Implemented WCOP Format (tiers)

[RoiDadadou]

voice support as small team. after careful consideration we think this is the best format by far.

Same, it appears after analyzing to be optimal for both bigger teams seeking renewal, and smaller teams wanting an easier way to incorporate new tiers in their players.
That is, if we implement, as validated per Malekith, that SV OU is a pickable tier.
But also, as suggested earlier, that:
- We go for a sending of tiers to the hosts in the following format: team 1 first pick, team 2 picks, and team 1 second pick.
- That we also could incorporate a ban system, which does not contain SV OU as per what Shiloh and Malekith have made evident: it allows for smaller teams to pick it as their tiers in case of reduced playerbase hindering tier diversity within them, while still usually maintaining not full CG OU with the two opponents picks.

 

[BIHI]

Supporting Malekith's idea, adding lower tiers (for absolutely no good reason) will significantly hurt the competitiveness of the tour compared to the two previous format so we should at least make it interesting and fun. I also geniuinely think that making a good LU is easier with Malekith's format as it allows each country to play around their strengths way more than w/e garbage format that was suggested by the TD team.

 

[Colteor]

Good to see people are finally realizing full CG OU is terrible and bad to see the suggested solution is adding SS or DOU.

I personally think what makes this tournament "weird" is the Round 1 format. For me, a player who has played this tournament a lot of years the problem is that Round 1 of this tournament is harder than playoffs (and super random), it makes no sense in a competitive scenario, and if we have changed the format of almost all the tournaments of the site, why not changing that stupid wild format.

When I managed the competitive spanish forum, we also had 3 official team tours, and one of them (the most popular one) had the following format:

X CG OU slots.
2 slots chosen by team A
2 slots chosen by team B

As crazy as you could think this is, is so funny and allows every team to have the edge in 2 slots where they are strong at, and CG OU still has the weight in the match (it could be 4 CG OU or 6 CG OU).

Of course, this format doesn't work with how Round 1 is right now, so I suggest making groups, like in real world cup, and it would also match with SPL/SCL, playing vs. other teams and qualyfing to play-offs. 4 groups of 4/5/6 teams in each group, and the best 2 advance to play-offs.

Seeds would also be a thing when making the groups, and the seeds would be determined by the place the team ended last season.

Last but not least, the "eligible" tiers would be listed before the start of the tournament, and I would suggest all the official tiers, which would be:

Old Gens: RBY OU / GSC OU / ADV OU / DPP OU / BW OU / ORAS OU / SM OU / SS OU
Low Tiers: SV Ubers / SV DOU / SV UU / SV RU / SV NU / SV PU / SV LC

I know this would be a big change to the tournament, but it allows every team to be competitive (4/6 CG slots + 2 chosen by what beneficts you) and the most important thing: Every matchup would be unique and thats so fresh to spectate.

Take this post with an open mind and I promise you world cup will be the best team tournament in the site again.

PS: The only thing to be discussed is if a team has to choose 1 old gen + 1 low tier (in his 2 slots) or it could choose 2 old gens/2 low tiers.

Peace.

Very much agree with this post, I've managed tours with tier picks in the past and they're always a blast. I'm sure it would translate very well to the wcop environment and it makes the tour a lot more enjoyable for competitors and spectators alike. Also helps smaller teams since you can guarantee your two strongest tiers are played each week instead of being at the whims of any static format we decide.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

Seeing discussions of adding back gens 1-5 now is super disheartening. A big reason of why we departed from the old format of wcop was because it was simply too difficult for a lot of the regions to field competent players in these tiers. Objectively speaking, the format change was a good thing, as evidenced by the new winners / finalists every year, so reverting back in this fashion will undo the progress we've made on that front. The timing of this tier suggestion is also appalling, Im sure most of us can agree that it is not feasible for people to pick up these tiers within this short of time (keeping aside the fact that ladders are dead for non adv / comparitively higher learning curve).
Obii said this in the context of the DOU slot, but I strongly resonate with the sentiment :

i think if we want the most balanced tournament where every team has the best chance of competing, the format should be 5 sv.
if we want something new and exciting at the cost of screwing over a few teams, go with 4sv + dou.
we should probably just be honest about that instead of making empty statements and be honest about what we want

Including the classic tiers would make it a monumentally more difficult task than finding a dou player for a lot of "non-major" teams. I will be the first to admit that yes, the same teams will likely be strong at the end of the day. But this last minute inclusion will take away any remote chance of a cindrella run for a lot of teams, given there was no prior communication regarding the same. If we are fine with stifling the growth of new playerbases for the sake of enjoyment of a few, then we can go ahead with this I suppose.

