idk if its fine to link videos on this forum
but for the love of god watch this video. it's not the video I got this take from, but I think it's the one that explains it the best.
Onix Sucks and Why Pokémon Generation 1 Is Awesome (youtube.com)
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
but for the love of god watch this video. it's not the video I got this take from, but I think it's the one that explains it the best.
Onix Sucks and Why Pokémon Generation 1 Is Awesome (youtube.com)
fwiw linking videos is perfectly fine as long as they're relevant to discussion and not doing stuff you'd not be able to post in the forum regardless
This is still because TPC mostly do slow and defensive pokémon for these types with rock having abysmal sp. def too, grass is worse than both offensively and defensively but it has more varied pokémon. My take is that rock and ice are mid types, their great offense are hampered by their awful defenses and the worst type is Psychic.
The type chart is fine, a perfectly balanced one wouldn't work because different types have different trends in stat distribution, even if dragon and bug had the exactly same resistances and super effectiveness, dragon still would be better because it has more powerful pokémon. The only changes I would make is making fairy doesn't resist bug and making rock weak to ice.
Last edited:
My only contention is that this is true in theory much moreso than in practice. You have a decent point with something like Bug being early game, but if the Mons themselves are already designed in a way that lets them fall off, why cripple the type itself on top of that with resistances from Fairy, Poison, and Ghost, which seem like the types you wouldn't run into until past the point Early-Bugs would be phased out anyway? This is one example where I think the Mon design is at odds with the Type Chart, alongside the previously mentioned grievances with Rock and Ice getting bulky slow mons despite their terrible defensive traits.
I would also contest Fairy being a Lategame type, at least in the way you attribute to Steel and especially Dragon. Since their introduction in Gen 6 (where I'll give some leeway in this case for retroactive mons like ORAS Ralts and early-game availability to show off like Florges), Fairies typically are attached to Pokemon the game doesn't really seem troubled to give you early on (which in my book is when the Wild Pokemon Range is ~mid-Teens and thus probably after 2-3 Gyms) like Milcery in Galar Route 4, Tinkatink in Paldea South Providence, or Cutiefly on Alola as early as Route 2. Fairy has plenty of species so it can scale with the progression curve, but the Type profile itself is available pretty early in adventures it exists in while being significantly better than other early game types like Bug, being more akin to Flying which is a consistent type that similarly scales by giving better Flying Types as you go or evolve into them.
I think Fairy manages to work this way for in-game purposes (again my grievances usually being Competitively framed) because its advantages aren't the kind that overwhelm the game (like having huge powerful moves relatively early like Gen 4 Staraptor or Flamigo's TM access to Close Combat and Brave Bird late game, Aerial Ace as early as Cortondo) so much as work as a generalist into everything without major shortcomings (Fairy does easy Neutral alongside common-main-game types like Fire or Ground), so it's hard to find a story fight where a Fairy Pokemon has no contribution to make and induce team creep the way it happens with Bugs for example. That's I think the type's main strength (for better or worse) in most contexts: It takes-away very little even if it adds little in turn, compared to Rock and Ice coming with the trade off of "Strong STAB typing, but very bad defensive profile."
tl;dr the Type chart being "unbalanced" makes sense but Gamefreak feels bad at doing Monster design that meshes with it.
That leads me to something else I wanna then mention: Ice is a type that is fundamentally broken in any context harder than the main game where difficulty is mostly a suggestion. Ice types we get for competitive seem to have 3 categories: absolute junk (usually slow tanky things that are undercut by weaknesses), okay-but-with-something-disproportionaly-strong (like Aurora Veil on ATales), or absolutely busted relative to their peers (Baxcalibur, Chien-Pao, Gen 8 Weavile, Iron Bundle). The type is so polarized (pun intended, cowards) that it's almost impossible to play to its strengths without making is disproportionately powerful but trying to give it a "balance" yields something mid because of how intrinsic those weaknesses are. The only relatively "normal" Ice types I can immediately think of are Mamoswime, Frosslass, and maybe Abomasnow for in-game. Some Pokemon like Lapras meet halfway but I think they're heavily buoyed by their secondary typing (Water covers/reduces most of Ice's weaknesses for example).
but this is fine! what isn't fine is that a mon with the exact same stats, moves and abilities becomes notably better/worse simply by changing its typing. we already knew to an extent that this was the case with the rotom formes and some of the regional forms, but terastallization really drove that point home. it's good that bug is a type mostly inhabited by early game mons, it's bad that bug typing actively brings down late game mons. volcarona is a tera monster for exactly that reason.
