Choice item switcheroo? I dunno. I'm not saying it would be common, only that it would be JUST viable enough to have analysis on it. Quagsire has an OU strategy page, for example.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other 6th Gen Pokemon UU Candidate Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Ashfield
- Start date
- Status
I don't think Sticky Web alone will be enough to pull Leavanny out of NU. While it might be able to find a niche in UU (and in RU as well) with Sticky Web, it probably will still remain in NU. The thing with Leavanny is that it was complete garbage last gen; although its stats aren't bad, last gen Leav had a ton of issues. Firstly, Leavanny has a really bad typing. Bug / Grass isn't very good offensively, and attracts a load of dangerous threats, especially things like Chandelure and Darmanitan. The typing defensively is also pretty bad, with so many exploitable weaknesses, so Leavanny will usually cringe to many threats. It's also fairly outclassed by a ton of other Pokemon who give a lot more reward. Whether Leavanny finds a niche or not in UU I won't say, but it definitely won't rise out of NU.
leavanny will not make it in a tier full of crobat, darmanitan, weavile, and victini.
things that beat the leaf
crobat
houndoom
weavile
victini
registeel
sharpedo
yanmega
zapdos
bronzong
ferroseed
chandelure
arcanine
guarantee there's at least 10 more
Noivern is the second fastest user of switcheroo. Lets not forget whimsicott...
I dont see toed dropping fot several reasons. Unlike sun and sand its the only rain inducer. Hyperoffense rain is a perfectly viable strategy...
I dont see toed dropping fot several reasons. Unlike sun and sand its the only rain inducer. Hyperoffense rain is a perfectly viable strategy...
Well At least Weavile, Victini, Sharpedo, Bronzong, Ferroseed and Chandelure are going to be hit hard with Knock Off and X-Scissor, specially with Sticky web support and with a Swords Dance under its belt... I really think that Leavanny can be in UU easily since it does have some hard counters, it can take an important role in a team... or you don't use talonflame just because Rotom W is a hard counter to it?
Knock Off is really easy to counter (Mega Houndoom go!), and if you let Leavanny get a free Swords Dance you did something wrong. The problem with Leavanny is that ~half of UU checks or counters it, and it can't switch in against much. As a lead, I'd prefer Galvantula, because it can do damage right off the bat and it can actually touch Fire-types.
I've used LO Mienshao and it's still gonna be fun. The Knock Off buff helps it, though it doesn't quite score the 2HKOs it would like to, but hey, atleast Aegislash's Weakness Policy didn't activate!
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 192-229 (60.1 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 143-169 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 109-130 (38.3 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 190-224 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 169-200 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 231-273 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OK, what the calc claims as 2HKO are actually 3HKO, since Knock Off's power is gonna drop on the second hit. However, Cofag is left with so little health that it won't find much of a chance to set up, so instead of dealing with a healthy Cofag (if Cofag switched into Mienshao LAST GEN, it wouldn't take much damage, if any at all), you're now staring down a <40% Cofag with no leftovers recovery. Dusclops eats a Knock Off pretty well, but it loses Eviolite. Gourgeist is in the same boat as Cofag. Trevenant... it should be a 2HKO, Harvest will actually lead to its doom...
So against bulky ghosts, it pretty much never scores a 2HKO, but it cripples them. It's pretty nice that Mienshao has a way to deal with its worst enemies. Ghosts will not wish to switch into Mienshao. Huge change from last gen, where Mienshao was the biggest ghost magnet in the tier.
I don't have Stone Edge anymore (I use Fake Out/U-Turn/HJK/Knock Off) so there is a trade-off. It's always possible to fit Stone Edge on that set if you want to nail flying switch-ins, but I like the set the way it is.
Scarf sets actually have a fourth move to use now. The fourth move last gen was just such an afterthought. "OK. I'll use Aerial Ace, I guess.... specifically to hit Mienshao and Heracross and nothing else..." It was either that or HP Ice entirely for Gligar. And speaking of Gligar.... bye bye Eviolite.
Overall power creep will knock Mienshao down a peg, but the Knock Off buff really breathes new life into it.
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 192-229 (60.1 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 143-169 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 109-130 (38.3 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 190-224 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 169-200 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 231-273 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OK, what the calc claims as 2HKO are actually 3HKO, since Knock Off's power is gonna drop on the second hit. However, Cofag is left with so little health that it won't find much of a chance to set up, so instead of dealing with a healthy Cofag (if Cofag switched into Mienshao LAST GEN, it wouldn't take much damage, if any at all), you're now staring down a <40% Cofag with no leftovers recovery. Dusclops eats a Knock Off pretty well, but it loses Eviolite. Gourgeist is in the same boat as Cofag. Trevenant... it should be a 2HKO, Harvest will actually lead to its doom...
So against bulky ghosts, it pretty much never scores a 2HKO, but it cripples them. It's pretty nice that Mienshao has a way to deal with its worst enemies. Ghosts will not wish to switch into Mienshao. Huge change from last gen, where Mienshao was the biggest ghost magnet in the tier.
