make the rules themselves inconsistent. If one interpretation is consistent, then it's fine.

Personally, I consider the following criteria (and probably more but they simply don't come to mind right now) desirable in a ban:

1. It's easily enforceable in a tournament/exhibition battle. It's clear that the rules that we aim to make exist outside the realms of the ladder, where enforcement of every rule is automated.

2. It doesn't significantly impede team building. It would be dumb to have to check a complicated ruleset every time we build a team, even worse to have the simulator coldly point out what rule(s) my team is breaking. I want to play Pokémon, not a mock court trial. It would also be dumb (to me) to have a Pokémon become less viable on a team that I make because of a ban.

3. It doesn't compel the simulator to hard-code bans to avoid the problems posed by 1. or 2. I believe that "Ubers" and "Street PKMN" should always be trivial to set up in a simulator.

All of these are reasons to ban the Pokémon barring extreme circumstances such as with the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban (and even then, that ban should really be simplified once the Drizzle ban is blocked for the nth time...). Team preview has made criterion #1 very obvious; you'll know just from looking at the opponent's team before the battle if he/she's following the rules. However, if the opponent has Politoed and Kingdra on the same team, there's nothing in a manual challenge battle that will let me know whether Kingdra has Sniper or Swift Swim until it's actually brought out. #2 might be harder to see, but a Pokémon ban doesn't directly affect the viability of any other Pokémon (maybe teammate factors, but that's indirect and probably unavoidable). A ban on Garchomp + Tyranitar would directly reduce each Pokémon's viability on a team. Using one immediately disqualifies the other, potentially having negative effects on the rest of the team.

#3 might seem weird, but it directly addresses your argument that people can handle complication. Well, that's only really true because the games and the simulator enforce certain complications that define the game. There's nothing saying that the game couldn't be improved if we simplified certain game mechanics, but since they help to define the game, we live with them. You can't enforce a combo ban without infringing on criterion #2 or hard-coding them. And hard-coding bans is stupid and unnecessary.

All this is why I think that any ban other than a Pokémon ban - and especially a combo ban - should be heavily scrutinized to see if it would actually have a very significant and clear advantage over a Pokémon ban.
 
Sure 110 attack isn't that bad, but it is no where in the range of Latios with 130 special attack stat! Thats a full 44 points higher! Thats more then a modest boost, it scores a bajillion more KOs. Latias is more of a defensive force with those snazzy 80/90/130 defenses, an amazing typing, outside of the pursuit weakness of course, it can take a shit load of moves from all over the spectrum. But so can forretress, which argueably should never be a suspect, even even if it was, useage alone shows that Latias isn't that great. If it was more people would be using it, sure thats just statistics, but as your suggesting a ban, if people aren't using a pokemon that might be broken, maybe just maybe its not broken. And its not like its outclassed either, it plays entirely diferent.
 

Meru

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Latios is already a suspect

Even though I believe that it doesn't deserve that status at all, but whatever I guess. Whether I use Rain or Sand, Latios has never proven to be an issue to me. He has a good amount of stops compared to most threats in the game but I can't really be bothered to list them all anymore.

What truly bothers me personally is that people consider Latias to be at a lower level threat than Latios. They often say that the additional offensive power Latios has makes a difference and almost completely ignore Latias' added defenses. Given their number of resists and decent bulk you'd almost be certainly switching them into a fair amount of hits in each game, and in the long run, Latias' bulk makes a difference and allows her to deal just as much damage (if not more?) than Latios (and base 110 SAtk isnt bad either).
You're ignoring one thing about Latias's bulk. It has pretty much the same physical bulk as Latios, which is where both of them almost always get hit
 

Pocket

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capefeather, it is obvious that the best solution for Latios (if it is really overpowered), is to ban Latias itself, and avoid any of the ridiculous stuff you brought up in your example:

Choice Specs is not the problem, because Choice Specs does not break other monsters.
Draco Meteor is not the problem, because Draco Meteor does not break other monsters.
Latias, due to its unique typing and stat distribution, is able to wield Choice Specs & Draco Meteor and tear holes in teams. Obviously, the culprit is the Pokemon, not the item or the move, so you ban the root of the problem (if it is a problem).

I think in the same vein, Garchomp should be banned (if it is a problem). Other Sand Veil users doesn't break the game, it is obviously Garchomp that is the problem.

Aldaron's complex ban is also almost explained with the same line of reasoning. In this case, it wasn't really Kingdra that broke the metagame, but Swift Swim in conjunction with Drizzle. Otherwise we would have simply banned Kingdra, and there would be no more hassle about the issue. However, the fact that people claimed that Kabutops and Ludicolo were also overpowered meant that it was beyond the traits of a single Pokemon, but rather some common factor among them: Swift Swim in Drizzle.
Perhaps if there were multiple Sand Veil abusers that became overpowered because of the luck factor of Sand Veil, we may want to consider some sort of complex ban.

Banning Drizzle would not have been the right move (at that time), because it is not Drizzle that is broken. We are not sure if Drizzle without Swift Swim would have been overpowered at that time. Aldaron's Proposal allowed to separate the effects of Drizzle from the effects of Drizzle + Swift Swim, giving us a testing period of whether or not the supporting characteristics of Drizzle is too much.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
20+(20x6)=140 so Espeon now has the ability to use a base 140 STAB attack with no drawbacks, taunt and phaze immunity, and the ability to pass those boosts onto someone else if need be.

This is going to be fun.
 
