I find that the utter abundance of Steel-types brought on by the threat of Latios, Latios, Hydreigon, and Dragonite is what makes Fire-type moves so much more sued. Now, i'm not saying that Ferrothorn doesn't play a huge reason in this, i'm just saying that Ferrothorn isn't the sole reason for the rise in Fire-type moves.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Wait, so Fire wasn't already a common type because of Scizor? Heatran didn't see loads of usage in Gen 4 because of Scizor? And, actually, didn't Scizor run Superpower because of Heatran?
Fire moves were pretty common before, and I think the big increase in Fighting is mostly attributed to the boost in HJK's power and some amazing new Fighting types (Conkeldurr, Mienshao, Scrafty...) - the fact that they counter Ferrothorn well is just another reason to run them, not the only one. (The fact that Ferrothorn is top of usage despite this is a testament to its strengths, but not a reason to ban it, IMO.)
Fire moves were pretty common before, and I think the big increase in Fighting is mostly attributed to the boost in HJK's power and some amazing new Fighting types (Conkeldurr, Mienshao, Scrafty...) - the fact that they counter Ferrothorn well is just another reason to run them, not the only one. (The fact that Ferrothorn is top of usage despite this is a testament to its strengths, but not a reason to ban it, IMO.)
On the Garchomp discussion, I've looked into it, and it turns out Sand Veil is actually the true factor, as when Sand Veil doesn't work, let's face it, a Porygon2 could beat SubChomp, however if even ONE MISS happened, Porygon2 would suffer a 2HKO from Outrage. Now Garchomp is starting to seem kind of broken to me as Porygon is one of Gen 5's bulkiest of walls. Garchomp has 2 counters, but only a few checks out there, and we don't want to have to start running Skarm/Zong on every team that is not Rain/Sun.
And how could I forget Ferrothorn, sure Ferrothorn does centralize because of its excellent typing and bulk, but OU always has some form of centralization. In Rain it may be tough, but look at stuff like CM Reuniclus/Virizion, they make quick work of Ferrothorn and there's no overcentralization in the fact that they use Focus Blast. And has many have pointed out, Ferrothorn checked a lot of broken threats (except Blaziken). Take Latios for example, Ferro Lolz at its DMs and Surfs. What about the aforementioned Garchomp, Ferro takes outrages easily. Ferrothorn being banned could easily cause a cascade of bans. It's really bad for the metagame to lose its arguably best defensive steel. Besides, another steel will come in and make everyone run Fire/Fighting/whatever-Type attacks. We shouldn't really be discussing Ferro
And how could I forget Ferrothorn, sure Ferrothorn does centralize because of its excellent typing and bulk, but OU always has some form of centralization. In Rain it may be tough, but look at stuff like CM Reuniclus/Virizion, they make quick work of Ferrothorn and there's no overcentralization in the fact that they use Focus Blast. And has many have pointed out, Ferrothorn checked a lot of broken threats (except Blaziken). Take Latios for example, Ferro Lolz at its DMs and Surfs. What about the aforementioned Garchomp, Ferro takes outrages easily. Ferrothorn being banned could easily cause a cascade of bans. It's really bad for the metagame to lose its arguably best defensive steel. Besides, another steel will come in and make everyone run Fire/Fighting/whatever-Type attacks. We shouldn't really be discussing Ferro
Counters or even lack thereof don't make Pokemon particularly not broken or broken. It's a factor, but not the biggest. Ferrothorn does exactly what the ban system was put into place to prevent. The metagame is centered around it, it makes Pokemon flat-out not viable, and it makes once completely legitimate play-styles not viable, and it's even #1 in usage. I will beat those points to death if that's what it takes, but he's a giant thorn holding the metagame back. (Pun completely intended)
What I'm more interested in is what exactly does Ferrothorn stop? You say there would be a cascade of bans but...What uncontrollable threat does he stop that isn't stopped by Gliscor or Slowbro? Give me a solid reason why Ferrothorn just HAS to be in the OU metagame.
Is it because he stops Starmie? Who checks Garchomp, a Pokemon that we were up in arms about not even a page back ago.
Is it because he laughs at Swampert? A Pokemon that normally can help break SkarmBliss and Roar out setup sweepers or Ice Beam Dragons.
