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One of the only offensive switchins to Mamoswine; also checks some other stuff like Scizor, Mega Pidgeot, and Mega Manectric. Can Volt Switch for momentum, with the possibility of Firium Z to blow back Gliscor / Hippo. Weak to rocks, but it gets Defog now. Hard stopped by Alolan-Marowak and Swampert (unless you tech HP Grass), but it's definitely viable (even if it's no Rotom-Wash).
Jellicent: B to B-
On paper, Jellicent has a valuable niche as a Cobalion / Scizor / Infernape check, spinblocker, and stallbreaker. In practice, it just doesn't seem to fit on a lot of teams. 100 / 70 physical bulk is decent but not amazing, especially when you need to run a lot of speed to Taunt things (apparently some Alomomola are creeping Adamant Marowak now). It spinblocks Tentacruel and Starmie nicely, but new defoggers such as Gliscor, Hydreigon, and Serperior don't really care. It rose to B rank back when Keldeo was still in the tier, so it seems reasonable that Jellicent is a little worse now.
Lucario: B- to B
The Nasty Plot set has seen a rise in popularity, forcing stall builds to adapt. Vacuum Wave is nice for picking off Mega Sharpedo and new arrival Stakataka, two big threats to offense.
This mon is actually insane in a meta sans washtom. Offense has next to no consistent switch-ins to hurricanes, as both mane and maero only have one switch-in after rocks. M-pidge also punishes stall too, as builds lacking surprise mirror coats, m-aero, or some form of speed control are almost guaranteed to lose in the lategame unless they're able to time the combo of toxic+seismic toss correctly with blissey. Balance also suffers, as M-Pidge will have opportunities to set up on passive mons, as next to zero defensive switch-ins on balance have the ability to pressure m-pidge outside of muk. m-pidge's viability has been displayed in SPL too, with at least three matches using the mon, most recently in the lycans vs christo game where it netted two kills.
There's no reason it should stay at the same vr level as azelf, doublade, and nihilego. mon's fire and super fun to use.
This mon is actually insane in a meta sans washtom. Offense has next to no consistent switch-ins to hurricanes, as both mane and maero only have one switch-in after rocks. M-pidge also punishes stall too, as builds lacking surprise mirror coats, m-aero, or some form of speed control are almost guaranteed to lose in the lategame unless they're able to time the combo of toxic+seismic toss correctly with blissey. Balance also suffers, as M-Pidge will have opportunities to set up on passive mons, as next to zero defensive switch-ins on balance have the ability to pressure m-pidge outside of muk. m-pidge's viability has been displayed in SPL too, with at least three matches using the mon, most recently in the lycans vs christo game where it netted two kills.
There's no reason it should stay at the same vr level as azelf, doublade, and nihilego. mon's fire and super fun to use.
This monster of a mon should be where it belongs: in the S tier. With devastating power of the CB set, the sweeping potential of the BD set, and the trapping potential of perish-trap, Azumarill carves out its place in the S tier. With all 3 sets being extremely viable, one is usually guessing what set it's running. You guess wrong, and you're basically putting yourself behind the 8 ball.
Starmie --> B
Starmie has really fallen off tremendously. With the rise in alomuk and mega manectric, starmie is finding an extremely hard time in this meta.
Despite being host I have a few opinions of my own in regards to changes I think could go through (i've seen like one other thread host post opinions before so i'm sure it isn't taboo), in addition to a few nominations being made that I'd like to weigh in on. Hope you guys enjoy! For reference, the next update should be out on the evening of either Sunday or Monday, so feel free to give your thoughts on what you think should happen before then! For now, we're looking to talk about the meta without regard to Buzzwole, Breloom, or Mega Houndoom only because they're too new (or being suspected) to have a defined place in the tier quite yet, especially considering they currently aren't legal on ladder. Now, without further ado, here's some of what I'd personally like to see:
Mega Sharpedo down to A-
This is a bit of a tricky one, considering Mega Sharpedo still has a lot of prowess as a devastating late-game cleaner. However, I think that its viability is best reflected in A- right now given that metagame trends are harder for it to adapt to recently. Hydreigon and Mega Altaria have recently increased in both prevalence and viability (the latter is even running defensive sets more frequently than before due to its access to Defog), which really hurts Mega Sharpedo on account of its inability to OHKO them with anything while suffering from a KO itself. It also struggles significantly more now that Spikes offense doesn't run the metagame, which is due to the influx in Defog users since USUM, which has also increased the presence of stall. Mega Manectric, Scizor, Cobalion, and especially Azumarill are also big presences in the tier that further contribute to Mega Sharpedo's recent decreased viability, and it also struggles to keep up with the rise in Choice Scarf users like Infernape and particularly Latias, due to the latter's increased usage of Thunderbolt on revenge killing sets. Overall, it just seems as if it's harder than ever before to work towards a late-game sweep with Sharpedo, and due to this I'd definitely say that dropping to a rank with Mega Evolutions like Aggron and Beedrill is fair, since it's about as consistent as those two at this stage.
