Other Critical Hits

[ctom42]

So this topic came up in the main game mechanic discovery thread, so I decided to do a bit more testing. I had super luck absol with high crit moves, which should in theory be +2 stages, the same as stick and focus energy. I did 250 hits and got 123 crits, which gives a result of 49.2% crit chance. This is in line with what people were saying about a 50% chance from focus energy and stick.

It looks like the stages are as follows

1: 6.75%
2: ???
3: 50%
4: 100%

I'm kinda sick of this at this point so does anyone else want to test +1 (just plain super luck or high crit move or crit item). From what little data I've seen so far I think its higher than 1/8, so I'm guessing 1/5 or 1/4, but it could be 1/6 as well. It will probably take more data to narrow it down because there are a bunch of possibilities all within a couple percent of each other.

 

[ctom42]

In a way this crit change is a (small) blessing in disguise since it helps pokemon like tauros activate their anger point ability much easier. The crit would hurt them less and crits are more common (if I read it right) so it doesnt necessarily need a pokemon with frost breath besides them.

Not really, it seems like the base crit chance has not changed. Crits are only more common from things with moves, items, or abilities that raise their crit chance.

 

[The Legend Waker]

If the critical hit rate has been increased then this makes the game even more luck-based than before, despite the damage nerf. A 200% damage critical hit was overkill against frailer pokemon or when targeting a weakness, so if the rate has truly gone from 1/16 to 1/18 this means they'll die from a crit almost twice as often now.

1/16 > 1/18? Don't you mean the other way? :P

 

[stage7_4]

So this topic came up in the main game mechanic discovery thread, so I decided to do a bit more testing. I had super luck absol with high crit moves, which should in theory be +2 stages, the same as stick and focus energy. I did 250 hits and got 123 crits, which gives a result of 49.2% crit chance. This is in line with what people were saying about a 50% chance from focus energy and stick.

It looks like the stages are as follows

1: 6.75%
2: ???
3: 50%
4: 100%

I'm kinda sick of this at this point so does anyone else want to test +1 (just plain super luck or high crit move or crit item). From what little data I've seen so far I think its higher than 1/8, so I'm guessing 1/5 or 1/4, but it could be 1/6 as well. It will probably take more data to narrow it down because there are a bunch of possibilities all within a couple percent of each other.

I honestly thought this thread was dead and only knew of the crit changes talked about in the Battle Mechanics thread (it seems all I missed was here). So again, sorry about that.

To actually add to the conversation, I wonder if any pokemon could take advantage of a 100% crit rate. Snipers come to mind (since their crit damage isn't too bad really), but others that carry focus energy but no boosting moves (like Hydreigon) could use it.

Something like his old set:

Hydreigon - Mixed/Scope Lens
Dragon Pulse
Fire Blast
Superpower
Focus Energy

It gains a 1.5 boost over the old 1.3 boost with life orb damage. It loses an extra coverage move (and roost, but without life orb damage that might be okay) and now has to get the boost in to be effective. It also can't run Draco Meteor since it doesn't want to switch out (maybe Superpower too).

No idea how it would play out though. Interested in exploring this idea (with other pokemon too of course).

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I don't think scope lens sets will ever be preferable to common sets on anyone other than pokemon with crit oriented abilities. Scope lens Absol could do well in UU (though its future in that tier depends on how people handle mega evolution), or sniper mons can get many surprise KO's. Overall however, people who use these strategies will be looked down upon for relying on luck, and the reliance on luck will ensure these sets should be second choice to more common and dependable sets when there are anything other than bragging rights is on the line.

 

[stage7_4]

I don't think scope lens sets will ever be preferable to common sets on anyone other than pokemon with crit oriented abilities. Scope lens Absol could do well in UU (though its future in that tier depends on how people handle mega evolution), or sniper mons can get many surprise KO's. Overall however, people who use these strategies will be looked down upon for relying on luck, and the reliance on luck will ensure these sets should be second choice to more common and dependable sets when there are anything other than bragging rights is on the line.

I agree on the part that scope lens sets are impractical to standard sets on a broad scale (they aren't called standard for being niche'd gimmicks).

However "relying on luck" is missing the point of a 100% critical hit. On. Every. Move. This turns the combo of focus energy and scope lens/high-crit-moves/super luck into a pseudo buffed work up, a flat 1.5 increase to every move. This out-damages life orb and doesn't have recoil. The cherry is it ignores defensive boosts.

It has clear drawbacks though (life orb + set-up move outdoes any of these sets, 4MSS, and life orb alone requires no set up for a flat 1.3 increase, in addition to the common set-up sweeper problems). But if your 'mon doesn't have a good boosting move but does get focus energy (like Hydreigon, Nidoking/queen, Flygon and Krookodile get hone claws/moxie but whatever I'm making a point), this could open doors.

