Charizard X [2/3]

[Subject 18]

Yeah, you're right. I just didn't realize Mega Ttar was near that speed tier.

Why 8 SpD?

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard X: 141-166 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I used 8 for the ones that run 4 SpA EVs.

 

[skies]

I have one quick question - how is Hippowdown a counter?
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and Mandibuzz:
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 292-345 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
same with Landorus-T:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 306-361 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
or the bulkier spread:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 216-255 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and Slowbro:
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
...and Azumarill
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 252-297 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
and Talonflame is destroyed by Dragon Claw, wile 252+ CB Brave Bird fails to OHKO, and it isn't guaranteed after SR.
None of these care to switch into Dragon Dance Charizard and all of them are severely dented by them. Could anyone please explain how these are checks and counters?

 

[Colonel M]

Hippowdon is a check. Mega Charizard X takes a lot from STAB Earthquake at the least. Also, Jolly is a huge power drop - which is significant to note.

Adamant will kill itself if it uses Flare Blitz on Hippowdon - Flare Blitz's recoil is enough to succumb to Earthquake if Charizard is +1.

 

[Swamp Link]

Those are all good checks or counters because if they switch in as Charizard Dragon Dances, which it would need to, to be at the +1 that it is in all of those calcs, then they won't be OHKO'd and can threaten it with a KO or close.

 

[LeoLancaster]

The Speed Evs for the Bulky DD set and the WoW Tank set are listed as Spd. Shouldn't it be Spe instead? (If not, then the first set needs to change from Spe to Spd.)

I apologize if I am speaking out of turn.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

On the bulky set in 'Set Details' the 16 EVs to outspeed Bisharp should probably be changed to 20 to also outspeed positive base 60s or even 32 to outspeed Tyranitar before it goes mega and hit it with a Will-o-Wisp, I'm not QC though so feel free to ignore it :)

 

[mikelos]

i am working on a bulky defogger set

 

[Subject 18]

I'm going to go ahead and reject this set. There is no reason for Zard to be the one Defogging when there are better options in the tier (Zapdos, Mew, Latios, Latias, Mandibuzz, etc). Not only are you relying on a SR weak Pokemon (pre-mega evo) to defog but where exactly would you fit Defog on a set? You are already strapped for moveslots and adding Defog to the mix isn't help the situation. I can't really see a situation where Defog Zard would really be a good option.


Edit: Mitchhhhhh I made the change. Good find.

 

[nmitchell890]

Would Dragon Tail have any place on the Will-o-Wisp set? The ability to phaze and deal damage can help rack up with burn to make Mega-Charizard X an annoying son of a bitch. With entry hazard support, this might be enough to fend off Heatran, who lacks recovery outside of RestTalk. Thoughts?

 

[Subject 18]

You have EQ for Heatran so this shouldn't really be too much of an issue. As for Dragon Tail, I talked to Dice about this before and we agreed that having your only STAB move have a negative priority is not something you should want for this set.

 

[TheTraininator]

I'm surprised Thunder Punch isn't mentioned anywhere on here. Tough Claws Thunder Punch allows Char X to scare Pokemon who can normally handle it quite well, such as Slowbro and Azumarill. It may not be worth an outright slash with Earthquake and Roost available, but I think it should at least be put in Other Options.

 

[nmitchell890]

You have EQ for Heatran so this shouldn't really be too much of an issue. As for Dragon Tail, I talked to Dice about this before and we agreed that having your only STAB move have a negative priority is not something you should want for this set.

Fair point. If you opted to use Fire Punch over Earthquake would Dragon Tail become a primary option? Not that Fire Punch is a good option on a set focused on spreading burns with Will-o-Wisp anyway, I'm not sure it even deserves a slash any more as the pokemon given that Fire Punch is there to beat, Lucario, has fallen into obscurity since its Mega Stone was banned.

 

[Xallista]

Been toying with an alternative spread for Bulky DDance over at the discussion thread.

Charizard@Charizardite X
Blaze->Tough Claws
Jolly
232 HP / 252 Def / 24 Spe
-Flare Blitz / Fire Punch
-Dragon Claw
-Roost / Earthquake
-Dragon Dance

Jolly 24 Spe puts you at the same speed as Adamant 120 Spe.

This set prevents Scarfed Garchomp from OHKO-ing you after switching in to your first DDance (where you will still be slower). Also prevents OHKO Earthquake from Landorus-T.

Hide

252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 232 HP / 252 Def Mega Charizard X: 194-230 (54.6 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252 Def Mega Charizard X: 240-284 (67.6 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 232 HP / 252 Def Mega Charizard X: 288-342 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252 Def Mega Charizard X: 288-338 (81.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 440-518 (122.9 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You lose out on a lot of power of course (296 vs 391 at +0), but you get to tank priorities better.