 

[Amaranth]

curious to hear an official TD stance on the tier pick format proposed by Malekith. he brought it up to me even before WCoP22, but when I brought it to the attention of the rest of the team (or hell even the tour policy forum, see here) it was always met with resistence, which was a bit weird to me, because it's clearly the best way to do anything other than all CGOU. but there's a lot of new people in power now, it would be great to hear if the proposal is not being stonewalled anymore.

full CGOU is an amazing format that led to some amazing outcomes (belgium and bangladesh, as well as UK's return, off the back of nothing but hard work, displacing lazy and complacent "big" teams - you love to see it - as well as the enormous growth of qualifiers in general)
but if this community decides they don't want that tournament anymore for whatever reason, then fine. let's get a good format to replace it though, tierpicks are new and exciting, masters tiers & a random assortment of lowtiers is not new and not exciting, worst of both worlds

 

[pj]

I think its noteworthy to point out that it is in fact easier to pick up cg lower tiers than oldgen tiers, as evidenced by how teams filled with new players have beaten more "experienced" teams in tours like uuwc and puwc. The lower tiers havent been around for long and are constantly changing, so you can match the best players after a month or so of laddering and playing. This is contrary to the less beginner-friendly oldgens which have a much steeper learning curve.

Team India is strongly against the discussion being held on pick tier format!

 

[Heroic Troller]

Absolutely in favor of Malekith's, the counter arguments have been very weak so far. Can small teams stop holding the tour hostage by shutting down anything that is remotly fun because "disadvantage"? Their existance is the disadvantage. They are the small teams and they won't get a full solid team in any format, because they are small. So if we could drop the pretense that wcop is a fair tournament if you avoid x y z formats when it's not, that would be good progress.
We have seen countless people in the past spls learn old gen tiers out of tiebreaks and making legendary upsets, this narrative that they are so hard so pick up is just poor excuses. If you are good at the game you can pick up any tier, if you are not you are losing in any format.

 

[Finchinator]

curious to hear an official TD stance on the tier pick format proposed by Malekith

Speking on behalf of myself, not the entire team

Here and here I brought up logistical and logical hurdles to that proposal. Overall, I think it is a creative idea, but it does not lead to a tournament that is balanced or fair to many regions. It contradicts a lot of what was requested in prior pages, too.

All in all, it makes little sense to me that we would go from a vast majority of teams clamoring for a more equal ground format (i.e: without 1-5, which numerous regions have said they cannot cover) to having a format that suddenly makes them have to potentially cover 15 formats. We would be seeing a lot of lopsided games and starts to series based on the tiers picked. It is unreasonable to expect these regions to cover this much ground as Dj Breloominati♬ outlines perfectly in his post.

We are going to see a ton of Troller RBY, Conflict GSC, McMeghan ADV, etc. types into regions like Bangladesh or India, who have recently developed an impressive group of CG players based on the prior format. I do not think anyone can truly quantify what is "fun" or not, but seeing a bunch of lopsided games or forcing people to take up new generations on the fly with so much room for potential varition in picked tiers sounds more frustrating than fun to me. This goes far beyond the normal degree of balancing or competition we try to adhere to in official tournaments.

In short: if we want the most balanced format, this is absolutely not the pick. If you have other sets of priorities, it is flashy and novel, so I get it, but I personally do not.