If anything, Ferrothorn is protecting a lot of those huge "broken" Pokemon from their counters.
@ bolded text - If you remember back in 4th Gen, so did Weavile. Garchomp, Salamence, Shaymin-S, all checked by Weavile, but they all got banned anyway so that's not really a very valid point.
What I'm more interested in is what exactly does Ferrothorn stop? You say there would be a cascade of bans but...What uncontrollable threat does he stop that isn't stopped by Gliscor or Slowbro? Give me a solid reason why Ferrothorn just HAS to be in the OU metagame.
Is it because he stops Starmie? Who checks Garchomp, a Pokemon that we were up in arms about not even a page back ago.
Is it because he laughs at Swampert? A Pokemon that normally can help break SkarmBliss and Roar out setup sweepers or Ice Beam Dragons.
If anything, Ferrothorn is protecting a lot of those huge "broken" Pokemon from their counters.
jrp
Banned deucer.
The main thing that I see is that for the most part, the only thing Ferrothorn can do is to spike/s rock. While it admitibally has good offensive capabilities, the main moves it runs, Power Whip and Gyro Ball don't really have much in the way of coverage. Magnezone can easilly set up a sub on it while trapping it with Magnet Pull to block Thunder Wave as well as giving Magnezone a hit on whatever switches in next. Ferrothorn is also a guarenteed set up on things like Calm Mind Reuniculus where Ferrothorn can barely dent it.
And being at the top of the usage chart doesn't really mean something is broken tbh.
Edit, like the above people said, it helps keep other Pokemon from becoming broken as well.
And being at the top of the usage chart doesn't really mean something is broken tbh.
Edit, like the above people said, it helps keep other Pokemon from becoming broken as well.
Ehh, I'd say it has a significant number of checks, honestly. The only problem is that they aren't 100% reliable any more thanks to Sand Veil, so they've gone from being counters to checks, meaning you generally need 2+.
The other way to look at it is to say that Chomp has several checks depending on the variant: SubSDChomp hates any phazing, especially alongside something with Encore, as well as hating Taunt. ScarfChomp hates most Steel types, and is even easier to handle if it is switched in on, as well as hating any ScarfLati or repeated priority.
Not saying it's easily countered at all - I know full-well how annoying Garchomp is to beat, and it's probably the main reason I run Machamp - but I think it has enough checks and counters to specific sets that it isn't broken.
jrp
Banned deucer.
If you're facing SubDance Chomp, Machamp can't beat it. True, you can break the sub (and that's if you're sashed), but otherwise, you get taken out by Chomp in one turn, the sash being broken and the sand damage
Just sayin', ScarfChamp switches in as the Sub is set up and then goes first with Ice Punch, breaks sub, survives an unboosted Outrage and KOs (or watches an SD then goes first and KOs).
Also, Katakiri, I'm interested in knowing what playstyle you think Ferrothorn shuts down and what Pokemon it stops being viable. Swampert is outclassed elsewhere, and Starmie can (and probably does) run HP Fire regardless (or can just use Ice Beam, if you're me) - and either way, Pokemon have counters, yes. It doesn't make them useless, as long as your team is built to beat those counters.
Comments in Bold and Italic
EDIT: Wanted to mention, its not that Ferrothorn has to be in OU. It's that Ferrothorn doesn't have to not be in OU. Don't try to fix whats not broken.(Pun not intended)
Scarfchomp isn't nearly unbeatable. Get locked into outrage, they have a steel type and that's all the momentum lost. EQ locked chomp is set up fodder for anything with levitate or of flying orientation. You don't need to outpredict the famous "dual stabs". If you do; advantage. If you don't: momentum switches for the next turn back to you.
And "counters" is complete crap. If Garchomp truly had 2/3 counters then every team with a Garchomp would hardly ever lose laddering or in tournaments. That clearly is not the case. Garchomp is just as "human" as everything else, just as susceptible to priority, status, and even normal attacks. You talk of hard countering when all that is required to put Garchomp out is a burn or sleep or an attack that does >60% (Priority/ scarf OHKO range). Garchomp doesn't OHKO everything in OU, particularly if it has a choice scarf. Almost every attack hurts now, and although Garchomp is bulky, it's not a defensive behemoth.