 

[aVocado]

Shouldn't you mention how Adamant Outrage can let you kill some important Pokemon who you wouldn't kill otherwise? For example:

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 295-348 (97 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 397-468 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 276-325 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, after SR, -1 Adamant Outrage has about a 48% chance to 2HKO 252 / 244 Def Lando-T, but you probably shouldn't do that anyway.

And this one isn't as important, but it's something to consider:

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 450-529 (108.6 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 297-351 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just something that I thought is worth noting.

 

[Subject 18]

I know the calcs of Dragon claw v outrage. I'll mention them when I write it up this weekend.

 

[Amaan]

Shouldn't Roost be slashed first on the first set?

 

[Colonel M]

Hello Mr. Subject 18

I know you've been busy with things, but any progress on the write-up? Thank you!

 

[Amaan]

Bulky Zard X needs to be the first set. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/evolution-of-the-metagame.3502220/#post-5426541 This post pretty much sums it up. EQ should be slashed first over Fire Punch.

Also, shouldn't Flare Blitz be slashed first on the Bulky DD Set? Flare Blitz can help Charizard X wall break even as a bulky sweeper, and the recoil is easily healed with roost. I don't think that Fire Punch hits hard enough. Earthquake is a good option though. It also hits Bulky Ground types hard then EQ and Fire Punch (Such as Hippowdon or Landorus Therian)

 

[Oilpath99]

Bulky Zard X needs to be the first set. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/evolution-of-the-metagame.3502220/#post-5426541 This post pretty much sums it up. EQ should be slashed first over Fire Punch.

Also, shouldn't Flare Blitz be slashed first on the Bulky DD Set? Flare Blitz can help Charizard X wall break even as a bulky sweeper, and the recoil is easily healed with roost. I don't think that Fire Punch hits hard enough. Earthquake is a good option though. It also hits Bulky Ground types hard then EQ and Fire Punch (Such as Hippowdon or Landorus Therian)

I agree with you on the 2nd part, but no. Offensive Dragon Dance Charizard should still be the first slash.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Bulky Zard X needs to be the first set. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/evolution-of-the-metagame.3502220/#post-5426541 This post pretty much sums it up. EQ should be slashed first over Fire Punch.

This was actually brought up earlier in this thread, but I want to agree with the above poster and earlier sentiments that Dragon Dance needs to remain the first set. While Bulky Zard X is still a really good set, Dragon Dance is the iconic Charizard X set that defines its place in OU the most. It's still arguably the most powerful Dragon Dance user in the entire standard metagame, and it's that set that causes many players to mess their pants if they don't have a solid check prepared to deal with it. Bulky Zard X doesn't massacre teams in the same way Dragon Dance Zard X can, while the Dragon Dance set is the one you're generally going to prepare for the most when teambuilding. Its raw power and pure metagame influence are enough to warrant the first set.

 

[Amaan]

This was actually brought up earlier in this thread, but I want to agree with the above poster and earlier sentiments that Dragon Dance needs to remain the first set. While Bulky Zard X is still a really good set, Dragon Dance is the iconic Charizard X set that defines its place in OU the most. It's still arguably the most powerful Dragon Dance user in the entire standard metagame, and it's that set that causes many players to mess their pants if they don't have a solid check prepared to deal with it. Bulky Zard X doesn't massacre teams in the same way Dragon Dance Zard X can, while the Dragon Dance set is the one you're generally going to prepare for the most when teambuilding. Its raw power and pure metagame influence are enough to warrant the first set.

I meant Bulky Dragon Dance Zard X. Would that set be better off mentioned first than Offensive?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I meant Bulky Dragon Dance Zard X.

Ah, that makes more sense. In that case, I still think that the Offensive Dragon Dance set should remain first due to the offensive advantage that it has over the bulky set due to the stronger moves recommended. The fact that it's a greater offensive threat causes teams in general to struggle with it more, and it arguably has a larger effect on the metagame because of this, although that might change if Flare Blitz becomes a slash on the bulky set.

 

[Oilpath99]

Ah, that makes more sense. In that case, I still think that the Offensive Dragon Dance set should remain first due to the offensive advantage that it has over the bulky set due to the stronger moves recommended. The fact that it's a greater offensive threat causes teams in general to struggle with it more, and it arguably has a larger effect on the metagame because of this, although that might change if Flare Blitz becomes a slash on the bulky set.

Jolly should be slashed first on the offensive set, with roost as the first slash. The extra speed and power both help the offensive Dragon Dancer to be a better set. Flare Blitz isn't a super good option on Bulky DD Zard X, because the recoil kinda takes away the point of being bulky. Nevertheless, offensive Dragon Dancer is still the best Charizard X set.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Just putting my support out there for Offensive DD remaining first. It's dangerous, has great coverage, and is the reason why you'd ever consider running a beneficial nature on otherwise fine Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Excadrill, Kyurem-B, and friends. It's just really defining.

 

[dice]

I say Bulky DD first. Longevity is crucial to act as a ZardY check on offense / balance along with Scizor and Thund. EQ only hits Heatran anyway and obvious Scarf EQs/Outrages are easy to take advantage of lol