Gengar up to A-
I've wholeheartedly enjoyed using Gengar since it dropped, and think that it has proven to have more worth than anything currently sitting with it in B+. The thing working against Gengar the most in this metagame is Alolan Muk's presence, though that can be circumvented through the use of Destiny Bond, which has been finding itself onto the non-choiced and Scarf sets quite frequently lately, and it's also just worth noting that any offensive team lacking Muk is going to have a really hard time combating Gengar without losing a Pokemon. Not only is it capable of applying huge pressure to several metagame staples, like Primarina, Mega Altaria, and Azumarill, with its STAB attacks alone, but its Choice Scarf set is easily one of my favorite revenge killers available. Being able to revenge kill Mega Altaria more reliably than any other relevant scarfer is a massive boon, and thanks to its access to moves like Thunderbolt and Destiny Bond Gengar is fully capable of tailoring merely its Choice Scarf set to the needs of its team. A fast Destiny Bond to guarantee a sweeper's removal is huge considering this alone allows Gengar to cover a wide variety of threats teams will look to revenge kill, though it also gives you a way of turning the tables on the opponent if they try pivoting in with Alolan Muk. Overall, Gengar is a really solid pick right now due to its diverse movepool allowing it to adapt, alongside its ability to maintain consistency between several viable sets.
Lycanroc-Dusk up to C+
While this is definitely a less important nomination, I still think Lycanroc deserves credit as a Pokemon capable of totally taking offensive teams by storm. Setup can be initially difficult to achieve, though in the time it's been legal this guy has easily proven how difficult STAB Tough Claws Accelerock, Splintered Stormshards, and Drill Run as coverage is to deal with for the majority of offense. Priority is a huge distinction Lycanroc has over any of its competition (which is mainly Terrak), as it allows you to slightly circumvent the weakness to priority moves like Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet that Terrakion can't work around through just chipping carriers of these moves, those being Scizor and Azu, throughout a match. A +2 Accelerock will do around 55 minimum to both, which means that by the time late-game rolls around and they've taken some rounds of entry hazard damage a setup opportunity is all that's required for their removal. The better speed tier is also a big boon for not risking Speed ties against Infernape and Cobalion. Another thing worth noting is that despite its poor bulk, Lycanroc can seek setup against a lot of Pokemon that have been becoming better recently, which include Crobat, Alolan Muk, Moltres, and Mega Pidgeot. Overall, it still isn't great, though I'd argue that it's managed to carve enough of a niche for itself to justify placement in at least C+. Initially underestimated, its strengths over the tiers other offensive rocks are much clearer than most people would've thought.
Now that I have my personal nominations out of the way, I'd like to give some of my thoughts on the other opinions voiced in this thread:
Mega Abomasnow up to B: Agree I was initially wary of this nomination, though in using Mega Abomasnow on Trick Room more frequently I've definitely come around to it. TR's two biggest staples in Alolan Marowak and Stakataka have notable difficulties breaking past bulky Water- and Ground-types without sustaining a lot of damage in the process, which is why Mega Abomasnow is capable of acting as a great pick for the archetype thanks to its great synergy with both of the aforementioned threats. It perfectly applies pressure to the likes of Quagsire, Hippowdon, and Suicune, who otherwise are capable of troubling Trick Room, while the diversity between its SD and mixed attacking sets also gives it a fair amount of unpredictability and limits its defensive counterplay. I generally think that this big guy's gotten better as a result of Trick Room teams's need for a Pokemon that covers Waters and Grounds, and another small perk it newly has going for it is the decreased need to invest in Speed, which opens up the opportunity to run some HP investment to more comfortably sponge hits while firing off attacks.
Cobalion up to A+: Agree I've had a few people speak with me since dropping Cobalion, and I now agree it was probably wrong having it in even just A rank. Cobalion maintains consistency as a sweeper in the metagame due to its ability to capitalize on a lot of threats in order to set up, those threats including Alolan Muk, Stakataka, and Blissey. It also has plenty of versatility in the form of its Stealth Rock and newly risen Calm Mind sets, which are notable for combating stall quite nicely, and the great bulk for an offensive Pokemon is honestly an underrated perk it has going for it considering that it's capable of tanking a hit from and acting as an emergency check to things like Stakataka and +1 Mega Altaria if need be. Although its rank continuously fluctuates as of late, I'll personally maintain that dropping from A+ probably shouldn't have happened this time around.
Kommo-o up to B: Disagree This one has been a hot topic as of late, and plenty of the people I've spoken to about this Pokemon have been of varying opinions. I, however, find Kommo-O a lot harder to use than some people seem to let on. On paper it's an outstanding Trick Room check due to its typing and Bulletproof, though the choice of ability is a lot harder than just choosing Bulletproof given that without Soundproof it's preventing itself from adequately setting up on Sylveon, which is pretty important. It's also kind of a lackluster check to Trick Room if it tries running its best set in Belly Drum, since Trick Room staples will be more than capable of standing up to it when its HP is halved or even cut down to 25%. The SD + SR set has coverage issues due to being walled by increasingly prevalent fairies if running only STAB attacks, and I'd also argue that Kommo-O's setup sets are generally hurt by the presence of Dragon-type choice scarf users like Latias and Hydreigon, which are both really amazing right now and seen on multiple teams (it's also giving Mega Altaria free turns with its SR set more often than not). Kommo-O isn't a bad Pokemon by any means, though I personally think that B- suits it well due to its overall struggle to choose an ability, coverage issues, and inability to do everything that it wants to do that on paper, you think that it could without issue. Really don't know what's to come of this discussion, however, since I'm aware that some of the ranking council could disagree with me on this.
Thanks for reading, everyone! I hope you guys enjoyed, and make sure to get across any opinions you might think are important to express before this update rolls around! Thanks for the productive discussion so far :)
Infernape most certainly shouldn't be A+ imo. It has plenty of competition as a fighting type from breloom and buzzwole and even heracross. It has nice mixed attacking sets to set itself apart, i know, but shouldn't be A+ because it simply doesn't threaten teams like the other A+ mons.