And sand veil is relevant if you solely apply it to Garchomp. I've seen paralysis analogies: if a pokemon had an ability that instantly paralysed the opponent, might that not be more cause to ban it? It is wrong to overlap luck with imbalancing, but it is also wrong to negate an aptitude that is a +1 evasion boost in a sandstorm. It's not ridiculously powerful but any contributing factor is relevant if you're making a case for or against a Garchomp ban.
And "counters" is complete crap. If Garchomp truly had 2/3 counters then every team with a Garchomp would hardly ever lose laddering or in tournaments. That clearly is not the case. Garchomp is just as "human" as everything else, just as susceptible to priority, status, and even normal attacks. You talk of hard countering when all that is required to put Garchomp out is a burn or sleep or an attack that does >60% (Priority/ scarf OHKO range). Garchomp doesn't OHKO everything in OU, particularly if it has a choice scarf. Almost every attack hurts now, and although Garchomp is bulky, it's not a defensive behemoth.
And sand veil is relevant if you solely apply it to Garchomp. I've seen paralysis analogies: if a pokemon had an ability that instantly paralysed the opponent, might that not be more cause to ban it? It is wrong to overlap luck with imbalancing, but it is also wrong to negate an aptitude that is a +1 evasion boost in a sandstorm. It's not ridiculously powerful but any contributing factor is relevant if you're making a case for or against a Garchomp ban.
That's the thing, Starmie & many other Pokemon are forced to use HP Fire just to hit Ferrothorn. The entire metagame is more centered around this ONE Pokemon than it is with even weather. And that's saying a whole lot. Weather is an extremely complex issue, Ferrothorn however is one Pokemon.
You say that all he does is SR & Spikes, but those have been proven time & time again to be the strongest attacks in the entire game. There are 19 Fully Evolved Pokemon out of the 649 Pokemon that are immune to Spikes & not weak to Stealth Rock. That includes all released Magic Guard Pokemon.
Add Leech Seed & Gyro Ball to that and with Ferrothorn's type, ability, & stats, he perfectly fits the Uber criteria for a Support Pokemon.
Ferrothorn is a different kind of broken from everything we've banned in recent years. Everything up to this point has been Offensive. (Minus Deoxys-E/D in DP) The Dragons of 4th Gen, Blaziken, Swift Swim, all banned for their offensive traits. Most of you need to realized that "broken" doesn't always apply to offense or even pure defense. Ferrothorn doesn't have to set-up to set-up like an offensive Pokemon, he doesn't need a Sub to do his job, he has NO COMMITMENT to stay in if one of his so called "counters" switches in. His only true counter is Magnezone.
It completely defines what we don't want in the metagame. One Pokemon has made many Pokemon that have been proved completely viable last Gen completely nonviable. (using 4th Gen as a comparison is bad, but I think it's called for here) One Pokemon completely invalidates entire play-styles. One Pokemon has crafted the metagame around it. We are not playing Pokemon. We are playing Ferrothorn. (+ the Weather Channel)
Once Shadow Tag Chandelure comes out, well hey! Ferrothorn has TWO counters now!
He fits the Uber criteria perfectly but you all seem to be brushing it off like "Oh Ferrothorn's just Ferrothorn." That's not how it works. That's not how the Suspect System was EVER meant to work. We're not banning things because they give our team a hard time. (Looking at you Garchomp) We're supposed to be looking at things from a metagame perspective. Not your team. Not my team. The entire metagame.
All this coming from a Sun Team user that has very little issue with Ferro with his own team. Metagame perspective, Ladies & Gentlemen.
All bold.
All the time.
You love it.
You say that all he does is SR & Spikes, but those have been proven time & time again to be the strongest attacks in the entire game. There are 19 Fully Evolved Pokemon out of the 649 Pokemon that are immune to Spikes & not weak to Stealth Rock. That includes all released Magic Guard Pokemon.
Add Leech Seed & Gyro Ball to that and with Ferrothorn's type, ability, & stats, he perfectly fits the Uber criteria for a Support Pokemon.
