this thread was about rape; it's over now

[vonFiedler]

We don't let people drive when drunk because that kills people. This comparison is ridiculous.

 

[Nastyjungle]

because rape is so much better right

edit: because i can already predict your answer to my rhetoric question to be yes; im just going to say this:

rape is not good
is it as bad as killing somebody/getting killed while driving drunk? not sure, i can't say to be honest. neither have happened to me
but personally, i wouldn't like either to happen to me
its pretty easy to sit there as a man, who, unless you go to prison, has almost no chance of getting raped, to say that drunk driving and rape are not comparable
i would say they are pretty comparable, because they are both horrific acts that could be prevented with a little common sense

if you can't get a girl to say yes when she is sober, and the only time you can get her to give in is when she can't walk a straight line or can't get behind a wheel (for fear of killing somebody), do you really think that's fine?
in a state where somebody is so impaired that they could potentially slaughter somebody or themselves behind a wheel of a car and they can't even recognize that they would do it, you really think that they can make a rational decision about fucking somebody? especially somebody who they wouldn't fuck before?

i honestly can't think of a clearer example of taking advantage of somebody (which is part of rape- taking advantage of or forcing a person to have sex with you), and if you can't see that then you really should maybe think twice about things

 

[InnocenceExorcist]

"If you can't make fun of it, it isn't worth taking seriously" is my motto. I think Tosh was within his limits as a comedian to say that stuff. The woman interrupted his act, so she was asking for a joke at her expense.

 

[elcheeso]

@Waterbomb: To be blunt, I don't care to redefine consent and rape for people who don't understand what they are. I really don't. Also, it's clear that you disagree that people can't actually consent while drunk... which is the problem here. From where I'm coming from, you are saying that getting raped is the answer. I'd definitely qualify what happened to you as rape (though I suppose it's possible you were still sober enough to consent? IDK), but it's your right to believe otherwise. She should've done the right thing, that responsibility isn't on you.

@vonFiedler: Oh well, no one ever heard of anyone getting killed during a rape, I guess I'm just really stupid and dumb. It's like comparing patting a small puppy to throwing poisonous snakes at people, obviously.

 

[WaterBomb]

@Waterbomb: To be blunt, I don't care to redefine consent and rape for people who don't understand what they are. I really don't. Also, it's clear that you disagree that people can't actually consent while drunk... which is the problem here. From where I'm coming from, you are saying that getting raped is the answer. I'd definitely qualify what happened to you as rape (though I suppose it's possible you were still sober enough to consent? IDK), but it's your right to believe otherwise. She should've done the right thing, that responsibility isn't on you.

Eh, we may not be on the same page here. I am fully aware that there is a point of drunkenness where a person cannot really make a decision to consent to sex. However, even when moderately drunk, people still possess some of their decision making skills. I've been pretty wasted before, but never to the point when I literally couldn't make up my own mind whether I wanted to have sex or not. If a person has reached a level of drunkenness when they cannot even form the word "yes", then you are right, they cannot give consent. But you have to be pretty messed up to reach that point, and that's not an extreme I'm talking about. I'm talking about that middle ground where you are drunk but still walking around, playing beer pong, talking to people, or what have you. This is where the perceived gray area is, because although judgment is altered, it's not completely absent, so the person can legitimately still consent to sex (even if they regret it later). At this point yes, I believe the person can still consent, so I guess we do disagree. I do respect and understand your opinion on it, which is why I do not make any effort to change your mind. I think we've established how we both see it, so there isn't a need to discuss further. I just wanted to clarify my position so you don't look at me as some kind of unintelligent monster who thinks rape is ok and a just punishment for people who make mistakes, because that is definitely not what I am.

 

[vonFiedler]

Nastyjungle don't take my words out of context, Waterbomb and I are trying to argue that sex while drunk does not equal rape. I go to parties to do fun social things with fun social people, and two fun social things are drinking and sex. They both need to be practiced responsibly but when combined at all it becomes a felony? Fuck that. I'm not in favor of anything that encourages Americans to be more afraid of sex.

