Other The Old Stall and the New

[Clair]

***Dear mods - I think this topic is sufficiently different to that of the main 'Stall' discussion to merit its own thread***

Most players will have noticed, since the introduction of XY, two different kinds of pure stall evolving. These are:

• Traditional Stall : Aiming to wear the opponent's team down predominantly through entry hazards
• XY Stall : Much less dependent on entry hazards, typically employing only Stealth Rock; more focused on inflicting status to wear down opponents

The obvious reason for the emergence of this new kind of stall is Defog, which makes conserving multiple entry hazards extremely difficult (especially for stall which can apply little direct offensive pressure). The omnipresence of Defog often forces traditional stall teams to run specific anti-Defog strategies such as fast Taunt users, lures or trappers for common Defog users, or Pokemon with the Defiant / Competitive abilities to discourage the move.

Modern stall teams, by using only Stealth Rock and relying on other forms of residual damage to wear down threats (status and weather, often in conjunction with Knock Off), reduce their vulnerability to Defog (and in fact regularly use it themselves to deal with opposing Spikestacking teams). However, the rising popularity of Clerics has left XY stall in a similar position to traditional stall. Both variants are neutered by either Defog or Heal Bell/Aromatherapy.

So the questions I want this thread to examine is: which kind of stall do you think works better? And which Pokemon or strategies do you use to get around Defoggers or Clerics?

 

[PrincessDerpy]

The rising popularity of clerics has little to do with stall, and much more to do with the rising use of status in general. Burns are almost omnipresent in the current metagame.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Omnipresence of defog? Ok. I've seen a lot more spinners (especially Excadrill) than defoggers, but I don't really care enough to argue about it. Since I never really liked what you call "traditional stall", I'll mostly talk about the "new" stall.

The best user is probably Gliscor, as its ability gives it huge recovery and immunity to toxic (as well as other statuses after the first turn), and he doesn't really care about clerics because he'd just repoison his opponents if they switched out, and nobody really wants to give it a free turn to sub up anyway as substitute + protect is a pain.

There's also the leech seeders, including Ferrothorn, MVenusaur, Breloom, Chesnaught, and a few others, but they don't care about clerics because of how leech seed ends with the switch. They care more about not being KO'd by their checks, like Talonflame.

Other Toxic users are out there, I personally have had great success with Porygon2, but there are a lot more.

I've also had success with an Arcanine, as it can wall most physical attackers with Intimidate + WoW + Morning Sun. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a stall set though as I usually end up KOing with Flare Blitz after healing myself. That's assuming your opponent didn't switch

 

[Chou Toshio]

I would also agree with the OP that this deserves its own thread. While the topic could be discussed in the old thread, the objective of the thread is different, and I think pointing out this difference and focusing discussion around it is worth a thread (though maybe not a really long one-- I think we'll probably cover this topic well enough in a few pages). Let's give this thread a shot.

As for the subject, I would also agree that traditional stall is just not a very feasible strategy in this metagame. It's just too easy to remove hazards.

One thing is true though, and that's that this meta has defensive cores that are truly hard to crack, and there are a lot more options with reliable recovery thanks to the weather nerf (Venu's Synthesis, Cress' Moolinght, etc.). The enhanced ability of Phazers is nice as well. Just SR and forcing switches can be enough to win games, especially when facing overly frail enemies.

"New Stall" is a lot more offensive than Traditional-- combining some attacking power and statusing to great defensive build to win instead of relying on hazards alone. This indeed means it is a lot more like bulky offense than Traditional Stall, however-- I'd say that it also means that "new stall" is closer to the fundamental nature of Pokemon battles; Good prediction/attack and good switching now with regained importance in the strategy.