I disagree imo, what sets Infernape apart from other fightings and allows it to threaten teams on equal levels to Hydra/Mega Mane/etc. is its versatility combined with power. basically it can be whatever you need it to be for your team, scarf's a top cleaner that can gain momentum easily and threaten other scarfers (bar latias) and still hit hard with strong stabs, boosting sets (np is the best one atm, swords dance is also an option as +2 electrium ohkos alo after rocks and other stuff) are top stallbreakers that find setup opportunities and just shred the playstyle in half. scarf and all out attacker sets alike have a great matchup against offense and stall alike due to their sheer attacking prowess and speed which allows it to dominate teams. even trick room (once alowak is weakened) isn't really safe from infernape entirely because vacuum wave beats staka and it can defeat and chip setters depending on which one it is. in comparison to other fighting types infernape has much more tricks up its sleeve and compacted in a few sets can handle many more threats. rise infernape to a+ for its versatility, power, and ability to threaten all of the prominent playstyles in the meta with ease.
Infernape most certainly shouldn't be A+ imo. It has plenty of competition as a fighting type from breloom and buzzwole and even heracross. It has nice mixed attacking sets to set itself apart, i know, but shouldn't be A+ because it simply doesn't threaten teams like the other A+ mons.
Breloom and Buzzwole are being suspected, not unbanned. Also, saying it shouldn't be A+ because it doesn't threaten teams like other A+ mons is not a justifiable counterargument in any way whatsoever due to its inherent vagueness.
azu should have stayed s rank; imho it’s always been a hair better than both serp and latias on a general level
dbond gengar is criminally underutilized and i agree with it rising to a-
heattom should have been ranked (c- is ok) literally last year because of its unique combination of shit it’s capable of checking/countering
likewise, entei should have dropped to c+ literally last year, since sacred fire has always been a rather mediocre niche
nidoking could probably drop to b rank since it’s slightly harder to utilize well atm, but tspikes are definitely still hella nice to use as a strong offensive mon
I still think slowbro and roserade are bad pkmns and i don’t care how much washtom’s removal helped slowbro since it was irrelevant to begin with, it’s not even good on trick room either lol
i also think gastro is on the cusp of unviability cause it has always been less viable than toad here to begin with
and idk why we’re talking about buzzwole and breloom when they aren’t even officially unbanned yet
edit: also kill ninetales and venusaur cause rip drought
gastro has a niche of recovery + curse setup, giving it slightly better matchup vs like scizor and co, altho the lack of rocks is really bad for a ground type
also idk how updated the rankings are rn but nihilego up in B+ seems a bit weird to me? I feel like on paper it seems pretty good but in practice I don't recall ever seeing it do much. it struggles with choosing a hidden power (ice vs fire generally) altho that can also be seen as an advantage as it can force good players to scout. is it B+ for access to rocks + T-spikes?
Kommo-o up to B: Disagree This one has been a hot topic as of late, and plenty of the people I've spoken to about this Pokemon have been of varying opinions. I, however, find Kommo-O a lot harder to use than some people seem to let on. On paper it's an outstanding Trick Room check due to its typing and Bulletproof, though the choice of ability is a lot harder than just choosing Bulletproof given that without Soundproof it's preventing itself from adequately setting up on Sylveon, which is pretty important. It's also kind of a lackluster check to Trick Room if it tries running its best set in Belly Drum, since Trick Room staples will be more than capable of standing up to it when its HP is halved or even cut down to 25%. The SD + SR set has coverage issues due to being walled by increasingly prevalent fairies if running only STAB attacks, and I'd also argue that Kommo-O's setup sets are generally hurt by the presence of Dragon-type choice scarf users like Latias and Hydreigon, which are both really amazing right now and seen on multiple teams (it's also giving Mega Altaria free turns with its SR set more often than not). Kommo-O isn't a bad Pokemon by any means, though I personally think that B- suits it well due to its overall struggle to choose an ability, coverage issues, and inability to do everything that it wants to do that on paper, you think that it could without issue. Really don't know what's to come of this discussion, however, since I'm aware that some of the ranking council could disagree with me on this.
I like your posts because you're always on par with metagame trends, real threats and niches, but I think Kommo-o should definitely rise. Back when it was RU, Kommo-o had a really good set in Mixed SR, and just like Necrozma (which is also amazing, Sacri' has shown that), it's a monster against most of the bulkiest archetypes. The only Pokemon that can switch into Close Combat and Clanging scales safely are Fairy-types, but Kommo-o's huge movepool allows him to pick between Ice Punch to OHKO Gliscor, Flamethrower to OHKO Scizor, or Poison Jab to lure these Fairy-types. It also has a great bulk that gives it the edge against most of the common removers (Serperior, Rotom-C, Gliscor, Empoleon, and Tentacruel). Dragon Dance is the other set it might run, and it's honestly pretty decent. After one DD, Kommo-o can outspeed Mega Aerodactyl and therefore most of the unboosted tier, OHKO Fairy-types with Poison Jab, and has a decent bulk. Its only drawback is being outsped by Latias and Hydreigon after one Dragon Dance, but Fairy-types and A-Muk are easy to fit in any kind of team. Oh, and btw, Belly Drum and SD + SR should never be used as they're really hard to justify over DD or Mixed SR and are dogshit. Kommo-o should definitely rise.