I don't have Stone Edge anymore (I use Fake Out/U-Turn/HJK/Knock Off) so there is a trade-off. It's always possible to fit Stone Edge on that set if you want to nail flying switch-ins, but I like the set the way it is.
Scarf sets actually have a fourth move to use now. The fourth move last gen was just such an afterthought. "OK. I'll use Aerial Ace, I guess.... specifically to hit Mienshao and Heracross and nothing else..." It was either that or HP Ice entirely for Gligar. And speaking of Gligar.... bye bye Eviolite.
Overall power creep will knock Mienshao down a peg, but the Knock Off buff really breathes new life into it.
Yeah... Fun fact about Leavanny. It doesn't learn sticky web, Sewaddle does. Sewaddle doesn't learn knock off, Leavanny does, it's a move tutor move.
In short, it's an illegal move combo. Same with Heal Bell. Masquerain suffers from a similar problem in that its preevo is the one that learns sticky web, so it can't use tailwind, defog (which is also an HM), air cutter and twister. Not the best design decision from GameFreak I've ever seen.
In short, it's an illegal move combo. Same with Heal Bell. Masquerain suffers from a similar problem in that its preevo is the one that learns sticky web, so it can't use tailwind, defog (which is also an HM), air cutter and twister. Not the best design decision from GameFreak I've ever seen.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
imo fake out is terrible and should be replaced with HP ice or stone edge but other than that I wholeheartedly agree
FFUUFUUFUUUUUU... i'm done... xD Leavanny to RU xD
Well at least until Pokémon Z gets out and Knock off makes it as a tutor... xD
Of course Masquerain doesn't need those moves maybe with the exception of Defog, and you can just use a Spinner or another Defogger if you want to use Masquerain as your Webber... IMO the Webber set should have Intimidate, Scald, Sticky Web, Quiver Dance and Baton Pass or Roost...
I've found that in UU you don't have as many of the absolute best players on the ladder as OU, but you also don't have to deal with terrible players when you start fresh on the ladder. Kinda like a tier filled with the upper middle portion of a bell curve.
I think the fact that there's not as many dangerous sweepers in UU promotes creativity. You don't have to be constantly pressuring these set up sweepers all the time and the pace is generally slower.
I think the fact that there's not as many dangerous sweepers in UU promotes creativity. You don't have to be constantly pressuring these set up sweepers all the time and the pace is generally slower.
What are you talking about? OU has much easier strategies and pokes to abuse. In gen v it was easier to rainspam in ou with torn t keldeo and genesect rather than build a balanced team in uu. All of the tiers have good players. Your post makes it sound like uu is full of players that couldnt hack it in ou.
There are plenty of sweepers in uu; np cofagrigus, subcm raikou, swords dance cobalion and virizion, dragon dance scrafty to just name a few. While uu promotes creativity (one of thebest things about uu imo) it has plenty of pokes that can sweep.
Swords dance and Calm mind sweepers don't increase the pace of the match as much though since you don't have to shut them down quickly so they don't outspeed you. Scrafty slow initially which gives you more time. Pokes such as Confagrigus (in trick room), kingdra can increase their speed, but there's not as many super dangerous ones (such as dragonite, volcorona, lucario since it is blazing fast and has priority, terrakion, thundurus, etc.) as there are in OU.
And I didn't mean to say that UU players are bad by any mean. In fact I think on average they are better. And last gen it certainly could be harder to build a balanced UU team than an OU. You still have tons of amazing players, who would and do great in OU is well. I just have found that I ran into players that were downright amazing farther up the ladder in OU.
And I didn't mean to say that UU players are bad by any mean. In fact I think on average they are better. And last gen it certainly could be harder to build a balanced UU team than an OU. You still have tons of amazing players, who would and do great in OU is well. I just have found that I ran into players that were downright amazing farther up the ladder in OU.
No offense, but I don't agree with that statement at all. If you let Virizion get a SD and you lost your revenge killer, you are in a terrible position. Between Leaf Blade, Close Combat and Stone Edge, it can 1-2HKO practically the entire UU, barring the bulkiest of pokes. Sitting at that 108 base speed isn't something to shrug at. That's one turn of set up. Now, if you had said stall is more viable in UU, then you are more correct. The offensive pokes are proportionate to the defensive pokes, which leads to a very balanced meta. So, it's not that the pokes aren't as offensive, because they are, it's that the defensive pokes are more viable. Look at the top UU walls we had in Gen V; Snorlax, Slowbro, Swampert, Roserade, Empoleon, Umbreon. Heck, half of these were OU back in Gen 4 and most of them got better in gen 5 and 6. Snorlax has Assault Vest now, Roserade is immune to all spore moves, thus no longer afraid of stray magic bounce Sleep Powders, RestTalk is a completely viable strategy once again.