 

[nmitchell890]

As an avid user of XY stall I can say that it is much more effective in the current metagame. Setting up Spikes is such a hassle and when the opponent can easily switch in their Defog user and clear them (stall finds it much more difficult to stop them doing this due to lack of offensive pressure) not to mention the presence of the best user of Rapid Spin ever in OU (Excadrill) its not worth the effort. In comparison, status moves take one turn and cripple opponents permanently unless the opponent has a cleric, which is much less common than Defog. Contrary to most people, I find Assault Vest very effective on XY stall when used by the right pokemon, Tangrowth and Slowbro are very good users of the item and can still support the team with Knock Off and Scald respectively despite the restrictions of the item.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

I have been coming to the same conclusion that XY stall overall has been leaning toward bulky offense with lots of status.

I have noticed that setting up Spikes is just such a pain, especially when a defogger (who is most of the time immune to them) can just clean them all out in one turn. It's much more productive to just burn/poison the enemy with these turns.

Also, there has been a need for Spinners to get more and more offensive. I many times look at Forretress and feel sad because in this meta he simply does not get the job done. He is way too passive: any ghost can spinblock him.


That doesn't mean stall is dead; rather, it means that it is more dynamic. With tons of dangerous sweepers and lots of mons that can easily remove hazards, stall teams cannot afford to waste turns setting up spikes or getting spinblocked. More than ever stall teams need some muscle to force the opponent to respect them, but thankfully XY does provide the tools stall teams need to succeed.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

I many times look at Forretress and feel sad because in this meta he simply does not get the job done. He is way too passive: any ghost can spinblock him.

Forretress has been working pretty well for me actually, mind you I don't run stall (mostly bulky offense with a lot of momentum grabbing) and while he can't always guarantee a spin, he can grab momentum with volt switch or set up his own rocks, the buff to overcoat allows him to absorb spore/sleep powder, sturdy isn't that useful as no physical move except maybe a stab fire move will ohko him anyway and he has no business staying in on neutral special hits. And sturdy will be broken by the hazards he is supposed to spin anyway.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

Forretress has been working pretty well for me actually, mind you I don't run stall (mostly bulky offense with a lot of momentum grabbing) and while he can't always guarantee a spin, he can grab momentum with volt switch or set up his own rocks, the buff to overcoat allows him to absorb spore/sleep powder, sturdy isn't that useful as no physical move except maybe a stab fire move will ohko him anyway and he has no business staying in on neutral special hits. And sturdy will be broken by the hazards he is supposed to spin anyway.

I agree. Sturdy on Forretress is outclassed by Overcoat.

I can see how Forretress can work on more offensive teams thanks to Volt Switch (it gives him a niche), but his lack of reliable recovery kinda hurts him when he is pushed into a defensive role.

It's really funny if you think about it. The only spinners that have reliable recovery are Starmie, Cryogonal, and Avalugg, all three of which have terrible defensive typing.

 

[Photofluid]

I have been coming to the same conclusion that XY stall overall has been leaning toward bulky offense with lots of status.

I have noticed that setting up Spikes is just such a pain, especially when a defogger (who is most of the time immune to them) can just clean them all out in one turn. It's much more productive to just burn/poison the enemy with these turns.

Also, there has been a need for Spinners to get more and more offensive. I many times look at Forretress and feel sad because in this meta he simply does not get the job done. He is way too passive: any ghost can spinblock him.


That doesn't mean stall is dead; rather, it means that it is more dynamic. With tons of dangerous sweepers and lots of mons that can easily remove hazards, stall teams cannot afford to waste turns setting up spikes or getting spinblocked. More than ever stall teams need some muscle to force the opponent to respect them, but thankfully XY does provide the tools stall teams need to succeed.

I agree, honestly even with the attempt to run full status/EH stall, it is more than often that it would just be better to finish the game with sheer power, and with sheer power I mean uninvested Lava plume/Scald/Knock off. It really pissed me off how weak the passive damages are when compared to the powerful attacks around. And EH, arguably the best form of passive damage, is severely nerfed.

Currently 3HKOs are already a nice check to the majority of meta, and beyond 4HKO is rare as it possibly could. So instead of doing any kind of possible set up for future advantage, it would be right off better to just finish your opponent off as quickly as possible.