I would agree with you if a pokémon was only its typing but stats and abilities also are very important components so the negative traits that a type has can be fixed. They are all knobs that make a pokémon stronger or weaker and because of that it doesn't bother me that the type chart is unbalanced like it doesn't bother me that pokémon have different stats or that abilities have different power levels. Would Volcarona even be made if bug wasn't such a bad typing?
i guess we'll have to agree to disagree because yes, volcarona was made the way it was because bug is a bad type, and i don't like that kind of design. it removes possibilities rather than add them.
There's no such thing as too many Bug-types. Why stop at 40%?
Remember that the Bug-type itself isn't required for an arthropod frame: many crustaceans are Water and you can always have something with two other types that overshadow the body shape (e.g. Drapion or Flygon). The only thing that stops GF from kicking out all of the mammals is cowardice.
finally, people who see my vision for the future of this franchise
I feel the biggest issue is the archaic attempt of RPG archetypes in just...discarding members if worthless
For a franchise that encourages team building and friendship, you'd think auto discarding a member would mean more, but the type chart and nowadays very bad late game powercreep aren't helping
Gen 1 dev was turbulent cuz GF went from "standard RPG" the first few years to "uhh, what the fuck do we do with these types?" The game balance got fucked
We have Onix setup as a standard boss 1st Gym cuz of the old mentality, only to straight up suck ass later cuz special weaknesses were too crippling. Pidgeot was meant to be a psuedo starter to grow up alongside actual starters, but fails cuz Dodrio and Fearow are just better, and flying type was such a late addition there were barely any options for moves compared to starters. Many late game mons are a mix of shit (Pinsir), good (Gengar despite moves, Alakazam), good if not for ass movepool (Dragonite)
Similarly, the Exp groups are very questionable. Why have them if you're varying Evo level to begin with!? Raising an already mediocre Dragonite is a hassle
Likewise, GF not having a proper EXP share for the whole team like any other RPG for many gens heavily pushed the >only fucking leveling up the starter to solo everything mentality, and made training others undesirable. Of course now they are barely getting used to exp share so difficulty is wack, but still
Ice not having many resistances is even dumber given it's still lategame. Where even for the archaic standard, it being that frail doesn't make sense. It's due to poor options the first few Gens it wasn't terrible (Fighting types Gen 1 LMAO, Fire not resisting Ice Gen 1), but then 4 on made it very very shitty for an ice type to not be a glass cannon
It's funny cuz if GF buffed ice defensively type wise, it might've prevented the dragon spam of late 4/5
Tangently, the rise of Fairy meant Psychic and Flying no longer were the goto answers to Fighting spam
It's a mess, but I overall disagree with the rigid rpg standard still affecting type access. It's also limiting for where you start in a region (because contrary to what Gen 4 attempted in being snowy, it only had 2 new ice types introduced, 4 others as a crossevo that were obnoxious to get)
For a franchise that encourages team building and friendship, you'd think auto discarding a member would mean more, but the type chart and nowadays very bad late game powercreep aren't helping
Gen 1 dev was turbulent cuz GF went from "standard RPG" the first few years to "uhh, what the fuck do we do with these types?" The game balance got fucked
We have Onix setup as a standard boss 1st Gym cuz of the old mentality, only to straight up suck ass later cuz special weaknesses were too crippling. Pidgeot was meant to be a psuedo starter to grow up alongside actual starters, but fails cuz Dodrio and Fearow are just better, and flying type was such a late addition there were barely any options for moves compared to starters. Many late game mons are a mix of shit (Pinsir), good (Gengar despite moves, Alakazam), good if not for ass movepool (Dragonite)
Similarly, the Exp groups are very questionable. Why have them if you're varying Evo level to begin with!? Raising an already mediocre Dragonite is a hassle
