Why should we care about dead people?

[UncleSam]

Guys, can you get back on the topic here?

Anyway, people keep saying "it's selfish to keep your organs after death" and, yes, that is very true. When did I ever say it wasn't? What I actually said was that the government should not be able to stop people from being selfish. People are selfish when they do all sorts of things that you guys would scream about if we weren't allowed to do them; indeed, Capitalism runs on the very notion that people are self-serving, selfish bastards.

Yes, it is selfish to keep your organs after death. No, that does not mean we can force people to give them up.

 

[Phantom_IV]

TL;DR.

Why do you respect corpses? Because they're property. I die, but my corpse is still my/my relatives' property. I've rented out an area ad infinitum to keep my property, and I expect it to stay that way.

Similarly, you shouldn't deface property without the owner's consent.

Last, there can be laws on where you can dispose of property. For sanitation reasons, the woods isn't a good idea. If people want to make their property into biofuels or fertilizer or w/e, so be it. But I have every right to be irrational with my property, like purchasing an area to put it in permanent storage underground and arranging contracts to protect it.

 

[vonFiedler]

Logically, yes. If everyone was thinking logically and was just and etc. it would be arguably the best system. However, people being people, it is not.

Then, logically, it is not the best system.

 

[cantab]

What I actually said was that the government should not be able to stop people from being selfish.

Err, pretty much every criminal law stops people from being selfish.

 

[Firestorm]

To anyone who wishes to just use people's organs without their permission before they die:If it were your father/mother/sibling/someone you care about, would you want to hold a closed-casket funeral for them? Would you want them to just be "dumped in the woods" or otherwise just "thrown out"? If you would honestly want to see your loved ones become crop fertilizer when they die, fine. If not, don't argue that other people's loved ones should be forced to.

Right from the FAQ page of the BC Organ Donor Registry:

Q: Can a donor still have an open casket funeral?
A: Yes. Organs are always carefully removed and incisions closed by a surgical team. The body is at all times treated with the utmost respect.

I signed up to be an organ donor a few days ago as it's super simple to do online in my province. It was a little odd doing it as you know you'll be dead but still look at the body parts being taken out and wonder if you want those on your corpse. It's the eyes in particular that seem to stand out as they're visible to others. I think a lot of people actually exclude eyes from what they're donating. I think I'd like to be cremated after death (firestorm right?) - and it is the custom in my parents' religion anyway - so it's not like I'll be super-preserved anyway! Not to mention I don't think I could bring myself to keep the gift of sight from someone.

I was actually thinking of how my parents would react as well. I didn't really talk to them about this and something tells me they'd be unhappy with my decision to let doctors poke through my corpse for parts if it comes down to it. I imagine they'll be at peace with it after receiving letters from the families of loved ones who might live because of me though.

 

[UncleSam]

Err, pretty much every criminal law stops people from being selfish.

No, every criminal law stops people from performing acts of violence or theft-selfish is wanting to keep what you legitimately gained for a bad reason, criminal acts are taking things (there are other criminal laws/acts, of course, but I am referring to the ones you referenced) you do not have a legitimate right to. Yes, there is an arbitrary line on what you "legitimately gained", but I'm pretty sure no one is going to argue you gained your body illegitimately.

What it comes down to is that criminal laws do not stop people from keeping what they gain legitimately, unless they also owe it legitimately (such as taxes). No, people do not "owe" anything to society necessarily, and cannot be forced to give back to society. Obviously it is the right thing to do, but that's not the point of this thread.

 

[Aqueos]

Fine organs but not the whole body. Besides at this rate we will be able to grow organs using stem cells by the time all of us on smogon are dead but that's another debate (we can already do it with bladders). Jack-Jack's example of bio fuels and fertilizer clearly state that the whole body (-the organs) must be thrown away. Obviously emotional attachments keep us from throwing the whole thing away. This is a debate about the whole cadaver not just the organs which is totally different. Also if religion states "You must have your organs in your body to have an afterlife" (well not so bluntly but still) it seems discriminatory to ruin there one shot at life after death (mentally or physically because we really don't know) and cause great pain to family members.

