Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Cancel cult]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think Kleavor will be OU. Because I believe that Stone Axe is a worse move than Stealth Rock. It has 90% accuracy, meaning that it misses 10% of the time. If that happens, you don't get stealth rocks up. You fail to get hazards up 10% of the time, or 1 in 10 matches. Thats huge. This is Kleavors one purpose, and it fails at it 10% of the time. And all you get in return is to hit a foe decently hard on the same turn, which is nice, but not worth failing to set hazards 10% of the time. I don't think Stone Axe is nearly as good as people make it out to be. Samurott is in a similar situation.

I might as well take this opportunity to discuss where I see the other hisui mons ending up.
Decidueye will have a niche in OU as a Gholdengo counter, but will probably end up in NU.
Typhlosion is essentially identical to his normal form, and will probobly end up in RU. Is what I would say, but in natdex, Typhlosion is in OU for some reason?
Wyrdeer is garbage.
A lot of people think Ursaluna will rule OU. I don't. Its an easy target for being revenge killed by special attackers, and has a terrible matchup against Corviknight. It will still be a great wallbreaker, but not nearly as good as people expect.
Basculegion is a Houndstone that doesn't become useless the second a normal type enters the battle. Ubers.
Sneasler will destroy OU for a few days before being banned.
Overquil will Probably be a hazard setter in RU.
Electrode-H is an Electrode that can kinda do damage, meaning it will be used constantly by lower ladder players and be ranked as OU by usage, robbing it of the top tier spot in RU it could've had.
I believe Braviary has the potential to be a powerful win condition. Esper wing, tinted lens, and decent bulk and special attack makes it a very promising pokemon.
Meanwhile at Gamefreak: "So Remember Avalugg?" "That iceberg pokemon we designed to be a physical tank?" "Yeah. It's not doing well in competitive pokemon. Fortunately, we are making a regional form for the next game. How should we fix it?" "Well, we should probably fix its type. That's the main thing holding it back." "You're right. Lets make it Ice/Rock." "What, no. That's a terrible defensive typing." But it's a pretty good offensive typing. That's why we should also decrease its special defence, and increase its attack and speed..." "That's a great id-" "...by 10." "Avaluggs speed is already very slow. Just what are you planning on it outspeeding?" "Relax, its not like OU is filled with a bunch of 110+ speed pokemon. Anyways, in the next games, I want you to add a bunch of 110+ speed mon."
Lilligant will probably be an alright win condition.
Arcanine will probably be the best Rock/Fire type in pokemon history. That's not a high bar. I give it UU-RU.
Goodra looks like it will be very hard to kill. Fortunately, its best healing option is Life Dew. It will probably be a decent OU mon.
Enamorus has a few sets that all sound decent, but not too overpowering. It will be decent in OU.

 

[Pando067]

Kleavor and Samurott-H will probably be UU but they will have a niche in OU because of ceaseless edge and stone axe.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It would be in bad-faith to conduct another tera suspect without providing voters with the experience of what they're voting for.

yeah, it is kinda weird that they don't actually temp-ban the thing they're testing. i understand that entirely separate ladders are difficult to maintain because they split the playerbase, but i figure it could be done entirely on the main ladder. i just always thought it would be nice to give a test run to a post-ban meta before making the decision to remove a mon, especially since unbans are much rarer than bans. there's probably a good reason for it that someone has already explained in some tiering policy thread from ages ago but i'm too lazy to do forum archaeology right now. i vaguely recall it being different in the past but that might be the sleep deprivation talking

 

[LoseToRU?]

yeah, it is kinda weird that they don't actually temp-ban the thing they're testing. i understand that entirely separate ladders are difficult to maintain because they split the playerbase, but i figure it could be done entirely on the main ladder. i just always thought it would be nice to give a test run to a post-ban meta before making the decision to remove a mon, especially since unbans are much rarer than bans. there's probably a good reason for it that someone has already explained in some tiering policy thread from ages ago but i'm too lazy to do forum archaeology right now. i vaguely recall it being different in the past but that might be the sleep deprivation talking

Yeah at one point I'm fairly certain suspects were another ladder. Which I understand why we phased that out for testing mons. But with a mechanic, or move, or item testing, a separate ladder is the only thing that makes sense.
I also don't fully understand the "splitting the playerbase" argument. Ladder is essentially meaningless, so why does it matter if there are less people playing one or the other? Dead ladders don't seem to affect past gens and OM that much. People will play mons, no matter what. I think main ladder having 30-50% less players for a week or so isn't the end of the world and is better for everyone in the long run.