Likewise, GF not having a proper EXP share for the whole team like any other RPG for many gens heavily pushed the >only fucking leveling up the starter to solo everything mentality, and made training others undesirable. Of course now they are barely getting used to exp share so difficulty is wack, but still
Ice not having many resistances is even dumber given it's still lategame. Where even for the archaic standard, it being that frail doesn't make sense. It's due to poor options the first few Gens it wasn't terrible (Fighting types Gen 1 LMAO, Fire not resisting Ice Gen 1), but then 4 on made it very very shitty for an ice type to not be a glass cannon
It's funny cuz if GF buffed ice defensively type wise, it might've prevented the dragon spam of late 4/5
Tangently, the rise of Fairy meant Psychic and Flying no longer were the goto answers to Fighting spam
It's a mess, but I overall disagree with the rigid rpg standard still affecting type access. It's also limiting for where you start in a region (because contrary to what Gen 4 attempted in being snowy, it only had 2 new ice types introduced, 4 others as a crossevo that were obnoxious to get)
I think there's plenty of normal Ice-types. Jynx, Cloyster, Aurorus, Cetitan, Frosmoth, Arctozolt, Sandslash-Alola, Crabominable, modern Vanilluxe, and modern Weavile, alongside those you mentioned. Each of these can do well in some lower tier (or adequately in some tier above ZU), and they all benefit from Ice offensively.
Have the games ever made a big deal about discarding your pokemon?
sure, the anime makes a big deal about how your pokemon are your partners and the emotional bond between yada, yada yada, but the games still have under powered pokemon clearly meant to be replaced by newer members
then again, weak with late availability pokemon like Heatmor exist so
Don’t you dare badmouth Heatmor.Have the games ever made a big deal about discarding your pokemon?
sure, the anime makes a big deal about how your pokemon are your partners and the emotional bond between yada, yada yada, but the games still have under powered pokemon clearly meant to be replaced by newer members
then again, weak with late availability pokemon like Heatmor exist so
Me when they wait until Generation 7 to give Heatmor its signature move (Fire Lash) even though it's not native to the region
Johto Lance is still the worst Champion.
I get why people complain about Geeta and Diantha, but even them feel more memorable to me than a guy who just had 3 of the same mon on a team with Hyper Beam. Like, I can tell there was at least some thought behind Geeta's team as a whole. Lance's just has always felt incredibly uninspired to me. Yeah, Dragon was a very rare type but there were other mons to give him (Tyranitar is right there). Granted, having a Dragon gym leader didn't help his options, but I still believe he's just lacking. I feel like part of that is not even having an easily distintive ace.
I get why people complain about Geeta and Diantha, but even them feel more memorable to me than a guy who just had 3 of the same mon on a team with Hyper Beam. Like, I can tell there was at least some thought behind Geeta's team as a whole. Lance's just has always felt incredibly uninspired to me. Yeah, Dragon was a very rare type but there were other mons to give him (Tyranitar is right there). Granted, having a Dragon gym leader didn't help his options, but I still believe he's just lacking. I feel like part of that is not even having an easily distintive ace.
Last edited:
Speaking as someone who still thinks Johto is a pretty solid region overall in spite of its flaws, the Pokémon League in both the originals and the remakes is a complete joke. You've got Will whose only Johto Pokémon is two Xatu and straight-up plagiarises two of Lorelei's Pokémon from last generation, Koga who barely makes use of the Poison-Type's diverse lineup
Honchkrow isn't in the HGSS Johto dex, so she couldn't have it in the original battle. Only Pokémon that evolve via level, friendship, or knowing a specific move were added to the dex in HGSS. Any item-based evos were not.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
It's frustrating because HGSS had such an easy opportunity to fix Lance's team. In HGSS, Lance and Clair are differentiated by their choice of moves: she uses special moves - most obviously Dragon Pulse - while his Pokemon mostly use physical ones, with his signature Dragonite making use of Safeguard in conjunction with Outrage. He makes heavy use of Hyper Beam rather than the more sensible Giga Impact, but that's sort of justified as Hyper Beam is kind of associated with him.