On the other hand, it is noteworthy that the only way to "defog-block" by far is bisharp, or you just exert sufficient offensive pressure. So, we can safely conclude that we don't have any defensive measure against it. It simply does not worth it for defensive teams to spend time stacking EH.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

I feel like the main goal of neo-stall is to set up stealth rocks and threaten would be spinners/defoggers with either status or a meaty punch to the face, all the while predicting the opponent with timely switches to stop their advances.

The time used before to set up spikes is now used to burn and poison the opponent.

Good neo-staller pokemon are those who have some or all of the following:
-Lots of ways to status the opponent
-Can threaten the enemy with powerful attacks
-Can sponge many different attacks and preferably has reliable recovery
-Can reliably spin/spinblock

Mega Venusaur is an epitome of neo-stall, as it fits three of these categories.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

I feel like the best way to protect your hazards ATM is sableye, ghost type + prankster taunt and a great defensive type, it also gets foul play/knock off to deal with threats/remove items.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

I feel like the best way to protect your hazards ATM is sableye, ghost type + prankster taunt and a great defensive type, it also gets foul play/knock off to deal with threats/remove items.

Plus a solid statusing option in the form of Will-o-Wisp

 

[Bedschibaer]

I thought the blue text in the OP were links ._.

Generally i would say stall is incredibly hard to play at the moment, with Mega-Lucario, Genesect and Manaphy running around on almost every team. Some people say Bulky offense is the most dominant playstyle at the moment, and while that is true, Volt-Turn is as high up there, with Rotom-W and Genesect having extremely high usage. Last generation Volt-Turn teams weren't that big of a problem with easier hazard stacking and the fact that Genesect got banned, making them lack quite some firepower to break through stall. After a couple of suspect rounds the metagame should stabilize a bit so stall in general becomes more viable.
The old kind of stall is kind of dead. No more easy hazard stacking, not only because of defog, but also because there are more spinners than starmie that can actually beat ghost types now, mainly excadrill. The fact that permaweather is dead also hinders lots of stall. The residual damage from Sand doesn't wrap up that hard anymore, no permarain means no more easy Rain Dish/Dry Skin recovery, no Rest Hydration, etc. And Sun and Hail stall never were dominant playstyles to begin with, but even the sun Moonlight Cresselia is kind of hindered, even though it benefits from other weathers being not as dominant anymore.
The "new" kind of stall actually reminds me a bit of the oldest kind of stall, the one in GSC, where your only real task was simply not to lose. It's not the same, but it did make a step back to that from the heavily hazard dependent stall game to a "do not lose before your opponent does" game.

 

[Grey Knight]

Its so nice that the monotonous, entry hazards relied, spin risk wars including ,weather abusing, boring game producing and rage inducing game style called stall is fainting faster than parasect taking darma's FB.

Personally i wont miss the typicall 35 turn games against almost indetical and metagame infesting sand and rain (semi) stall teams that looked like they just came out off the production line of some great metathesiophobia fueled factory.

The wind of change called defog isnt just providing a new way to get rid of hazards itdestroys a game style with the help of fairies that can now deal with dragons much better that steels, helping making much more flexible teams, as for what you call new stall it existed back in BW although few people could deal with the defensive to offensive presense deficit of most walls other than just capitalising on hazards damage,pairing walls with hard hitting mons and covering ones weaknesses with the others avds is the way to go for future defensive teams imho the question is how mature is the player base for such a big change . Sorry for double posting i get some character limit per msg sorry

 

[Photofluid]

Its so nice that the monotonous, entry hazards relied, spin risk wars including ,weather abusing, boring game producing and rage inducing game style called stall is fainting faster than parasect taking darma's FB.

Personally i wont miss the typicall 35 turn games against almost indetical and metagame infesting sand and rain (semi) stall teams that looked like they just came out off the production line of some great metathesiophobia fueled factory.