Long story short, "relying on luck?!" Did you miss the 100% part?

 

[Dragontamer]

A 100% chance for a x1.5 multiplier is kind of... bad.

Most people prefer Swords Dance... which stacks with Life Orb. You now have a 100% chance to a x2 multiplier on top of using an item-slot that has x1.3 multiplier (ie: Life Orb). You're losing not only a potential Swords Dance by wasting a turn with Focus Energy... you're also wasting your item-slot on "not a Life Orb".

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Long story short, "relying on luck?!" Did you miss the 100% part?

No, I just don't see why you'd ever run focus energy over sword dance. Double attack AND 50% crit is superior to 100% crit any day of the week in my book even though luck does become a factor

 

[stage7_4]

Ugh. Will you please read all of it before calling me out? I talked about all that!

Yes. Life Orb plus swords dance/Nasty Plot will always be the superior option unless some weird shift happens and defensive boosting moves become the new stealth rock (which is sarcasm).

Focus energy + scope lens is only a considerable option if the pokemon doesn't gain any notable set-up moves (Examples being Hydreigon, the Nido's, Flygon, and Krookodile. Hone Claws and Work-up suck).

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Ugh. Will you please read all of it before calling me out? I talked about all that!

Yes. Life Orb plus swords dance/Nasty Plot will always be the superior option unless some weird shift happens and defensive boosting moves become the new stealth rock (which is sarcasm).

Focus energy + scope lens is only a considerable option if the pokemon doesn't gain any notable set-up moves (Examples being Hydreigon, the Nido's, Flygon, and Krookodile. Hone Claws and Work-up suck).

None of those examples get crit abilities (I've already expressed by opinion on using crit strategy on other mons) or crit moves (besides stone edge, but a 100% crit rate on stone miss isn't worth the set up). So even if you get the focus energy off, you'll still be relying on a +3 crit rate, so relying on luck.

 

[Screw-On Head]

None of those examples get crit abilities (I've already expressed by opinion on using crit strategy on other mons) or crit moves (besides stone edge, but a 100% crit rate on stone miss isn't worth the set up). So even if you get the focus energy off, you'll still be relying on a +3 crit rate, so relying on luck.

+3 Critical rate gives you 100% Critical Hit chance this generation.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Wow I hate changing gens. Anyway this is where I pretend to have been right all along to preserve my pride. My main excuse is misreading this post (what can I say? the mechanics thread dragged on for 42 pages and I get bored quick. This was the most recent post on crit rates and I was reading at 11:30 after staying up all last night to turn in a paper by midnight)

1: 6.75%
2: ???
3: 50%
4: 100%

Before passing out, I'll reflect a lot of people's opinions that using an item slot and a boosting move for a 1.5x boost is

bad.

I miss red, where slash had a 100% crit rate without boosting or items, assuming your speed was high enough. And Hyper beam had an effective 300 base power. Those were the days. (My 8th grade English teacher would be proud. I used all 4 parts of salvaging a lost cause! And here I thought English was a wasted subject)

 

[escarlata]

I honestly thought this thread was dead and only knew of the crit changes talked about in the Battle Mechanics thread (it seems all I missed was here). So again, sorry about that.

To actually add to the conversation, I wonder if any pokemon could take advantage of a 100% crit rate. Snipers come to mind (since their crit damage isn't too bad really), but others that carry focus energy but no boosting moves (like Hydreigon) could use it.

Something like his old set:

Hydreigon - Mixed/Scope Lens
Dragon Pulse
Fire Blast
Superpower
Focus Energy

It gains a 1.5 boost over the old 1.3 boost with life orb damage. It loses an extra coverage move (and roost, but without life orb damage that might be okay) and now has to get the boost in to be effective. It also can't run Draco Meteor since it doesn't want to switch out (maybe Superpower too).

No idea how it would play out though. Interested in exploring this idea (with other pokemon too of course).

As far as I recall, crit alsoo has the often forgotten effect of ignoring all stat losses on the attacker, which means draco meteor and superpower are actually very legit options

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

So, it sounds like unless your name is Farfetch'd or Chansey (which, if you're using a Chansey to attack, crits are the least of your concerns), you need Focus Energy to get a 100% crit rate, and unless you get Super Luck or are one of those two, you need a Scope Lens as well. Crits do ignore every stat buff or drop that would lower the damage (so a -6 attacker crit on a +6 defender does the same damage as an 0/0 crit) but keeps every one that would help (so a +6 attacker crit on a -6 defender takes both of those into account). Farfetch'd can run Slash/Air Slash/Night Slash/Leaf Blade, though this set is walled by Steel-types that resist Dark, (a.k.a. Bisharp) and Pokemon with naturally high Physical Defense, or, you know, anything that can survive a hit and a half from a Farfetch'd and hit back with the power to OHKO something with 52/55/62 defenses. But it could still be interesting in NU if there's anyone using defensive buffs (are there Curse users in Gen V NU? Do they seem likely to leave?) in the tier.