But Outrage was made a tutor move in Platinum, so a bunch of other species became entirely viable options for his team rather than the uninteresting trio of Dragonite. Case in point:
- Meganium - learns Outrage, but also can do its own thing with Safeguard+Petal Dance
- Ampharos - always thought it would have been cool to fight one of these after having saved Amphy. Real wasted opportunity that no boss in Johto had it imo, Surge doesn't even use one in his rematch
- Kangaskhan - a bit out there for Lance, but still
- Kingdra - yes Clair also uses one, but not in the same way and numerous other Champions have used Gym Leaders' signature species
It never bothered me that many Johto important trainers don't use Johto pokémon, this region is way more connected to another one than any other so it makes sense that Kanto pokémon show up lot on the teams besides it being the first sequel and TPC didn't have the standards they would create from gen 3 onwards. I've always found neat that Karen used Vileplume because you can only encounter oddish in Johto at night, Tyranitar never felt right for her because it's the gen's pseudolegendary and those are more appropriate for the gen's Champion.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Agree on the first point. Poliwrath being Chuck's ace, for instance; no notable trainer used Poliwrath in RBY and it being Water-type gave it an interesting matchup against the player's starter - it's a tough fight if you're using Typhlosion. And big agree on Vileplume, it's an underused Pokemon in general and rounds out her team quite nicely.
Re pseudolegendaries though, there's heavy precedent for E4 members and the Champion to both use one at the same time (Drake uses Salamence and Steven uses Metagross in RSORAS, Lance uses Dragonite and Blue uses Tyranitar in FRLG, Nascour uses Metagross and Evice uses Tyranitar in Colosseum, Caitlin uses Metagross and Iris uses Hydreigon in B2W2), or for E4 members to use them while the Champion doesn't (Hassel has a Baxcalibur in ScVi and Molayne has a Metagross in USUM). I don't see what real relevance Tyranitar has to Lance tbh, sure Lance uses dragonish species like Aerodactyl but as I alluded to above, there's a much wider range of species Lance can draw on, whereas Karen has far fewer appropriate Pokemon: the only other Pokemon I'd say fit her flavour are Persian and Sneasel, but the latter is Silver's special Pokemon in GSCHGSS and while the former is fine she may as well use an actual Dark-type if one's available.
actually let's run the numbers
kanto: lance (4th elite) has dragonite. blue doesn't. 1-0.
johto: neither the elites nor lance have tyranitar... lance does have 3 dragonites, so 1-1
hoenn: the region with two late bloomers and, accordingly, drake (4th elite) has salamence and steven (champion) has metagross. in emerald wallace doesn't have any, though. 2-2
sinnoh: cynthia (champion) has garchomp, the elites have no previous late bloomers. 2-3
unova: in BW, hydreigon is actually ghetsis's, so... nobody. B2W2 has iris (champion) with hydreigon, but also grimsley and caitlin (elites) with tyranitar and metagross, but only on rematches. giving this one to iris because hydreigon is always there (and because volcarona is very late bloomer-coded and is alder's signature pokémon and i love volcarona lol). 2-4
kalos: diantha (champion) has goodra, the elites have no previous late bloomers. 2-5
alola: no elites, prof kukui or hau have ANY late bloomer, which is a disappointment for a region with so many available late bloomers, even if kommo-o was a totem battle. 2-5
galar: leon (champion) has dragapult. but also, raihan (last cup battle before leon) has goodra. 3-6
paldea: hassel (4th elite) has baxcalibur from the main game. geeta only gets a dragapult by indigo disk after many allegations of sucking ass. 4-6
unova-blueberry academy: amarys (elite) has a metagross, drayton (elite and former champion) has a dragonite. the champion has a dragonite, too, which... there Are other late bloomers out there... anyway, 6-7. makes sense for a post-game elite four.
i'd say they are equally likely to be associated with the last elite four member (specially in games in which the elite four battling order is fixed) as they are with the champion.
At the time you only had Lance to compare to and the player only discovered that he wasn't the last boss after defeating him but I will concede that pseudolegendaries are not only final boss pokémon. I still think that Tyranitar is as much a Dark type as Gyarados is a Flying type and both Lance and Karen could go without it.