 

[SJCrew]

Tradition. Respect. Emotion. Our sentiments regarding the people we care about dying (or just the vanity of wanting a proper burial for ourselves) disallow us from doing something as cruel as grinding up the bodies of the dead for fertilizer. We cared about the people who died, and to signify that we show respect for their bodies, which hosted their very being for the entire time they were alive.

There are plenty of ways we could improve life on Earth at the cost of our way of life, but there comes a point where the rational mindset takes a backseat to the emotional wants and needs of people. We like our nice laptops, mp3 players, and game systems, and we're not going to give them up just to prolong our lives for about another year. There are other ways to go about this.

 

[Firestorm]

Synre really put it best with his explanation of our bodies as being symbols for the life we led. Those who were close to you in your life have this need to protect this symbol as it represents your life.

 

[Morm]

a tomb marker and partial remains can serve just as well in that reguard, Firestorm, and I'd like to think humanity is good enough to take solace in their loved ones organs saving up to a dozen lives (if it's a perfect scenario).

 

[Firestorm]

a tomb marker and partial remains can serve just as well in that reguard, Firestorm, and I'd like to think humanity is good enough to take solace in their loved ones organs saving up to a dozen lives (if it's a perfect scenario).

I'm talking about why we pay our respects to a body and treat it with respect, not about organ donation. A tomb marker doesn't stop the body from also being a symbol.

 

[Morm]

True, I was merely suggesting that a tomb marker can serve just as well and the body basically becomes flesh at that point. The marker outlives the body by an observed margin as a bonus.

 

[Aqueos]

OK but without the whole body the marker is worthless so..... Yeah it doesn't really apply.

 

[Firestorm]

OK but without the whole body the marker is worthless so..... Yeah it doesn't really apply.

Morm was saying that a marker could be a symbol for the life instead of the body which it could be and is in many cases where the body is not found. But that doesn't mean the body all of a sudden is no longer a symbol as well. In this case, the loved ones will be protective of both the marker and body rather than just the body.

 

[Jack Jack]

Do you have anybody you care about? If no, then that explains your question.

If yes, then I'm sure you'll care about his or her corprse when he or she dies.

What? not at all. When I miss my aunt, I look at the sky. I know she isn't in the sky, but she isn't in her body neither, so having a substitute for the body is not any less valid than having either the body or the ashes.

No, every criminal law stops people from performing acts of violence or theft-selfish is wanting to keep what you legitimately gained for a bad reason, criminal acts are taking things (there are other criminal laws/acts, of course, but I am referring to the ones you referenced) you do not have a legitimate right to. Yes, there is an arbitrary line on what you "legitimately gained", but I'm pretty sure no one is going to argue you gained your body illegitimately.

What it comes down to is that criminal laws do not stop people from keeping what they gain legitimately, unless they also owe it legitimately (such as taxes). No, people do not "owe" anything to society necessarily, and cannot be forced to give back to society. Obviously it is the right thing to do, but that's not the point of this thread.

What? But of course we owe things to society! In fact, we owe exactly everything to society. You can't have wealth if there is no one to value it. And I don't think you kill your food by yourself, which means you owe the matter with which your body is made to somebody. Yes, you paid that with wealth, but like I said, you need somebody to value your wealth, which means, ultimately, you owe your body to whoever set the value of your wealth, and that's a combination of the market and the government.

Also, speaking of matter, you are aware matter is not created out of nothing right? The matter making your body comes from the soil. And as the matter from the soil is used to make more and more humans, most soils today are on the verge of being completely depleted. Most of the time, chemical fertilisers are used to compensate. However, there is not an infinite supply of chemical fertilisers - they come from potassium mines and natural gaz- and in a couple of decades, we will start to miss out on them.

We need to return our biomass to the soil. Otherwise, a lot of people will die.