Ferrothorn is a different kind of broken from everything we've banned in recent years. Everything up to this point has been Offensive. (Minus Deoxys-E/D in DP) The Dragons of 4th Gen, Blaziken, Swift Swim, all banned for their offensive traits. Most of you need to realized that "broken" doesn't always apply to offense or even pure defense. Ferrothorn doesn't have to set-up to set-up like an offensive Pokemon, he doesn't need a Sub to do his job, he has NO COMMITMENT to stay in if one of his so called "counters" switches in. His only true counter is Magnezone.
It completely defines what we don't want in the metagame. One Pokemon has made many Pokemon that have been proved completely viable last Gen completely nonviable. (using 4th Gen as a comparison is bad, but I think it's called for here) One Pokemon completely invalidates entire play-styles. One Pokemon has crafted the metagame around it. We are not playing Pokemon. We are playing Ferrothorn. (+ the Weather Channel)
Once Shadow Tag Chandelure comes out, well hey! Ferrothorn has TWO counters now!
He fits the Uber criteria perfectly but you all seem to be brushing it off like "Oh Ferrothorn's just Ferrothorn." That's not how it works. That's not how the Suspect System was EVER meant to work. We're not banning things because they give our team a hard time. (Looking at you Garchomp) We're supposed to be looking at things from a metagame perspective. Not your team. Not my team. The entire metagame.
All this coming from a Sun Team user that has very little issue with Ferro with his own team. Metagame perspective, Ladies & Gentlemen.
All bold.
All the time.
You love it.
My thoughts based on the Wifi metagame, anyway:
My signature should already tell you what I think of Ferrothorn, but I'll elaborate a little. So many things carry HP Fire, Fire Blast, or a Fighting move that I've actually considered replacing Ferrothorn on my team because it's so much harder to use than everyone says.
I haven't really encountered Substitute Garchomp, since both Garchomp and Sand teams in general are surprisingly rare on Wifi.
Yache Chomp, however, is perfectly beatable, since I've had some experience with using it. Outrage makes it helpless before a revenge kill, or maybe a Steel type setup. Garchomp isn't frail, but it can't take too many hits, and really hates Burn or Sleep, as some posters mentioned earlier. It also hates Protect, since the opponent can stall until it is confused from Outrage. Faster stuff tends to kill it or at least make it switch out, since 102 base Speed is not terribly fast without a Choice Scarf anymore, and Choice Scarf would reduce Garchomp's power anyway.
My signature should already tell you what I think of Ferrothorn, but I'll elaborate a little. So many things carry HP Fire, Fire Blast, or a Fighting move that I've actually considered replacing Ferrothorn on my team because it's so much harder to use than everyone says.
I haven't really encountered Substitute Garchomp, since both Garchomp and Sand teams in general are surprisingly rare on Wifi.
Yache Chomp, however, is perfectly beatable, since I've had some experience with using it. Outrage makes it helpless before a revenge kill, or maybe a Steel type setup. Garchomp isn't frail, but it can't take too many hits, and really hates Burn or Sleep, as some posters mentioned earlier. It also hates Protect, since the opponent can stall until it is confused from Outrage. Faster stuff tends to kill it or at least make it switch out, since 102 base Speed is not terribly fast without a Choice Scarf anymore, and Choice Scarf would reduce Garchomp's power anyway.
^this. Ferro could do a lot more in Ubers than Garchomp could, and removing them both from OU Meta will make everything a lot more balanced. If Chomp goes, Ferro should go.
Use in Ubers has no say in if it should be uber or not. Saying Ferrothorn works in ubers doesn't make it uber.
Anyway a find Ferrothorn a very useful pokemon, a fantastic spiker, a rain counter, and can switch in to many, many threats. While I find that with the ease of setting down spikes (thanks to both Ferrothorn and Skarmory) and the fantastic ghosts we have (BURUNGERU!) Hazards are just as deadly, if not more deadly than ever. But that isn't just on Ferrothorn, there's quite a few pokemon the spike and stealth rock so it's just the standard at this point.
Anyway, I've said it quite a few times at this point, but I don't find anything broken at this point. Everything can be handled, nothing is really a breakaway sweeper (there's tons of good sweepers, don't get me wrong), sun has become the worst weather in OU, but it's still usable and still able to win pretty effectively. Stall is common and strong, rain and sand are both powerful. I like it!!!