The wind of change called defog isnt just providing a new way to get rid of hazards itdestroys a game style with the help of fairies that can now deal with dragons much better that steels, helping making much more flexible teams, as for what you call new stall it existed back in BW although few people could deal with the defensive to offensive presense deficit of most walls other than just capitalising on hazards damage,pairing walls with hard hitting mons

Well, there always exists players than want to end the game in 8 turns, there always exist players who are too bad to work on stall breaking without relying on chain crits, there always exists players who somehow think that it is sinful to not end the game quick enough(though 35 is shorter than expect), there always exists players who refuse to press forfeit even they know they have no hope winning and instead blame the opponent for not ending the quick enough, there always exists impatient players who for some reason explode like a bomb while the opponent is doing nothing insulting and follows the rules strictly.

Plus, it was not like stall players love EH so much, but that GF is so brilliant to make EH the only reliable way to deal indirect damage. Bar this we have only 2 damaging status which do not stacks, one status which lose effect on switch, and all of these are immuned by like 1/10 of the meta respectively. And the rest are just having some really pathetic distribution to be used in any constant manner.

Anyway, back to the topic, trading blows is the last thing you want to do as a stall player at least in my personal opinion, it is a huge misfortune that we are finally getting to this point. The only new toy we have by far is infestation, are there any one who have actually tried it out? It is arguably the last hope of traditional stall.

 

[Clair]

Interesting that the vote is so one-sided. The main thing that's come out of the discussion so far for me is the increased need for offensive momentum on stall. By not giving away free turns by laying hazards, "stall" presents much fewer free switch-ins or set-up opportunities (which is 100% necessary in this metagame). It's tough to say if you can draw a line between this type of stall and bulky offense. The other thing which comes up is quickstall, which is a very offensive take on stall which seems like it could be a natural evolution of the modern stall teams we're seeing.

Agreeing that trapping moves are another potentially useful source of residual damage for new stall teams. The extra damage is important, especially in conjunction with Protect and status damage, but you also can't overstate the importance of being able to switch to your counter without worrying about a doubleswitch. Heatran, Goodra, Gastrodon and a few others can all effectively abuse trapping moves.

 

[SansNickel]

I personally run a gastrodon with infestation, just to get all the Rotom-W's that are so greedy and HAVE to burn you before switching out lol. Stall is really hard to play now, and I currently run a super niche kind of stall, pressure stall (2180 in OU), which unfortunately doesn't really belong in this thread :/

I find that the trapping moves other than infestation are too much trouble for what they're worth. The 85% accuracy is meh, and you miss too often (and they have too many common immunities) to make them useful. I know at the very beginning of this gen, I tried out pokemon like sub/protect/torment/firespin heatran and sub/protect/torment/rocktomb poison heal gliscor, both of which worked decently. I found that those sets let heatran and gliscor overcome their checks, as unless a pokemon has two things to hit heatran effectively (two out of water/fight/ground is somewhat uncommon, actually), heatran would almost always get a sub up, and protect on the correct turns. However, the set also caused heatran to lose against what it would normally win against. For example, it couldn't beat talonflame with roost, especially one with swords dance.

All in all, I believe the only real buffs to stall are the nerfed crits (this is HUGE), and the lowered power special moves.

Traditional stall is generally dead (there are still many teams without a defogger, but it still means damage by EH is unreliable), and XY stall isn't really stall at all.

 

[Ajwf]

In my opinion, you aren't dealing with old and new but rather a question that has been discussed at great lengths in our stall thread (more to the lines of what it takes to run effective stall right now). The hazard stall that became common in BW was because you could reliably deal at least 36% damage a turn on the average pokemon (spikes/Rocks/sand). This doesn't exist this generation and those few that voted for 'traditional stall' aka hazard phaze stall are out of their minds if they think there is any reliability in it.

Mind you, hazards at max level are still very plausible, but I would say it is bulky offense's gig now (ghost/Defiant/setter core... get some of that defog use). Stall, however, has rightfully relinquished this style as it is greatly ineffective. As someone who pays enormous attention to the RMT forums, I can say that so far I have seen 1 of 6 true stall teams and 1 semi stall team running spikes. But XY's definition of stall is actually much different from your own definition (Status damaging). This is part of traditional stall and largely ineffective. Let me give you an overview of what XY stall is.