 

[stage7_4]

As far as I recall, crit alsoo has the often forgotten effect of ignoring all stat losses on the attacker, which means draco meteor and superpower are actually very legit options

I knew it pierced defenses but had to look up ignoring offensive de-buffs. So now Hydreigon can run a Draco Meteor at *1.5 power for effectively no loss in Sp.Attack, and switch moves whenever necessary. So, wowzers. Forget life orb, this now rivals choice specs (except the required set up turn and loss of a moveslot for focus energy).

Nidoking (and to a lesser extent Nidoqueen) deserve a mention as well.

 

[PokéPundit]

Re Draco Meteor: Kingdra gets both Focus Energy and Sniper. That means it can consistently dish out 315 BP Draco Meteors. (before STAB)
Kingdra probably has better set-up in Dragon Dance (so it can keep Swift Swim) but I felt it deserved mention as a UU pokemon.

 

[ctom42]

A 100% chance for a x1.5 multiplier is kind of... bad.

Most people prefer Swords Dance... which stacks with Life Orb. You now have a 100% chance to a x2 multiplier on top of using an item-slot that has x1.3 multiplier (ie: Life Orb). You're losing not only a potential Swords Dance by wasting a turn with Focus Energy... you're also wasting your item-slot on "not a Life Orb".

You know something with super luck and high crit moves like say absol, can run scope lens for the 100% on its moves, and can STILL Swords Dance.

Absol@scope lens
Sucker Punch
Swords Dance
Psycho-Cut/Night Slash/Shadow Claw
Superpower

As someone else pointed out even if it goes into negative attack stages due to superpower it will still deal damage as if it was at 0 attack stages with it's auto-crit move, and still has a 50% chance to crit on Sucker Punch and Superpower. Granted most people running absol now will be using absolite, but if you don't like megas or are running a different one, then this is a very real option.

Also as far as scope lens not being good on pokemon without a crit ability, if they have focus energy and don't have another reliable stat up option it is a real possibility. It's definitely a wall breaking option, which since defog is more common now screens won't be as much of an issue, so it won't shine quite as much as it should have, but as others mentioned you can spam Draco Meteor and the like.

 

[PokéPundit]

Absol@scope lens
Sucker Punch
Swords Dance
Psycho-Cut/Night Slash/Shadow Claw
Superpower

This is really gimmicky, Life Orb deals consistently more damage even if you don't factor in Super Luck - nevermind that relying on a coin flip for your damage on two moves is really, really bad. The advantage of being able to keep attacking with Night Slash after a Superpower doesn't outweigh that.

 

[ctom42]

This is really gimmicky, Life Orb deals consistently more damage even if you don't factor in Super Luck - nevermind that relying on a coin flip for your damage on two moves is really, really bad. The advantage of being able to keep attacking with Night Slash after a Superpower doesn't outweigh that.

Considering I would normally run absol with a focus sash over a life orb anyway I don't see this set as being that bad. Again the idea is that crits are for wallbreaking. Going through screens or bulk-up users, stuff like that. I agree it's niche, but having a powerful auto-crit move is nothing to be laughed at. The superpower is there because it can't hit dark types with any of it's other moves. The fact that It's high crit move ignores the drop from that is just an added bonus allowing it to stay in and fight, but is not the crux of the set. The reason I chose Psycho-cut as as the main move is that sucker punch is already a good stab, and you need either the psychic or the ghost to hit faries. I prefer psycho-cut because it does not make contact and is super effective against poison types which might switch in to resist a superpower. You are not relying on the 50% crit chance for your other moves at all, I would always assume that I won't crit and just be happy when I do. Rarely do I bet on a 50% chance unless it is my only hope of winning a battle (such as I have no way to take this pokemon down unless it hits itself in confusion this turn).

So for me this set is trading the safety of a focus sash for the 100% crit chance. Since sashes can be broken by hazards anyway it does not hurt to have a different item.

 

[Koindozer]

You're forgetting according to some, crit rate up moves were reportedly buffed as well this gen. Focus energy now supposedly makes non-crit rate attacks crit at something akin to a 50% chance, wheras a Farfetch'd wielding a Stick and using Slash will crit almost 100% of the time.