Personally I was ok with all CG OU like the past few years, but it became very clear that people wanted change -- that is fine with me. A good change that kept the playingfield (somewhat) balanced was proposed in the OP and then adjusted in the options Star mentioned a few pages back. The only gripes against it are silly ones claiming lower tiers ruin the tour (c'mon...it's 2024, not 2014).

adding lower tiers (for absolutely no good reason) will significantly hurt the competitiveness of the tour compared to the two previous format so we should at least make it interesting and fun

If you think there are no good reasons to add lower tiers, then I advise you consult all of the following posts and explain to each of them and the people that agree with them why their reasoning is bad:

• Luigi's OP outlining the importance of potential lower tier inclusion
• Star's post explaining the appeal of the combined format that started last year
• Lily's post on representation
• DugZa's post on lower tiers popularity
• Elodin's post on finding an intersection between lower tiers and old generations
• Eragon's post on DOU
• My post on misconceptions around lower tiers
• kumiko's post on the larger picture within the circuit pertaining to lower tiers and balancing
• My post on the barrier of entry for lower tiers being clearly lower than old generations

This is just from the first two pages -- there are plenty more that follow. Any claims that lower tiers hurt competitiveness or ruin the tournament are lazy and bad.

 

[Finchinator]

Can small teams stop holding the tour hostage by shutting down anything that is remotly fun because "disadvantage"? Their existance is the disadvantage

This is incredibly tone deaf. You cannot talk down to nearly half of the teams in the tournament like this. Their existence is a large part of why the tournament happens to begin with; your team or my team is not more important or weighted just because we have greater history of more players to pull from.

The tournament is never going to be fully equal because of the demographic based component, but the whole point of this thread is to find a format that at least makes it enjoyable and competitive for a majority of the community, not a circlejerk between the top portion of teams that can flaunt their range when others cannot come close to matching it.

 

[a fairy]

Myself, etc

I was surprised to see this format get so much attention. I don't understand it at all, it seems to be that it's just exacerbating the stated problems with old gens or with lower tiers - nobody knows them, sacrificial slot, isolating, etc. Instead of taking the two or three months to learn ORAS or DOU or whatever, the preference is to have three days to figure out which of your teammates gets put in that slot and figure out that tier? I've read the posts, I just don't understand the logic.

This format would be so far beyond what any trophy tournament does or has ever done, but maybe I'm coming at this from a different POV where that's more important. The closest thing I could think of comparing it to was the Championship in 2018 (something that was discontinued) and the format pick in Grand Slam playoffs. And that second one FMPOV exists only because there is nothing better, and is certainly not something that should be emulated. I think there should be an expectation in trophy tours of how they are structured, and this isn't it.

I expressed in TD chat that I wasn't intending to post on this topic, because I don't currently have the bandwidth to give it more discussion or attention with my current medical situation and calendar. So, my apologies to anyone who would like to enlighten me to the advantages of this format, I've read your posts but I don't get it (and where I do understand, I don't agree), and I don't have the time to get in genuine conversations. I appreciate folks expressing their thoughts, both for and against.

I don't have much horse in what the final decision is, but I have genuine concerns that adopting this format would cause serious issues, moreso than the current options formally on the table. Even if you disregard the grumbling about changing course from people who haven't felt the need to vocalize that are satisfied with Star's two options, I do genuinely think the format inherently has the same issues as everything else that isn't CGOUx8/10, but introduces additional problems or makes those problems worse.

I'm struggling to express myself well, so this post will unfortanately have to suffice.

 

[obii]

pros of the kith format (to me):
- its interesting and exciting -> it has a sort of "pseudo tiebreak" feature built into it inherently where teams have to pick tiers vs each other for their best players or pick tiers that they know the other team isnt very good at, tiebreaks are one of the most exciting parts of a tournament so to have this feature present already makes for more interesting match ups
- it makes team formation more interesting -> captains will have to take into account the possibility of many tiers getting picked into them and select dou players, lower tier players, old gens, etc and have them ready to go in
- it allows for certain players to participate who otherwise wouldn't -> iirc players like troller, conflict, etc and other old gen / lower tier specials have / will not participate in all cg wcop or even this new format but it allows them to participate via a flex slot making the tour more inclusive in a sense to many playerbases

cons of the kith format:
- its a logistical nightmare for hosts and delays rounds going up though this can be offset i imagine (but worth mentioning still)
- it is absolutely unfair to smaller regions like bangladesh, india, etc etc since they already mentioned lacking players for these flex slots so the best they can do is select cg ou which teams would already be prepared for
- one of the coolest parts of cg wcop was seeing certain players actually play cg who otherwise wouldnt, for example roro, xrn who to my knowledge is a dubs player, and 2 years ago kythr an lc main got his start in ou in wcop

just some thoughts i was having since on a personal level i like the kith format bc im always for something new and exciting but it cant be understated that this is unfair as hell to smaller teams and already makes an unbalanced tour even more unbalanced. just a question of what we want to do

 

[ninjadog]

I think the tier pick is easily the most interesting and appealing format, the idea that it disadvantages the 'weaker' teams is overblown to me.

