They have been posted multiple times no? I believe it was a key factor that helped push him to win (as many had distinctly said, "Lets get a true Char counter").
Ah, that is disappointing. If only he had a way to get a double status or so off then.
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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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One note, what can't KO Charizard after SR?
I looked all over to see if this defensive behemoth might not get Whirlpool or Fire Spin to go along with its Perish Song, but unfortunately that's a no go. Probably a good thing because Perish Song / Protect / Roost / Trapping Move would be pretty ridiculous on it. Not getting Wish is a little unfortunate as well.
One quirky thing that it gets that MIGHT actually be WORK oddly is Dragon Breath, with Dragon STAB and a 30% chance of Paralysis it could be a nuisance. The new paralysis mechanics and terribly low base power is... awful though, so Moon Blast will almost always be the better option.
Moon Blast / Perish Song / Roost / Heal Bell is what I'd run, with max DEF (how does this thing not get Defog...?)
One quirky thing that it gets that MIGHT actually be WORK oddly is Dragon Breath, with Dragon STAB and a 30% chance of Paralysis it could be a nuisance. The new paralysis mechanics and terribly low base power is... awful though, so Moon Blast will almost always be the better option.
Moon Blast / Perish Song / Roost / Heal Bell is what I'd run, with max DEF (how does this thing not get Defog...?)
Haze not really. There's very little if any reason to Haze instead of Roar, which adds a lot more threat to Altaria. Roar + Perish Song will probably screw most Baton Pass teams anyway. Heal Bell is cool if you need it, but Natural Cure means Altaria itself doesn't really.
Isn't Soundproof Mr Mime basically a staple of Baton Pass teams? I believe he is unaffected by both Roar and Perish Song.
But do you really see those on the higher ranks of the ladder? Like... ever?
You don't see Baton Pass teams in general high up on the ladder. It doesn't really change the point. Chou said that Roar and Perish Song screw BP teams, and I said that I believe Mr Mime, a staple of BP teams, stops those moves.
The usage of those teams or Mr Mime is wholly irrelevant to the posts made.
Yeah, I suggested Dragonbreath earlier, but I forgot that Toxic is the only form of damage that Altaria will really be doing, although it'd be nice to have double status prowesss...
Also, what are these new paralysis mechanics? That electric types can't be paralyzed? Or is there something else?
Also, you're definitely going to want to run haze, it's a must for stopping Dragon Dance Mega Char X
Perish Song is pretty unnecessary.
Let's not get too far from the topic-- it's true that Mr. Mime messes with Perish Song and Roar (too bad no Whirlwind...), but it's also true that you wouldn't run Haze over Roar just because you're worried about Baton Pass teams (at least not in this meta). When the enemy has ANY Perish songer, a BP team has to be additionally careful-- this is undeniable.
Let's get back to discussing Altaria's more concrete uses.
LoDart210 -- yeah was referring to the electric-types-not-getting-paralyzed bit
Let's get back to discussing Altaria's more concrete uses.
LoDart210 -- yeah was referring to the electric-types-not-getting-paralyzed bit
I think it is the plethora resistances the Fairy re-typing provides/retains, such as Fighting, Dark, Bug, Fire, Water etc. that really makes Altaria becomes more viable in OU. Natural Cure benefits from this very well as it is an abiltiy that requires switching to work. Being neutral to Rocks mean no more 25% off when switching in and resisting Dark means Pursuit is not as threatening. Along with her 75/90/105 defenses, she can sponge up attacks easily. I think Air Lock is not as potent as it was in Gen5 with weather being less dominating in the metagame, although I could be wrong.
So what I am thinking here is, along with Perish Song and her Bulk+Typing, Altaria can switch into undesirable match-ups, sponge a hit or status, then fire off a Perish Song or a Roar or maybe even a Toxic to force a switch and Rest up the damage then switch out.
Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Nature: Calm
-Perish Song
-Roar
-Toxic
-Rest
So what I am thinking here is, along with Perish Song and her Bulk+Typing, Altaria can switch into undesirable match-ups, sponge a hit or status, then fire off a Perish Song or a Roar or maybe even a Toxic to force a switch and Rest up the damage then switch out.
Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Nature: Calm
-Perish Song
-Roar
-Toxic
-Rest
it seems like, as a support mon, Altaria has a crippling case of 4MSS
For example. How does it handle set up sweepers? If you're checking the charizards, haze is best, because you need to stay in to get rid of them.
Then again, roar is a better option all around against other pokemon.
