We need more transparency in the forums

[Matthew]

Let's face it guys, if you're in, you know what's happening in basically every aspect of the site. If you're not "in" the you just roll with what's happening and say "well alright, I guess this is cool." Honestly I think that is a horrible thing to have on a huge site like smogon, now I'm not saying that averageuser7086 should be allowed to make the calls and have a say; that part should be earned. However what I DO think should happen is we should open up all the so called "hidden forums" (bar the smog secret forum for obvious reason) and have them viewable by everyone on the site.

This is good for several reasons:

• Regular users can feel more involved just by knowing what's going on
• There will be no more big surprises, like the merging of cong and firebot
• People can have a greater understanding of things like the suspect process

MOST OF ALL

• People who are involved with aspects of the site (like C&C or Tournaments) can see up-and-coming projects, possible changes which may be implemented, and if they're involved enough, the may PM a badged user / mod for input.

This is clearly a radical idea, and one I don't expect a lot of people to appreciate. Since most people don't want the inner most debates being shown to everyone on Smogon (I mean some of the threads are a little...) But! Once again, I feel that doing a move like this would actually bring the site together, make everyone more involved, and maybe we'd get more input on these matters.

I'm usually not one for words, I like things short 'n' snappy, but I wanted to avoid posting this in the badged user sub-forum because, obviously, I am preaching transparency.

 

[Chou Toshio]

This is a good idea. In addition to all that Gen has said, I'd also like to give some imput as a recently badged user-- the badge-only forum is really cool. Seeing the inner workings of smogon really changed my perspective on the whole site. Hanging out with other badged members, reading the smack in MTIR, reading badge nomination threads to learn about the nominees and even where the commenters fit in . . .

. . . it all helped me appreciate Smogon as not just a Pokemon site, but as a community. We're not just here to play Pokeemans, but also to have fun.

As much stuff goes on back there, being more involved with smogon can definitely be classified as fun. There's a reason all the contributing members give so much of their own time and energy.

I think even if they can't post, showing the hidden forums to our users will give them a better understanding of who and what we are as a community, and bolster would-be contributors to appreciate the site more and get involved.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Hey, tell that to averageuser-Phillip7086.

Originally posted by fat phillip7086 in Smog 13 Interview

When I joined my first World Cup of Pokemon, our US West (Best) team decided it would be cool to meet up one day. Remlabmez, Scofield, and I decided to go spend the night at TAY's house, where we chilled like regular bros. That's when TAY told me about this mysterious place on Smogon called The Inside Scoop. He even gave Rem and me (both badgeless at the time) a sneak peak of this secret subforum, and I was sold.

Yeah, Phillip might not be the greatest user on the forum but he's pretty good.

. . .
. . .
. . .

Ok, but in all seriousness, we have a "sneak peak" at the forum to thank for one of our community's very best contributors.

I don't see seeing insidescoop as a big incentivizer to work for a badge, because frankly I didn't even know about its existance until I was badged. Heh, as an artist I didn't even get sent the introductory PM. :?

 

[undisputed]

The Inside Scoop. He even gave Rem and me (both badgeless at the time) a sneak peak of this secret subforum, and I was sold.

lol, that post by Phil definitely proves my point. He was at TAY's house, so he got a "little taste" of the forum, and after that he wanted to get in to keep up with the news. Or am I interpreting that wrong?

 

[Veedrock]

<-no badge, nor have I ever had one (that gave me inside access)

And I'm not sold on this at all, and you're not allowed to pull the elitist card on me.

People don't like change, and making overhaul changes (like a forum) public would lead to a lot of backlash and opposition for no reason other than "don't fix what's not broken."

Side note: I'm especially against the Tournament Directors' forum going public. If it's serious or controversial topic it's usually moved to PR for further discussion, but otherwise other decision-making doesn't need to be held in the open.

now I'm not saying that averageuser7086 should be allowed to make the calls and have a say; that part should be earned.

PR is public and people find a way to make their voice heard, either through a thread on another forum or by PMing a person with access. Now with threads on other forums, they may not have an "official" voice, but with things like polls it can easily be measured where the general public sits on ideas. The same workarounds will be had with IS being public. More on this 2 quotes down.

Regular users can feel more involved just by knowing what's going on

Being "in the know" =/= being involved. Especially when everybody knows. And above you just said people have to earn their participation..