At least that's what they were saying over at the data collection and game mechanics thread.

Wait, Farfetched can crit almost 100% of the time??? I WANT A FARFECHED ON MY UBERS TEAM!!!
(After 10 consecutive losses)
Maybe I just need more farfetcheds on my team!

 

[ctom42]

Wait, Farfetched can crit almost 100% of the time??? I WANT A FARFECHED ON MY UBERS TEAM!!!
(After 10 consecutive losses)
Maybe I just need more farfetcheds on my team!

Not almost 100% of the time. 100% of the time. To my knowledge no one has reported a miss with stick and a high crit move or focus energy and a high crit move.

 

[DDRMaster]

Since no one's seems to have actually calculated it yet:

Crit Night Slash effective base power: 70*1.5=105
LO Sucker Punch effective base power: 80*1.3=104

So Super Luck Scope Lens Night Slash actually does slightly more damage than LO Sucker Punch while also ignoring Burn, Reflect, Intimidate, etc. and you can still use Swords Dance as well. Crit Psycho Cut will also obviously do more damage than LO Psycho Cut. Super Power also has a 50% chance of critting with this set up, so it will do more damage than LO Super Power 50% of the time.

As for Focus Energy, I honestly don't see it being useful. Scope Lens with a Focus Energy boost lets you always crit to deal 50% extra damage, but if you just went with LO, you'd do 30% more damage than normal without even needing to use a set up move. At that point, even a Howl (probably the worst set up move in the game) will let you do more physical damage and only slightly less special damage.

 

[ctom42]

As for Focus Energy, I honestly don't see it being useful. Scope Lens with a Focus Energy boost lets you always crit to deal 50% extra damage, but if you just went with LO, you'd do 30% more damage than normal without even needing to use a set up move. At that point, even a Howl (probably the worst set up move in the game) will let you do more physical damage and only slightly less special damage.

Think of it like a work up that you can only use once. Most of the time you don't use your boosting moves more than once anyway. But with this you have the ability to go through screens and defensive set up such as bulkup, curse, calm mind, ect. Again its niche, but not useless. There are pokemon who get focus energy who don't have any other good boosting options. And as someone else stated you can also spam draco meteor and overheat. I have a friend who runs a work-up hydriegon set. It is mixed and works quite well, but after it draco meteors it pretty much has to stick to physical. Being able to draco meteor repeatedly is easily worth the lack of life orb damage. And remember some pokemon with focus energy get high crit moves so they don't need to have a scope lens and thus can still carry a life orb.

Additionally a pokemon with sniper, such as Kingdra can take great advantage of focus energy and scope lens and now have a 2.25x boost instead of a .5x boost. Definitely worth while.

 

[stage7_4]

Isn't 1.5 the same as choice specs/band? Not being locked into it and ignoring draco meteor/super power drops is way better than life orb.

Having to set up isn't, but checks and balances.

 

[DDRMaster]

Think of it like a work up that you can only use once. Most of the time you don't use your boosting moves more than once anyway. But with this you have the ability to go through screens and defensive set up such as bulkup, curse, calm mind, ect. Again its niche, but not useless. There are pokemon who get focus energy who don't have any other good boosting options. And as someone else stated you can also spam draco meteor and overheat. I have a friend who runs a work-up hydriegon set. It is mixed and works quite well, but after it draco meteors it pretty much has to stick to physical. Being able to draco meteor repeatedly is easily worth the lack of life orb damage. And remember some pokemon with focus energy get high crit moves so they don't need to have a scope lens and thus can still carry a life orb.

Additionally a pokemon with sniper, such as Kingdra can take great advantage of focus energy and scope lens and now have a 2.25x boost instead of a .5x boost. Definitely worth while.

The thing is, LO already gives you x1.3 damage, which isn't much lower than x1.5. Ignoring defensive boosts doesn't seem worth using one turn of set up (and if they're at +1 Def, 2 hits of LO is essentially x1.733, which is more than the x1.5 damage from one crit after setting up Focus Energy). As for being like Work Up, Work Up LO gives you an extra 30% damage all the time while Focus Energy with Scope Lens gives you the ability to ignore rare defensive boosts (unless crits ignore Eviolite. If that's the case, then this would be a good strategy in lower tiers or LC).

I didn't think about Sniper, though, and the x2.25 damage from a Sniper crit is more than a +1 LO attack at x1.95x. Spamming Draco Meteor/Overheat/Leaf Storm is a decent idea for things that don't get other boosting moves as well, since LO Dragon Pulse only comes to 110.5 BP. Though +1 LO Dragon Pulse comes to 165.75, so anything with Work Up should just use that with LO.