Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

[Nish the Great]

So, a team like this, plus one more mon, say a gimmora or another setter, would work wonders in the right hands?

That's not really how teambuilding works. No, espratha doesn't instawin without standard HO support. Chi-yu doesnt instawin without a somewhat decent defensive core. Gold makes balance Hstack unreal, not "any team with a Glimmora"

These mons dont ohko the entire opposing team, but by using them with a bare minimum amount of support, they become unstoppable

 

[ant4456]

Few things I disagree with, Regidrago being good into every slow fat team w/out a fairy is no longer true once you factor in tera. Specs tera steel tera blast will destroy fairies, and keeping dragon stab+dragons maw as ur ability means dragon energy is still destroying every non fairy. U also become a pure steel type with 200/50/50 bulk which is no joke. I think this mon will be far from bad once u allow it to actually break past fairies.

Glastrier will also get to change its shitty pure ice typing into smth better like pure fighting+CC or pure steel+heavy slam or hell I can see tera water/fairy being fine too. It will get to leverage its godsent stat distribution of 100/145/130/65/110/30 much more effectively with a different typing, but I'm sure it won't be as broken as others.

Volcanion under rain was already borderline impossible to switch into, throw in tera water into the mix and now it's even more disgusting. Think gastro is safe? Tera grass tera blast will catch you there too. There's honestly a solid case for this shit becoming crazy.





It's really funny that you're comparing tera blast+tera to pissweak moves like shadow claw and hp ice. Tera blast+tera ghost on a physical dragapult is a 80*2=160 base power move while shadow claw without tera is just 70*1.5=105. Likewise, tera blast+tera ice on regieleki is an 80*1.5=120 base power ice move while hidden power is just 60. Let's be real here, these are busted because tera is busted.

Espathra's in the same boat, it is laughable to think it would be broken with hidden power. Let me show you some calcs to show you the difference that tera makes:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 222-264 (88.4 - 105.1%) (tera fighting+tera blast)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 112-134 (44.6 - 53.3%) (no tera, just hidden power)

I've said it already, but espathra is MID without tera, and tera is the only factor pushing it over the edge.

I feel like a lot of these "nicher Pokemon become broke because Tera" theories have the problem of, well.

Let's assume Glastrier as Steel type is broken. I don't know really, but let's assume it. You are now running an Untiered Pokemon, a slow Mono Ice-type with good stats, but many crippling weaknesses...

So, we make a Tera Steel set. This is a good set, but two problems:

1. Switching it in is not hard per se throughout a game, but a lot of its problems competitively is switching in, taking a hit after setup or using a good move, and then likely being revenged at best.

2. You have used your Terastilization. If you do not use Terastilization on Glastrier in any given game, you are running the tier equivalent to Glaceon.

While there are many Pokemon in the metagame that are safe Terastilizations, a lot of them are on Pokemon that, arguably, are still good without it. Skeledirge has pretty good stats, and a moveset to take advantage of it. The ability to Tera Fairy moreso is a complimentary choice- Fairy checks most of what Fire doesn't, or simply isn't weak (Not weak to Ghost, Ground, Water, Dark, Rock). But Skeledirge would still be pretty good even without Tera- maybe UU or at worst RU by my opinion, though honestly as the metagame dies down, even with Tera I can see that happening.

Glastrier though? It's... not even PU by usage last gen. It's not a good Pokemon (in Singles, VGC overlords please do not skin me alive!), and to make it good (ie. in most competitive game terms, "activate it" as a part of the team) you are losing more flexibility and using up your Tera.

Do I think all of these sorts of cases will lead to a result of "Not worth it to run"? No, but not of Pokemon like Glastrier.

On your other examples: I disagree about Regidrago due to the things above (I'd rather run Wish+Pass Sylveon personally, it's actually pretty good), Volcanion is definitely a Pokemon that could be a bit much.

In general, Rain is going to be crazy with Home. Tera Water boosted Specs Ash-Greninja Hydro Pump and Volcanion is crazy.

Though honestly, Ash-Greninja would probably be banned anyways. Volcanion is a pretty good case to make.

Regieleki is going to be broken with Terastilization. Unless we all want to run Breloom/Accelerock Lycanroc/Lucario every single game, and use them super sparingly in order to not lose.

Even if Volcanion was broken by Tera, and Regieleki will be broken via Tera, as I've made clear in prior posts: I care more about mechanics than Pokemon, as long as the mechanics are good. I know you disagree with this, but just adding my opinion on that.