There will be no more big surprises, like the merging of cong and firebot

This is an awful thing, large forum changes should not be made public. If a forum was public knowledge, people would not embrace it; instead they would be as vocal as possible to oppose it. That work around I talked about above? That would amplify in instances like this. There would have been a lot of backlash for a forum before it was even implimented and one of two things would happen: the idea gets shut down because of the outspoken masses (ie nothing on site will ever go into effect), or it goes through regardless and pisses a lot of people off because they were ignored. "But we shouldn't care about their opinion." Then why give them the chance to develop one? The way it is now a forum launched with doubts and some hostility, but now it operates fluidly. I can say with certainty that if this was public knowledge before launch there would have been a lot of backlash and would still be an issue now, if it ever took affect.

People can have a greater understanding of things like the suspect process

And this is another instance of where knowing a change is going to take effect would cause backlash.

This is a good idea. In addition to all that Gen has said, I'd also like to give some imput as a recently badged user-- the badge-only forum is really cool. Seeing the inner workings of smogon really changed my perspective on the whole site. Hanging out with other badged members, reading the smack in MTIR, reading badge nomination threads to learn about the nominees and even where the commenters fit in . . .

Hold on, what? The things you described and the way you described them should demonstrate why you're against this.

• Seeing the "inner workings of smogon" isn't exactly inner workings if it's all public. While it's concealed, it's a great perk to being badged.
• IS would hardly be a social hangout for badged members if everyone can see the topics.
• honestly nomination threads should never be public. PR noms aren't public (for good reason), and I can imagine badge noms are quite a bit more confrontational than those.

If it's such a cool forum, making it public would immediately make it "not cool." I'm saying this because without the appeal of the forum, there's one less reason to bother with getting badged.

lol, that post by Phil definitely proves my point. He was at TAY's house, so he got a "little taste" of the forum, and after that he wanted to get in to keep up with the news. Or am I interpreting that wrong?

undisputed is right here; Phil may have gotten a sneak peak, but he didn't have continuous access. Very distinct difference here. Not to say Phil wouldn't have gotten badged if he did, but there's a legitimate (and enormous) difference between him seeing the forum at will and him getting 5 minutes of ogling it. If something has to be learned from this, it's that IS should be more advertised as a perk to being badged, because a lot of users aren't even aware of its existence.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

um, yeah. you know we're bros, gen, but this is honestly one of the stupidest ideas you've ever had. insidescoop was made private for a reason.

 

[Matthew]

um, yeah. you know we're bros, gen, but this is honestly one of the stupidest ideas you've ever had. insidescoop was made private for a reason.

Why does the fact that the old insidescoop, on a smaller website, was hidden now mean that on such a larger scale it has to remain hidden? I figured we were done with the age of grandfathering in old ways, now is the best time to do it, with the start of Gen 5 and all.

I'll address Veedrock later tonight when I have more time

 

[monkfish]

i dont normally poke my nose into policy review business, except when it concerns the forum i moderate, but this is an exception - i really don't think smogon should make such a big leap. sometimes we keep things to ourselves because we need to.

 

[Chou Toshio]

UD/Monkfish-- I'm going to call you out and say that neither of your posts really say anything/make a real point.

Gen's being serious here, so you could at least layout some kind of reason.

'sometime's we need to keep things to ourselves,' if that's the case why did we make #insidescoop public? IRC is where main discussion goes on and things actually get done. If we're letting people see the channel, I don't get what's different about showing the forum. Sure, only certain users go on irc, but I'd be willing to bet that averageuser7086 also spends very little time looking at PR. In the same way, only a certain type of user would even be interested in looking at inside scoop-- often enough, the same type of user we'd want looking at inside scoop.

 

[Deck Knight]

Well, it's not quite The Inside Scoop if it's made public.

Though if something can be done to make the Badge/PR Noms still private then I think the forum could be opened up. There are some things that get really overheated in the nom threads and it isn't wise to have people keeping tabs on whether they've been nominated for something or not.

Veedrock does make excellent points though Chou. You can't just open up the forum to everyone, then presumably only have badged members post there. Forum mods WILL be bombarded by IRC Rage PMs and Rage PMs of the forum variety, which is a lot of garbage our policy makers shouldn't have to deal with every time someone is held breathless by a post that suggests things that never get implemented.

I disagree that people would not be lured into The Inside Scoop if the forum kept that name. The name BEGS you to come in ffs. If it had a different less conspicuous name but the same purpose it might be alright, but otherwise it's like a big fat sign that says "all the important people who decide your metagame talk about making changes to it here! Come on in!"