I think these teams are either massively overrating their own players in OU or underrating the players they have in other tiers, an example being Bangladesh - in the tier pick format they could use Eniigma in LC, he literally went positive in SCL whereas their SV OU7 and 8 are not remotely close to being SCL/SPL starter level, sure they may be outmatched in what the other team picks but I would argue their worst OU slots would be just as outmatched, and Eniigma in LC would instantly being the strongest slot on that roster.

Every qualifier team would have cases like this, off the top of my head Argentina could have JustFranco in RU or zilo in old gens, Greece with Fear in GSC, Africa with Zs in PU or lokifan in LC (granted these players are on the roster anyway but I'm sure would be better in their home tiers).

 

[Heroic Troller]

This is incredibly tone deaf. You cannot talk down to nearly half of the teams in the tournament like this. Their existence is a large part of why the tournament happens to begin with; your team or my team is not more important or weighted just because we have greater history of more players to pull from.

The tournament is never going to be fully equal because of the demographic based component, but the whole point of this thread is to find a format that at least makes it enjoyable and competitive for a majority of the community, not a circlejerk between the top portion of teams that can flaunt their range when others cannot come close to matching it.

Your post is as tone deaf as mine's, i'm not insulting small teams because they are small. I'm targetting arguments that are clearly defeatist in nature, old gens taking 1 year to pick up? Nice bed time fairy tale we got there. The most fair wcop can get is full cg ou, but it's also the most boring it can be (no shades at sv, no tier can withstand x8 slots, none). The goal of these big team tours, what sets them apart from roapl for example is the hype, they want to have big viewers and lobby go banana at crits, miss, strange techs. The hype behind wcop is very important, if a lot of people don't even bother to watch your finals, it's a big problem.
Instead of taking it as a challenge to learn something, they are already whining. They built this idea that it's unfair to learn, so they don't have to try, don't have to discover that maybe they are just bad. Pokemon added mechanics gen by gen, the more you go back the easier it is.
Gsc for example that everyone thinks is as hard as a language to pick up: fixed speeds, 3 viable items, max evs so you can always calc perfectly, can account for the full coverage of everything, very basic hazards tug of war with 3 viable spinners 3 viable spikers only.
It literally takes as much time to learn old gens that are ridicolously simple than it takes to account for every iron valiant set.
So yeah i will gracefully take my call out on being rude, i was, indeed. But also not gonna take this jab as if i am the big corporation that tried to silence the weaks to make profit, i'm calling out on bullshit here, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Astoria]

frfr smogon has a once in a lifetime opportunity to bring its different communities together and try something fresh that many people seem to be very hyped about as it has not been tried before. the world cup roosters have evolved and changed a lot since full CG OU was introduced and I feel like the proposed format would be a nice balance between old and new. It would honor the roosters and quality that these teams have built over the last few years of CG OU while giving some of the discarded oldgen players a new opportunity to shine for their nation.
The proposed format only really makes sense for Wcop and National Teams imo as it incentives them to improve and build up their team year after year while giving lesser known players the chance to participate by grinding various tiers to have an interesting profile as a flex player for the team so to say. We should be bold and try it out.
Also about the "its unfair/unbalanced because we don't have oldgen players" argument: ROA Wcup literally had 25 teams sign up.
Done sharing my propaganda for today.

