Pokémon Toxapex

[Drybones]

OK so, I have Phero out and click u-turn on a predicted switch to Toxapex. Who do I want to be switching in? Or even a better question, what am I switching in to Scald?

I'm used to RU where I would be switching in my Virizion to my opponent's Alomomola all day. What in current OU is comfortable switching in to scalds?

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

OK so, I have Phero out and click u-turn on a predicted switch to Toxapex. Who do I want to be switching in? Or even a better question, what am I switching in to Scald?

I'm used to RU where I would be switching in my Virizion to my opponent's Alomomola all day. What in current OU is comfortable switching in to scalds?

Mantine gets water absorb, guts users (so probably conkledurr with an assault vest), clefable with magic guard. There's a few options.

 

[kurocookie]

Salazzle can poison it right? I believe the ability Corrosion can poison Steel/Poison types.

unless i'm completly blind i did not see a Salazzle in his replay. Or does another pokemon get the signature ability too?

 

[Jajoken]

The ladder is still infatuated with Baneful Bunker despite the prevailing reason in this thread, so I'm dropping by with a PSA on what makes Protect moves work in singles:

• Aegislash is great with King's Shield because the opponent has to respect it: the alternative is Aegislash getting off a powerful Shadow Ball/etc. It also helps you change forms, makes up for your lack of recovery and beat physical attackers that rely on contact moves like Knock Off and Flare Blitz.
• Heatran is great with Protect because the opponent has to respect it: the alternative is Heatran getting off a powerful Lava Plume/etc. It also makes up for your lack of recovery and can mess with HJK users, as you're weak to the move.
• Chesnaught is pretty good with Spiky Shield because the opponent has to respect it: the alternative is Chesnaught setting up another layer or getting off a powerful Wood Hammer/etc. It also combos well with Leech Seed.
• Anything with Wish needs Protect because it's a useful two-part combo for consistently recovering.

Toxapex possesses none of these qualities, namely that no one needs to respect Toxapex. It's much less risky to just setup/recover/etc. on the prediction than pretty much any other Protect user. Its attacks are embarrassingly weak, and even Burn damage is pretty unimpressive now, so the opponent doesn't need to respect the alternative that you may attack them. Toxapex in no way needs to compensate for a lack of recovery, as you have multiple avenues for recovering lots of health (Recover, Regenerator, Black Sludge). It's pointless in screwing with HJK users because you eat up the attack anyway. In fact, there is barely a single contact move that hits you super effectively: Zen Headbutt is literally the only one I can think of, and one of its best users (Metagross) is immune to Poison anyway. Literally the only thing you have to worry about is Scald burns, which are easier than ever to play around this generation, so there's no imperative to attack Toxapex over using another move.

Merciless has been thoroughly deBUNKed as a viable ability already, but even if it weren't, why the hell would you run Baneful Bunker on that set? Recover and Venoshock are non-negotiable because you lack Regenerator and need a high-powered move for poisoned targets. You need a method to deal with Steels and Poisons, so probably a Water move? Then you need a way to actually trigger Poison, for which you have three options. Toxic is by far the most reliable, Toxic Spikes is possibly workable if your opponent has low hazard control, and Baneful Bunker...is useless against non-contact attackers or one that simply ignore it. Even if you drop Recover or your non-Poison move for some reason, I'd still rather run Toxic + Toxic Spikes over Baneful Bunker in any capacity.

Toxapex is an amazing Pokemon if it plays to its strengths. Stop misusing it by wasting a moveslot on Baneful Bunker to become a bargain bin Aegislash.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

Do we know an EV spread for Toxapex beside 252/252 that it needs to counter/check what it has to ?

 

[HotFuzzBall]

For those of you who don't know... Black Sludge is better on Poison types to prevent Trick/Switcheroo users getting free Leftovers since Black Sludge damages mons who aren't Poison type (or don't have Magic Guard). For example, a Rotom-Wash would be punished for trying to Trick Toxapex a Choice Scarf by getting worn down slowly with Black Sludge.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

The ladder is still infatuated with Baneful Bunker despite the prevailing reason in this thread, so I'm dropping by with a PSA on what makes Protect moves work in singles:

• Aegislash is great with King's Shield because the opponent has to respect it: the alternative is Aegislash getting off a powerful Shadow Ball/etc. It also helps you change forms, makes up for your lack of recovery and beat physical attackers that rely on contact moves like Knock Off and Flare Blitz.
• Heatran is great with Protect because the opponent has to respect it: the alternative is Heatran getting off a powerful Lava Plume/etc. It also makes up for your lack of recovery and can mess with HJK users, as you're weak to the move.
• Chesnaught is pretty good with Spiky Shield because the opponent has to respect it: the alternative is Chesnaught setting up another layer or getting off a powerful Wood Hammer/etc. It also combos well with Leech Seed.
• Anything with Wish needs Protect because it's a useful two-part combo for consistently recovering.