 

[Mario With Lasers]

People feel attracted to secret societies and the like because they're secret, and I wouldn't like to read through pages and pages of important shit unless I had a say on the matter. If you really want more people interested in reading IS, then make it more known by the community.
and why do I feel Chou has said more than he should have

 

[AlphaJolt]

I think that IS should remain a hidden forum. I don't have access, and I don't know the extent of what goes on in there, but its hidden for a reason, and its the same reason that not everybody has PR access. Only those who are active and care about contributing to Smogon in some way earn access. The vast majority of the users may use the Strategy Pokedex or post in Uncharted Territory, and some of those posters may be smart and help shape parts of the metagame, but those who really contribute to the site work in C&C, rate teams well, suspect test vote, etc. These are the people who show their dedication to the site, and in doing so, earn access to and are privileged to making the policy and shaping the site. By making IS, even part of it, available for averageuser7086 to see, even without posting access, we have several consequences: mods and badged users will be flooded with mostly stupid questions, comments, and hatemail by people who aren't smart enough to logically think about the changed being implemented, major changes (such as merging of forums or changes in suspect test voting) will be fought by users who think of what is best for themselves and not what's best for the site, and there is not as great of an advantage to being badged. While some badged users simply enjoy doing the work and the badge is a nice "thank you" to them in return, others see IS as the main motivation to get badged. If IS becomes publically viewable, less people will strive to be badged since they know what is going on anyway and can just PM a friend to post their ideas for them. If somebody is just going to bitch about the changes implemented, but is unwilling to do work to get badged and help improve the site, they in no way deserve to be even looking at IS; unfortunately, this is the majority of users on Smogon.

 

[Erazor]

I've been wanting this thread for a very long time.

Simply put, it's time for Smogon to be held accountable now. We already have this elitist image, and people put up with it. But the last few months have pushed Smogon over the edge.

This is especially needed for the suspect test process. I can hardly blame the people who think that suspect testing is biased/rigged. At some point it just feels like 10 people make decisions that affect us all, without bothering to think. A little more transparency would be nice. For all we know, it was already decided to have the Baton Pass suspect test in ADV - before the PR thread was made. How would we know?

 

[lilyhollow]

Would making IS public really solve the problem of there being "private" discussion? Wouldn't it just happen elsewhere? I mean, maybe there should be a greater degree of "transparency" on this forum (certainly there is some material in IS that isn't nearly "sensitive" enough to warrant keeping from people, I think), but I'm not sure making IS public is the way to do that.

 

[MapleSandwich]

I got this guys--it's our next April Fool's joke, orchestrated by Mekkah. Don't be pulled in!

No, but seriously, I think that we're a lot more transparent than your average site as it is with just PR, and there's a lot of things that (probably, I have no idea since I'm not badged) get discussed in private that would cause mass panic if they were to be taken as Smogon canon. I think this quote more or less best describes what should be taken into consideration here:

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it.

We can allow select person to be "in the know" safely. People, especially the average Smogon user, cannot be trusted with inside knowledge about decision-making ideas. Phil and Rem were definitely not average people, to be going to hang with TAY, so I can see the merit of the idea--it's just not one that we can afford to do on a wide scale basis. Perhaps we could open it up for prospective PR users who we want to stay involved, since that's basically exactly what the example provided was. But, by opening it to everyone, we'd destroy its ability to draw interest and just make it a shitfest for the policy makers, especially considering how much rage is going on over just these suspect tests.

 

[Erazor]

especially considering how much rage is going on over just these suspect tests.

That's just it. If people understood what goes into the suspect tests and how we make decisions, there'd be a lot less bitching.

 

[coyotte508]

If we made IS public honestly we could just merge PR and IS, and let the all the posters who have PR access post in it, that'd be more consistent.

But this means only dead serious topics in IS, things like calling out to other mods or private reasons for Leaves of Absence shouldn't be made public, as well as a lot of other things. Really if the goal is to be more transparent then a lot of the topics should be moved to PR for the sake of transparency, and let the ones that can't be moved in InsideScoop.

But then again, topics in PR tend to be filled with debates with a strong vocal opposition. Just imagine, if the topic about the merge of congregation and firebot was made in PR, how many pages of unhealthy arguing that topic would have had? And just look at how this topic is becoming. Do you want that for any decision Smogon takes?

Maybe make topics public once they've contributed a final say on a matter?

Whatever, I don't think this is worth it. Though, personally, I love reading debates in PR as a lot of users do, so if it's adopted then I won't mind it that much !

 

[Nails]

As someone pursuing a tiering contrib badge, I can say the main reason I've been trying to qualify for voting is to work my way toward getting a badge so I can get IS access, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The existence of IS itself is a great motivator and it shouldn't be changed.

With that said, controversial stuff (just look at the outcry about vgc in spl) should definitely be made public before it gets thrown at the public (edit: it should be discussed in public, that sentence is horribly worded). Stuff like tiering fits into this category too, as it tends to cause a shit storm no matter what happens.