Going back to what elcheezo was actually saying, I have a friend who says he can drive drunk. The thing is he says it when he is sober. He doesn't have to be drunk for us to not trust his judgement on this, driving drunk is one of the dumbest things you can do. Impairments in vision and motor skills cause drivers to accidentally crash and cause death. One of the most responsible things you can do before drinking is think about responsible choices before hand, and if you can't trust yourself to not drive drunk you have a sober friend hide your keys.

I'm not comparing the consequences of drunk driving and rape. I'm comparing the consequences of choosing to drive drunk to choosing to have sex while drunk. You don't even need to feel drunk for getting behind the wheel to be a poor choice. All these different ways that you come up with to say consent is not actually consent, no one finds it a little patronizing? Remember, according to you and elcheezo's own definition Waterbomb and I have been raped, so don't come on with the "it's easy to sit their in your ivory tower" schtick, we have first hand experience with this and we still like we always have the right to choose.

if you can't get a girl to say yes when she is sober, and the only time you can get her to give in is when she can't walk a straight line or can't get behind a wheel (for fear of killing somebody), do you really think that's fine?
in a state where somebody is so impaired that they could potentially slaughter somebody or themselves behind a wheel of a car and they can't even recognize that they would do it, you really think that they can make a rational decision about fucking somebody? especially somebody who they wouldn't fuck before?

How did jumpluff put it? Ah- why do you have a singular image of guys who have sex while drinking? What am I to you, some sort of stalker circling the skies waiting for an unrequited crush to get so drunk that she mistakes me for someone else? That's just not how it goes down. I don't tolerate any such shenanigans at my parties, and don't go to places where they are. When everyone shows up I decide if I want to hang out with a girl I know, and we start talking and working up that chemistry before anyone has a drink. A party is supposed to be fun and cool. I know there are parties that aren't. I know there are guys that "take advantage" in exactly the fashion you describe. But where I go, no one is afraid of getting raped or raping anyone. It's just not part of the equation unless deep down someone is sexist enough that they'd rape given a few less inhibitions, and I wouldn't associate with those people.

And yet strictly by your interpretation, Waterbomb and I are both rapists and rape victims. What is that accomplishing? If I were in Jellicent's shoes I'd do exactly what he described, testifying and such. But I suppose you'd rather I was in prison.

 

[Nastyjungle]

holy shit you missed the point so completely i can't believe it

im not saying that having sex with somebody after having a few drinks is rape
im saying having sex with somebody who is so impaired they can't function is rape

you don't let people drive when impaired
you don't let people get tattoos when they're impaired
you don't let people fuck when they're impaired
you don't let people do shit they can possibly regret heavily later when they're impaired

its a really, really easy concept to grasp


and good for you that you aren't somebody who lets their parties have a hostile air and you personally are not somebody who preys on drunk women, and that you don't go to parties where these things happen

but your saying this means literally nothing, because just because you personally dont do it,

there are people who wait around for people to get drunk so they can have sex with them
there are parties where these people hang around
and there are people don't care what happens to the inebriated at these parties

its not like I'm being a crazy person and ranting about something that never happens, people get raped when drunk all the time
and yes, i find that to be a pretty wrong thing that i would like to see changed, excuse me for being so radical

 

[Matthew]

That's irrelevant. There is no woman alive that would wear those hideous boots - especially in combination with that tank top and those shorts.

Not in college yet I see.

Also it's a kinda cute outfit so whatever.

 

[Ordinando]

before someone brings it up, someone saying they want to do something while sober does not mean you have consent when they are drunk later. being that drunk takes away one's ability to consent. simple as that.