 

[Violet Raichu]

I am glad to hear that council discussions on terastallization are advancing.

I thought it might be worth noting, since I don't think its come up yet, that the VGC ruleset this year includes an open team sheet requirement for the first time in many years. So TPC's answer to the unpredictability of tera, in this sense, is to show on team preview, basically.

https://victoryroadvgc.com/2023-season/

Obviously our formats are very different, so we can do whatever we want with this information, including ignore it. But I thought it may still be a relevant anchor for the thread

 

[Finchinator]

Will work on posting survey results tomorrow morning when I wake up as it’s been a long day today. Stay tuned!

 

[BobKingOfSeagulls]

Even though I am in favour of keeping tera. To me, VGC having team preview indicates that nintendo believes, be it from the get go or now the game has come out, that team preview is a good option that they want to have in their competitive scene. Imo this makes team preview a vastly more reasonable approach to managing tera as it's, in a sense, an 'endorsed' strategy to managing tera in the competitive scene.

EDIT: Also I think that, while the tera type surprise factor is an element of building and play that can be interesting in the same way moveset suprises can be, it's the least interesting part and the utility and skill tera has would remain if tera types were shown on team preview as the mon you tera and when it still undecided.

 

[Wolf-X]

Seems there is people who like to ignore the fact that we surveyed the entire community and spent weeks discussing and instead focus on their self-serving narratives.

Even if this is rushed (it is not -- the community largely is on-board), then we're very open for a second test down the road.

U seem very pro Tera ban/restriction, while at the same time against a suspect ladder or similar for people to actually test it.

There has barely been any any arguments in favor of banning Tera apart from the totally subjectives ''its uncompetitive'', ''its bRoKEn'', ''It creates 50/50'' which can be somewhat argued against in various form as predictions, luck and 50/50 are deeply ingrained in the game, ''its just like Dynamax''
dont even get me started...
The amount of strong/bordeline op mons released this gen is astounishing, stuff like ChiYu is running free 2 shoting everything while the antitera keeps going circle jerk around the same arguments, insinting in a Ban or some kind of restriction.

Meanwhile more and more people seem to be pro tera. And most people agree restrictions are pointless. How long has it been? A month? And u want to ban it already?

Seems there is an interest from conservatives and players who are unwilling to adapt, or want games to be a lot more predictable and one sided, which is something Tera actually avoids, and something we should stay away from as it inavoidably centralizes and limits the meta.

Your posts seem concercing as there as some clear Anti Tera ''vibes'' coming from them instead of an objective opinion giving prove or reasons of why tera is broken.

 

[Perish Song]

There has barely been any any arguments in favor of banning Tera apart from the totally subjectives ''its uncompetitive'', ''its bRoKEn'', ''It creates 50/50'' which can be somewhat argued against in various form as predictions, luck and 50/50 are deeply ingrained in the game, ''its just like Dynamax''

Idk man, being uncompetitive, broken or unhealthy, (If convenient all 3) seem like pretty good reasons to get rid of something. Also for the love of god drop the 50/50 argument. It has been explained god knows how many times that tera forces a lot more than that, it really isnt a case of "I either pick this or that". Its not like a speed tie where you either win or lose, its a totally random element that may happen any time that instantly shift/change the tempo of the game, that may came from any Pokemon and each Pokemon comes with at least 3 or 4 viable types. This also resulting you completely changing the gameplan as you have to adapt or you outright lose because your one check died to a random tera.

 

[Soiramio3000]

please close this thread already.

the "radar" thread needs to be updated.

espathra is a very ban-worty pokemon with practically no checks and counters.

 

[Finchinator]

please close this thread already.

the "radar" thread needs to be updated.

espathra is a very ban-worty pokemon with practically no checks and counters.

We have said dozens of times we are looking at Tera before singular abusers of it. We aren’t suddenly deviating from that path.

 

[ant4456]

l

Idk man, being uncompetitive, broken or unhealthy, (If convenient all 3) seem like pretty good reasons to get rid of something. Also for the love of god drop the 50/50 argument. It has been explained god knows how many times that tera forces a lot more than that, it really isnt a case of "I either pick this or that". Its not like a speed tie where you either win or lose, its a totally random element that may happen any time that instantly shift/change the tempo of the game, that may came from any Pokemon and each Pokemon comes with at least 3 or 4 viable types. This also resulting you completely changing the gameplan as you have to adapt or you outright lose because your one check died to a random tera.

