Unintended effects of banning non-Pokémon game elements

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I am making this thread to draw some attention to what we seem to have been doing during the Gen 5 metagame construction, and either avert the problems that may come up or accept them and decide on a solution to them before it is forced on us. If your only concern is as a player to have a non-broken metagame and you care nothing for the way metagames are constructed, or the kinds of rulsets we use, I ask you to think carefully before posting. This is probably not something which interests you. Players with an interest in the way the metagame is constructed are of course welcome, just be aware this is not similar to a suspect discussion.

First, the facts.

In no previous generation has a ban on a specific non-Pokémon and non-move (DT, OHKOs) element been widely used (there were several complex bans in the GSC era, Perish Trapping and HP Legends, but at that time as far as I am aware there was no central policy group and since the lower tiers were almost unplayed/decided without stats, the main issues did not apply so strongly.). In Gen 5 we already have one, Inconsistent, and may have another to reduce the power of rain in the OU metagame (Swift Swim and Drizzle have both been considered, as well as simpler (Pokémon) and more complex (combination) bans). I will not be addressing the more complex bans in this topic since there is already one by Aldaron which is being used for that discussion.

The first big question is this: If we ban an ability, is it banned across the ruleset, or simply in that tier?

The answer may seem obvious to some of you, of course we should only ban it in the tier which it is a problem, "It would be absurd to ban Kyogre from Ubers because DrizzleToed is a broken in OU", "Why would we ban Swift Swim from UU where there is no perma rain". However, consider: The tier system is an approximation of power, based on usage since it is the most accurate metric we have available. Pokémon which are weak enough will fall to a lower tier, those powerful will rise. The system is largely self-balancing, and the problematic Pokémon (though which function much better in a lower tier due to complex metagame affects, or those which would be easily powerful enough to work in a higher tier but are outclassed so rarely used) are removed by the suspect system. By limiting the power of Pokémon in a tier, by removing their ability to function as they should, we will cause Pokémon which in their full form are entirely capable of functioning in a higher tier (in this case OU) to fall to a tier which by the standard tiering system they should not be in. You may say that's ok, we can just ban them from the lower tier if they are broken! And, yes, this is an option. However, it is not required and could lead to some quite counter-intuitive results, especially for a player new to competitive Pokémon. For example, we could ban Drizzle from OU and Politoed falls to UU (or NU/some lower metagame) where Drizzle is found not to be broken because of the lack of extremely powerful rain abusers (the specific example does not matter, the possibility of building the foundation rules of constructing a metagame which allows for this is the problem). Something is banned in a high tier, but not in a low tier. This is possible, but seems profoundly wrong to me. We do not need to make special exceptions for abilities. All the Pokémon which are broken (even a Pokémon broken entirely due to it's ability is broken. A restricted form of it may not be broken, but that is true of every single Pokémon.) can be dealt with using simple bans. A possible exception to this is Inconsistent, and I'll take a shot at explaining why it should be an exception, and why we cannot use it as precedent for other non-Pokémon bans in a vast majority of cases.

Inconsistent, like the other non-Pokémon game elements banned (OHKO and Evasion), was removed partially due to the luck element. It was argued that it made the game (or at least specific games, over time luck evens out thanks to the law of large numbers) less skill based. It would have been possible to simply ban each Pokémon which rendered the game less skill based because of Inconsistent, however a similar reasoning can be applied as the one used to decide to ban Evasion, rather than banning everything which makes the game more luck based when evasion moves are allowed. Firstly, it is much easier from a testing perspective to give a blanket ban on a move or ability than test everything with DT along with the 14 with Minimize, or the 7 Pokémon which have Inconsistent. When presented with a large array of broken Pokémon which share a common factor, be it move or ability, the common reaction is to remove that factor. If there is a choice between banning a large number of Pokémon, introducing a non-Pokémon ban, or reducing the desirability of a metagame, it may be better to ban that element. This is arguable, and I would personally dispute it, but the second reason is much more convincing. If a non-Pokémon element will be harmful across all tiers and on all (or almost all) Pokémon which it is available to, then since it needs to be removed from the game as a whole, we can use a global ban. One which removes it from every tier, and circumvents the issues that arise from the interaction between tier specific non-Pokémon bans and the usage based tiering system.

In short, I propose that non-Pokémon bans should be considered only if the game element is globally harmful, and that the standard tiering system should be used for all other cases to produce a more often than not better metagame (because simplicity>complexity, and the characteristics of a desirable metagame can be fulfilled without need for more complexity. Other judgments are almost purely subjective.). The reasoning for this cannot be so easily condensed, so if you skipped to this bit go back and read before posting please.

Thank you for your time, and I'd like to hear your considered thoughts.
 

Nails

Double Threat
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Three-Time Past WCoP Champion
I fully agree with what you said for the reasons you said it, complex banning for the hell of it is unnecessary and the issues it solves can usually be solved by a simpler solution, as is true in this instance.
 