azu should have stayed s rank; imho it’s always been a hair better than both serp and latias on a general level
dbond gengar is criminally underutilized and i agree with it rising to a-
heattom should have been ranked (c- is ok) literally last year because of its unique combination of shit it’s capable of checking/countering
likewise, entei should have dropped to c+ literally last year, since sacred fire has always been a rather mediocre niche
nidoking could probably drop to b rank since it’s slightly harder to utilize well atm, but tspikes are definitely still hella nice to use as a strong offensive mon
I still think slowbro and roserade are bad pkmns and i don’t care how much washtom’s removal helped slowbro since it was irrelevant to begin with, it’s not even good on trick room either lol
i also think gastro is on the cusp of unviability cause it has always been less viable than toad here to begin with
and idk why we’re talking about buzzwole and breloom when they aren’t even officially unbanned yet
edit: also kill ninetales and venusaur cause rip drought
I don't really know if should be Unranked, but whether it is or not Slowking should be. I understand they do different things but Slowking is very poor in a metagame in a metagame of hard hitters like Scizor, Mega Beedrill, Mega Sharpedo, Heracross, and Krookodile, and soon mega Houndoom, Breloom, and Buzzwole. I can't remember the last time I have seen a slowking do anything notable and for that reason I think it should be Unranked.
I like your posts because you're always on par with metagame trends, real threats and niches, but I think Kommo-o should definitely rise. Back when it was RU, Kommo-o had a really good set in Mixed SR, and just like Necrozma (which is also amazing, Sacri' has shown that), it's a monster against most of the bulkiest archetypes. The only Pokemon that can switch into Close Combat and Clanging scales safely are Fairy-types, but Kommo-o's huge movepool allows him to pick between Ice Punch to OHKO Gliscor, Flamethrower to OHKO Scizor, or Poison Jab to lure these Fairy-types. It also has a great bulk that gives it the edge against most of the common removers (Serperior, Rotom-C, Gliscor, Empoleon, and Tentacruel). Dragon Dance is the other set it might run, and it's honestly pretty decent. After one DD, Kommo-o can outspeed Mega Aerodactyl and therefore most of the unboosted tier, OHKO Fairy-types with Poison Jab, and has a decent bulk. Its only drawback is being outsped by Latias and Hydreigon after one Dragon Dance, but Fairy-types and A-Muk are easy to fit in any kind of team. Oh, and btw, Belly Drum and SD + SR should never be used as they're really hard to justify over DD or Mixed SR and are dogshit. Kommo-o should definitely rise.
This is WILDLY false. I've used Kommo-o to an incredible extent and I believe I can say that I understand this mon pretty well. BD and SD + SR are great sets because of what they do differently. Belly Drum is an amazing setup sweeper with the ability to beat most phazers and sound moves which would break its sub. It also has the bulk to survive priority, something that setup sweepers usually have a ton of trouble with. It gets the opportunity to setup on most Bulky Waters in a 1v1 situation which is also really useful. Its main flaw is struggling to pick coverage moves as it suffers from major 4mss.
The SD SR set is really similar to what Necrozma Dusk Mane is doing in ubers right now with its own SD + SR Z-Move set. Its incredibly effective at role compression and while it can struggle with a few specific Pokemon it does its job amazingly well considering how it is compressing a setter and a breaker at once. I honestly didn't see merit in the SD SR set either until I tried it out and found it to be extremely effective.
The DD set is incredibly outclased by other DD sweepers like Haxorus and Mega Altaria. While Mixed Stealth rock isn't terrible in theory, I just don't find it very effective in practice as I feel an unboosted Kommo can be very weak, especially from the special side. It doesn't really have the speed to rip apart offense either so honestly I don't know where this "Belly Drum and SD SR are dogshit" is coming from.
While I also agree that Kommo should rise, I can't even believe that you said
This is WILDLY false. I've used Kommo-o to an incredible extent and I believe I can say that I understand this mon pretty well. BD and SD + SR are great sets because of what they do differently. Belly Drum is an amazing setup sweeper with the ability to beat most phazers and sound moves which would break its sub. It also has the bulk to survive priority, something that setup sweepers usually have a ton of trouble with. It gets the opportunity to setup on most Bulky Waters in a 1v1 situation which is also really useful. Its main flaw is struggling to pick coverage moves as it suffers from major 4mss.
The SD SR set is really similar to what Necrozma Dusk Mane is doing in ubers right now with its own SD + SR Z-Move set. Its incredibly effective at role compression and while it can struggle with a few specific Pokemon it does its job amazingly well considering how it is compressing a setter and a breaker at once. I honestly didn't see merit in the SD SR set either until I tried it out and found it to be extremely effective.
The DD set is incredibly outclased by other DD sweepers like Haxorus and Mega Altaria. While Mixed Stealth rock isn't terrible in theory, I just don't find it very effective in practice as I feel an unboosted Kommo can be very weak, especially from the special side. It doesn't really have the speed to rip apart offense either so honestly I don't know where this "Belly Drum and SD SR are dogshit" is coming from.
B+ → A-:
I'm all for this. After trying out SpecsGar and Z-Move D-Bond Gar on HO, I gotta say I like this mon a lot. Unless they have a Blissey / Muk / Krook SpecsGar just clicks Shadow Ball and it's kinda bonkers. And yeah Pursuit is broken but Muk is exploitable as shit + it gets boned by Trick (setup fodder) and D-Bond (frees up another Muk-weak mon to break thru), so in the grand scheme of things it's not that devastating. Haven't tried ScarfGar but compared to other Scarfers it seems eh outside of, like, fast D-Bond, but that's just what I see on paper.