 

[billymills]

holy shit you missed the point so completely i can't believe it

im not saying that having sex with somebody after having a few drinks is rape
im saying having sex with somebody who is so impaired they can't function is rape

you don't let people drive when impaired
you don't let people get tattoos when they're impaired
you don't let people fuck when they're impaired
you don't let people do shit they can possibly regret heavily later when they're impaired

its a really, really easy concept to grasp


and good for you that you aren't somebody who lets their parties have a hostile air and you personally are not somebody who preys on drunk women, and that you don't go to parties where these things happen

but your saying this means literally nothing, because just because you personally dont do it,

there are people who wait around for people to get drunk so they can have sex with them
there are parties where these people hang around
and there are people don't care what happens to the inebriated at these parties

its not like I'm being a crazy person and ranting about something that never happens, people get raped when drunk all the time
and yes, i find that to be a pretty wrong thing that i would like to see changed, excuse me for being so radical

I think anyone should be perfectly responsible for what they do while they are drunk. The reason people aren't allowed to drive while drunk is because they then pose a risk to a number of other people. If drunk drivers could only kill themselves, I wouldn't have any problem with it because they'd eventually die off.

I couldn't care less if people get tattoos when they're impaired. That affects no one except themselves. If you get drunk enough, and impaired enough that you make stupid decisions, they are still your decisions. Either don't get drunk or take proper precautions (bring friends to watch your back, like a designated driver, or drink in a safer location). This is not the same scenario as dressing provocatively or crossing a dark alleyway at night or whatever garbage. This is going out with the intention of going into a state of mind where you can not make straight decisions, often with the intention of making poor decisions, and then not wanting to be held responsible for those decisions.

Of course, if you're talking the state of mind where you're effectively passed out, incapable of even making a decision at all, then yes it is definitely rape as there is no consent to anything.

 

[Ordinando]

when you are drunk, you lose your ability to consent! that is the law!

 

[cim]

I couldn't care less if people get tattoos when they're impaired. That affects no one except themselves. If you get drunk enough, and impaired enough that you make stupid decisions, they are still your decisions. Either don't get drunk or take proper precautions (bring friends to watch your back, like a designated driver, or drink in a safer location). This is not the same scenario as dressing provocatively or crossing a dark alleyway at night or whatever garbage. This is going out with the intention of going into a state of mind where you can not make straight decisions, often with the intention of making poor decisions, and then not wanting to be held responsible for those decisions.

i think you are really misinterpreting what happens in many drunk date rape scenarios. it's not "girl has a few drinks, throws herself at a guy, regrets it the next morning and now he's in prison". it's more often "drinks are pushed on girl until she is so drunk she isn't aware of what's happening to her as a guy forces himself onto her and she isn't sober enough to fight back, say no, etc" or along those lines. it's really not an ambiguous scenario - the guy pushes her to drink and uses her impaired mental state for sexual gratification, taking advantage of her inebration so she won't fight back. this isn't the kind of thing that can happen by accident.

 

[TheValkyries]

If being drunk impairs one's decision making skill so much that yes does not even mean yes because one is drunk, does that mean that any killing committed while drunk is not murder, but involuntary manslaughter no matter what the circumstances are? That is the same logical argument one makes when one tries to say that a person cannot consent when he or she is drunk. It's stupid, and is a double standard. People are responsible for their actions no matter what state of mind they're in.

Let me put it in an easy to understand way, a girl and guy get drunk at a party, and both of them have sex. By what you're saying about consent not existing while drunk, that means that both of them have effectively raped each other by your definition. This is not how rape works.


Also, I agree with every single word Jumpluff has said to a fucking T. Perfect posts.

 

[billymills]

i think you are really misinterpreting what happens in many drunk date rape scenarios. it's not "girl has a few drinks, throws herself at a guy, regrets it the next morning and now he's in prison". it's more often "drinks are pushed on girl until she is so drunk she isn't aware of what's happening to her as a guy forces himself onto her and she isn't sober enough to fight back, say no, etc" or along those lines. it's really not an ambiguous scenario - the guy pushes her to drink and uses her impaired mental state for sexual gratification, taking advantage of her inebration so she won't fight back. this isn't the kind of thing that can happen by accident.