20+(20x6)=140 so Espeon now has the ability to use a base 140 STAB attack with no drawbacks, taunt and phaze immunity, and the ability to pass those boosts onto someone else if need be.

This is going to be fun.
Actually, Calm Mind would be 12 boosts (6 SpA, 6 SpD): 20 + (12*20)= 260

Espeon@Leftovers
Timid; 252 HP / 6 SpA / 252 Spe

Reflect
Calm Mind
Baton Pass
Stored Power / Psychic

This seems like the ideal set, IMO. Reflect patches up your defense and is general team support. Calm Mind is obvious, while Baton Pass helps you escape from Dark types while passing your boosts simultaneously.

Stored Power is preferred because of the boosts it can accummulate, but it makes Espeon essentially deadweight until it can viably sweep late-game. Psychic also takes advantage of the CM boosts (260 BP is overkill at +6 regardless) and lets you check fighters so that Espeon can do something throughout the match.

+6 297 SpA Stored Power vs 252/252 Careful Ferrothorn: (128.98% - 151.99%)

That ish is legit, yo.
 
@Espeon discussion

Oh shit just got real.

@Icyman

Tyranitar is a perfect counter for that set.

Also, no I don't feel that Stored Power will push him over the top. I feel that it would be something similar to Reuniclus arguments. Choosing between counters in other words. Take the set you just posted for example. If you do give it Reflect it'll have a counter in Tyranitar. However if you give it HP (Fire or Fighting) then you'll have to choose counters between CB Scizor and Tyranitar. In the end You'll have a true counter with your set and if Espeon doesn't pack a reflect, there will also be problems with Other priority. CB Dragonite Extremespeed. CB Azumarill Aqua Jet. I can go on and on.
 

Jibaku

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You're ignoring one thing about Latias's bulk. It has pretty much the same physical bulk as Latios, which is where both of them almost always get hit
Uninvested Latias' def compared to Latios' def is almost the same as Latios' invested SAtk compared to Latias' SAtk. Plus, you'll be switching into special moves more often anyways...or so I have experienced.
even even if it was, useage alone shows that Latias isn't that great
I don't want to have to say this but "people are dumb". There is absolutely no reason Latias should be as low as #45.

All I'm just saying is that given that Latias is obviously not offensively inept and the bulk increase is extremely helpful due to its typing, people should give serious consideration of placing them in the same tier...

/me sigh
 
It's interesting to note that the difference between latias and latios's special attack is less significant than the difference between deoxys N and deoxys A's.

edit: This is also true with ratios. Latios's special attacks are 12% more powerful than latias, while deoxys A's are 15% more powerful than deoxys N's (assuming timid, max SpA for all pokemon).
 
@Icyman

Tyranitar is a perfect counter for that set.

Also, no I don't feel that Stored Power will push him over the top. I feel that it would be something similar to Reuniclus arguments. Choosing between counters in other words. Take the set you just posted for example. If you do give it Reflect it'll have a counter in Tyranitar. However if you give it HP (Fire or Fighting) then you'll have to choose counters between CB Scizor and Tyranitar. In the end You'll have a true counter with your set and if Espeon doesn't pack a reflect, there will also be problems with Other priority. CB Dragonite Extremespeed. CB Azumarill Aqua Jet. I can go on and on.
Thus Baton Pass. Espeon will have few issues escaping from Tyranitar with it, and even if the recipient doesn't particularly use special attacks, it will have a nicely padded SpD. I don't think it will push Espeon over the top per se, but it is quite the boon to Smashpassing.
 

shrang

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Latios is already a suspect

Even though I believe that it doesn't deserve that status at all, but whatever I guess. Whether I use Rain or Sand, Latios has never proven to be an issue to me. He has a good amount of stops compared to most threats in the game but I can't really be bothered to list them all anymore.

What truly bothers me personally is that people consider Latias to be at a lower level threat than Latios. They often say that the additional offensive power Latios has makes a difference and almost completely ignore Latias' added defenses. Given their number of resists and decent bulk you'd almost be certainly switching them into a fair amount of hits in each game, and in the long run, Latias' bulk makes a difference and allows her to deal just as much damage (if not more?) than Latios (and base 110 SAtk isnt bad either).
I personally find Latias to more dangerous than Latios in the long run, definitely. Latios comes in, fires a few really powerful hits, and that's about it. Latias can slowly boost up in your face, and if your Tyranitar or Scizor or something like that has carked it, Latias will cause you a world of pain. I personally would take on Choice Specs Latios instead of something like Sub/CM Latias any day.
 
We're only a week away from the end of the test now, and as such there is an important announcement: this round we will no longer be using the 15+15 method of determining voters. Instead, we will be using a fixed rating requirement of 1450. Keep in mind that because ratings were not reset at the beginning of this round, the requirement may or may not be as high in future rounds.
Yay!

Just for clarification, I have a rating right now over 1450, does that mean I already get reqs? This system is in line with our old method, pre-phil right?
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I personally find Latias to more dangerous than Latios in the long run, definitely. Latios comes in, fires a few really powerful hits, and that's about it. Latias can slowly boost up in your face, and if your Tyranitar or Scizor or something like that has carked it, Latias will cause you a world of pain. I personally would take on Choice Specs Latios instead of something like Sub/CM Latias any day.
Latios can run the exact same CM set as Latias with similar bulk and the ability to hit even harder. And quite frankly, they are both countered by the same handful of pokemon (Latios even less). I would and have personally used CM Latios over Latias and it just seems more effective overall.
 
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