Some noms of my own:
B+ → B / B-:
IDC what anyone says Nihilego is booty ass buttcheeks. Why in God's name would you use this over Nidoking. It loses to every mon it outspeeds that Nidoking doesn't besides, like, Entei and Kyurem... so imho its Speed doesnt' rly matter. Its coverage is neat but compared to Nidoking all it has is, like, Grass Knot for beating down Pert / Hippo, which tbf is nice but not B+ nice. It also doesn't really resist anything like Nidoking does besides, like, Hurricane, (Nido's frail and all but pivoting into Volt Switches, Klefkis etc is really nice for offense) so it has to rely on its special bulk to force smth like Gengar out which only works like once, which again isn't really enough for a B+ mon.
B → B-, if not lower:
Speaking of ass mons, why did Celebi rise. NP is ouclassed pretty much entirely as a breaker by Lati and Serp so its only real niche is as a fat Rocks mon, and don't get me wrong that set is annoying as shit (especially w/ T-Wave), but it's so awkward to fit on a team cause the only Waters + Grounds it 100% switches into and forces out are Pert + Hippo cause all our offensive Waters have a second STAB that it's either weak to (Knock / Crunch) or not fat enough to eat consistently (Play Rough / Moonblast). So you're basically a worse Amoonguss with Rocks... why use this lol
C- → UR:
Unless someone can prove otherwise I don't think CT'ing opposing Azelf offense is really big enough of a niche + D-Edge is unreliable as shit as a suicide move. Making the matchup vs one type of team just to get Spun / Fogged on is just bad.
B+ → B / B-:
IDC what anyone says Nihilego is booty ass buttcheeks. Why in God's name would you use this over Nidoking. It loses to every mon it outspeeds that Nidoking doesn't besides, like, Entei and Kyurem... so imho its Speed doesnt' rly matter. Its coverage is neat but compared to Nidoking all it has is, like, Grass Knot for beating down Pert / Hippo, which tbf is nice but not B+ nice. It also doesn't really resist anything like Nidoking does (it's frail and all but pivoting in and out of Volt Switches, Klefkis etc is really nice for offense) so it has to rely on its special bulk to force smth like Gengar out which only works like once, which again isn't really enough for a B+ mon.
I disagree with this. While Nidoking gives it competition, Nihilego has means of differentiating itself. Its defensive typing is definitely not great, but it allows Nihilego to switch into Mega Pidgeot and Moltres multiple times, which is pretty valuable since both are huge threats in a meta without Rotom in the tier. Its special bulk is also completely nuts, allowing it to absorb several special hits per battle, which is valuable for a relatively fast, very strong mon. It always lives a Specs Draco from Hydreigon after rocks for instance. I think the set which allows it to best differentiate itself from Nidoking is probably Scarf, allowing it to check stuff like Mega Aerodactyl and Serperior (it can also switch in on anything but Glare).
Moltres benefits a lot from current meta trends, such as the lack of flying resists and the omnipresence of Steels. Its offensive sets are not very hard to put in practise, since it finds so many opportunities to come in on so many Pokemon, like Serperior, Scizor, Cobalion, special Altaria, and most of its checks, such as M-Aero and Manectric can be easily chipped to be in range of Z-Hurricane. It's also one of the most reliable Defoggers out there, being able to switch into a lot of common rockers such as M-Aggron, non-Toxic Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Cobalion, which makes it a really good addition to stall teams (the fact that it can check a lot of common stallbreakers, like Heracross and Serperior, is also really cool). It still has some flaws, such as the 4x weakness to rocks, but there is plenty of viable Defoggers in the tier and the amount of benefits the player gets while using this 'mon are still huge. All in all, Moltres is a really big threat and I think that A- is overall much more representative of its place in the current meta.
B- -> B
Not completely sure why this is still sitting in the same rank as Pokemon like Haxorus, but I definitely think it should rise. Really good matchup against fat teams, OHKOing almost half of the tier at +2 (Alomomola and Mantine drop to Z-Sludge Wave, while Hippo, Empoleon, and Muk can't do much vs Z-Fire Blast). The fact that it resists Bullet Punch and is able to take advantage of Serperior, Cobalion, and special Altaria is also amazing for an offensive 'mon. Not to mention that a lot of its checks are so easily exploitable; Scarf Latias is prone to being Pursuit trapped, Muk can be chipped down, etc. Weakness to rocks holds it back, but it's much better in the same rank as stuff like Raikou, than everything else it was with in B-.
Don't have a lot to say about the other discussion points that hasn't already been said already, but I don't think Crobat should drop. It's not just a Serperior check like a lot of people seem to think, it has some other cool features that make it very useful. Super Fang, for example, is really interesting since it's able to weaken stuff that normally try to check it, such as M-Aggron. Works even better with Taunt, which also allows it to check stuff like Gliscor, Hippo, and fat stuff in general. And now, with the re-introduction of Buzzwole, there's even more of a reason to use it.
Ranking Update
Thanks for all of this week's thought-provoking discussion! Lots of good, well backed up nominations being made lately. Mega Houndoom will for now be added to a 'New Pokemon' rank, so feel free to discuss where you think it should come in at! Buzzwole and Breloom still won't be ranked, as both are still in BL for the time being. Anyways, here's what changed:
Rises
B+ -> A-
B+ -> A-
B- -> B
B- -> B
UR -> C
UR -> C-
UR -> C-
Drops
S -> A+
S -> A+
A -> A-
B -> B-
B- -> C+
C+ -> C
C -> C-
C+ -> UR
C -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR
Gengar's preliminary B+ ranking quickly proved to be selling it short, as its placement in A- is totally justified considering its insane versatility between multiple great sets. While nothing has necessarily changed for it since its introduction, the combined viability of Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Taunt, and its several other sets are simply too notable to keep it outside of the As.