 

[Amaranth]

i just really hope we don't get an awful midground "solution" that is actually just not good at delivering on the positives of either format.

full CG 8 slots gives any team a realistic shot at a cinderella run if they put effort into having good meta reads and really being on top of their game. if you are active and you are in good form, your team can win the tournament - it's as simple as that. you don't need to be a big region, and you don't need the deepest player pool with dozens on dozens of candidates, you just need to really try, and as long as you're on top of your game you will exceed expectations. the best teams rise to the top consistently. full CG has been a massive success for competitiveness, and that is the main draw of the format. it might not be the most fun, but it is definitely the best competitive experience. i don't think you can argue with the results, new winners every year, deserved every year, new teams actually able to rise up from qualifiers and be rewarded for their efforts, and so on.

tier pick gives every team a slot where their very best players can shine, provides a lot of variety, rewards good management styles and roster construction, and allows us to see more of the things that I'm sure 90%+ of people will agree are always good to see - great players putting on great performances in their best tiers. it will foster growth across all smogon tiers as many players will be encouraged to specialize in tiers that might not get quite as much love otherwise. and it definitely never gets boring.


the compromise format with SS/SM/Ubers/UU is just the worst of both worlds. it's as hostile to new teams as tier pick if not more (at least with tier pick they can let their star players shine - see eniigma mentioned above, but I could name solid star picks for a majority of qualifier teams), and it's basically as boring as full CG (your solution for more entertainment is adding SS OU? really?). it has all of the downsides and none of the positives.

i'm still on team full CG, i think the format is wonderful. but if you're going to move away from it in the name of entertainment value, then at least please deliver on that premise - give us tier picks

 

[clean]

Posting in support of having a fixed tier format in the upcoming wcop - i.e. full CG OU or one of Star's proposed formats.


While I think Malekith's format is interesting in theory, in practice it only serves to widen the gap between the top teams and underogs. I recognize that the tournament is inherently unfair, but I see no reason to make it harder for smaller teams to compete. Top teams will win most of the time in any format, anyone pedaling this "skill issue, l2p" nonsense to argue for tier picks is being disingenuous. All anyone wants is to have a level playing field concerning the format - it's much more reasonable for all regions to prepare for a set amount of tiers ahead of time, rather than pray the tier roulette wheel lands favorably for them.


I want a balanced format - and the easiest way to do that is fixed tiers. Let's ensure that the tour remains playable for everyone.

 

[Eeveeto]

Despite being unlikely to play the tournament at all (due to mainly the stupid other Wcop thread), fully support Malekith's idea. In fact, I think SCL should have the same format but expanded with Old Gens Lower Tiers (and stuff like VGC, including the 2008 and similar formats) too, since its the least serious out of the 3 team tournaments anyway, so more wildness and Tier disparity would be welcomed there. Spanish Regional Tournament has been my favorite team tournament of Pokespain specifically due to this format, nice to see something similar on Smogon.

 

[16bit]

Before deciding which format is best for a tournament, I think it's best if you ask yourself "what is the goal of this tournament?" first.

I think the appeal of World Cup tournaments on Smogon is primarily due to being able to play with generally the same group of people year in, year out, working together to win the tour and see your work from your years together pay off. Community building play a big part into this - gathering rising stars and old faces alike and having them gel into a team's environment is a big part of what makes a WCOP champion. I think that's a core part of the competitive identity of WCOP and is something that should be prioritized when deciding what the format for this tournament should be.

The tier pick system proposed by Malekith is the system that best allows for community building of the formats that have been proposed in this thread. It is in a team's best interest to have both passionate lower tier/old gen mains to stay ahead of the metagame in each respective tier, while also having jack of all trades players who can flex into the opponent's chosen slot to mitigate the amount of "home pick" wins that your opponent gets. By valuing many different skillsets that players can have relative to the other formats, many more people will be able to be involved with their home country's team, and that's what I believe the goal of this tournament is: getting people from different 'walks of Smogon' together, with the common ground of living nearby each other/speaking the same language, to work towards a common goal together. Echoing the sentiment in HANTSUKI's post wholeheartedly.

 

[Glue]

I had a look with Team UK to check out Malekith's format, while we would be perfectly fine adapting to the format.
We as a team agreed that the format is very convoluted and has a lot of problems.

1) Outside of the play offs, how would you decide which teams goes first to pick. Would it be based on how the teams preformed last year? whoever ended up losing in the first round? what happens if two teams end up tying? You already have 1 big problem on your hands to make this format work.

2) I would be mostly ok with the format if it was only 4-6 SV OU + Old Gen OUs, However once you start to include lower tiers into the mix specifically UU, RU, NU and PU. These tiers are rapidly changing every month. You can play these tiers 3 months ago, Then you go back to it a few months later and its a completely different tier. Whenever its game freak releasing DLC for that year or a higher up tier like UU lets say for arguments sake; takes Cobalion & Amoonguss from RU to UU.