 

[Aqueos]

If you are predicting famine you really need to stop worrying. First of all we are nowhere close, and fertilizing the soil with our bodies in the greater scheme of things would piss bunch of people off, and do little. Secondly there is always the simple only 1 children per person thing China enacted years ago. By doing this we can simply stop famine by not having population go up. Third that is what crop rotation is for.

 

[Jack Jack]

Crop rotation used to work because back then, people would die and shit on their soil. Now it is not the case anymore. Matter is taken away from the soil, and it ain't coming back. It's absolutely unsustainable.

This is why we need to grind our corpses (and recycle our shit and urine, Nitrates are very important for plant life) into fertilisers. It's the only way to have an agriculture sustainable in the long-term.

Oh yeah, which makes me think, my piss used to be a part of me. it's no excuse to respect it, now is it? If my corpse deserves respect, why don't we respect my excrements ? Because I'm still alive? How 'bout those I make after my death. Do we respect those? How about the foul particles that emanates of my rotting carcass ? Do we respect those also ?

What if somebody forgot to mention he wanted his shit to get disposed of sanitarily in his will. We can't take that initiative now can we? Ain't that a little like, stealing ?

 

[Aqueos]

OH god how cold can you get. What you don't seem to understand is the spiritual connection for family. The reason we care about corpses is simple jack jack. One second it is a living breathing human being the next it is a corpse. If you cannot understand that people would morne their dead and how important a corpse is for that I believe you are the coldest human being I have ever known, for being very unccompassionate and almost incapable of feeling for others. Excrements did not used to be your best friend. A corpse that rots later is totally different. Jack Jack, the earth is practically unable to run out of nutrients any time soon due to the HUGE amounts of nutrients in the soil. Volcanic soil the last time I checked was not made fertile by a bunch of people pissing on it. We may need to reduce our numbers. FYI waste is recycled, it is filtered out of water and used. Also the water with waste in it is oten used to water plants. If you want to worry about an appocalypse, worry about global warming, or famine caused mainly by there being too many humans. Anyway, everyone who is buried will rot eventually, no coffin can hold up against time forever. Happy? Unless someone says I AGREE TOTALLY WITH YOU you will fight them tooth and claw until they agree.

 

[Firestorm]

Because your excrements are not considered symbols of your life. They are waste that do not signify anything. Jack Jack, you're getting extremely close to trolling territory with the outlandish posts you're making so I'd think about what you post before you do it. That post is absolutely ridiculous.

Aqueos, a child quota does not work as China has demonstrated quite clearly.

 

[Jack Jack]

Aqueos, I understand the pain that can be caused by a family member passing away. I felt it myself. I saw people crying at the funerals. I cried myself.

What I don't understand is the need for the body at the funerals. You said it's a symbol, but any other symbol can do, and bodies smell. It's not any "closer to the truth" to have a symbol, than a picture, than say, a potted plant for that matter.

 

[monkfish]

it's not just a 'symbol' though is it. your body is YOU. once you die it is the only part left of you that remains on earth and it is fully understandable that those who are close to you will want to treat it with respect. some of you seem to be ignoring the emotional side of death and grieving. yes, in a purely practical world it would be prudent to harvest the bodies of the dead, but we don't live in such a world. open your eyes.

of course, i have no problem with organ donation and i would like my body to be useful when i die. but a human corpse is not 'just flesh'.

 

[Alan]

and bodies smell

They perform a process called embalming which preserves the body and doesn't cause it to smell.

 

[cantab]

Jack Jack, look at your own title for the thread.

"Why should we care about dead people?"

People. Not bodies.

 

[Jack Jack]

People (last will and such), I got it. Corpses, not so much.

 

[Tayla]

Because corpses WERE the people. They are one in the same. The corpse used to house the spirit, the person someone loved. A body still looks like the person that died. You can't honestly sit there and post on these forums that you would permit someone to cannabilize the body of someone you loved. Grind it to pieces, slash it apart for food.

Are you fucking kidding me?