Well of course the players would get better as you go up the OU ladder. Did you look at the top ladder players of UU? The criteria you should base it off are decision making and strategy, which is the only common denominator between OU and UU. You can try to compare Kyu-B to Kingdra, but what's the point? Obviously Kyu-B is going to be stronger, but you shouldn't judge the players by the pokemon used since that wouldn't be fair.
I don't mean to rant, but the Gen V UU, was leaps and bounds more fun than Gen V OU.
Knock Off has great coverage now and is a great scouting move. Nothing wants to take a Knock Off. The only viable switch ins are Megas which can't lose their stones. Knock Off makes Gligar and Cofagrigus nervous to switch in since they rely very heavily on their items and Gligar and Cof are considered checks to Mienshao. I would think HJK/Stone Edge/U-Turn/Knock Off would be perfect for non-scarf Shao.
its a tempting set.
i generally prefer to have Fakeout, HJK, drain punch, and u-turn, since it gives it WAY more lastability- plus, if your opponent sends out HJK bait, you can just drain punch without having to worry about protect or a ghost type switch.
Fake Out isn't as good as it used to be. Back in Gen V OU, Fake Out on Shao was great to figure out specific sets pokes ran. For example, Fake Out was great to figure out which Lead Politoed your opponent was running.
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 48-57 (12.5 - 14.8%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 71-84 (22 - 26%)
These were the standard Politoed sets; Physically Defensive Set (252/252+) and the Specs/Scarf Sets (4/0). It's such a different number that Fake Out was a safe move in this case without having to fear the dreaded scarf Hydro Pump. However, in UU, there really aren't too many pokes that run both offensive and defensive sets. It's almost always one or the other. You'll see a lot of bulky offensive sets (ala Rhyperior), but nothing as extreme as Politoed for example.
Drain Punch is okay, it's just with Regenerator heals it 33% every time Shao switches out. If you ran the above set, then TR Cofagrigus will be able to set up something reliably. At least Knock Off deters that plan.
Mienshao really isn't meant to last against anything, it's either a hit and run attacker or a set up sweeper. If you're worried about HJK bait, you U-turn out.
And, you're entirely right about Gligar and Cofagrigus hating Knockoff, so it is a good move. However, what I meant to say was that Choice Mienshao will not appreciate the move too much, as its more focused on dealing loads of damage, which non-STAB Knock-off doesn't do.
And, you're entirely right about Gligar and Cofagrigus hating Knockoff, so it is a good move. However, what I meant to say was that Choice Mienshao will not appreciate the move too much, as its more focused on dealing loads of damage, which non-STAB Knock-off doesn't do.
I'd probably recommend Stone Edge over Fake Out in general, but I wouldn't go as far as saying Fake Out is terrible. It has situational uses like breaking sashes (very relevant with Smeargle running around), stalling poison turns, scouting how much damage it does to Rotom-W to see whether or not its defensive. All situational and probably worse overall than the amazing coverage that Fighting/Dark/Rock would give you, but it's not terrible.
edit: I know Rotom-W isn't going to be in UU. Patrick made a good point above that scouting whether its offensive or defensive wasn't really that important above, but it can apply to say other Rotom forms
You Knock Off on the switch, and Mienshao's monstrous HJK is going to force a lot of switches. Ghosts are no longer safe switch-ins. With Patrick's set, the only thing I can think of that switches in is Mega Heracross. MAYBE something like Qwilfish, that would obviously like an item, but CAN function without it.
You lose a lot of coverage with that set. Drain Punch basically gives you lastability on the switch, or on a KO. If I'm that worried about lasting a long time I would rather go Regenerator and have better coverage moves. I'm losing HJK power in favour of regenerating HP, but if you're opting for Drain Punch over HJK, that's basically the exact same thing.
It does around 60% to Aegis-Shield with Life Orb. I guess Scarfed would do less, but it's not bad considering that's basically the bulkiest ghost. Being able to hit Chandelure without relying on Stone Miss is HUGE. Gligar and Cofag only need to be knocked off once. Every single time after that, you can just U-turn as usual and those 2 will be worn down that much faster
Last edited:
This is 100% correct. An Un-STAB dark move is terrible to be locked into, especially with Cobalion and that Justified boost. I don't care how useful it is in that case, Knock Off is terrible to be locked into, but great on LO sets.
Cobalion wasn't particularly common in last gen's UU, nor was it particularly difficult to check, so I don't really see the problem. Scarf Mienshao's fourth moveslot was mostly filler anyway (you either ran aerial ace to hit heracross or hp ice to hit gligar).
I was gonna post PO's UU ban list, but looking through it was complete stupidity. This basically sums it up.
OU: Bisharp, Galvantula, Kangaskhan, Klefki
UU: Kyurem(-B), Manaphy, Latias, Salamence, Terrakion, Chansey, Deoxys-D, Hippowdown, Keldeo, Cloyster (Debatable)
OU: Bisharp, Galvantula, Kangaskhan, Klefki
UU: Kyurem(-B), Manaphy, Latias, Salamence, Terrakion, Chansey, Deoxys-D, Hippowdown, Keldeo, Cloyster (Debatable)
- Status