Now, I'm just going to use our RMT forum to search, and a few people in specific. SansNickel's Under Pressure, LiarLiarPantsOnFire's Stall Reborn, Ubiquitous' Full Spikes-less Stall, Pkmn Gravija's Takeshi's Castle and my own teams are the full stall teams I'll draw from and BackStreetTabby's Extrapolation is a semi-stall team I'll look at. A mention to Pipotchi's Gothitelle's Reign of Terror (who I have only barely looked over, but plan to check out... we discussed Goth as an OU counter-cleric in the stall thread) and Arthy's Momentum Stall (who had a concept Yuttt and I had been discussing for a little while). Yuttt hasn't made his RMT yet (not sure he will... he has some good teams, though) but I know most of his (older ones) already. (I'd freaking URL those, but I'd be a mess on this side trying to type after). There are a few stall teams I didn't include... it's either because I'm not sure they hold a stall mentality, I haven't gotten around to reading it, or I simply didn't think it was a good team to draw examples from.

I also use these teams specifically because they are very defensive, exemplify different ways of playing stall and are successful in some way/shape/form. (In the case of Pipotchi's, I can tell that team is successful... That team is scary and a completely different style of our playstlye that I think (s)he is the first to have RMT'd anything similar to that style.

Some numbers about distribution

So, from all these standard stall (which doesn't include Arthy, Pipotchi, BST) teams, the first thing to notice is the cores. Most (all but three) ran mega venusaur. All but one took advantage of a mega. Only two (SansNickel, Liarliar [later on, I'll talk about the other three, as BST has spikes as of now]) took advantage of spikes. seven of nine teams (This is including the ones I wasn't including earlier) have at least three pokemon using two attacks. This may seem normal, but old stall used to run one attack move, status, recovery, hazard/phazer/general utility move. With less hazards, more attacks/coverage is being taken advantage of. All of the teams but Under Pressure/Extrapolation had either Skarm or Tran, many used both.

Status moves per team are relatively the same, actually. 2.2 Status moves per team (those 9) was the average, with the mode being 3. Sleep powder venu (2?) and toxic heatran (4) were the most common scenarios. Contrary to a belief of an increase, they remain almost unchanged. So the guess that Status stall is a thing is pretty wrong (Dreadnoughts and Stall Reborn were the two teams with one status move).

Utility attack moves (In this context, a move that causes a status at a rate of 30%+, reduces a stat at 30% efficiency and knock off/foul play/pursuit) are being used at a rate of 2.6 per team (Arthy's was low (2) because of all the VoltTurn, average was realistically about 3.3, and a possible change in my team is probably going to bring this to three). This, however, is up. Foul play/pursuit/Knock off are up in usage on stall by incredible amounts.

Hazard slots, from my memory, should be 11 per 9. Maybe 12 per 9. But that in itself is basically telling: 3 of 9 have spikes. One of them is semi-stall (which I suggested protect over, but hey). This is easily telling of the new focus. Everyone is running rocks, though.
4 of 7 have ghost types. 2 of the ghosts were not on spike teams.

The metagame of stall varies, though. In fact, even in these seven, there are a few distinguishable styles.

Those Styles

The bulky powerhouses of Spikes-less Stall and the Icebreakers run a very slow team, relying on overall bulk. These teams probably resemble what can be said to the closest of last gen's stall, without hazards. However, each of these teams have a sign of adaptation. Spikes-less runs an all-out attacker AV tyranitar, the Icebreakers runs a bulky tank Charizard-X. These tanks in themselves aren't too different from a norm in stall BW, but both of these tanks are offensive minded in comparison to the generally defensive tanks of BW. Neither of these have massive speed/attack investment, as they still take a ton of hits but have a more powerful offensive presence. I've been calling this the Remnant Style due to it drawing direct styles from BW without much adaptation but a few more offensive twists. BST's Extrapolation is a stall team, but slightly more offensive (he calls it semi-stall, but it looks very stall to me). The concept is probably blended more towards the Remnant Style (I like that title for the bulky slower version, going to use it) but a twist exists with the fact that this is a full sand team with a dedicated revenge killer/offensive pivot. His team is actually nearly identical to BW2 stall, very archaic, but it still has the adaptations of a modern team with the offensive presence lurking in tyranitar...