Toxapex possesses none of these qualities, namely that no one needs to respect Toxapex. It's much less risky to just setup/recover/etc. on the prediction than pretty much any other Protect user. Its attacks are embarrassingly weak, and even Burn damage is pretty unimpressive now, so the opponent doesn't need to respect the alternative that you may attack them. Toxapex in no way needs to compensate for a lack of recovery, as you have multiple avenues for recovering lots of health (Recover, Regenerator, Black Sludge). It's pointless in screwing with HJK users because you eat up the attack anyway. In fact, there is barely a single contact move that hits you super effectively: Zen Headbutt is literally the only one I can think of, and one of its best users (Metagross) is immune to Poison anyway. Literally the only thing you have to worry about is Scald burns, which are easier than ever to play around this generation, so there's no imperative to attack Toxapex over using another move.

Merciless has been thoroughly deBUNKed as a viable ability already, but even if it weren't, why the hell would you run Baneful Bunker on that set? Recover and Venoshock are non-negotiable because you lack Regenerator and need a high-powered move for poisoned targets. You need a method to deal with Steels and Poisons, so probably a Water move? Then you need a way to actually trigger Poison, for which you have three options. Toxic is by far the most reliable, Toxic Spikes is possibly workable if your opponent has low hazard control, and Baneful Bunker...is useless against non-contact attackers or one that simply ignore it. Even if you drop Recover or your non-Poison move for some reason, I'd still rather run Toxic + Toxic Spikes over Baneful Bunker in any capacity.

Toxapex is an amazing Pokemon if it plays to its strengths. Stop misusing it by wasting a moveslot on Baneful Bunker to become a bargain bin Aegislash.

I would argue that in the current meta toxic spikes is unreliable. Everyone and their mother has a toxapex which is 100% coming in on a toxapex that's not in front of something it can hit super effectively. so unless the opposing toxapex is dead your spikes are being soaked up before they can do anything most of the time (This is coming from someone that has faced the toxic spike setting variant constantly and doesn't personally use it). I run the defensive toxic/venoshock/scald/recover regenerator variant, for reference.

toxic>baneful bunker
black sludge>leftovers
@toxapex
is ice punch more useful than scald? lol
@ quagsire

Never underestimate the viability of double status on one pokemon my friend.

 

[Senju]

Im sad - why did Toxapex get Baneful Bunker and Merciless and Salazzle get Corrosion? Would be soooo much better the other way around and open up really good sets.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

For those of you who don't know... Black Sludge is better on Poison types to prevent Trick/Switcheroo users getting free Leftovers since Black Sludge damages mons who aren't Poison type (or don't have Magic Guard). For example, a Rotom-Wash would be punished for trying to Trick Toxapex a Choice Scarf by getting worn down slowly with Black Sludge.

But doesn't that give the Tricker (in this case Rotom-Wash) another weapon to use Trick with? Rotom can later come in and steal a better item (such as leftovers, life orb, or choice items) and leave one of your pokemon stuck with Black Sludge. Meanwhile if you used leftovers on Toxapex your Rotom doesn't have another weapon to Trick since generally everything can appreciate leftovers.

 

[Edgar81539]

But doesn't that give the Tricker (in this case Rotom-Wash) another weapon to use Trick with? Rotom can later come in and steal a better item (such as leftovers, life orb, or choice items) and leave one of your pokemon stuck with Black Sludge. Meanwhile if you used leftovers on Toxapex your Rotom doesn't have another weapon to Trick since generally everything can appreciate leftovers.

Well, then the Rotom player is doing something wrong by wasting moves tricking the Black Sludge instead of making actual damage. The moment the Rotom player chooses to Trick away the Black Sludge it's the moment you're controlling the flow of the match. Tricking away the Black Sludge is stupid because Toxapex could easily come in and get back the Black Sludge while you can switch in with a mon that won't be damaged by the Tricked Choice Scarf and the Rotom-Wash player is overall in a worst spot with a damaged Rotom wash that now is predictable. You know its speed, you know its moves, you know everything about it.

 

[Kakimori]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-483009136

But it's not worth running Haze on Toxapex, right?

...People in this thread already know, but I wish I could show this replay to the Toxapex users on the ladder.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-483009136

But it's not worth running Haze on Toxapex, right?

...People in this thread already know, but I wish I could show this replay to the Toxapex users on the ladder.

it happened the same to me, but i had haze on toxa and the oppo ragequitted after 2 quiver dances nullified xd

 

[Arcadeotic]

I've been playing around for a bit ever since I knew of the existence of this glorious little pin cushion that I have undying love for, and I think I've gotten a pretty nice set/spread going with it.

