Unban list in OU at the start of each generation

[N_Mareanie]

Hello everyone, I hope you all are having a nice day!

I want to make this Policy Review thread simply to spark discussion for now. At the start of each new generation, a few Pokémon from the Ubers tier get voted on to be allowed in OU and be given a second chance. We saw this happen this generation as well, but of course not at the start of the generation, but at the release of DLC 2. The Pokémon that were voted on were the following:
Previously banned Pokémon in the same generation:

+ Dynamax & Gigantamax + Shadow Tag + Arena Trap + Moody
Newly released Pokémon that were banned in the previous generation:

Out of the 12 Pokémon that were voted on (excluding Dynamax and abilities here for now), 10 Pokémon were voted to be given a second chance in the OU tier (the only ones that were voted to stay Uber were Darmanitan-Galar and Dracovish). I thought it was really cool to see so many Pokémon tried out in a fresh and new OU tier after being locked away in Ubers while never given a second chance or a chance at all (like Blaziken). We've been seeing multiple tiers do this, and pretty much every tier completely got rid of their (tier)BL once a new DLC dropped.

My question is, why doesn't OU do this? Why doesn't OU simply have a standard unban list at the start of each new generation, instead of voting on a few and only a select amount of Pokémon are allowed back in? Why not give everything a new chance? It's a new generation after all. We've always been a community that wants to see things in practice before banning it, instead of just theorizing. Things just work a lot differently in theory than in practice.

So, my proposal is this. OU should have a standard unban list at the start of each generation. Doesn't matter how absolutely broken insert Pokémon was last generation, it should be given a secondary chance.

What should the list look like?

I was personally thinking of something like this. FYI, I will be using the Generation 8 Ubers list for currently released Pokémon, and for Pokémon that aren't released yet I will be using the Generation 7 Ubers list. So you won't see Pokémon like Aegislash and Blaziken on the list here, despite them being Ubers in Generation 7.

Should start in OU

Currently released

• 
  Calyrex-Ice
• 
  Cinderace
• 
  Darmanitan-Galar
• 
  Dracovish
• 
  Genesect
• 
  Kyurem-Black
• 
  Landorus
• 
  Magearna
• 
  Marshadow
• 
  Naganadel
• 
  Pheromosa
• 
  Spectrier
• 
  Urshifu-SS
• 
  Zamazenta-Crowned
  
  
  Zygarde
• + whatever else is getting banned this generation.

Currently unreleased

• 
  Darkrai
• 
  Deoxys
• 
  Deoxys-Attack
• 
  Deoxys-Defense
• 
  Deoxys-Speed
• 
  Shaymin-Sky

-

• 
  Blaziken-Mega
• 
  Kangaskhan-Mega
• 
  Lucario-Mega
• 
  Metagross-Mega
• 
  Salamence-Mega

Mega's are seperated here, considering we're unsure if Mega's are coming back ever. (Please, BDSP, give us what we deserve.)

Should start in Ubers

Currently released

• 
  Calyrex-Shadow
• 
  Dialga
• 
  Eternatus
• 
  Giratina
• 
  Giratina-Origin
• 
  Groudon
• 
  Ho-Oh
• 
  Kyogre
• 
  Kyurem-White
• 
  Lugia
• 
  Lunala
• 
  Mewtwo
• 
  Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
• 
  Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
• 
  Palkia
• 
  Rayquaza
• 
  Reshiram
• 
  Solgaleo
• 
  Xerneas
• 
  Yveltal
• 
  Zacian
• 
  Zacian-Crowned
• 
  Zamazenta
• 
  Zekrom
• 
  Zygarde-Complete

Abilities

• Arena Trap
• Moody
• Shadow Tag

Moves

• Baton Pass

Currently unreleased

• 
  Arceus (all typings)

-

• 
  Groudon-Primal
• 
  Kyogre-Primal
• 
  Mewtwo-Mega-X
• 
  Mewtwo-Mega-Y
• 
  Necrozma-Ultra

Considering this is just my personal opinion of how the list should look like, there is obviously room for change. Arguments for Kyurem-Black and Zamazenta-Crowned being on the other list can be made, as well as some probably over-the-top Pokémon like Marshadow, Deoxys-Attack and Salamence-Mega. I basically formed the list as follows: 680 BST legends (+ Kyogre and Groudon, they have a BST of 670) go Ubers, outside of the Pokémon that were retested in OU in the past (like Kyurem-Black and Zamazenta-Crowned). The only one that I changed the rule for is Calyrex-Ice, as I personally view it should be given a chance. However, if we want to remain consistent, it's probably best to include it in the initial banlist.