My post was getting too long, but basically we should utilize separate ladders much more. I would love to see gen 6 without para, or at least Glare banned, since the para mechanics are so egregiously broken there. Or even like gen 1 and 2 with para/frz banned. Just for fun, or to see if the game is actually simply better.
We really should have had a gen 8 ladder with boots banned, or regen banned, or whatever to test around and discover if we're playing a subpar version of a game that drastically improves with certain things banned or unbanned.

I'm not saying throw out all conventions when it comes to complex bans, but I think we've gone too conservative and dogmatic when it comes to certain policies. There are metas with complex bans and they were needed, like no sand rush on Exca, and wasn't there a gen where you couldn't have swift swimmers + drizzle? it seems we're very far from that thinking. Nowadays, we would just ban Exca itself? Not sure but something to consider. We don't need to be so adverse to complex bans and separate ladders if it makes the game better..

 

[skippergamez]

Kleavor and Samurott-H will probably be UU but they will have a niche in OU because of ceaseless edge and stone axe.

From what I can tell, I agree with Kleavor, Bug/Rock just sucks, but Stone Axe is very good. Samurott-H probably will never leave OU, do to how insane the Role Compression that Ceaseless Edge is, and how Spikes work as a move, stackable meaning that Ceaseless Edge can be clicked 3 times which allows a full set of Spikes to be set and combined with Sharpness you can probably pick up a couple of kills. Also, you have Gholdenjoe to keep them up.

 

[1LDK]

Honestly, I would love to enter the gen 7/8/9 fun/ratings discussion but every time I have to talk about gen 8 my heart starts pumping hot water instead of blood, so this is probably the only thing ill say on the matter

But on the grand scheme of things

Gen 7: Is unbalanced in every single way possible, the offensive mons are far too many and plenty. And the defensive options are way way waaaayy too unbreakable to make any sort of progress, but unironically, they balanced out in being broken, everything is broken, so nothing is kinda deal. But on both sides you have a ton of options

Gen 8: Is "balanced" in theory, yes, you could break the stall or """"""""""""""""""""""""""fat balance (that is basically the same but with a CM clef instead)"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" But the fact that you always gonna be on at least +100 to get something done EVERY match drains your soul. And offense is not rewarding, why would you wanna try something different when nothing really feels exiting, and can just be easily done by trapper heatran + scarf Kartana. Speaking of offense in SS, honestly, most of the time your counter is knock off and scald spam, which works 30% of the time (in reality is a 90%)

Gen 9: Is balanced, offensive teams currently have a ton of options that, granted, we haven't even discovered, or they are being investigated. Offensive teams can be break, defensive teams too, the only problem on both sides is Volcarona (due to the amount of cheese it needs to function) and Garganacl (The ultimate momentum killer)


And, I know that "fun" is not a concept on the policy review system, but after thinking about this, I have realized that this is the biggest black pill I have said here

"Who cares that the metagame is balanced if no one is there to play it"
This is why Gen 4 has so much success, it's a perfect mix of both, that's why gen 7, while being a failure from a policy standard, is still getting played a lot, it's fun. This is only a very personal opinion, and I'm probably not gonna continue that this could generate, but I'm gonna leave this here

Give me likes please

 

[ant4456]

You may not believe it, but I actually clarified this in my semina.. ok here



I only compare the two to show why an argument defending tera is flawed. For example:



Believe it or n...

have you considered your magnum opus is not the only valid take on the conversation, and in fact is flawed

that just because you bring up something and make a half-hearted attempt at trying to throw it to the trash, doesn't mean that there is actually something there to say

the biggest most obvious difference that you somehow didn't mention in your post is that Dynamax literally turns off opposing counterplay

in fact the list of things Dynamax pokemon are literally immune to is long enough to have an entire category on bulbapedia

which includes: Flinching, weight moves, Destiny Bond, Ability Swapping, Whirlwinding/Roar/Dragon Tail, Red Card, Disable, Curse Body, Encore, Torment, Instruct, immunity to Choice Locking abilities or items, on top of spamming moves close to Z-Move power level giving free boosts/lower enemy stats/weather and terrain; Build-A-Bear Endgame, and of course, doubling the HP of the Dynamaxed Pokemon.