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic
- Haze/Infestation/Toxic Spikes

So, the moves.
Recover is very self-explainatory for this self-sustaining wall of a pokemon. Giving it active healing whenever it so desires.
I juggled between Scald, Poison Jab, and Venoshock, but ultimately, I ended up at Scald. It's the best offense this thing has, to be perfectly honest. It gives it some amount of offensive pressure, it hurts Steels and Poisons, and it can cripple physically terrifying opponents. Of course, it does go against the poisoning a bit, but overall, it's usually better than poison STABs it's got. You can also use Liquidation, if you're bothered by the random burns.
Toxic allows Toxapex to do what it does best, stall. It whittles down opponents while adding pressure.
Now the 4th move slot was a bit tricky. I played around with Stockpile first, but this mon doesn't have the pressure to stop the opponent from setting up in your face. Haze overall is a good stop to win-cons and set-up sweepers while also setting the scene for another pokemon to finish up the opponent if it has a sub up or an unfavorable typing against Toxapex. Infestation is... a favorite of mine. I've used a lot of cancer Dusclops in NU with Infestation with many more mons with Infestation, and for this pokemon, Infestation just fits the bill quite well. If the opponent has no switch-in to a poke that has active recovery, set-up (which you could argue that you could run Haze along with this), or something to 2-shot this thing, they're almost good as gone, 9/10 times. Toxic Spikes is another good option for it, dealing some nice procedual damage to the party just after one turn.
Now, Haze is quite essential, and you can run it over say, Scald for ultimate stall, but then its use really narrows from a wall to a staller.

The spread.
There's a lot of threats for Toxapex: Scarfed Xurkitree, Banded Dugtrio, Landorus-T, DD Kommo-o, Tapu Lele, Magnezone, M-Metagross...
This spread basically allows it to potentially live all of the attacks these things can throw at it. Let's go over the calcs.

252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 112+ SpD Toxapex: 228-270 (75.2 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can tank a TBolt from a Xurkitree and possibly another after Sludge recovery and regenerator, though they usually use Volt Switch instead.

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 148 Def Toxapex: 254-302 (83.8 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The Def EVs given to it allows it to barely hold on after a banded EQ from arguably one of the best trappers of the current meta and proceed to usually kill it afterwards.

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian doesn't even come close to knocking out this pin cushion.

+1 252+ Atk Kommo-o Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 148 Def Toxapex: 200-236 (66 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now, I'm not exactly sure if Kommo-o uses EQ or runs Adamant, but even if did, this is the best it could do against Toxapex, and then it just proceeds to kill all of its stat boosts and Regenerator switches afterwards.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 112+ SpD Toxapex: 300-354 (99 - 116.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 112+ SpD Toxapex: 200-236 (66 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Only a Specs Magnezone can outright OHKO Toxapex, and I think that Magnezone is somewhat obselete because of Xurkitree nowadays.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Toxapex: 212-252 (69.9 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even the all-powerful Mega-Metagross can only dream of killing Toxapex.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 300-354 (99 - 116.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Maybe the best killer for this set is Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain, since it can very safely dispose of Toxapex 7/8 times.

And just for fun...
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 266-314 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Even Specs Jolteon very uncommonly straight up OHKOs Toxapex.

So, to sum it up, in my opinion, this spread allows Toxapex to harness its potential to the fullest while being the most toxic of thorns in the opponents back.

 

[Machoke]

Seems like we got one of the best defensive mons in this generation. This thing is a straight up wall. It can even avoid the OHKO from scarf Xurkitree and regenerate the HP back later.
It's a shame that no other poison lines get Merciless because it's a very interesting ability. It's unfortunate that it's just not viable on Toxapex because it reduces its ability to stall, which is what it does best. Mareanie, however, gets Merciless too and its attack stats are more usable in LC so I'm excited to see what success it has in that environment running Merciless.

 

[Raegar]

Seems like we got one of the best defensive mons in this generation. This thing is a straight up wall. It can even avoid the OHKO from scarf Xurkitree and regenerate the HP back later.
It's a shame that no other poison lines get Merciless because it's a very interesting ability. It's unfortunate that it's just not viable on Toxapex because it reduces its ability to stall, which is what it does best. Mareanie, however, gets Merciless too and its attack stats are more usable in LC so I'm excited to see what success it has in that environment running Merciless.

Salazzle should have gotten Merciless and Toxapex should have gotten Corrosion. That was the dream.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

It would be probably broken then.

 

[MacAulay]

Why do you need scald? you're not burning anything thats already poisoned, for extra damage I'd take Venoshock.

 

[Prinz]

u have good chances to burn steels like scizor, ferrothorn, cripping them (burning the former is especially p useful)

 

[Xeiros]

You want to apply the best status for the current threat. Now obviously you can't fully control this but there are scenarios wherein one is preferable over the other. Bulky resilient special walls hate poison yet laugh off burns, fast frail revenge killers can't stand paralysis yet by the time poison begins to ramp up most of if not all your team has been knocked out. That sort of thing.