The next type is very similar, but it actually is almost unprecedented in stall. The Dreadnoughts, Stall Revived, and Takeshi's Castle all have a revenge killer. The speed investments outspeed at least mega lucario, and any bulk investment is mainly secondary. All of these do have utility purpose outside of revenge killing. Dreadnought's Tornadus-T is an offensive pivot and has knock off. Castle's Crowbat has defog and taunt, acting as a stall breaker. Garchomp is a natural wall-breaker. The morphing of a revenge killer into a stall utility mon is probably what makes these teams unique, let alone the possession of a revenge killer.

Now comes the more interesting/abstract styles. SansNickel's Under Pressure is a very unique team that focuses on pressure. His team also has a revenge killer/support mon in ditto, but I wanted to give this team special notice because the stalling itself is actually passive. While Zap/Deo-D/Dusc are tried/tested stall mons, and suicune's set is going to stall for days, the team actually runs relatively 'normally', having a band and scarf. It relies on pressure to turn 16 PP moves into 8 PP ones and 8 into 4. Against crocune, deo-d, and Zapdos, an opponent can easily run out of the attacks they need to take one of these bulky monsters down. The fact that it not only has a revenge killer (also all-purpose, given that it depends on what he brings it in on), but what I'd call a wall breaker in Entei is rather foreign to stall altogether.

Arthy's Momentum Stall is something Yuttt and I had discussed. The concept is really good: A bunch of slow, bulky walls that have access to some pivot move could be used together as a stall team. This eases prediction and gains momentum, something stall rarely has. Hazard control, of course, becomes paramount but you instantly have a 'mobile wall'. Rotom-w and Regenerator Torn were his two pivots, but Yuttt and I also discussed using Zapdos, Mew/Uxie, Xatu, Gliscor, jirachi, Mandibuzz, Mega-Scizor, Manaphy (HydraRest), Victini (who knows...), Lanturn, magnezone, the other rotoms and Hydregion all are possibilities for this style. Many of these even have recovery. These style hasn't been explored yet but has a great deal of potential. I think Arthy's team name should describe this whole style: Momentum Stall.

And finally, Gothitelle's Reign of Terror, the newest stall team on the RMT that I haven't quite gotten through yet. This team looks absolutely monstrous and is definitely the most aggressive stall team I have seen. It involves a trapper that, in Piptochi's team, disables clerics and spinners by giving them a choice scarf. Not only that, but this thing can revenge kill and carries the team's heal bell. The rock setter is also a wall breaker, the defogger a standard mandi (which is a stall breaker). Instead of relying on mega venu's bulk, the special attack was invested in. I would suppose that using giga drain, this actually benefits to gain health. Honestly, a tactical trapping team is incredibly scarey, especially when there's a pivot.

So, at the end of the day, I think this thread is rediculous for asking what kind of stall (Old or New) because there are some major variations. I'm not going to go much into the theory of what is required of stall currently, since we possess a thread for that, but I do think this question is nearly facetious.

 

[Cajunrabbi]

To follow up on Rotten's post, MegaSuar is an absolute monster for stall right now.
He manages to handle a lot of major threats such as Bellyjet Zoomy and Mawmaw. It's extremely easy to build a core around, and loads of peeps tend to forget Thick Fat.
Frankly, I'm for just setting up SR, relaying on status and crippling physical threats with WoW. It feels like there's a lot less pressure to hold up all your spikes. Really all that's important is building a solid core with a cleric to weather the storm.

Here's a few games:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-76411921

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-76409989
(Coulda made better plays on Emp, but the end result came out as desired.)