Now your comparison is that a Pokemon permanently changes its type for the entire game. In your post you say this:

" It's true that you get new weaknesses but most of the time this isn't an issue because you get to DECIDE what new weaknesses you have and WHEN you have them."

This is a flawed argument. One, you don't get to decide when you have them. It's a binary choice for the entire rest of the match, and only once. You use your Tera and if you made the wrong choice, that was the wrong choice; you can't go back. Your Pokemon notably does not become immune to an entire laundry list of counterplay, and get amany free things. Terastilization doesn't even have to equate to an endgame plan, several Pokemon Tera early or midgame because they are simply supposed to.

You get toc choose... before the battle. You don't go into battle and go "ok well this beats those I take that", you need to actually know what is good for the Pokemon in general situations, which also means you can know what to generally expect a Pokemon's Tera Type to be.

"They (Tera and Dynamax) share many similarities, especially the ability for any pokemon to use them at any time holding any item. That unpredictability was a huge reason why dynamax got banned."

That is one single similarity. And Dynamax wasn't even really unpredictable, people would Dynamax their Gyarados when the check was at 60% HP and win the entire game. The opponent would bring out their attempt at a counter, and Dynamax. If they lost that then GG.

Dynamax made very linear battles that usually came down entirely to "Who used the Dynamax correctly." There are still many tournament games where the Tera on one or both sides did not really matter. Dynamax was not a possibility, it was the entire game. You activate it, get 2/3 kills, win the game or lose to the opponent's Dynamax.


"If your argument defending tera can also be used to defend dmax, it's probably not a great one because dmax was indefensible."

It can't.

You and I both know you have so many better arguments to make fun of Terastilization, actually use those and not this weird association between Tera and Dynamax. If Dynamax wasn't the only other very controversial gimmick, this wouldn't even really be a discussion.

 

[Red Raven]

Gen 8: Is "balanced" in theory, yes, you could break the stall or """"""""""""""""""""""""""fat balance (that is basically the same but with a CM clef instead)"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" But the fact that you always gonna be on at least +100 to get something done EVERY match drains your soul. And offense is not rewarding, why would you wanna try something different when nothing really feels exiting, and can just be easily done by trapper heatran + scarf Kartana. Speaking of offense in SS, honestly, most of the time your counter is knock off and scald spam, which works 30% of the time (in reality is a 90%)

Don't forget how toxic gen eight is and I mean that literally. Except for Clefable, every single pokemon would use toxic because it's so damn riskless to use. Nearly everything can learn toxic and games just devolve to endlessly clicking toxic for consecutive turns

 

[LoseToRU?]

Gen 9: Is balanced, offensive teams currently have a ton of options that, granted, we haven't even discovered, or they are being investigated. Offensive teams can be break, defensive teams too, the only problem on both sides is Volcarona (due to the amount of cheese it needs to function) and Garganacl (The ultimate momentum killer)

Don't forget how toxic gen eight is and I mean that literally. Except for Clefable, every single pokemon would use toxic because it's so damn riskless to use. Nearly everything can learn toxic and games just devolve to endlessly clicking toxic for consecutive turns

This is why I'm so adamantly anti-tera. Gen 9 is fuckin' solid. We have all the pieces needed for the best meta we've had in a decade, literally.
The QoL changes (no toxic/knock/recovery spam) the mons we have (cool ass mons fr), the fun factor- it's all there. I truly think tera is holding it back.

There's no reason this meta should be getting fun and balance scores around 5 and 6. Something is wrong and it wasn't shed tail HO teams clogging up high ladder for 2 weeks.

Gen 8 has a lot of us very hesitant to touch anything that might be fun, and in-game I'm sure tera is fun and cool, but it just doesn't fit correctly in smogon 6v6 singles OU.
Gen 9 will not be boring af, 100+ turns, no progress snooze fests without tera.
Gen 9 w/o tera could be peak mons, potential to be the best meta we've ever had.
Gen 9 is everything good about gen 7 (fun offense, faster pace) and 8 (good balance, rewards clever play) with v minimal cheese and wonky bullshit, it's just being weighed down by a mechanic designed for VGC and in-game fun for children.