Why do this?
Simple. Each new generation differs a lot from the last one, and I personally view everything should be given a chance. It would also prevent certain retest calls from users in this website, and makes sure your description for something being Ubers is just the same one as last generation without actually knowing if it's still correct or not.

Also, suspect tests are the life of Smogon. It's when most of the community gathers together and talks. Doing this will probably open up more room for suspect tests.

Why not do this?
It could mess tiering up a bit at the start of the generation. It'll be probably a bit more hectic than usual, but this can be fixed with quickbans and community input, especially in a tier as big as OU. OU has the biggest playerbase on this website, it should take advantage of that and test as many Pokémon as possible.

It could hinder tournaments early on in the generation, but I honestly have always hated how tours are being prioritized instead of testing [insert problematic Pokémon].

---

OU has been doing a fantastic job this generation when it comes to tiering. Everything clearly suspect worthy has been getting a suspect test without it being too hasty of a decision. I would love if we could also consider this proposal as an actual option going forward and would love to hear the thoughts of you guys.

 

[TailGlowVM]

Part of the reason we don't do this is probably because of what happened in BW OU, where everything was unbanned, even Arceus formes, and it was a total disaster. The current policy could be an overreaction as a result of this, or maybe players that were around at that time consider it justified, I don't know.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I don't see how this is at all an improvement on making the same decision at the start of the generation with more information to work with.

Maybe we need to be more forgiving of what starts in OU, that's not a call I'm willing to make. But trying to make the decision of what mons to test now, for the foreseeable future, as opposed to when we actually know what mons, mechanics, and other updates are going to be in the games, seems not just pointless but actively harmful to the tiering process.

 

[Oglemi]

Part of the reason we don't do this is probably because of what happened in BW OU, where everything was unbanned, even Arceus formes, and it was a total disaster. The current policy could be an overreaction as a result of this, or maybe players that were around at that time consider it justified, I don't know.

?

There was a No Bans ladder on PO at the start on the gen before smogon made the transition over, but that's not where smogon gen5 ou tiering started, although it was a popular idea.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vote-initial-gen-v-banlist.81568/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-5th-generation-starting-line-initial-metagames.82101/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ou-suspect-testing-round-1-wait-im-not-jumpman16.83031/

 

[peng]

I personally don't see the point in trying to plan for this before we even know working mechanics / new moves / new abilities / nerfs for the next gen. Trying to create a cut-off for what is definitely broken (your list with groudon, kyogre etc) and what is just probably broken (your list with Genesect, Pheromosoma) for the next gen based on current gen information seems complicated and the lists would be quickly made useless should there be any significant mechanics changes.

I think a good example of this is Aegislash, which has been one of the first OU bans in the previous 2 generations and I distinctly remember a lot of pre-release discussion questioning whether there is any point even bringing it back to OU for gen 8. A subset of people were therefore putting Aegislash into a "definitely ban" category in pre-release before we realised that Game Freak had very specifically nerfed Aegislash going into this generation, therefore rendering all prior discussion completely useless.

I get that this is all personal opinion but the lists in the OP are also a little weird because I and many others would consider stuff like Darm-G, Dracovish, and Genesect to be among the dumbest mons to have ever graced OU, whereas other mons like Lugia, Solgaleo and Giratina(-O) have for several generations been considered the dregs of the Ubers list. Saying that Darm-G should be considered to return come Gen 9, but that Gira-O should be completely off the table, is something that I can't see the evidence for.

As much as my heart says that Shadow Tag should be always banned in OU, we shouldn't decide that until we know the ability hasn't been directly nerfed (e.g. could be nerfed to only prevent switch for a limited number of turns) or that other elements have been introduced to limit the influence of trapping (i.e. some kind of shed shell buff, or something mad like 2 items per Pokemon).

tl;dr no point working this out until we get the dumps of the Gen 9 files.

I think much more important is trying to establish what is the true intent of tiering in modern generations - is it really to have the absolute minimal banlist? If so then your approach is correct. The alternative is to foster and develop an identity for OU based on an ideal and pre-decided power-level. Its possible that there's a balanced metagame with Darm-G / Lando-I / Dracovish / Giratina-O / Zama-C all together but is this really an "overused" tier in the context that we have come to understand it, or is it some kind of broken-checks-broken Ubers-50%? I would advise looking to Gen 5 OU as an example of a format where a bunch of crazy mons just about keep eachother in check, and that generation gets a lot of abuse despite trying to adhere to the "minimal possible banlist" ethos.

edit: importantly we also have zero idea whether we will ever get pokemon games again that have a fully restored national dex, making these default OU and Uber lists even more difficult to decide on pre-release