Mega Pidgeot lost one of the main things holding it back in Rotom-W, which despite the still troubling Mega Manectric weakness, heavily improves its offense matchup. It’s also proving its worth as a stallbreaker thanks to the rise of stall and its strength against the play style with Work Up and Refresh. Overall a very solid pick that has responded well to recent trends.
I was honestly skeptical of putting this one through, though the increased usage of Mega Altaria on stall makes for a good reason to use Lucario over its main competition as a Nasty Plot user in Infernape. It still does face considerable competition, which is why rising further isn’t a likely possibility, though placement in B is fine for now due to its slightly stronger stall matchup than Infernape.
Salazzle has been picking up steam both in tournaments and on the ladder as a true anti-meta threat. It can find plentiful opportunities to set up Nasty Plot thanks to its good matchups against several large presences in the tier, while its Speed tier is also increasingly convenient. Overall a very real threat that is better represented up in B than with Pokemon like Florges and Snorlax.
With the addition of Strength Sap to its movepool Vileplume has been able to carve a very relevant niche for itself as a reliable check to multiple defining threats, some including Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and Mega Manectric. It’s still generally outdone by Amoonguss, but it now has a clear niche and definitely deserves placement in the rankings.
Cresselia is the best dedicated Trick Room setter available thanks to Lunar Dance and its bulk providing several setup opportunities. Due to the current popularity of Trick Room builds, this justifies a rank, though being pretty bad outside of this niche explains the low placement.
It supplies teams with a fantastic offensive check to Scizor in addition to providing Defog and Volt Switch support. The general usefulness of its typing and the good offensive presence it has with Firium Z allow the Heat to distinguish itself enough for at least a C- ranking.
Serperior may be among the tier’s most offensively threatening forces, though that doesn’t prevent it from not being as necessarily defining as what else is in S. Its lacking defensive utility and poor matchups against a lot of commonly used threats can make it awkward to comfortably fit onto a team, and neither of these fairly notable flaws really allow it to maintain the same influence as Gliscor or Scizor.
Latias is still one of the absolute best Pokemon in UU, though its influence simply isn’t up to snuff with that of Scizor’s or Gliscor’s. It’s certainly proven to be an adaptable Pokemon, though its utility sets suffer increased competition from Hydreigon since the release of Defog tutors, while overall it just doesn’t generally hold the meta together in the way that Gliscor and Scizor do.
Sharpedo can’t keep up with the metagame as well when Azumarill, Mega Manectric, Hydreigon, and Mega Altaria are all as dominant as they are. Its struggles against common Choice Scarfers like Infernape and Latias also cut into its viability, which overall makes it harder to work towards a late-game sweep than before.
Mega Absol is a bit of an underwhelming pick, especially considering its opportunity cost in comparison to the other Megas in B. While still very potent, it struggles to keep up with the increased usage of most Fairy-types, while also disliking the popularity of Choice Scarf users like Infernape and Hydreigon, which it really can’t combat outside of just switching out.
The nerfed utility of Sacred Fire fails to keep Entei very distinguishable when Infernape, Darmanitan, and Alolan Marowak all pose threats as Fire-type breakers with either better movepools, power, or overall utility. It’s just very underwhelming and could possibly drop further in the future.
Given that Drought is now banned, Ninetales and Venusaur are unable to carve niches for themselves that aren’t already possessed by better Pokemon of similar types. Venusaur may have potential as a moderately fast defensive Pokemon, though unless this is further explored going unranked is warranted.
Smeargle was the only one between these two to be brought up for a drop, but webs is a very hard playstyle to adequately use currently, largely due to Serperior’s presence and the current viability of TR and Aurora Veil. This makes both lowering in rank justifiable.
These Pokemon were both unranked due to their lack of valuable niches in the metagame. Aerodactyl struggles to maintain its niche as a suicide lead when Azelf, Kabutops, and even Lycanroc-Dusk generally outperform it for various reasons, while Slowking just can’t keep up with the constant metagame trends that go against it, which include Scizor’s continued dominance, the increased viability of Hydreigon, and the steady usage of Ghost-types like Alolan Marowak and Gengar.
Cobalion remains A
Despite my personal interest in seeing this change go through, Cobalion’s A ranking is currently rationalized through the popularity of Gliscor, which is a huge pain for it to deal with. While certainly one of the better Pokemon in its current subrank, it simply doesn’t maintain the same influence that Azumarill, Latias, and Mega Manectric do on account of its more apparent struggle to combat some other metagame trends as well.
Infernape remains A
It may be one of the better Pokemon in its current subrank, though its struggles in the metagame are apparent enough to warrant staying in said rank. It’s an amazing Scarfer, wallbreaker, and stallbreaker/sweeper, though all of its sets have increased competition recently (i.e. Lucario surging in usage as an NP user) and it generally just doesn’t warp the metagame around it in the way everything else in A+ does.
Crobat remains B+
Crobat’s vulnerability to Steels isn’t an insurmountable obstacle given its good synergy with several checks to them, like Infernape and Heracross. It’s also just a very valuable teambuilding tool, due to the increased usage of various Substitute users, which include Serperior, Suicune, and Kommo-O.
Jellicent remains B
Jellicent remains consistent as a defensive pivot due to the several switch-ins it can find, such as to Scizor, Cobalion, Infernape, and the increasingly viable Suicune. Taunt is an extremely valuable tool it has over its bulky Water-type competitors, and with the combination of Will-O-Wisp and Colbur Berry it often has ways around most of its paper offensive checks.