 

[Yuttt]

It seems that the main idea of stall is the same for both the 'old stall' and the 'xy stall', having counters for every threat in the meta. The difference is, what those two playstyles do with the free turns gained by switching in counters. The 'old stall' stacks hazards and phazes, while the 'xy stall' deals damage, whether by leech seed, burns, toxic, or just attacking. At this point in the meta, 'xy stall' is more common by far. This is due to the presence of defoggers making setting spikes a burden. For 'old stall', you need a spiker that can get up spikes reliably. Last gen, this was easy to do, as you only had to get it up once, then just use a ghost-type to spinblock, ensuring your hazards for the whole game. However, now your hazards will be removed easily, and you have no hope of punishing that. Now, to use 'old stall', you have to have a spikes setter that can set up spikes not only reliably, but multiple times throughout the whole game. There are 4 main pokemon able to do this: Skarmory, Ferrothorn (although it has lost popularity due to the lack of rain), Deoxys-D, and Chesnaught. (note that I left out Forretress, as it has no recovery besides leftovers, making it an unreliable choice for stall) As there are only 4 available, this greatly hinders the creativity in this playstyle. Also, if the opponent manages to keep their defogger safe, you have to make sure you can get rid of it somehow. For the spiking playstyle, the most common way (at least last gen) was phazing to wear down the team. Now, in stall teams, it seems like there are nearly no phazers at all, so you have to make sure you can pressure the opposing defogger every time it comes in. Most defensive defoggers (skarmory, mandibuzz), will be threatened by electric, so keep that in mind.

As for 'xy stall', I find that they don't aim to wear down the opposing team mainly with statuses, but rather utilizing attacking moves to accomplish that. They switch in a counter, then deal damage to the switchin, wearing them down. I call this 'offensive stall'.

Basically, spikes+phazing stall has faded away, and more offensive stall is predominate right now, although I expect when the metagame settles down, spiking stall will make a comeback with the addition of the new spiker, Chesnaught.

 

[Photofluid]

It seems that the main idea of stall is the same for both the 'old stall' and the 'xy stall', having counters for every threat in the meta. The difference is, what those two playstyles do with the free turns gained by switching in counters. The 'old stall' stacks hazards and phazes, while the 'xy stall' deals damage, whether by leech seed, burns, toxic, or just attacking. At this point in the meta, 'xy stall' is more common by far. This is due to the presence of defoggers making setting spikes a burden. For 'old stall', you need a spiker that can get up spikes reliably. Last gen, this was easy to do, as you only had to get it up once, then just use a ghost-type to spinblock, ensuring your hazards for the whole game. However, now your hazards will be removed easily, and you have no hope of punishing that. Now, to use 'old stall', you have to have a spikes setter that can set up spikes not only reliably, but multiple times throughout the whole game. There are 4 main pokemon able to do this: Skarmory, Ferrothorn (although it has lost popularity due to the lack of rain), Deoxys-D, and Chesnaught. (note that I left out Forretress, as it has no recovery besides leftovers, making it an unreliable choice for stall) As there are only 4 available, this greatly hinders the creativity in this playstyle. Also, if the opponent manages to keep their defogger safe, you have to make sure you can get rid of it somehow. For the spiking playstyle, the most common way (at least last gen) was phazing to wear down the team. Now, in stall teams, it seems like there are nearly no phazers at all, so you have to make sure you can pressure the opposing defogger every time it comes in. Most defensive defoggers (skarmory, mandibuzz), will be threatened by electric, so keep that in mind.

As for 'xy stall', I find that they don't aim to wear down the opposing team mainly with statuses, but rather utilizing attacking moves to accomplish that. They switch in a counter, then deal damage to the switchin, wearing them down. I call this 'offensive stall'.

Basically, spikes+phazing stall has faded away, and more offensive stall is predominate right now, although I expect when the metagame settles down, spiking stall will make a comeback with the addition of the new spiker, Chesnaught.

The only issue is, currently there are so little viable spinners, because GF think defog and ignored it, and we have to pretty much stick with Tentacruel. In case you are running spike stacking, you certainly don't want defog.

On the other hand, against defog, what we know at the moment includes only Bisharp, which is HO material. And defensive solution does not exists at least for now.

So, yes, we may just adapt the blow trading game if we do want to stick with stalling. Or perhaps I should revamp my playstyle.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

The only issue is, currently there are so little viable spinners, because GF think defog and ignored it, and we have to pretty much stick with Tentacruel. In case you are running spike stacking, you certainly don't want defog.