Of course, if you're talking the state of mind where you're effectively passed out, incapable of even making a decision at all, then yes it is definitely rape as there is no consent to anything.

The majority of my post was indeed concentrating on that first scenario, which is how I interpreted Nastyjungle's post. If he's making analogies to tattoos while impaired, I'm assuming there is no pushing of drinks until the target can no longer fight back. Unless I'm sincerely mistaken about the tattoo industry.

The last line of my post was referring to the scenario that you are talking about, in which case I agree that it is definitely rape.

 

[Stagnant]

I dont know why people argue these. I highly doubt anyone's opinion will change. This topic is going in a billion directions but...

it's more often "drinks are pushed on girl until she is so drunk she isn't aware of what's happening to her as a guy forces himself onto her and she isn't sober enough to fight back, say no, etc" or along those lines. it's really not an ambiguous scenario - the guy pushes her to drink and uses her impaired mental state for sexual gratification, taking advantage of her inebration so she won't fight back. this isn't the kind of thing that can happen by accident.

In this scenario, the girl is at fault for not maintaining control of a situation and denying the drinks. A quote from "A Girl with the Dragon Tattoo"

Martin Vanger: Let me ask you something. Why don't people trust their instincts? They sense something is wrong, someone is walking too close behind them. You knew something was wrong, but you came back into the house. Did I force you? Did I drag you in? No. All I had to do was offer you a drink. It's hard to believe that fear of a offending me is stronger than the fear of pain, but you know what? It is. And they always come willingly, and they sit there, they know its all over, just like you do. But somehow they still think that they have a chance, maybe if I say the right thing, maybe if I'm polite, if I cry, if I beg. And when I see their hope draining from their face, like it is from yours right now, I can feel myself getting hard. But you know, we're not that different, you and I. Both have urges. Satisfying mine requires more towels.

 

[Nastyjungle]

stagnant thats some shaky ass logic if ive ever heard it

maybe you know
the girl took the drinks because they were offered and assumed that she would not be raped?
maybe its the guys fault because you shouldnt buy drinks for somebody with the idea that at the end you're going to rape them?

thats like saying its a persons fault for getting stabbed because they couldn't disarm their attacker or something

 

[Arch]

"If you can't make fun of it, it isn't worth taking seriously" is my motto.

That's a fucking terrible motto.

 

[DM]

rape is not good
is it as bad as killing somebody/getting killed while driving drunk? not sure, i can't say to be honest.

rape used to be punishable by the death penalty until the 70s when those SCOTUS pussies said it was unconstitutional
killing someone while driving drunk is just criminally negligent, not punishable by death

so, yeah, I'd say it is worse

before someone brings it up, someone saying they want to do something while sober does not mean you have consent when they are drunk later. being that drunk takes away one's ability to consent. simple as that.

BINGO

i think you are really misinterpreting what happens in many drunk date rape scenarios. it's not "girl has a few drinks, throws herself at a guy, regrets it the next morning and now he's in prison". it's more often "drinks are pushed on girl until she is so drunk she isn't aware of what's happening to her as a guy forces himself onto her and she isn't sober enough to fight back, say no, etc"

BINGO AGAIN, LOTSA WINNERS TODAY

If being drunk impairs one's decision making skill so much that yes does not even mean yes because one is drunk, does that mean that any killing committed while drunk is not murder, but involuntary manslaughter no matter what the circumstances are? That is the same logical argument one makes when one tries to say that a person cannot consent when he or she is drunk. It's stupid, and is a double standard. People are responsible for their actions no matter what state of mind they're in.

Murder is a specific intent crime. Voluntary intoxication negates the necessary mental element of the crime. This is how the law works.