3) Not having fixed slots will blow hard for the old gen & lower tier players that want to play.
Lets be real here, whenever that you have a good old gen or a lower tier player. Someone will have to sit on the bench and not play depending on the tiers that get picked.
You could have a good UUer, but there can be a scenario where its never optimal for you or your opposing team to pick UU at all. This could happen for every week for the tour.

(Before the tour starts)

"Hey mate, We would be happy to pick you up for UU. we got some good cover for the other lower tiers & old gens so you won't have to worry about playing those tiers"

(The tour ends for your team)

"Sorry mate we couldn't play you at all during the tour, you were never an optimal pick nor the opposing teams picked UU, Thanks for sitting on the bench"

4) To continue from the last point, your UU player can potentially not play the tour from round 1 to all the way to the semi finals. Your team gets to the finals and suddenly the enemy team picks UU. Nobody else plays the tier but the UU Mainer in your team. I find it very silly that this scenario can happen for a Tournament as competitive as WCOP.

5) This format benefits teams who either have a player that can play multiple tiers and having a mainer that plays a low populated tier.
The more mainers and versatile players you have at your disposal, the higher chance your team will succeed. This is also including the fact that you need to make sure you have a solid SV OU line up in the first place.
Lets take Spain as an example who have a really good variety of players who are versatile like Soulwind, Garay Oak and M Dragon.
All they have to do is analysis the enemy team and pick tiers that the enemy is weak in. And just like that Spain have a major advantage against teams that may not be equipped for every tier. You can say Team Antarctica is strong in every tier but RBY OU & SV Doubles. If it turns out the opposing team have a great DOU & RBYer; they will have an major advantage.

6) Finally, if the format does every get approved and we stick to the tiers in Malekith's proposal, every team that plays in the tour would have to account for 16 tiers which is an absurd number. not only making sure your team has 4-6 SV OU players, but trying to make sure you can cover every tier to the best of your team's capability. Some teams will be able to cover all 16 tiers, however for others it can be as low as 9.

No matter what format we end up having, having only fixed tiers is the way to go.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Regardless of what’s decided re: tiers, I think the groups format at the end of Malekith’s post and further expanded upon by Drifting is the way to go. You could do this with all CG or with differing tiers, but that groups format is how I always thought these WCOPs should be and I know many others that feel the same way. It’s also significantly more enjoyable to watch as a spectator. I think all CG is kinda stale but if it’s all CG but in groups instead of pools it doesn’t seem as bad (no further comments on what tiers should be).

 

[z0mOG]

I think before any more attempts at debating for or against, and working out all the details of a complex new format like Malekith's, the TDs must confirm if this is even something that could possibly go through for this edition of WCoP. Star's post very clearly states:

"After reading through it and discussing within the TD team, we've decided on going with one of the 2 formats below.
1. 5 SV OU, SS OU, SM OU, ORAS OU, SV Ubers, SV UU
2. 4 SV OU, SS OU, SM OU, ORAS OU, SV Ubers, SV UU, SV DOU"

This may have changed due to the intense amount of outcry following the decision. TDs rescind decisions all the time under circumstances like this. But, if a format change this major is off the table anyway then its' a waste of time and cluttering the thread to worry about the fine details right now. Hence why a TD representative should really post some sort of confirmation in either direction soon.

Speaking personally and on behalf of my team, we would support a change like this with ample prep and planning time. We still feel the two formats locked in by the TDs suit this edition of world cup the best though. I'd love to help develop a fun exciting format right after this edition ends and we can gauge how the community enjoyed the OU/Old gen/Low tier mix.

 

[Malekith]

I had a look with Team UK to check out Malekith's format, while we would be perfectly fine adapting to the format.
We as a team agreed that the format is very convoluted and has a lot of problems.

1) Outside of the play offs, how would you decide which teams goes first to pick. Would it be based on how the teams preformed last year? whoever ended up losing in the first round? what happens if two teams end up tying? You already have 1 big problem on your hands to make this format work.