Kommo-O remains B-
Kommo-O has certainly emerged as a threat since the addition of some vital moves to its arsenal, and if running Bulletproof it can check Stakataka quite adequately. However, it struggles to choose an ability, doesn’t appreciate the increased use of Dragon-type Choice Scarf users, and struggles to keep up with the dominance of Mega Altaria. Its flaws utlimately rationalize staying in B-, despite arguably being one of the better Pokemon of its rank.
Mega Ampharos remains unranked
Despite its ability to strengthen Trick Room teams’ matchup against bulky Water-types, it also exacerbates the archetype’s already apparent weakness to defensive Grounds. Because of this, Mega Abomasnow is generally the better option as far as your Mega Evolution choice for Trick Room, which isn’t even a requirement.
Not every nomination that ultimately didn't go through was covered here, so feel free to PM me or post on my wall if you have questions about some other things that didn't end up happening. Anyways, it's time for our discussion slate, which is pretty huge this time, meaning we have plenty of things to talk about while we wait out this suspect test ;) Enjoy!
Current Discussion Slate
Azumarill A+ to S - It was initially dropped due to its lesser influence in comparison to the rest of S, though the community deserves to weigh in on the decision more than they did when it was initially made. Azumarill's versatility between three very viable sets could easily push it up to the highest ranking possible, though the metagame has clearly adapted to it in the forms of the increased usage of Amoonguss and fast Water resists, and threats like Latias more frequently running Thunderbolt. Whether or not this is enough to keep in A+ is worth talking about more in depth.
Starmie A- to B+ - although it is still an offensive menace, Starmie hasn't appreciated the increased usage and viability of Alolan Muk. Very dominant threats in Mega Manectric and Scarf Hydreigon also cut into its usability, which can be seen as grounds for a drop.
Moltres B+ to A- - While still not a wildly popular threat, Moltres continues to pull its weight in the metagame thanks to the strength of both its offensive and defensive sets. Beating the majority of Stealth Rock setters in addition to countering some really important presences may be enough for it to rise, though the Stealth Rock weakness and Mega Aerodactyl’s presence could definitely suggest otherwise.
Nihilego B+ to B - Gengar's reintroduction to the tier has hurt Nihilego in that it now has a lot more competition as a Poison-type special attacker. It has more of a limited niche now due to this, only really being able to pull off offensive Rocks/TSpikes sets without facing stiff competition. Regardless, the increased viability of Mega Pidgeot, which it can provide teams with a stellar check to, is something to consider in addition to the fact that it can also take on special attackers like Mega Sceptile and Mega Manectric fairly comfortably.
Celebi B to B- - Celebi rose on the basis of being generally better than what it was ranked with in B-. It also currently enjoys the recent surge in usage of Amoonguss, and has a few distinguishable niches over Serperior, such as its ability to take on the likes of Mega Altaria and with Groundium Z, Alolan Muk more reliably. Regardless, the competition it faces is still severe, especially considering how awkward it can be to fit on teams, which brings a drop into question.
Mega Abomasnow B- to B - It has a lot of worth on the tier's newly viable Trick Room teams as an outstanding offensive check to defensive Water- and Ground-types, which are known struggles of archetype staples like Alolan Marowak and Stakataka. It does struggle a lot due to its horrid defensive utility, however, which makes staying in B- plausible.
Lycanroc-Dusk C to C+ - while not a lot has changed for it since its introduction, Lycanroc-Dusk has proven to be more worth using than most players assumed. Swords Dance + Tough Claws Accelerock is an excellent niche that it has going for it, which despite its awful defensive utility, allows it to carve a niche quite comfortably, which could warrant a slight bump in viability.
Slowbro Unranked - it was once among the tier's most potent defensive Pokemon. However, it has continued to respond horribly to metagame trends for months, and can't keep up with a metagame full of Pokemon that heavily threaten it, including Hydreigon, Scizor, Serperior, and more. The main argument for staying ranked is its ability to check/counter Cobalion and Infernape, which is still an extremely valuable quality.
Aromatisse Ranked - Aromatisse is defensively eclipsed by Sylveon, though a ranking on the basis of its OTR set is definitely something worth discussing. Nasty Plot + Trick Room + Fairium Z is a fine niche Aromatisse can use to distinguish itself as an offensive setter for Trick Room teams, due to being surprisingly really hard to deal with once set up. It most certainly has a niche, which justifies discussion for a ranking.
Uxie Ranked - Uxie has a lot of use on Trick Room teams as a solid secondary dedicated setter. The main reason it was kept from a ranking this time was due to being generally worse at its role than Cresselia, which is something worth noting when Trick Room teams often don't require more than one dedicated setter (offensive setters aren't uncommon or unviable). However, it could still definitely be worth placement in the ranks due to its unique set of tools (which includes Memento, Stealth Rock, etc.), though this would also result in a Cresselia rise.
Mega Houndoom is also technically a discussion point due to currently being too new to rank somewhere, so by all means talk about that as well! With that, this update is concluded. Thanks for reading, and happy posting! :)
Uxie and Cresselia don't compete as Trick room setters because Trick Room teams traditionally use those as setters with the rest of the team either being abusers or offensive setters. If Cresselia is ranked solely for its niche on Trick Room teams, then Uxie certainly should too. Aside from that, I more or less agreed with everything that happened in this update. I'd also like to weigh in on one of the discussion points.
to S: Agree
Azumarill should absolutely be moved back to S because it should've never been dropped down to A+ in the first place. CB is still an absolute savage, being able to muscle past many of its normal answers with how strong CB Knock is and Liquidation spam blowing past bulky stuff that normally beats it like Mega Aggron. Also, the Sap Sipper set adds an element of uncertainty to players that face Azu, creating momentary hesitation that can end up screwing you over if you predict the wrong set. If you see Azu with a mon that hates Amoonguss, it's pretty hard to discern whether it's Sap Sipper Whirlpool to trap Amoonguss or Belly Drum to break through it with +6 Knock Off. Obviously Azumarill has plenty of viable counterplay and can be accurately scouted, but its incredibly threatening and a metagame defining threat that should be S ranked.