Let me put it in an easy to understand way, a girl and guy get drunk at a party, and both of them have sex. By what you're saying about consent not existing while drunk, that means that both of them have effectively raped each other by your definition. This is not how rape works.

Actually, yes, it is. A drunk person cannot LEGALLY give consent to the act. Both have committed rape, but neither will be prosecuted (obviously).

In this scenario, the girl is at fault for not maintaining control of a situation and denying the drinks. A quote from "A Girl with the Dragon Tattoo"

1. Great source for your argument, quite the respected scientific study.
2. You really have no idea how "date rape" works, do you.

 

[WaterBomb]

Let me tell you about a girl I know
Had a drink about an hour ago
Sitting in a corner by herself
In a bar in downtown Hell
She heard a noise, and looked to the door
And saw a man she'd never seen before
Light skin, light blue eyes
A double chin and a plastic smile, well
Her eyebrow raised as he walked in the door
And took an empty seat next to her at the bar
"My brand new car is parked right outside
How'd you like to go for a ride?" AND SHE SAID
"wait a minute, I have to think"
He said "That's fine, may I please buy you a drink?"
One drink turned into three or four
And they left and got into his car
And they drove away someplace real faaaaaaaaar...

I won't finish the rest, just wanted to back up DM's last point with some reliable evidence, spoken by well-respected philosopher and lyricist Bradley Nowell

 

[Outlaw]

Murder is a specific intent crime. Voluntary intoxication negates the necessary mental element of the crime. This is how the law works.

Uh, Rape isn't a specific intent crime either?

Oops sorry, I didn't intend to rape you.

 

[billymills]

I never thought the point of these threads was to explain the law. If it's the law it just means a few people thought it was a good idea a while ago. It does not mean it makes sense or is the best way of reacting. I thought we were arguing about what should the proper reaction be, where the law is debated as just another opinion that requires a basis.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

rape used to be punishable by the death penalty until the 70s when those SCOTUS pussies said it was unconstitutional

killing someone while driving drunk is just criminally negligent, not punishable by death

so, yeah, I'd say it is worse

Trying to avoid this whole discussion at all costs but can we avoid ridiculous claims like this. Are we really at the point in this discussion where we're saying unnatural death is better than being raped? It's fucking dying. That comparison is a gimme right there. I know you're bringing the law into this one DM, but sometimes the law shouldn't be how we judge actual severity of actions.

 

[iDunno]

Trying to avoid this whole discussion at all costs but can we avoid ridiculous claims like this. Are we really at the point in this discussion where we're saying unnatural death is better than being raped? It's fucking dying. That comparison is a gimme right there. I know you're bringing the law into this one DM, but sometimes the law shouldn't be how we judge actual severity of actions.

You don't have to live with the fact that you were murdered and you do have to live with the fact that you were raped. Rape victims are likely in many cases to attempt suicide after the fact so technically the rapist is putting the victim on a path where her death is more likely and is therefore responsible for her death if she does so choose to commit suicide. So yes, I agree that rape is just as bad - if not worse - a crime that murder is.

 

[Lee]

I don't think it's quite that simple Jabba; no drunk driver gets behind the wheel intending to kill somebody. Rapists, on the other hand, generally carry out the act fully aware of the physical and mental trauma they stand to inflict.

One is negligent whereas the other is outright malicious - which is 'worse' is a minefield that I'd rather not delve into but I think dispelling the idea that rape is a more heinous act as 'ridiculous' is a bit short-sighted.

the pic got a laugh out of me though, heh

 

[Solace]

With the Tosh stuff: http://austin.culturemap.com/newsde...e-heard-to-daniel-toshs-misquoted-rape-jokes/

Also I really don't get how people are still up on the provocative attire being a cause of rape, because if I wore a shirt that said "KILL ME" on it, I doubt any of you would think it would be a smart idea to shoot me in the face. What's the difference between a short skirt and a shirt like that?

And I agree with Nastyjungle's posts 100%.