Also, as to how it heals itself, roost seems to be the most obvious option, but natural cure rest is definitely a possibility as few things, if anything, will OHKO it.
Then there's the option of a coverage move. It might not need one at all since it will be sent out against pokemon that don't have taunt, so it need not worry running full support, but then it needs toxic. But should you decide to run a coverage move, which? Draco Meteor and Moonblast are the only hard hitting ones (if you can call them that) but dragonbreath provides double status, and fire blast lets you hit steels....
I'd like to think that would mean you could tailor Altaria to fit your needs...
For example. How does it handle set up sweepers? If you're checking the charizards, haze is best, because you need to stay in to get rid of them.
Then again, roar is a better option all around against other pokemon.
Also, as to how it heals itself, roost seems to be the most obvious option, but natural cure rest is definitely a possibility as few things, if anything, will OHKO it.
Then there's the option of a coverage move. It might not need one at all since it will be sent out against pokemon that don't have taunt, so it need not worry running full support, but then it needs toxic. But should you decide to run a coverage move, which? Draco Meteor and Moonblast are the only hard hitting ones (if you can call them that) but dragonbreath provides double status, and fire blast lets you hit steels....
I'd like to think that would mean you could tailor Altaria to fit your needs...
I really wonder if dragon/fairy altaria would reach OU anyway. I guess it would still have a small niche even if its usage wasnt high enough..
But I dont think it is capable enough to try and deal with the charizard megas. CharY hits it for 40%ish with air slash which comes with a 30% flinch rate, while having great special defense to deal with whatever altaria decides to throw back. CharX can roost through draco meteors, and its 78/111 physical defense is more than enough to not get 2hkod by dragon claw, unless altaria is going to start investing EVs in attack, at which point she is majorly outclassed.
Her best set is probably going to be just abusing her unique dual STABs and then using the semi-rare support option she has with heal bell/ perish song, although heal bell is probably going to be the most useful as that means she doesnt need to pack natural cure and can have the wonky niche of preventing weather effects from tyranitar and charY- while she probably wont beat these pokemon, she can still stop the rest of the team from trying to abuse their effects (for instance sand force megachomp).
She has access to ice beam and stuff like that but without stab, draco meteor outdamages it anyway even on dragon/flying pokemon.
While looking like a specially defensive mon, she probably will fare best as a physically defensive support seeings as she takes the stab away from a lot of physical dragons, and with some investment can avoid 2hkos from their coverage. For instance, she is a decent megachomp check as she is immune to dragon claw/ outrage, and avoids the 2hko from earthquake (negating sand force and sandstorm with cloud nine to ensure it). From there she can hit back with a moonblast -> draco meteor for a 2hko.
She also avoids the 2hko from 2 +1 earthquakes from dragonite, and with multiscale broken she can hit back for 64-76%, which is enough for an ohko with stealth rock and some prior damage. I feel like Im overselling it a bit, but its a decent cleric which also has some utility with its ability to check a lot of dragons and ko them with a moonblast -> draco meteor combo.. sometimes.
Altaria @ Leftovers | Cloud Nine
Bold | 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpA
-Draco Meteor
-Moonblast
-Roost
-Heal Bell
But I dont think it is capable enough to try and deal with the charizard megas. CharY hits it for 40%ish with air slash which comes with a 30% flinch rate, while having great special defense to deal with whatever altaria decides to throw back. CharX can roost through draco meteors, and its 78/111 physical defense is more than enough to not get 2hkod by dragon claw, unless altaria is going to start investing EVs in attack, at which point she is majorly outclassed.
Her best set is probably going to be just abusing her unique dual STABs and then using the semi-rare support option she has with heal bell/ perish song, although heal bell is probably going to be the most useful as that means she doesnt need to pack natural cure and can have the wonky niche of preventing weather effects from tyranitar and charY- while she probably wont beat these pokemon, she can still stop the rest of the team from trying to abuse their effects (for instance sand force megachomp).
She has access to ice beam and stuff like that but without stab, draco meteor outdamages it anyway even on dragon/flying pokemon.
While looking like a specially defensive mon, she probably will fare best as a physically defensive support seeings as she takes the stab away from a lot of physical dragons, and with some investment can avoid 2hkos from their coverage. For instance, she is a decent megachomp check as she is immune to dragon claw/ outrage, and avoids the 2hko from earthquake (negating sand force and sandstorm with cloud nine to ensure it). From there she can hit back with a moonblast -> draco meteor for a 2hko.