 

[LunaStik]

yeah, it is kinda weird that they don't actually temp-ban the thing they're testing. i understand that entirely separate ladders are difficult to maintain because they split the playerbase, but i figure it could be done entirely on the main ladder. i just always thought it would be nice to give a test run to a post-ban meta before making the decision to remove a mon, especially since unbans are much rarer than bans. there's probably a good reason for it that someone has already explained in some tiering policy thread from ages ago but i'm too lazy to do forum archaeology right now. i vaguely recall it being different in the past but that might be the sleep deprivation talking

I think it has to do with an idea that you can’t unban something into a broken metagame. It maybe balanced with broken stuff around, or even “balance” the broken metagame, but broken checking broken is not a valid reason to have something in the metagame. So if you ban stuff later and now you have to rebam something unbanned, it just makes sense to ban first imo.

 

[JunkoAJ]

Typhlosion is essentially identical to his normal form, and will probobly end up in RU. Is what I would say, but in natdex, Typhlosion is in OU for some reason?

Meta is completely different to be fair - still has all the removed moves/items and Megas/Z-moves. It plays completely differently.

 

[Srn]

have you considered your magnum opus is not the only valid take on the conversation, and in fact is flawed

Nobody has told me why, yet. I welcome any to try.
(ofc other takes are valid btw)

the biggest most obvious difference that you somehow didn't mention in your post is that Dynamax literally turns off opposing counterplay

in fact the list of things Dynamax pokemon are literally immune to is long enough to have an entire category on bulbapedia

which includes: Flinching, weight moves, Destiny Bond, Ability Swapping, Whirlwinding/Roar/Dragon Tail, Red Card, Disable, Curse Body, Encore, Torment, Instruct, immunity to Choice Locking abilities or items, on top of spamming moves close to Z-Move power level giving free boosts/lower enemy stats/weather and terrain; Build-A-Bear Endgame, and of course, doubling the HP of the Dynamaxed Pokemon.

This is all true, but once again, I am not here to claim that tera is as bad as dmax and should thus be banned. Obviously there are differences between tera and dmax. Guess where this quote is from:
"I hope we can all agree that tera is not as bad as dmax, but tera can still be bad enough to get banned."

Now your comparison is that a Pokemon permanently changes its type for the entire game. In your post you say this:

" It's true that you get new weaknesses but most of the time this isn't an issue because you get to DECIDE what new weaknesses you have and WHEN you have them."

This is a flawed argument. One, you don't get to decide when you have them. It's a binary choice for the entire rest of the match, and only once. You use your Tera and if you made the wrong choice, that was the wrong choice; you can't go back. Your Pokemon notably does not become immune to an entire laundry list of counterplay, and get amany free things. Terastilization doesn't even have to equate to an endgame plan, several Pokemon Tera early or midgame because they are simply supposed to.

Bro just because there are restrictions on your choice, that doesn't mean there is no choice. Yes you can only tera one pokemon per match and cannot go back, but you still do get to decide who gets which new weaknesses and when. My argument is that player skill minimizes the drawbacks of tera and nothing you've said contradicts this.

You get toc choose... before the battle. You don't go into battle and go "ok well this beats those I take that", you need to actually know what is good for the Pokemon in general situations, which also means you can know what to generally expect a Pokemon's Tera Type to be.

You don't only get to choose before the battle, you actually get to choose which mon to tera for every match! This isn't like z-moves where you ride or die with your z-tbolt magearna and hope you don't run into gastrodon. You choose who can likely best use their tera and you're not locked in to any one mon.

"They (Tera and Dynamax) share many similarities, especially the ability for any pokemon to use them at any time holding any item. That unpredictability was a huge reason why dynamax got banned."

That is one single similarity. And Dynamax wasn't even really unpredictable, people would Dynamax their Gyarados when the check was at 60% HP and win the entire game. The opponent would bring out their attempt at a counter, and Dynamax. If they lost that then GG.

Dynamax made very linear battles that usually came down entirely to "Who used the Dynamax correctly." There are still many tournament games where the Tera on one or both sides did not really matter. Dynamax was not a possibility, it was the entire game. You activate it, get 2/3 kills, win the game or lose to the opponent's Dynamax.

Alright, I'll reach for another similarity: they make otherwise bad mons more viable. I don't remember the dmax meta perfectly, but I remember seeing pokemon like TR hatt, durant, and especially togekiss abuse dmax very well. Didn't see any of those for the rest of the gen.
The rest of your analysis on dmax is fairly correct.

"If your argument defending tera can also be used to defend dmax, it's probably not a great one because dmax was indefensible."