It's a mighty good thing it's not uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy then.

 

[MaskedFeraligatr]

In general, Rain is going to be crazy with Home. Tera Water boosted Specs Ash-Greninja Hydro Pump and Volcanion is crazy.

Though honestly, Ash-Greninja would probably be banned anyways. Volcanion is a pretty good case to make.

Just pointing out, Ash Greninja has been removed from the game. Battle bond gives you a (one time) quiver dance boost now.

 

[Soiramio3000]

We have said dozens of times we are looking at Tera before singular abusers of it. We aren’t suddenly deviating from that path.

she is not abusing tera, even if tera was banned she would still be broken.
the only set she needs to run is calm mind protect stored power and dazzling gleam together with the ability speed boost and becomes a monster than never needs to terastylize.

any way,will sunday be the last day where this thread stays open?

 

[Finchinator]

she is not abusing tera, even if tera was banned she would still be broken.
the only set she needs to run is calm mind protect stored power and dazzling gleam together with the ability speed boost and becomes a monster than never needs to terastylize.

This is a blatant mischaracterization. Espathra is one of the best abusers of Terastallization and its current use hinges largely on it being a prospect. Being able to Tera Fairy (or Fighting) to suddenly resist Sucker Punch or take neutral damage from Shadow Ball (among other things) is substantial. In addition, having the Fairy (or Fighting) attack and STAB boost on it is huge to get would-be checks/counters out of the way.

Saying Espathra is assuredly a problem without Terastallization is at best bad-faith theorymon and at worst outright wrong.

any way,will sunday be the last day where this thread stays open?

This thread will close whenever the suspect goes up.

 

[ApertureB]

To the people referencing the tera preview changes in vgc...this is a singles format. Things are radically different. Team preview won't change much in singles but changes more in doubles.

Tera literally breaks some current mons and expected to break future mons in a singles format so they aren't comparable. Still in favor of a tera ban because we will have to suspect test like 50 mons if it stays lol.

 

[Rikter]

Team preview won't change much in singles but changes more in doubles.

I am a horrible player and can't give great examples in pokemon specifically but in other games i've seen open sheets on what you have availible as options almost always tends to benefit the more skilled player in any given match. It probably wouldn't change much for the lower end of the ladder but at the top end it would definitely have a huge impact. Knowing what huge threats they have and the only way they can play their tera trump card on said threats would make it easier for skilled players to identify what their win and loss conditions are in every given match. If anything revealing the types would make the mechanic more competitive and if we do anything to limit tera short of an outright ban this is probably the best option we have if we care solely about making it competitive.

 

[ApertureB]

I am a horrible player and can't give great examples in pokemon specifically but in other games i've seen open sheets on what you have availible as options almost always tends to benefit the more skilled player in any given match. It probably wouldn't change much for the lower end of the ladder but at the top end it would definitely have a huge impact. Knowing what huge threats they have and the only way they can play their tera trump card on said threats would make it easier for skilled players to identify what their win and loss conditions are in every given match. If anything revealing the types would make the mechanic more competitive and if we do anything to limit tera short of an outright ban this is probably the best option we have if we care solely about making it competitive.

I was saying that the mechanic is far more uncompetitive in singles then doubles. In doubles you have common things like protect and ya know..2 pokemon. Sometimes you can beat a threat by ganging up on it and due to multi hit moves having their power lowered calcs are also different.

It 100% needs a ban in singles imo. Doubles is much easier to deal with. Just knowing a tera type won't change how many issues sweepers are causing with the mechanic.

 

[Dubbidub]

I think tera will be banned. Ultimately, it in introduces significantly more randomness than strategy to a game for which good play is dependent on prediction of your opponent's moves. VGC (and stadium singles) have tera for those who want it. Banning tera will help differentiate smogon OU from VGC.

 

[Wolf-X]

Stall is invalidated by Ape
Offense can't handle Espa
Cylce makes HO insane
Gold makes Balance hazard stack unreal
Cheese-Yu has no switch ins bar dedicated special walls that, in sun, or specs dark pulse flinches, lose

Even if/when they all go, something else will take it's place, because Terra is broken.

Non of this Pokemons are suspect worthy or crazy strong due to Tera though...
Ape ->Tera gives some defensive boost and advantages, but it isnt that popular as it already has a great typing and there are usually better options to tera
Espa ->Biggest benefitter from Tera, it still is great without it and does not need Tera at all to win games.
Cycle -> Never Teras
Gold -> Never Teras
ChiYu -> Tera is only used to add extra power to ease some KO's or 2HKOs, but it doesnt need Tera or usually use it due to it already 2hko-0hko the whole tier, specially on sun or specs sets.