She also avoids the 2hko from 2 +1 earthquakes from dragonite, and with multiscale broken she can hit back for 64-76%, which is enough for an ohko with stealth rock and some prior damage. I feel like Im overselling it a bit, but its a decent cleric which also has some utility with its ability to check a lot of dragons and ko them with a moonblast -> draco meteor combo.. sometimes.
Altaria @ Leftovers | Cloud Nine
Bold | 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpA
-Draco Meteor
-Moonblast
-Roost
-Heal Bell
That's not true. As I said before:
0 SpA Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 240-284 (80.5 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also,
0 SpA Altaria Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 158-188 (53 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, I've been trying, and I can't see any way for Altaria to check both Zards at the same time. The physically defensive one dies to MZard Y, and the specially defensive one dies to MZard X.
I also must say I wish she got Gravity so she could utilize Sing.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria in Sun: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 136-162 (38.4 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Uhm... no. Defensive Altaria can easily toxic stall Char-Y.
Unless it gets a few unlucky flinches but most Zards dont run Air Slash
I so hate seeing Air Slash being used for calcs....its just weird. but that's a minor quip
So what have seemed to be the best sets yall have seen posted so far?
Believe me, I know Zard-Y doesn't run air slash. Some low level players do, so it's not absolutely impossible to come across it, also, I just wanted to highlight that, even with a neutral effective stab move, Zard-Y doesn't 2HKO defensive Altaria, as was claimed.
The only pokemon that can viably run air slash is Togekiss. Besides that, you won't see Air Slash anywhere except lowbies.
The only thing a charizard Y can do to a fully defensive Altaria is spam fire blast praying for a burn or crit and no miss
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria in Sun: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
We've already said how it beats X, so can we talk about something else?
The only thing a charizard Y can do to a fully defensive Altaria is spam fire blast praying for a burn or crit and no miss
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria in Sun: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
We've already said how it beats X, so can we talk about something else?
How about how it walls the musketeers and tyranitar? How could it counter them? What about other powerful sweepers like Mega Heracross (lol) and Garchomp, what about dragonite?
All right,
Keldeo:
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 148-177 (41.8 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Altaria Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 168-198 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Virizion:
252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 66-78 (18.6 - 22%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Altaria Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 122-146 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cobalion:
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 158-188 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Altaria Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 102-120 (31.4 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Terrakion:
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Altaria Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 168-198 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Heracross:
0 SpA Altaria Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 155-185 (43.7 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Garchomp:
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Altaria Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 176-210 (49.1 - 58.6%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
Mega Garchomp:
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 154-183 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Altaria Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 162-192 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO
Dragonite:
This one's tricky. If I were using Dragonite, I'd use DD, take the SE hit for the WP boost, and:
+3 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 236-278 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While getting 2HKO'd by moonblast. Still a pretty solid counter
So, don't use it on Cobalion (not that much of an issue), but with a safe switch in (not that hard on Virizion or the dragons), it walls all of these.
Mega Manectric walled
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 130-154 (36.7 - 43.5%)
Infernape walled:
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 84-100 (23.7 - 28.2%)
252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 113-133 (31.9 - 37.5%)
Thundurus walled:
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 161-190 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO (Need a bit of investisment SpeDef to avoid completly the 2HKO )
Keldeo walled:
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 148-177 (41.8 - 50%)
Volcarona walled:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 153-182 (43.2 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lati@s walled:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%)
PS: i've never seen virizion or cobalion in this meta ...
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 130-154 (36.7 - 43.5%)
Infernape walled:
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 84-100 (23.7 - 28.2%)
252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 113-133 (31.9 - 37.5%)
Thundurus walled:
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 161-190 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO (Need a bit of investisment SpeDef to avoid completly the 2HKO )
Keldeo walled:
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 148-177 (41.8 - 50%)
Volcarona walled:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 153-182 (43.2 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lati@s walled:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%)
PS: i've never seen virizion or cobalion in this meta ...
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Oh believe me, I know, just sorta irked me. Ya good though man, point is made clear.
and those calcs....to think he is actually dealing damage and wall them so damn well! XD
No you don't... Charizards hate being forced out because of this thing called *Stealth Rock* Go with Roar against all set up sweepers. Honestly, I don't think of this thing as having 4 move slot syndom at all. Roost + Moon Blast, Roar or Perish Song (you only need 1 usually), + 1 additional support move. Looks to be fine to me! Sure you can't do a lot of damage to Charizard Y, but just pack SR and watch Altaria's health.
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