On the other hand, against defog, what we know at the moment includes only Bisharp, which is HO material. And defensive solution does not exists at least for now.

So, yes, we may just adapt the blow trading game if we do want to stick with stalling. Or perhaps I should revamp my playstyle.

Competitive Milotic maybe? :o

 

[Photofluid]

Competitive Milotic maybe? :o

How would the +2 in SpA be utilized in defensive teams? And +2 Milotic is no where as scary as +2 Bisharp anyway.

 

[Merritt]

I feel that part of the reason status is becoming more prevalent than some of the old strategies of buffing defenses is the new crit mechanics. There's been a nerf in the amount of power that it delivers, yes, but the odds of a critical hit are much higher than they used to be. As such, since Stone Edge is still one of the most commonly used moves for coverage, and things like super luck+scope lens+high crit move or even focus energy are likely to become more common at least briefly. Burning is far more reliable, as it takes full advantage of the nerf.

Of course, in XY stall, entry hazard damage seems to be less of a focus, as stated before, so set-up teams become far more frightening. Swords Dance Garchomp is absolutely a threat, especially if you fail to run a fairy. After a single dance burn is cancelled out, essentially, and it is extremely hard to paralyze, due to its ground typing (and therefore immunity to thunder wave).

Swellow becomes a threat to any team that fails to run Heatran, as MegaSaur is not, in fact, a good check to it. Swellow also typically runs an orb and guts, and, to check the new way of playing stall, may begin to run other items and draw burns. It also can't be trapped in because of U-turn. In all honesty, all Pokemon with guts and quick feet are a problem- ursaring and granbull are both decent counters.

As always, mold breaker is an issue to ability reliant teams. And so, now, Kyurem-B becomes the answer to all the stall. The most common Pokemon that Ajwf cited are all destroyed by the Teravolting Black Kyurem. Heatran? Earth Power. Skarmory? Fusion Bolt or Ice Beam, no sturdy for you. MegaSaur? Ice Beam, and Kyurem-B don't care about your Thick Fat. Part of what makes Kyurem-B especially threatening is that it can run on an offensive hail team, causing chip damage there, and its mixed sets allow it to not care particularly about burns. In addition, Rotom-W, who is one of the better burn setters and typically runs physically defensive, can be hit by earth power. Fairy types are needed to deal with Kyurem-B, and that can be solved by the dragon forgoing a STAB dragon move and pulling an Iron Head. A stall team needs to be offensive too, or else it runs the risk of being run over.

Overall, offensive stall can be extremely useful, but it's not quite time to let go of traditional stall. Defog isn't the Arceusend that many people expected it to be, as it also removes your own hazards- part of the reason spinners are still a major part of battling. Stall, whatever way you do it, is one of the great things about competitive battling, as you can't say that you've lived until you've had a legitimate 100 turn battle.

 

[zachmac]

Of course, in XY stall, entry hazard damage seems to be less of a focus, as stated before, so set-up teams become far more frightening. Swords Dance Garchomp is absolutely a threat, especially if you fail to run a fairy. After a single dance burn is cancelled out, essentially, and it is extremely hard to paralyze, due to its ground typing (and therefore immunity to thunder wave).

And a burned +2 Garchomp is more threatening to stall then one that isn't burned how? If you speak of phazing, new stall still has that...

Swellow becomes a threat to any team that fails to run Heatran, as MegaSaur is not, in fact, a good check to it. Swellow also typically runs an orb and guts, and, to check the new way of playing stall, may begin to run other items and draw burns. It also can't be trapped in because of U-turn. In all honesty, all Pokemon with guts and quick feet are a problem- ursaring and granbull are both decent counters.

I really hope your trolling here. Swellow won't last half a second in OU, and Usaring and Granbull aren't really amazing either.

you can't say that you've lived until you've had a legitimate 100 turn battle.

Now I really hope your trolling.

I'm not even going to quote the crit "buff". There are far more reliable ways to boost your attacking powers. Life Orb, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Choice Items.