2) I would be mostly ok with the format if it was only 4-6 SV OU + Old Gen OUs, However once you start to include lower tiers into the mix specifically UU, RU, NU and PU. These tiers are rapidly changing every month. You can play these tiers 3 months ago, Then you go back to it a few months later and its a completely different tier. Whenever its game freak releasing DLC for that year or a higher up tier like UU lets say for arguments sake; takes Cobalion & Amoonguss from RU to UU.

3) Not having fixed slots will blow hard for the old gen & lower tier players that want to play.
Lets be real here, whenever that you have a good old gen or a lower tier player. Someone will have to sit on the bench and not play depending on the tiers that get picked.
You could have a good UUer, but there can be a scenario where its never optimal for you or your opposing team to pick UU at all. This could happen for every week for the tour.

(Before the tour starts)

"Hey mate, We would be happy to pick you up for UU. we got some good cover for the other lower tiers & old gens so you won't have to worry about playing those tiers"

(The tour ends for your team)

"Sorry mate we couldn't play you at all during the tour, you were never an optimal pick nor the opposing teams picked UU, Thanks for sitting on the bench"

4) To continue from the last point, your UU player can potentially not play the tour from round 1 to all the way to the semi finals. Your team gets to the finals and suddenly the enemy team picks UU. Nobody else plays the tier but the UU Mainer in your team. I find it very silly that this scenario can happen for a Tournament as competitive as WCOP.

5) This format benefits teams who either have a player that can play multiple tiers and having a mainer that plays a low populated tier.
The more mainers and versatile players you have at your disposal, the higher chance your team will succeed. This is also including the fact that you need to make sure you have a solid SV OU line up in the first place.
Lets take Spain as an example who have a really good variety of players who are versatile like Soulwind, Garay Oak and M Dragon.
All they have to do is analysis the enemy team and pick tiers that the enemy is weak in. And just like that Spain have a major advantage against teams that may not be equipped for every tier. You can say Team Antarctica is strong in every tier but RBY OU & SV Doubles. If it turns out the opposing team have a great DOU & RBYer; they will have an major advantage.

6) Finally, if the format does every get approved and we stick to the tiers in Malekith's proposal, every team that plays in the tour would have to account for 16 tiers which is an absurd number. not only making sure your team has 4-6 SV OU players, but trying to make sure you can cover every tier to the best of your team's capability. Some teams will be able to cover all 16 tiers, however for others it can be as low as 9.

No matter what format we end up having, having only fixed tiers is the way to go.

1) Both send the tiers at the same time to the host or snake. A-B-B-A. If you look for opposing weakness you are not gonna choose the same tiers, and if you finally do, what is the problem.

2) ??? Literally any format or tournament with Low Tiers lives with that, of course is more annoying than Old Gens, but every Low Tier player lives with that every single month of the year. Not mentioning SCL or Slam. Or past WCoP, qualifyers without DLC and the main event post DLC.

3) Welcome to having substitutes.

4) That can happen to literally any player in any team tournament, but at least in this format they can play their tier.

5) Every format beneficts some teams or another ones, this is not an argument. And having 2 slots you can exploit and 6 CG OU is the only thing that equilibrates the match-ups. There are ALWAYS going to be stronger teams. The Eniigma example is perfect, and they can win in their slot vs. ANY team, but CG OU #6 #7 #8 won't as we've seen during all these years.

6) And please, TDs and other people: Stop deciding for the players. Stop deciding for "weaker teams" the players know what they want, and forcing them to play a format/tiers they don't want to just because some people think "hey this is the best for you" is bullshit. They know what is better for them, or what they value the most.

 

[ziloXX]

1) Outside of the play offs, how would you decide which teams goes first to pick. Would it be based on how the teams preformed last year? whoever ended up losing in the first round? what happens if two teams end up tying? You already have 1 big problem on your hands to make this format work.

There is no reason to have an order, the teams simply send their picks each week, i don't understand why there should be an order, if a team thinks that PU is a good pick and the other team thinks the same, just let these teams play x2 PU.

Now we can have some extra rules here like you can't repeat a pick or not allow picking x2 low tiers or x2 old gens if people like this ig. For bans pick suggestion from discord the way to implement these could be at the beginning of the tour (or for groups and again for playoffs?), teams could send their 1-2 ban picks. If we make the bans week by week it would be very bad for teams like Bangla who could never have Eniigma playing.