It can't.

You and I both know you have so many better arguments to make fun of Terastilization, actually use those and not this weird association between Tera and Dynamax. If Dynamax wasn't the only other very controversial gimmick, this wouldn't even really be a discussion.

I've aired out an entire novel of arguments for tera, and why they are all flawed. I do have better ways to make fun of tera, but all I see are the same bad pro-tera discussion points, so here we are. Dmax IS the other controversial gimmick, and so this will be a discussion.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think Kleavor will be OU. Because I believe that Stone Axe is a worse move than Stealth Rock. It has 90% accuracy, meaning that it misses 10% of the time. If that happens, you don't get stealth rocks up. You fail to get hazards up 10% of the time, or 1 in 10 matches. Thats huge. This is Kleavors one purpose, and it fails at it 10% of the time. And all you get in return is to hit a foe decently hard on the same turn, which is nice, but not worth failing to set hazards 10% of the time. I don't think Stone Axe is nearly as good as people make it out to be. Samurott is in a similar situation.

I might as well take this opportunity to discuss where I see the other hisui mons ending up.
Decidueye will have a niche in OU as a Gholdengo counter, but will probably end up in NU.
Typhlosion is essentially identical to his normal form, and will probobly end up in RU. Is what I would say, but in natdex, Typhlosion is in OU for some reason?
Wyrdeer is garbage.
A lot of people think Ursaluna will rule OU. I don't. Its an easy target for being revenge killed by special attackers, and has a terrible matchup against Corviknight. It will still be a great wallbreaker, but not nearly as good as people expect.
Basculegion is a Houndstone that doesn't become useless the second a normal type enters the battle. Ubers.
Sneasler will destroy OU for a few days before being banned.
Overquil will Probably be a hazard setter in RU.
Electrode-H is an Electrode that can kinda do damage, meaning it will be used constantly by lower ladder players and be ranked as OU by usage, robbing it of the top tier spot in RU it could've had.
I believe Braviary has the potential to be a powerful win condition. Esper wing, tinted lens, and decent bulk and special attack makes it a very promising pokemon.
Meanwhile at Gamefreak: "So Remember Avalugg?" "That iceberg pokemon we designed to be a physical tank?" "Yeah. It's not doing well in competitive pokemon. Fortunately, we are making a regional form for the next game. How should we fix it?" "Well, we should probably fix its type. That's the main thing holding it back." "You're right. Lets make it Ice/Rock." "What, no. That's a terrible defensive typing." But it's a pretty good offensive typing. That's why we should also decrease its special defence, and increase its attack and speed..." "That's a great id-" "...by 10." "Avaluggs speed is already very slow. Just what are you planning on it outspeeding?" "Relax, its not like OU is filled with a bunch of 110+ speed pokemon. Anyways, in the next games, I want you to add a bunch of 110+ speed mon."
Lilligant will probably be an alright win condition.
Arcanine will probably be the best Rock/Fire type in pokemon history. That's not a high bar. I give it UU-RU.
Goodra looks like it will be very hard to kill. Fortunately, its best healing option is Life Dew. It will probably be a decent OU mon.
Enamorus has a few sets that all sound decent, but not too overpowering. It will be decent in OU.

Stone Axe is a great move, especially when you look on how many flying types will return with Home, the real issue is Kleavor itself, the typing is just really bad and it isn't the best stats wise to justify it. Samurott in the other hand got a typing that gives it a decent match up against several top stuff in the meta so it can be used on different scenearios, Kleavor is most likely to be used as suicide lead and nothing else, while people have been considering that Samurrot could work with AV during mid game.

 

[CheesyBrie]

Just going to chime in with my two cents as a player who refuses to play OU to this day:
The format isn't fun, because it isn't "OU".
This format for the past three generations has been "Ubers Lite" and like all Lite beverages, they are not desirable.
Gen 8 in particular is an atrocious example of everything that could be handled poorly in a generation. I'm grateful that the council has learned at least in part from that abject failure.
Gen 9 introduced tera. It's the new gimmick, and it is FUN when it is used creatively, and miserable when used competitively.