 

[Ancien Régime]

as someone who was formerly badged, this is pretty stupid, sorry. part of IS is to discuss policy and stuff, kick around ideas, etc, before they're ready to go public. part of IS is also to talk about stuff that would be embarrassing, controversial, or otherwise unsuitable for public consumption.

We already have this elitist image, and people put up with it.

who the fuck cares? it was smogon's "elitist core" that made it great. smogon was better when it was MORE elitist and tight-knit, and i'd love to have it how it was 2-3 years ago.

 

[Alchemator]

I violently oppose this. There are some threads in IS that would be best kept under wraps.

If we can selectively hide threads though I'm all for this.

 

[matty]

I'm all for changing our image. Apparently we are the wizard behind the curtain according to all the other sites. I don't see any harm in letting some of what we do behind the scenes become public.

If we made IS public honestly we could just merge PR and IS, and let the all the posters who have PR access post in it, that'd be more consistent.

But this means only dead serious topics in IS, things like calling out to other mods or private reasons for Leaves of Absence shouldn't be made public, as well as a lot of other things. Really if the goal is to be more transparent then a lot of the topics should be moved to PR for the sake of transparency, and let the ones that can't be moved in InsideScoop.

And ya as other people said, maybe selectively showing threads is the best way. I mean there are definitely some things that shouldn't be revealed, but the most part, we don't have much to hide

 

[ENZ0]

Hearing that IS is more drama than anything else, and with public smogon sometimes going into their own clusterfuck rampages like that SPL discussion, I honestly would like IS to be hidden. Revealing it is unnecessary, and takes away the incentive of contributing to know what goes on in it. So yeah lets just keep stuff like this hidden that might be detrimental to smogon in its entirety. imo.

 

[Elevator Music]

The more I think about this, the more I find that it is a good idea 'conditionally'. It really would be nice for users to see threads after they have reached a conclusion. That way we don't have to worry about a flood of every random and their mother PMing badged members for their input (isn't that what PR is for?), BUT they can still see the decision making process involved. If for some reason there was a lapse of judgment in our decision making, it could be pointed out then. Before that though, I'm going to be honest, I don't really care what any random has to say.

I don't care if the stupid bullshit drama in IS is open for everyone to read. I originally thought it may be embarrassing for the site to see all of the drama that goes on behind the curtain, but I eventually came to the conclusion that it may be helpful for everyone to see it. TBH it may actually be a good thing; most of that shit may stop or at the very least be reduced if everyone can read it.

However, I draw the line at badge nominations. It is definitely a bad idea to have those public at any point in time, because I'm sure nobody wants to be flamed by RyEcHeW456 or w/e after objecting to their nomination. There are also maybe some select other threads that deserve to stay hidden..... but I'm not going to talk about those here because a) I can't (otherwise they aren't going to be secret much longer lol) and b) I don't have a complete opinion on them yet.

 

[Cyrrona]

I've always championed increased community involvement, and my stance is no different here. While I agree certain exceptions to the "no secrets" rule exist, I think we could certainly stand to bring the bulk of Inside Scoop discussions out into the light. I suppose the current forum could be made visible or another one could be constructed, but the concerns other posters have raised about needing to keep a couple particularly controversial topics under wraps are valid. Bearing this in mind, I think simply transferring a number of threads from IS to PR (and then continuing on to make most of our future threads in PR so we can maintain this new level of visibility) is the simplest solution. That way, we'll achieve the "transparency" we're aiming for and help the average user better understand the rationale behind our decisions while still retaining a private place for ourselves to post about badge nominations/assorted bits of drama that unfailingly come up from time to time.

 

[eric the espeon]

Requested post:

I think this is an important issue. Both ideas of opening it up and leaving it closed have its pros and cons. Leaving it closed allows the incentive of being badged, etc. Whereas opening it up basically allows more awareness as to whats really going on behind the scenes. I personally thin PR is a good enough place for users to find out whats going on behind the scenes. The only issue is that PR is not meant to be for that.

Bulbagarden has done something similar to this, they've made a development forum. This is a good thing because it allows more space for users to suggest stuff. Though the only problem is that the Dev forum is for users to suggest new ideas.

I think we should implement something like that where users can put up ideas and moderators can make threads about any ideas that they wish to release to the public, this way its a mix of both. Though the suggestions thing is not really necessary but the idea of having staff post new ideas, etc that they wish to release to the public will help. This would be a mix of both ideas, not revealing the secrecy of IS and still allowing a certain amount of public exposure to the discussions otherwise