I doubt it's just to hit Ferrothorn. As I said, Heatran was popular in Gen 4 because of Scizor, who remains a large threat in Gen 5. And that's not even starting on things like Bronzong, Metagross, Skarmory and Magnezone...
1. Like what? You named two Pokemon earlier where... one is still viable and the other isn't viable for an entirely different reason.
2. What play-style is invalidated? You didn't actually answer that one from earlier.
3. The metagame is most definitely not built around Ferrothorn. Let's take a look at Tyranitar, Garchomp, Gliscor, Breloom and Lati@s - I'm fairly sure they aren't being used because of Ferrothorn, they're just damn good. I didn't even consider Ferrothorn in my team, my team just happened to have answers to it.
There is a big difference between not looking at the whole metagame and simply not agreeing with you. I find Ferrothorn is easily handled and, yes, while it can be a threat to some teams, it's not like his checks/counters are bad Pokemon and it's not like Ferrothorn specifically is causing those Pokemon to be used.
Garchomp is annoying thanks to the Sand Veil Ability that transforms his playstyle in (a part of) luck-based.
Ferrothorn have a lot of checks and is only top-tier. Taunt users, fire attack, fight attack (not always, but yes, they are counters) and even neutral attack (the standard SD/Taunt/Ice Fang/Eartquake Gliscor love to setup on Ferro and kill him with a STAB boosted eathquake)
Ferrothorn have a lot of checks and is only top-tier. Taunt users, fire attack, fight attack (not always, but yes, they are counters) and even neutral attack (the standard SD/Taunt/Ice Fang/Eartquake Gliscor love to setup on Ferro and kill him with a STAB boosted eathquake)
I agree, the fact that a Water/Psychic type must use a coverage move to defeat a Grass/Steel type is absolutely ridiculous. Starmie should be able to muscle through its counters using its STABs and BoltBeam alone. How dare it acquire a viable check?
I'm not really sure what game you've been playing, but ever since the days of RBY, pokemon has been a team game. You are aiming to force the opponent into a position where one of your pokemon can eventually sweep, and that simply involves strategy. Ferrothorn is number one and your main sweeper is walled by it? Then you damn sure better have various ways to check it, or you will consistently lose.
Starmie has no business running HP Fire anyway, just leave Ferrothorn to a teammate.
Skarmory can use Spikes and Stealth Rock (along with more reliable recovery, IMO). Forry can Spikes, SR, TS, and RS. Deoxys-d and Deoxys-s (the latter being much less effective) are also capable. The moves are everywhere, Ferrothorn isn't the only user.
And while this doesn't currently apply, once more berries become available, we will undoubtedly start seeing the Sturdy + Custap strategy, which all but guarantees 2 layers bar priority.
This is true, not everything has to be offensive to be banned. I still doubt that Ferrothorn is so extremely supportive that it needs to go though. I also suggest you look at other options for countering it, because Magnezone is definitely not the only counter. Assuming the standard set, Ferrothorn is hard countered by anything that resists grass and carries a fire/fighting move, or is simply bulky enough to KO it before getting KOd itself. Infernape, Heatran, Salamence, Hydreigon, Reuniclus, Conkeldurr, Volcarona...the list goes on.
It is a little strange that you rant about how a pokemon doesn't need to be offensive to be banned, but then cite a perceived lack of counters as a reason to be banned. If anything, we should be looking at the amount of support it provides, which is not considerably more than similar pokemon.
"Oh no! Stealth Rock has made the use of previously viable pokemon completely unviable pokemon! Whatever will we do now!?"
The argument you just made is, simply put, ignorant of how the metagame works. Not everything is going to be competitively viable forever. Just look at Snorlax and Zapdos. OU stalwarts for 4 generations, but they couldn't make it in the 5th. Note that both commonly carry methods of dealing with Ferrothorn, so clearly it is not Ferrothorn alone that makes pokemon unviable. It is simply another factor. Weather wars, new powerhouses, etc have created an environment where some pokemon simply will not succeed.
We no longer use the Uber criteria (most people were just using the Support criteria to ban pokemon that didn't fit the offensive criteria anyway), we simply go by our own experiences. With enough experiences, you get a good idea of the metagame as a whole. Ferrothorn is by no means too much for the metagame to handle, and it does much more positive things for the metagame than it does negative.