The problem with tera is not exclusively the mechanic. It is the pokemon that use it. In every other forum, I don't see this much hate for tera. In fact, it seems to help the other tiers more than it hurts them.
That's because every other tier is healthier than OU. Look at your usage stats for the past few months and compare them to Uber.
It's the same picture. Half of the Uber pokemon are the ones rightfully banned from OU, and the others are your mainstays of this OU metagame.
Here's a list off what would be Uber based on usage stats. If you don't want to look at it, there are twelve (12) of the 34 OU Pokemon that would be Uber by usage.

Hide

1. Great Tusk 56.69% OU, #4 in Uber 33.74%
2. Kingambit 41.46% OU, #8 in Uber 18.42%
3. Iron Valiant 34.59% OU, #27 in Uber 5.33%
4. Gholdengo 26.76% OU, #20 in Uber 9.13%
6. Dragonite 22.62% OU, #24 in Uber 6.84%
8. Corviknight 18.09% OU, #13 in Uber 13.17%
12. Hatterene 15.596% OU, #21 in Uber 9.02%
14. Toxapex 14.31% OU, #19 in Uber 9.32%
15. Glimmora 12.395% OU, #16 in Uber 11.57%
16. Ting-Lu 12.175% OU, #9 in Uber 16.67%
21. Walking Wake 9.68% OU, #23 in Uber 7.20%
24. Skeledirge 9.1% OU, #26 in Uber 5.39%
26. Clodsire 8.88% OU, #12 in Uber 13.17%
34. Iron Treads 4.57% OU, #5 in Uber 29.89%

I know that Uber does contain OU's banlist (all of which are thriving up there, so DO NOT bother testing or unbanning any of them. Ever. Let them wreck up there)
I know that specifically Iron Treads is mediocre in OU and essential in Ubers (only thing that can stomach Miraidon's stab, while also utilizing the free terrain).
Another interesting note that you can ignore: Pelipper has a 7.56% usage in Uber. So rain would be gone forever.
I just wanted to make that point.
But I digress.
Dynamax was brutal, and a terrible, terrible mechanic that deserved to be banned.
Tera has a better home in a healthy competitive environment. That place is not OU.
If Tera is suspected and subsequently banned, it should only be banned from OU.
In the meantime, rather than "sit around and wait for Home", corrective actions and alternatives should be explored. This type of inactivity is one of my many problems with the Gen 8 metagame.

Try something that doesn't require a suspect test. Try implementing tera preview. We know you have the functionality. Tera donation is an entire format based around seeing the opposing tera types.
I don't ultimately care whether or not tera is banned in time, because I think it's fairly clear that I don't really like what OU looks like nowadays. I only voice these thoughts as something other players might appreciate seeing the metagame from a different perspective.

Just so this entire post isn't "how much Brie hates OU", I want to add in the GOOD I am seeing:

• The innovation of Assault Vest Toxapex is a beautiful abomination and I love it.
• Banning Shed tail and Freeing Cyclizar is the correct decision.
• Talking about Volcarona is important.
• The willingness to give Hisuian forms a real chance without discrediting them on past form performance.
• A lot of the dexit changes (knock off, toxic, etc) are what makes games more fun.
• Talking about what changes have been made over time to suspect testing and bans
• Discussing possible ways to address Tera in OU
• Nothing like last gen's 70 pages of "please ban Arena Trap"
• No hate for HDB (the only real answer to hazards is a pair of good shoes)
• The OU Council providing clarity and assessing feedback in an open conversation with the community

Thanks for taking the time to read all of this. If you actually made it to the end, I wish you a wonderful day, with lots of awesome games, great predictions, brilliant outplays, and most importantly of all: that you get to enjoy Pokemon!

 

[fiish]

In every other forum, I don't see this much hate for tera.

thats because other forums are not as active

Try something that doesn't require a suspect test. Try implementing tera preview.

that would still require a suspect

 

[Cancel cult]

how is pult not the best mon in ou? its better than most of the mons in ubers. its arguably the third best mon in the game.

 

[1LDK]

how is pult not the best mon in ou? its better than most of the mons in ubers.

Kingambit is a thing
in all styles you need a Choice Scarfer that outspeeds pult, its the norm, or youll get smashed
In defense, you can potentially stall it out once you know the set thanks to its poor bulk
in offense, you have options like pult itself, booster mons, Meowscarada

It's really fucking good and borderline problematic, but the tier has adapted standards to it

 

[Mega Breloom]

how is pult not the best mon in ou? its better than most of the mons in ubers. its arguably the third best mon in the game.