I agree with this. One of the reasons why I oppose a Drizzle ban is that it does not universally support all pokemon, but only a select few, and even fewer become broken. As such, it means the broken pokemon in question already had traits that when combined with drizzle makes them broken, not drizzle alone.
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
My opinion concerning this is largely addressed in the thread I made here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84326

Where I tried to establish different forms of "banning," though I wouldn't be against a different structure of differentiating ban types.

Bottom line though, I think there should be a very distinct divide between banning based on Luck/Control of Game (Inconsistent, DT, maybe Shadow Tag in OU) and banning based on power (Drizzle/Swift Swim, 4th Gen Garchomp). I do think that this should affect how we think about bans in Ubers v. OU/UU, with Luck/Control of Game factors being more apt to be banned across tiers (though there may be exceptions if user is simply too weak to abuse it in Ubers, say Wobb).
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Chou: I took inspiration from that topic in the distinction between types of bans (I think the paragraph starting with Inconsistent reflects this?), but my central point is that for power/centralization bans it is far better for the metagame to solve the problem with Pokemon bans rather than ability or other game element bans, because of the contradictions and problems brought up by it's interaction with the tiering system and ease of getting into Pokemon as a competitive game. From your examples, (Drizzle and Swift Swim) I argue that it would be a better solution to ban Politoed from OU than ban Drizzle, and to ban the strongest rain abusers from OU than to ban Swift Swim in it's entirety. Reducing skill applies universally (I would argue that something like Shadow Tag does not actually reduce skill, simply changes the skills required, and could be dealt with by banning Pokemon found to be too powerful with it), so if agreed that the element is harmful to the desirable characteristics of all metagames in the standard ruleset should be removed.

And thanks for your opinions Nails and Arc.
 

Destiny Warrior

also known as Darkwing_Duck
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Another point which I think needs more attention is that if you ban the only ability a Pokemon had in an earlier generation, you effectively ban all moves from that generation that the Pokemon gets.

Example: If we hypothetically ban Pressure, we are also banning Heat Wave Zapdos.

To counter this, I would suggest a policy where if banning an ability causes move legality issues, we would instead just ban the Pokemon in those cases rather than going for the "easy" way by banning the ability.

About the main issue, I think we should try to globalize bans, but if its something like Swift Swim, obviously a tier-specific ban handles the issue. eric's said all I would have.
 
I've said this before, but "one subject per statement" is my one and only definition of a simple ban. I see nothing inherently wrong with banning something that is not a Pokémon index number for whatever reason, other than the weird effects on the usage tiers that was mentioned. The thing that I have to say to this, though, is that focusing on banning Pokémon index numbers based on what might occur in lower tiers is still violating a different intuition that lower tiers shouldn't affect higher tiers. Every aspect of an entire Pokémon has a potentially global effect, direct or not.

If an element is banned in one tier, it should be banned in all lower tiers. We don't let Uber Pokémon down into UU on the off chance that they encounter huge disadvantages there compared to OU, so I don't see why banned abilities should get a different treatment. In addition to this, I agree with Chou and whoever else has repeated this over time that bans based on "legitimizing" the existence of skill in the game (i.e. removing luck) should be applied to all tiers.
 

zapzap29

The obssessive man of passion
For the most part I think if something is found broken in one tier it should be banned in all lower tiers. That's been the precedent for previous generations and it wasn't much of a problem then.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I've said this before, but "one subject per statement" is my one and only definition of a simple ban. I see nothing inherently wrong with banning something that is not a Pokémon index number for whatever reason, other than the weird effects on the usage tiers that was mentioned. The thing that I have to say to this, though, is that focusing on banning Pokémon index numbers based on what might occur in lower tiers is still violating a different intuition that lower tiers shouldn't affect higher tiers. Every aspect of an entire Pokémon has a potentially global effect, direct or not.
While a non-Pokemon ban can be relatively simple to express ("Item/Move/Ability is banned."), this does not mean it is as simple as adding to the existing tiering system ("Pokemon is in Tier."), especially if we have a significant number of non-Pokemon bans. It is not inexcusable to ban something other than a Pokemon, but those "weird effects" you mention are not something to be written off lightly. I can see where you're coming from with the idea that this is causing lower tiers to effect higher ones, but the way I see it we're looking on the ruleset as a whole, not any specific metagame. This thread aims to establish a general policy for metagame construction, based on what will be best for all metagames in the ruleset. We're not allowing any specific lower tier to influence a higher tier, simply noting that solving the problems in a certain way will not lead to complications and problems elsewhere.

If an element is banned in one tier, it should be banned in all lower tiers. We don't let Uber Pokémon down into UU on the off chance that they encounter huge disadvantages there compared to OU, so I don't see why banned abilities should get a different treatment. In addition to this, I agree with Chou and whoever else has repeated this over time that bans based on "legitimizing" the existence of skill in the game (i.e. removing luck) should be applied to all tiers.
From your first statement, what would you suggest is done if Swift Swim is banned from OU where perma rain ends up staying? There would be a huge number of non-broken Swift Swimmers in UU (along with some broken ones most likely, since the SS ban from OU neutered them). I don't think it's excusable for a problem in a higher metagame to cause such huge disruption via a ban which was designed for a very different metagame.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top