Now assuming whatever Toxapex is facing down isn't something that can force him out and he can take a blow, by having both Toxic and Scald you can choose the appropriate potential status. A faster (which in Toxapex's case is pretty much anything) hard hitting physical attacker won't be affected much by bad poison from Toxic, but hates a scald burn. It's about having the option to best cripple your opponents long term ability to win.

Pretty much everything in what seems to be the standard Toxapex set is about either creating a disadvantage or removing an advantage given it's often unable to use sheer power to force/knock out whatever it came in to check/counter.

 

[Nix_Hex]

will make a more meaningful post in this forum once I get a chance to play this meta, but I wanted to clarify something regarding Black Sludge:

Black Sludge vs Leftovers is a conversation for another thread... or no thread at all. Edgar81539 pretty much summed it up perfectly in his very insightful post. This "issue" gets brought up again whenever there is an influx of new users (i.e. when a new gen starts) but Black Sludge is ALWAYS advantageous for a Poison type. And for the record, anyone who plans to contribute to C&C (ahem please do, ez badges!!!) will be going by this, as planned out in this post by Eo Ut Mortus in Gen 5, even before megas existed: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/black-sludge.3470127/

 

[LeNorm]

I've been running a Merciless Toxapex which has had some use, though this is mostly down to surprise, and my opponent assuming they can outstall me and start setting up (so, a Quiver Dance Volcarona, or a CM Clefable, etc.).

To actually get it to work, I found a Life Orb really helps bring Tox up to a useable offensive level. I try to force a switch, and use toxic turn one, then spam either venoshock or surf.

That said, I don't think it's too viable as anything but a fairy counter. And even then, Tapu Koko and Lele (two of the more common fairies) do a big chunk of damage, or even take Tox out in one hit.

The set I've been running is thus:
Toxapex @ Life Orb
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Surf/Scald
- Venoshock
- Recover

The guaranteed crit, 130 bp, stab venoshock does do a lot of damage, and is especially useful as a check to fairies such as Clefable (which eats most Toxapexs for breakfast) and Azumarill. If used correctly, the element of surprise that it is not a stally set can get a kill or two, but you have to be careful and cannot use this mon recklessly as you might a more defensive set.

 

[Pyukumu-kukuku]

Personally, I'd go Recover, Haze, Infestation, Toxic. Trapping something in with Toxic would be best case scenario assuming you land infest on something, well, poison-able. Scald is nice but Infest will whittle down a wall better since it may take a few shots to burn on a steel/poison type. There isn't a bug type water absorb and you can safely use it on a switch without potentially buffing a guts user.

The burn atk cut is nice tho. I won't complain if many people disagree with this but I'm someone who has horrendous luck and would rather go with the Infest 100% residual damage to the lesser residual damage, 30% burn chance.

Edit: Also, Infest will prevent them from double swap predictions giving you the momentum.

 

[Colonel M]

There is basically one moveset for this mon, and I will post on this thread everyday if I have to remind people that Baneful Bunker sucks.

- Scald (Debatable - Infestation)
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes

I would even argue Toxic Spikes as shady unless you clear out the opponent's Toxapex as well.

The only ability to ever run on this thing is Regenerator. You should never use Limber nor Merciless.

I posted the rarest advantage of Merciless was it could help if you needed to KO Azumarill and Keldeo efficiently. Outside of that circumstance you should only run Regenerator.

Baneful Bunker (and to a lesser extent Infestation) are bad moves for this thing.

Christ I wish the above alone would go in the OP. Baneful Bunker is a Protect, yes, but it only Poisons if the opponent makes contact with you. That's really damn hard for some Special mons to do since some lack Contact moves altogether. Infestatiom invites a gimmick to Toxapex who already is short on moveslots. Haze is necessary because it prevents a dangerous scenario where Belly Drum Azumarill could risk it and set up on you. Scald is necessary because it can catch Landorus-T and Gyarados on the swap and catch a burn. It also prevents Skarmory and Heatran from laughing at you. Toxic and Toxic Spikes are basically there to prevent you from being a joke. Recover is there because, well, fucking obvious I hope.

I have seen some arguments for Infestation > Scald. I guess pending on team composition maybe, but I think the value of Scald is a bit better in most cases.

 

[Nobu]

From my experience so far, bulky landorus-t is a great partner for this pokemon. It can switch in on earthquakes or thunderbolts that would threaten Toxapex, and Toxapex doesn't have any issues with ice or water moves that can ko landorus. I've been building Toxapex with more sp.d than def so they can cover each other better.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

That's why celesteela is so good with toxa.