I would say Valiant is a bit better rn just because fairy is a more spamable stab than Dragon and ghost, while it also resist Gambit's sucker punch which is a big thing with Gambit being everywhere.

 

[charlieX7]

new forums drinking game: take a shot whenever someone makes an egregious logical fallacy

 

[Moyashi]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think Kleavor will be OU. Because I believe that Stone Axe is a worse move than Stealth Rock. It has 90% accuracy, meaning that it misses 10% of the time. If that happens, you don't get stealth rocks up. You fail to get hazards up 10% of the time, or 1 in 10 matches. Thats huge. This is Kleavors one purpose, and it fails at it 10% of the time. And all you get in return is to hit a foe decently hard on the same turn, which is nice, but not worth failing to set hazards 10% of the time. I don't think Stone Axe is nearly as good as people make it out to be. Samurott is in a similar situation.

You're argument is that... It's possible to miss the move and therefore that makes it worse? That's not exactly a compelling argument. You're not just hitting an opponent decently hard, your doing damage AND throwing up hazards. Compressing both is a huge huge deal, as you generate a ton of pressure in one turn. Kleavor mainly sets rocks this way but also would act as a wallbreaker on top of this. Being able to take the role of stealth rocker and open up another teammate to run another move is a big deal too. Oh and they're unblockable. This also applies to HRott. This more than compensates for the slightly lower accuracy.

 

[MilkyWay]

yeah, it is kinda weird that they don't actually temp-ban the thing they're testing. i understand that entirely separate ladders are difficult to maintain because they split the playerbase, but i figure it could be done entirely on the main ladder. i just always thought it would be nice to give a test run to a post-ban meta before making the decision to remove a mon, especially since unbans are much rarer than bans. there's probably a good reason for it that someone has already explained in some tiering policy thread from ages ago but i'm too lazy to do forum archaeology right now. i vaguely recall it being different in the past but that might be the sleep deprivation talking

I’ve been thinking the same thing. There definitely used to be a separate suspect ladder in the past with the thing in question banned and you needed to get reqs on both ladders to vote.

My proposal is that we should have the thing banned on the ladder for the first week of the suspect test and then put the ladder back to normal after that. There’s no resetting ladder ratings so if you get reqs at any point you can vote. This keeps the process of getting reqs simple and doesn’t split the player base with separate ladders, while allowing us to get an idea of what the thing banned would be like. This would be especially useful for something like seeing tera type at team preview imo

Also if anyone remembers what the issue with the two suspect ladders was and why we switched from that lmk cuz I’m curious

As a counter argument, we wouldn’t want people not voting to hypothetically ban gambit cuz they think dragapult is otherwise broken while testing out a kingambit-less suspect ladder, which is a fair point.

 

[SpritePony]

Gonna derail this for a hot second.
With Glimmora and Hazard Stacking's relative popularity, what are some reliable leads vs either Suicide Lead Glimmora (Sash, Mortal Spin + Hazards), potential Rocky Helmet Glimmora, or Lead Offensive Glimmora (usually Sashed with Rocks + 3 Attacks).

Glimmora has such a variable pool of moves that I find it to be a tad annoying to deal with. Sometimes I feel the need to Tera to bait it out and they waste it. But that isn't always the case. Of course, Boots mons that outspeed it mitigate a number of issues with it, but some sets are a bit scarier than others.

 

[pika pal]

You're argument is that... It's possible to miss the move and therefore that makes it worse? That's not exactly a compelling argument. You're not just hitting an opponent decently hard, your doing damage AND throwing up hazards. Compressing both is a huge huge deal, as you generate a ton of pressure in one turn. Kleavor mainly sets rocks this way but also would act as a wallbreaker on top of this. Being able to take the role of stealth rocker and open up another teammate to run another move is a big deal too. Oh and they're unblockable. This also applies to HRott. This more than compensates for the slightly lower accuracy.

Can concur that there's not much to complain about with the move as your rock-setting, I think the main issue is if Kleavor can even manage in OU with its iffy typing and stat distribution in tandem with each other (though granted Base 85 is a much more usable speed tier than Scizor for one stat comparison at least). It doesn't have much for moves to threaten other common lead options like Glimmora or Tusk offensively, so it feels more designed as a Wallbreaker that happens to have rock-setting on a decent move it can run. I just don't know if free rocks is enough to compete with the clusterfuck of offense OU currently has to offer, unless Bug or Rock is a particularly valuable STAB type. Part of Samurott's appeal is that you need Spikes in stacks, so you need more uses of it or Ceaseless Edge before the secondary effect becomes redundant, this on top of the other kit advantages it has.