2) I would be mostly ok with the format if it was only 4-6 SV OU + Old Gen OUs, However once you start to include lower tiers into the mix specifically UU, RU, NU and PU. These tiers are rapidly changing every month. You can play these tiers 3 months ago, Then you go back to it a few months later and its a completely different tier. Whenever its game freak releasing DLC for that year or a higher up tier like UU lets say for arguments sake; takes Cobalion & Amoonguss from RU to UU.

Hasn't this situation happened in some of the last wcop, with the qualifier meta being completely different from the main event due to some DLC? It's the same, people just adapt.

3) Not having fixed slots will blow hard for the old gen & lower tier players that want to play.
Lets be real here, whenever that you have a good old gen or a lower tier player. Someone will have to sit on the bench and not play depending on the tiers that get picked.
You could have a good UUer, but there can be a scenario where its never optimal for you or your opposing team to pick UU at all. This could happen for every week for the tour.

(Before the tour starts)

"Hey mate, We would be happy to pick you up for UU. we got some good cover for the other lower tiers & old gens so you won't have to worry about playing those tiers"

(The tour ends for your team)

"Sorry mate we couldn't play you at all during the tour, you were never an optimal pick nor the opposing teams picked UU, Thanks for sitting on the bench"

So is it better for a PU player never be able to be part of WcoP in his life because of the tiers defined in it, than to eventually not play during the tour because the possibility was not given? I mean, at least one format gives you the possibility of playing and be important for your country lmao

4) To continue from the last point, your UU player can potentially not play the tour from round 1 to all the way to the semi finals. Your team gets to the finals and suddenly the enemy team picks UU. Nobody else plays the tier but the UU Mainer in your team. I find it very silly that this scenario can happen for a Tournament as competitive as WCOP.

This is just one way of looking it, for my part, if I am a player with some skill in X tier and this tier appears for the first time in some decisive instance, idk it would be very hype for me

5) This format benefits teams who either have a player that can play multiple tiers and having a mainer that plays a low populated tier.
The more mainers and versatile players you have at your disposal, the higher chance your team will succeed. This is also including the fact that you need to make sure you have a solid SV OU line up in the first place.

Yeah, versatile players have an advantage here, but why is this a problem? They would have done something to have this versatility, because it is bad to reward their effort? Why not give people more reasons to play more tiers which benefits the entire site?

 

[Star]

I think before any more attempts at debating for or against, and working out all the details of a complex new format like Malekith's, the TDs must confirm if this is even something that could possibly go through for this edition of WCoP. Star's post very clearly states:

"After reading through it and discussing within the TD team, we've decided on going with one of the 2 formats below.
1. 5 SV OU, SS OU, SM OU, ORAS OU, SV Ubers, SV UU
2. 4 SV OU, SS OU, SM OU, ORAS OU, SV Ubers, SV UU, SV DOU"

This may have changed due to the intense amount of outcry following the decision. TDs rescind decisions all the time under circumstances like this. But, if a format change this major is off the table anyway then its' a waste of time and cluttering the thread to worry about the fine details right now. Hence why a TD representative should really post some sort of confirmation in either direction soon.

Speaking personally and on behalf of my team, we would support a change like this with ample prep and planning time. We still feel the two formats locked in by the TDs suit this edition of world cup the best though. I'd love to help develop a fun exciting format right after this edition ends and we can gauge how the community enjoyed the OU/Old gen/Low tier mix.

We have been internally discussing Malekith's proposed format so it is under consideration now. At the time of my previous post this format hadn't been brought up at all, so it obviously wasn't something we were thinking about. We narrowed down options based on what had been presented/discussed so far and came up with the 2 you mentioned.

There's clearly been a significant amount of support (but also dissent) in this thread regarding that new proposal, so we will consider it along with the 2 formats previously mentioned. Given how many times we've seen people ask in this thread for a format to be decided quickly so their team can prepare, we want to move relatively quickly on locking a new format down. I'd encourage representatives of teams, particularly smaller ones, to make their voices heard as soon as possible if they haven't already.

The format we end up choosing will be one of the 2 we presented before or Malekith's proposal, possibly with small alterations. Please keep the discussion limited to these.

 

[BIHI]

Posting again to say that Team France heavily supports Malekith's format.