The bold is also unneeded. If you bold nearly everything in your post, then it loses its effectiveness. We can read, I promise.
EDIT: I've already made my stance on Garchomp. It is checked much more easily this gen than last, and many teams have more than 1 check to it by default, not intentionally. These aren't the days of Garchomp/Skarmory/Bronzong/SkarmCheck/BronzongCheck/WildCard.
No suspects, IMO.
Gah, we had an entire thread stating the definition of "uncompetitive" a little while back. Please stop using it in such an incorrect way. Moody was banned because it was detrimental to the metagame, not because of anything to do with competitiveness.
But on the other more important things.
I haven't looked at this thread for a while, but I'm glad to see people are talking about Ferrothorn. First of all, I would like to say that I am neutral on Ferro, I do not necessarily think it should be banned, but I do think it certainly is more worthy of a suspect test than almost any other Pokemon. Why? Because it defines centralization. Possibly even over-centralization. Things are forced to carry Fire moves for Ferrothorn. That is a fact. I see people saying that Pokemon would carry them anyways, but I highly doubt you would see guys like Starmie and Latios with HP Fire if it wasn't for Ferro. And he makes support things like Seeding and Spiking so easy, there is little reason not to use him.
So yes, he is over-centralizing. But is that really bad? Depends. What you have to think about is what Ferro's current effect on the metagame is, not what effect removing him would have. It may very well cause other Pokemon (dragons) to become overpowered and be banned. But once again, is that bad? Our goal is to end up with a great metagame, and if we feel Ferro is hindering that, then he needs to go. Maybe that means other must follow, but there is no reason to protect one Pokemon so that others we like are protected too.
As I said, I am not really for or against a Ferro ban, but I feel that it is the most debatable topic out there right now, and the most important one too. And as much as I like Ferrothorn, I will say that its removal would probably diversify the metagame more than any other change could.
I see what you're getting at, but I have a few issues. One, you are considering a Pokemon's only true counter something that can trap it. So you're saying that Pokemon have no true counters if Magnezone, Dugtrio, Pursuit, or locking moves like Outrage let them be eliminated for sure? Because a lot of Pokemon fit this category, and have "no commitment to stay in" on counters.
Two, these points can be easily rephrased with Blissey instead of Ferrothorn. And I don't think we want to ban Blissey, do we?
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You say Ferrothorn needs no set up or sub to work and can switch out with ease. Blissey can. (except mega-pursuits, but that's just as likely as Magnezone) And Blissey supports the team with status, healing, and damage just as Ferro does with slight variation. Both are also Trick and Taunt targets.
You say many Pokemon have to run random fire moves to beat Thorn. Blissey sounds familiar, making Pokemon change their movesets (fighting moves, subcharge, subsplit etc.) just to accomodate it.
You say Ferrothorn completely invalidates certain playstyles. If Ferro does this by walling half the metagame, then so does Blissey/Chansey. And if you mean by playstyles stall/offense etc., offense is running fine, Ferro helps stall, helps rain, and is eaten alive by sun. What playstyle is he inhibiting?
And, just as special sweepers exist in the face of Blissey, physical and special sweepers exist in the face of Ferrothorn. Both Pokemon made many others worse, but were tolerated. I mean, Scizor arguably made tons of Pokemon worthless without Magnezone, but it was tolerated even at the top of the Gen IV ladder.
I agree that we are more prone to banning offensive Pokemon, but... Just how different are the effects of Ferrothorn different from Blissey or Scizor? Pretty much every ban I've seen (minus Wobb) has been for sweepers: Latias, Garchomp, and Mence in Gen IV and Blaziken and the SwSw rain dance offensive combo in Gen V. Offense has repeatedly shown itself to be an overpowering factor. Support/Defense... I don't think so right now.
Uber characteristics...?
Oh, are you talking about those guidelines which are not required anymore, and were never anything more than guidelines anyway, and never used besides the Support one for a couple voters to justify banning Latios and the Offensive one for... well, fucking obvious shit?
And I find it amazing that somebody who uses Sun teams says Ferrothorn (a supportive pokémon) has no counters (a concept mostly applied to offensive pokémon) besides a trapper. Am I missing something here?
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