 

[Cancel cult]

You're argument is that... It's possible to miss the move and therefore that makes it worse? That's not exactly a compelling argument. You're not just hitting an opponent decently hard, your doing damage AND throwing up hazards. Compressing both is a huge huge deal, as you generate a ton of pressure in one turn. Kleavor mainly sets rocks this way but also would act as a wallbreaker on top of this. Being able to take the role of stealth rocker and open up another teammate to run another move is a big deal too. Oh and they're unblockable. This also applies to HRott. This more than compensates for the slightly lower accuracy.

my argument is that the "role compression" sacrifises one of the most important aspects of pokemon:consistancy. its one thing to have an attack be able to miss. its another thing to have your method of hazard placement fail 10% of the time. let me put it this way. you open with kleavor, and your opponent opens with great tusk. you get hit by earthquake, but your fine. you use stone axe to set up your hazzards, and it misses. you dont get the hazards up. the next turn, your oponent uses earthquake again and you die. you now have no hazards set. if this was gen 4, you wouldve lost the game. and you think that is a fair trade for scaring volcarona? the entire purpose of this pokemon is to set up hazards and do damage at the same time, saving a move slot for another team member. so if you fail to get it up, whats your backup plan? and if you have another pokemon with stealth rocks, why are you using kleavor in the first place?

 

[Just_Aaron]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think Kleavor will be OU. Because I believe that Stone Axe is a worse move than Stealth Rock. It has 90% accuracy, meaning that it misses 10% of the time. If that happens, you don't get stealth rocks up. You fail to get hazards up 10% of the time, or 1 in 10 matches. Thats huge. This is Kleavors one purpose, and it fails at it 10% of the time. And all you get in return is to hit a foe decently hard on the same turn, which is nice, but not worth failing to set hazards 10% of the time. I don't think Stone Axe is nearly as good as people make it out to be. Samurott is in a similar situation.

I might as well take this opportunity to discuss where I see the other hisui mons ending up.
Decidueye will have a niche in OU as a Gholdengo counter, but will probably end up in NU.
Typhlosion is essentially identical to his normal form, and will probobly end up in RU. Is what I would say, but in natdex, Typhlosion is in OU for some reason?
Wyrdeer is garbage.
A lot of people think Ursaluna will rule OU. I don't. Its an easy target for being revenge killed by special attackers, and has a terrible matchup against Corviknight. It will still be a great wallbreaker, but not nearly as good as people expect.
Basculegion is a Houndstone that doesn't become useless the second a normal type enters the battle. Ubers.
Sneasler will destroy OU for a few days before being banned.
Overquil will Probably be a hazard setter in RU.
Electrode-H is an Electrode that can kinda do damage, meaning it will be used constantly by lower ladder players and be ranked as OU by usage, robbing it of the top tier spot in RU it could've had.
I believe Braviary has the potential to be a powerful win condition. Esper wing, tinted lens, and decent bulk and special attack makes it a very promising pokemon.
Meanwhile at Gamefreak: "So Remember Avalugg?" "That iceberg pokemon we designed to be a physical tank?" "Yeah. It's not doing well in competitive pokemon. Fortunately, we are making a regional form for the next game. How should we fix it?" "Well, we should probably fix its type. That's the main thing holding it back." "You're right. Lets make it Ice/Rock." "What, no. That's a terrible defensive typing." But it's a pretty good offensive typing. That's why we should also decrease its special defence, and increase its attack and speed..." "That's a great id-" "...by 10." "Avaluggs speed is already very slow. Just what are you planning on it outspeeding?" "Relax, its not like OU is filled with a bunch of 110+ speed pokemon. Anyways, in the next games, I want you to add a bunch of 110+ speed mon."
Lilligant will probably be an alright win condition.
Arcanine will probably be the best Rock/Fire type in pokemon history. That's not a high bar. I give it UU-RU.
Goodra looks like it will be very hard to kill. Fortunately, its best healing option is Life Dew. It will probably be a decent OU mon.
Enamorus has a few sets that all sound decent, but not too overpowering. It will be decent in OU.

Related to this, I made some sets for potential niches that the hisuan mons might be able to fill.
https://pokepast.es/6b4707670c4b09ef