Like u have 0 points against Tera lol.

At least Dragonite, Garganacl, ChienPao, Roaring Moon or Skeledridge are actually popular teras, that actually greatly benefit from it and reach new power levels. And still...
Dragonite mains strenght is shed tail (+screens) support, it isnt really that scary without the shed tail support.
Roaring Moon -> I havent had many issues with this one but aparently many people struggling to predict or check it lol.
ChienPao and Garganacl are mostly fine.
Skeledridge is a wall monster, but thats more about Unaware defensive mon with WoW and torch song.

At the very least give good arguments against Tera

 

[Finchinator]

Results of the SV OU tiering survey are up: check them out!

 

[Dubbidub]

You seriously all need to learn the definition of "random".

The less able you are to predict your opponent's moves, the more random they seem to you.

 

[kosecant]

The less able you are to predict your opponent's moves, the more random they seem to you.

Unpredictability ≠ randomness. Nothing about Tera is random, because a human is making every choice involved, from choosing what type their Pokémon should have to when they use it in a match. Literally nothing about that is random, and it’s not even all that unpredictable, at least compared to traditional tram building.

 

[ant4456]

Just pointing out, Ash Greninja has been removed from the game. Battle bond gives you a (one time) quiver dance boost now.

That's crazy what the fuck

 

[BobKingOfSeagulls]

Results of the SV OU tiering survey are up: check them out!

Checking these out it seems p clear that something will be happening to tera, but not an outright ban - which seems perfectly reasonable to me especially given that even at it's most supported ban is less than 50% and restriction is only barely above 60%. I am curious as to why team preview wasn't one of the restriction options though, did I just miss something?

 

[ant4456]

Checking these out it seems p clear that something will be happening to tera, but not an outright ban - which seems perfectly reasonable to me especially given that even at it's most supported ban is less than 50% and restriction is only barely above 60%. I am curious as to why team preview wasn't one of the restriction options though, did I just miss something?

If I didn't fudge up basic math, only 23% of the qualified vote wanted an outright ban, so it's almost certainly going to be restriction rather than the former if anything.

 

[ApertureB]

Non of this Pokemons are suspect worthy or crazy strong due to Tera though...
Ape ->Tera gives some defensive boost and advantages, but it isnt that popular as it already has a great typing and there are usually better options to tera
Espa ->Biggest benefitter from Tera, it still is great without it and does not need Tera at all to win games.
Cycle -> Never Teras
Gold -> Never Teras
ChiYu -> Tera is only used to add extra power to ease some KO's or 2HKOs, but it doesnt need Tera or usually use it due to it already 2hko-0hko the whole tier, specially on sun or specs sets.

Like u have 0 points against Tera lol.

At least Dragonite, Garganacl, ChienPao, Roaring Moon or Skeledridge are actually popular teras, that actually greatly benefit from it and reach new power levels. And still...
Dragonite mains strenght is shed tail (+screens) support, it isnt really that scary without the shed tail support.
Roaring Moon -> I havent had many issues with this one but aparently many people struggling to predict or check it lol.
ChienPao and Garganacl are mostly fine.
Skeledridge is a wall monster, but thats more about Unaware defensive mon with WoW and torch song.

At the very least give good arguments against Tera

Bro, some pokemon get near perfect coverage with tera blast and stab on moves that they shouldn't have. Due to how flexible the top mons are you can almost lose at select if you didn't bring the correct wall or whatever. It's far more of a problem on offensive oriented mons because they can just tera into a better type if needed forcing you to either bring a specific move/mon for that specific tera type. I haven't seen anyone complain about tera stall being broken because stall is dead because half of the top mons 2 shot their walls with tera coverage or stab.

Right now tera:
-Limits team-building due to how all the top mons benefit from it more then the others
-Breaks certain already good mons by giving them insane coverage and general resistances vs their main checks/counters
-WILL 100% BREAK FUTURE MONS IN HOME
-Reduces the meta to near pure offense due to the double STAB
-If the vgc preview rules aren't implemented causes the most 50/50s in pokemon history

This mechanic checks off nearly all the reasons why past mechanics are already banned. I fail to see how this is a healthy and competitive mechanic.

Like I'm not the guy you replied to but the issues with tera in singles are very apparent.