Neither Cress nor Uxie should move. I still think TR is still a very niche playstyle because Stakataka isn't really dependent on other TR setters. In an overall view, TR has become more popular, but not necessarily better (even with Stak and AWak).
Why would that mean Uxie shouldn’t be ranked whatsoever? No one is asking for them pair to go to the high ranks, but while we can argue all day about how much of a niche TR teams have in this metagame, their niche has undeniably grown and as Cress and Uxie are 2 premier TR setters that don’t forfeit momentum via Lunar Dance and U-Turn/Memento respectively they should definitely see a raise. Cress obviously brings better bulk and the option to bring one of your sweepers back which can be gamebreaking while Uxie compresses roles better thanks to the ability to run SR so I think having Cress one rank above Uxie is fine if you are dead set on Cress being more viable, or both in the same rank would also be fine, it’s only the C ranks so squabbling about it too much is pointless.
The hellhound has a niche as a Nasty Plot sweeper that can do severe damage to the likes of Mega-Altaria and Primarina with Sludge Bomb, as well as being a good offensive check to threats like Serperior, Latias, and Cobalion. It’s bulk is still passable allowing it to take at least one good hit to potentially setup Nasty Plot. However unless you want to use its good traits, you would rather use another mega to fill in the slot like Mega-Manectric or Mega-Aerodactyl. It’s typing makes its really easy to check by a good portion of faster threats and scarfers.
Azumarill A+ to S: Agree
Even though the meta is currently adapting to its presence like using fast checks and counters like Mega-Mane, Amoonguss, and Thunderbolt Latias, it’s still S rank worthy. Azumarill’s best tool isn’t Huge Power, or Belly Drum, or its typing. It’s Azumarill’s versatility that keeps the blue rabbit’s relavance from going anywhere. Band sets with Ice Punch scares Amoonguss into switching in as it 2HKOs it and forces it to switch giving you the opportunity to condition the opponent into thinking twice before swapping into Amoonguss again. Belly Drum sets beat Mega-Manectric since a 5+ Aqua Jet still OHKOs it and due to its valuable typing, it’s somewhat hard to check and is nearly impossible to switch into.
:Azumarill BD Calcs:
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 817-962 (189.1 - 222.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+5 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 334-394 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 466-550 (115.6 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Quagsire does beat the Belly Drum set, but is 2HKO’d by Band Azu
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even the Perish Trapper set has some nice utility on Stall or even Balance teams. This is why this thing is in need to be S rank.
Starmie A- to B+: Disagree
Starmie’s speed tier and wide movepool still make it A- worthy. The best value for Starmie as a spinner is its ability to scare every relevant spinner. Gengar is outsped and OHKO’d unless it’s scarf and the rest hate Scald (besides Jellicent which gets cheesed by TBolt). The argument that the increased usage of A-Muk automatically applies for it to drop but A-Muk doesn’t appreciate being burned by Scald and Starmie’s Natural Cure shrugs off status. Tho, the argument with Scarf Hydreigon and Mega-Mane is true, I don’t think it’s enough for it to warrant for Starmie to drop
Regarding MDoom:
What.
I got "It's not as good as other megas" vibes out of that, which might be true. Except you're ignoring it's a special fire type with Nasty Plot and enough speed to hassle just about every balance staple, with the secondary dark typing letting it beat a few of the water-types that would like to wall it. Add in Sludge Wave, and MAlt isn't safe either. And you want to put it in C+?
Dude, if this thing is anywhere below B it's a crime.
Probably a bit of an echo here and probably also incoherent but i've been told i need to post here more so here we go
--> B/B-
I'm thinking Doom deserves a rank this high mainly due to its various options as a fast NP sweeper allowing it to annoy fat teams (with Taunt, primarily, as i've found that to actually be a decent issue when I play stall on the ladder) and more offensive playstyles (with sludge bomb and its other tools) depending on what it wants to do for the team. From my time testing with it and playing against it I personally think NP Taunt is its best set and I wouldn't dare let it anywhere in the C ranks. The speed is actually really valuable on a mon like this for outspeeding stuff like serperior and non-scarf Latias, and while it's not meta-defining by any means, it's honestly pretty ok in the tier and I'd like it ranked in B or B-.
B+ --> B: AGREE
Honestly nihilego isn't unviable by any means, it's fine as a scarfer that can check mpidge and fairies among other sets, but with the introduction of gengar into the tier it really lost a lot of its niche imo. Also, it's pretty hard to justify just sticking nihilego on a team in any case, I've had to build around it almost every time I wanted to use it. It also really dislikes the rising popularity of Alolan Muk, and unlike Gengar it can't even use stuff like dbond or willo to hinder the muk during the pursuit trapping procedure. I don't think Nihilego should drop any further than this due to the rising popularity (and viability) of Mega Pidgeot and other flying-types, but i don't think it really deserves B+ anymore.
--> C?
It's a near-staple of Trick Room, a viable playstyle, so I don't see why it wouldn't be ranked. Simple as that.
